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Teulisch
Should probably be wearing camo from the wild hunt line, with the massaging liners, and some thermal dampening. avoid muscle cramps, and stay hidden from thermo. If its at night, anti-sensor camo may be better than urban (depends on if your worried about drones and cameras). normal looking clothes under the camo suit.

Definetly need a grapple and rappelling gloves to get down quick.

How well you can hide will depend entirely on the type of roof. if its a sloped roof, you will want to have a safety line hooked to something on the roof. But in the city, you should be able to make your own cover- a metal box that looks like it belongs on the roof of that building. The barrier exists in the astral as well, and would work quite well to hide you from pesky astral mages.
Arethusa
True, your only option for stealth on the astral is to encase yourself in a container of some sort with a port for optics and listening devices. But this still has problems with portability, visual concealability, and the fact that, if you're a little suspicious, well, might as well be safe, get on the astral, and zoom on over.

Also, my girlfriend reads these forums occasionally, so I think I'm doing ok in that regard.
Munchkinslayer
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I think you'd rather your overwatcher was listening to Darwin's Bastards than starting to nod off because they've been watching absolutely nothing happen for the last six hours.

~J

No I wouldn't. If they're not professional enough to do their job for 6 hours, I'd rather not work with 'em.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Munchkinslayer)
If they're not professional enough to do their job for 6 hours, I'd rather not work with 'em.

I don't even think this is an issue of professionality. Unless you are a professional overwatcher -- an ex-sniper might be good for the job. For most people, no matter how professional (in any areas of organized crime, ie shadowrunning), being almost completely still for 6 hours, watching nothing happening, will lead to such levels of boredom as to ensure nodding off.

You can probably evade this by having just slept for a long time and ingesting massive amounts of caffeine (or some other stimulant), but this will still lead to lowered attentiveness (caused by being bored out of your mind).

Personally, I think low levels of transduced or simlinked stimuli to unimportant senses (taste, smell, touch) might be the best for the purpose.
Diesel
Echo that. Lots of sleep + caffeine/other stimulants can lead to irrational, hyperactive, twitchy behavior, especially for people who don't drink coffee compulsively. That would be baaaaad on an overwatch.
Crusher Bob
Something like a 'smell genetrator' that cycles though '10,000 different smells!, only 19.95!' might be just the thing. Not enough to distract you, be maybe enough to keep the edge off the boredom.

Rather like hunting, it not really about being able to sit still, but about being able to do the 'right thing' when something does happen without drawing attention to yourself. So wait 3 hours, take picture of car that is exposed for 10 seconds, wait 4 hours take picture of person walking into house... The waiting tends to turn your mind in on itself, which makes you slow.
Munchkinslayer
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I don't even think this is an issue of professionality. Unless you are a professional overwatcher

You don't have to be a professional overwatcher to overwatch for six hours. You just have to keep your head outta yer arse. You ain't gonna get thousand yard stare if you take your eyes outta the sight picture occasionally. You ain't gonna die of boredom in 6 hours if you look around a little. People watch, whatever. Just keep your main target-area somewhere within your visual field. Every few minutes, you break up the monotony with a few seconds of ogling. If your overwatcher has ADD or is totally unprofessional, you picked the wrong guy. Anybody else should be able to handle it for 6 hours. The taste generator is an awesome idea though.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Munchkinslayer)
Anybody else should be able to handle it for 6 hours.

Then I take it you have tried it? And I guess the platoon and company I was in suffered from horrible levels of morons and people with ADD, because the only people that managed to stay awake through those nights of laying still and watching nothing were guys like me who were so utterly freaked out by the mosquitoes that they couldn't sleep.
Munchkinslayer
Yes I've done it.
6 hours does not make multiple nights.
Yeah, your company may have sucked.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE
6 hours does not make multiple nights.

I guess this is the bit where I'm moronic, but ?
Munchkinslayer
Never meant to imply you're a moron AE. No offense intended.
Zazen
I once attended a lecture by some sleep expert guy from a hospital in manhattan (I really wish I remembered his name/position). I asked him how they actually measure sleepiness for all of the studies and statistics he was giving.

They have you lay down with nothing happening at all and tell you NOT to sleep. Normal people who are not sleep deprived will fall asleep in 15-20 minutes. People who are sleep deprived or suffer from a sleep disorder fall asleep much sooner. I think that sitting in an upright position and/or being "professional" could afford a slight lengthening of this time, but not to the tune of 6 hours.

Then again, I have sat zazen for 6+ hours without falling asleep. IMO that should be classified as "things happening", though smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
And I didn't really take it that way either, I was (unsuccessfully) trying to inquire as to the relevance of "6 hours does not make multiple nights" to the discussion.

I guess I might be talking about a rather insignificant type of overwatch, however -- the kind where it is true that absolutely nothing happens. Where it is possible that for 6 whole hours you don't see anything moving except perhaps plants in the wind, drops of rain falling and disturbing leaves or, if you're really damn lucky, some form of life scurrying on the forest floor/across the street or gliding in the night sky.

In most kinds of overwatching that shadowrunners would do, there is at least something happening. In a city there are sounds and things moving, which helps a lot. And we agree on the smell and taste thing already, so I guess we're just coming at the same thing at different angles.
Crusher Bob
Maybe something like a willpower test every hour, to pay attention?

What skills would be complementary to the willpower test, and how often should the average guy suceed?

Does this mean that trolls (lower will) tend to suck at doing these sorts of jobs?
Fortune
QUOTE (Munchkinslayer)
You ain't gonna get thousand yard stare if you take your eyes outta the sight picture occasionally. You ain't gonna die of boredom in 6 hours if you look around a little. People watch, whatever. Just keep your main target-area somewhere within your visual field. Every few minutes, you break up the monotony with a few seconds of ogling.

How is people-watching and sight-seeing any less distracting than music? One actually interferes with your stated job, while the other stimulates a sense you are not using at the time.

And before you call me a moron too, I have done this type of thing as well, with no problems.
Austere Emancipator
An Edge called Patience!

I don't know if there should be a skill to help with this... I don't see what kind of training would help. I'm not saying there is no such training, I just can't think of it.
Crusher Bob
But you can get better at it without increasing your ability to hold on to hot coals (i.e. raising willpower). maybe KS: surveillance?
Austere Emancipator
Surveillance holds so much other stuff, like knowing what would be the best spot to do it from etc. Surveillance seems a more likely candidate to be a complementary skill to Stealth or perhaps even Perception tests made during overwatch.
Munchkinslayer
QUOTE (Fortune)
How is people-watching and sight-seeing any less distracting than music? One actually interferes with your stated job, while the other stimulates a sense you are not using at the time.

And before you call me a moron too, I have done this type of thing as well, with no problems.

People-watching/sight-seeing is certainly less distracting than music cuz you look a bit to keep the thousand yard stare from creeping in, then it's back to biz. If you're just firing up some sounds intermittently for a few seconds, that would be the same thing as people-watching. But I'm interpreting "listening to music" more like: playing a full tune, bobbin' your head to the beat, and thinking "that was an interesting chord change, I'll have to practice that when I get home." A brief distraction is a good thing. A long (or all encompassing) one is bad.

And again, never meant to imply you're a moron. Just so I don't have to keep typing this, let me issue a blanket statement: NO ONE ON THIS BOARD (with the possible exception of myself) IS A MORON.
cykotek
How about an implanted solution? High end biomonitor linked to a jolt-alert system, or something similar. The biomonitor watches brain activity, and when the brain starts to slip out of a beta-wave state, you get an unignorable reminder to keep your mind on the task at hand. Perhaps tone the jolt down so it's not so mind-jarring. Then, you could listen to music or something similar, but still be able to keep focus. If you start to slip into an alpha pattern (getting really relaxed, probably not paying a lot of attention), you get a little buzz. Start drifting towards the theta wave range (getting sleepy) you get a bigger hit. If you actually fall asleep, then a full blast.

I had a sniper character who used a combination of biomonitor, jolt-alert, RAS override, and a datajacked sensor array to keep up on things like this. The RAS override was an easy way to force sleep if needed, as well as enforce complete muscle discipline if required. I had petitioned the GM for an implanted version of the muscle electro-stimulus system for extended waits. If needed, I could activate the RAS, and focus on the camera/mike inputs if I needed to stay aware, but needed to be absolutely still. Then used the biomonitor/jolt-alert combo to keep from falling to far off peak awareness.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (cykotek)
High end biomonitor linked to a jolt-alert system, or something similar. The biomonitor watches brain activity, and when the brain starts to slip out of a beta-wave state, you get an unignorable reminder to keep your mind on the task at hand. Perhaps tone the jolt down so it's not so mind-jarring.

Applying sharp pain sensations to myself is the first reaction I have to being sleepy. I use several methods, like pressing the bones on my arm against solid objects and rubbing it back and forth, pressing and pinching various parts of my body with my fingernails and, when all else fails, a bit of knifework.

It's far less effective than you'd think. When you're tired/bored enough, such things just don't matter. At least not if you know your life is not threatened.
Kagetenshi
On the other hand, I see the Jolt Alert less as a painful stimulus as a trigger to the bits of the brain what make one just wake up.

~J
toturi
I don't really have a systematic way of keeping myself alert. Here are some ways that are effective for me:

1) Bring two sets of sweets. One sweet(Mentos Strong, f*ck the sperm count), the other sour(Super Lemon, ooo, sour indifferent.gif ) Alternate...

2) Play mind games, useful in daytime. Memorise features of scenery sector by sector, not just significant features but any and everything. Paint the scene in your memory and see what you missed.

3) Stretch and move about... Only within observation posts.
Dashifen
QUOTE (kenji)
i thought a Van Eck's device depends on reading the field changes on a CRT?

ie: not LCDs or LEDs or any derivative technology... and what if it's a weird LE-Polymer display or something?

Technically, as I understand it, Van Eck's devices work by reading the faint radio signals that your computer puts out as a result of moving small electrical charges around. It's easiest to read information from a CRT only because they have a constant refresh rate and therefore, the "pulse" of the refresh rate can be found from within the rest of the radio static. So, since LCDs have a refresh rate, too, and your actually reading the "information" that's in the display buffer and not really off the screen, it should work. The hard part is detecting the radio signals from across the street and through walls.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Zazen)
Six hours is nothing, I was figuring multiple days here. It's just a matter of variety. wobble.gif

I dunno what that link is and I am NOT going to find out. eek.gif
Velocity
For long car rides (8 hours+), I've found that flossing works wonders. Don't ask me why, but for some reason a quick floss every half-hour or so perks me right up. Maybe it exercises a radically different part of the brain or maybe it's just that minty-fresh feeling I get.
Kagetenshi
Your dentist must love you.
Minty-freshness is always good for any situation, though.

~J
CoalHeart
Technically Astral sight depends on sight. So if someone is hiding behind a wall, with only thier pinky finger sticking out into plain sight. You would see just a tiny little spec of 'aura'. Not to mention backgruond count works in the stealthy person's favor.


Typically how I run it in my games for Astral Stealth is

Intelligence+ half of Aura Reading vs Stealth roll + Cover modification + Background Count - Initiate grade

Half of aura reading because if you do notice that pinky finger you can potentially get a read of the feelings of the person who owns the finger. Also Initiates are more accustomed to scanning the astral (for balance)


Personal Kit suggestions for overwatch:

Surveilance gear.
Snacks/Rations/Drinks
LongHaul + Sleep Regulator + Jolt Alert (Nothing better then not being able to sleep for 4 days)
Weapon or 2 just in case.
Stealth Gear (Ruth, Thermal damp camo) Or an invisibility spell.
Comlink
and a police or radio scanner to listen into building or security forces moving in on you incase they spotted you and you didn't notice earlier.
High willpower
Plastic bags for personal waste elimination. (Incase you can't leave your post ever)
LoseAsDirected
Why not just load him up on designer drugs? LongHaul works wonders, and there's minimal side effects if you only take one dose, which would be more than adequate for the job at hand.
Arethusa
I'd like to remind you, though, that astral projection makes it impossible for you to hide. And more importantly, astral removes all benefits of real cover, lighting, camouflage, etc, and since that little finger is going to be glowing, it's a bit less inconspicuous than it would be otherwise If you include stealth rolls in astral perception tests, that's nice, but it's unfortunately very, very, very non canon. Per canon SR3 rules, astral does a lot more damage to the entire game than I think was ever intended.
LoseAsDirected
So don't use the canon rules?

Honestly... what's the big deal? If you don't like it, change it..
lodestar
I would just have to go with a rigger for overwatch duties sice the sensor suite of a lot of drones can be upgraded to make them excellent observers. Not to mention drones have no astral signature. While one might think that drones might be quite noticable, witha R/C conversion any vehicle can become a drone. That car parked on the street for instance. The surveillance can also be quickly moved to follow the target and provide for multi POV. Have a drone nearby concealed for firepower or maybe a few passerbys rigged up with the Snake eyes system. The controlling rigger is also safely out of harms way, and aside from possibly needing a catheter, is kept more than busy by the sensory input.
Kagetenshi
That, in my mind, is why Lone Star Strato-9s rock; the MMG that you can't get any other way at chargen is just icing on the cake. Their real strong point is the rating 5 sensors that each and every one of them packs.

~J
nezumi
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jan 12 2004, 04:08 PM)
And more importantly, astral removes all benefits of real cover, lighting, camouflage, etc, and since that little finger is going to be glowing, it's a bit less inconspicuous than it would be otherwise

Yes, but everything else is glowing as well. Yes, everything, especially the air (read the first few lines describing the astral). So granted, a glowing pinky would be easy to see in the normal world, but it won't be so easy to find when surrounded by neon lights. It certainly won't be easy to spot at 400 yards on top of a roof. Half of stealth isn't 'I make myself invisible so I can walk where I like', it's putting yourself in places where people wouldn't think to look, so even if you were wearing a bright orange jumpsuit they're unlikely to notice you. Don't forget your mages don't have 360 degree vision. They're just like me; the guy who drove to within 10 feet of a car accident and didn't notice it just last night. I'm also missing why you say stealth roles vs. astral is not at all canon. I seem to recollect reading in Corporate Security that it's actually quite canon (with some appropriate modifiers for 'keeping astral in mind').

Some other thoughts... You could hide in a pup tent. It's low to the ground and pretty small. Or you could have your portable ventilation shaft disguise (a metal box with covered slits. Either blocks LOS, so astral doesn't work anyway, and it's not hard to watch the cameras, peek in and out or otherwise do what needs to be done.
Fortune
QUOTE (Munchkinslayer)
And again, never meant to imply you're a moron.

It's cool. Sorry about the accusation. I was in a semi-crap mood when I posted yesterday.

I still disagree with your comparison though. I see nothing wrong with having tunes in the background, at least no more so than any visual distraction. Note that I'm not advocating bopping along, or whipping out your trusty flute and playing fifths. As to visual distractions, if you are supposed to be watching something, yet keep letting your eyes do the walking at every piece of eye-candy that legs past, even for a second or two, you may very well miss what you are watching for.
Diesel
It's all good.
Siege
A knowledge skill: Surveillance or even Alertness isn't a bad idea.

A number of professions will teach you how to notice things, what to look for and so on.

-Siege
Dingus_McGee
Alertness is already a specialization of Stealth, it's used to counter NPC's using Stealth to hide from PC's. I think it's in the main book under Stealth.....in teh Skills section.

I would say if your character has Alertness, roll against their own Willpower and they can remain vigialnt for (success) hours before needing to re-roll again. Successes would be limited by the level in the skill they possessed. And I would NOT allow a -1 to TN because they are using Alertness to stay focused instead of simply trying to spot hidden people/items.

At least, that's how I would do it in my games. YMMV, people. biggrin.gif
Siege
I have an entire rant about Alertness as a specialization of Stealth.

Go for KS: Keeping Watch or "Surveillance techniques" -- it bugs me less. grinbig.gif

-Siege
gknoy
QUOTE (Dingus_McGee)
I would say if your character has Alertness, roll against their own Willpower and they can remain vigialnt for (success) hours before needing to re-roll again.

That seems backwards ...

Wouldn't a person with an iron will be better able to stay focused, than someone with a low will? I'm picturing a sniper as opposed to a guy with serious ADD or something. smile.gif

What about a TN of 6-Willpower, or something? (I originally said 8-WP, hehe... )
Rev
I had a sniper charachter long ago, and made up a two point edge called boredom resistant or something like that. Basically he could sit up on a building all day without spacing out waiting for somone to walk through a door.

One could also just have the charachter roll both int and wil for a perception test to watch over something for a long time, using the lowest result to see if they notice whatever it is there is to notice.

I would be inclined to make up something seat of the pants if it really mattered. Every hour roll willpower vs 4, if you fail your perception t#'s go up by one.
Fortune
QUOTE (gknoy @ Jan 14 2004, 12:17 PM)
What about a TN of 6-Willpower, or something? (I originally said 8-WP, hehe... )

8, or even 10 minus Willpower is better.

As far as Edges go that could relate to this subject, Focused Concentration could be adapted to fit right in.
Nova
QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer)
Sometimes it's good not to be a 7' monster with more cyberware than bones.

Kong

Wuzzat supposed to mean?

'sides I'm only 6'3"

Nova
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