It sound more along the lines of Twisted/Blood Magic than Toxic, but it's definitively on the "frowned upon" side of the fence...

I think there are two fences that run perpendicular to each other.

In the first quadrant you have normal magic. In the second you have your corrupt/evil magic (toxic). In the fourth you have your crazy/twisted magic (blood). And in the third, across both fences you have crazy evil magic (toxic blood).

Near as I can tell, there are no stricutures in RAW against the following actions. Comment, please.

1) A Free Spirit PC Calling (As per Running Wild) a Wild Spirit or another Free Spirit, and bargaining with them as any other PC might.

2) One Free Spirit entering into a Spirit Pact with another Free Spirit. Obviously, neither of them would be all that interested in giving up Karma, but some Pacts allow the sharing of Powers.

So I have a question and it seems like this is the right thread to ask it in.

Say I have access to Task Spirits. Under their optional powers they have this little gem:



So say I also get the Ally Spirit Metamagic and work up a formula for a Spirit with say, 5 force. Enough for 5 powers.

I then pick the following skills as powers: Computer, Cybercombat, Datasearch, Hacking and Software. Can I then make it inhabit a specially prepared comlink vessel (that results in a hybrid form merge) and effectively gain a hacker as my ally spirit?

Hybrid form merge says:



I mean, the implication is it can operate tech just fine.

This is an extremely cool idea. The only problem I can see is if the GM points out that a commlink by itself has no neural connection. A Hybrid merge uses a DNI. If no DNI exists, then maybe the Inhabiting spirit can't access the machinery.

Alright, so lets assume that a DNI is needed.

How much essence does a cat have. Lets Cyber this Cat Up.



-edit-

Why am I thinking so small? Obviously we can jump strait to a chimpanzee and make an actual grease monkey. Give it some mechanic's skills as well. Although I still prefer the idea of a comlink without all the animals. I guess if needed we could always go through an intermediary like an animal but it seems a silly restriction when it can be "sidestepped" so easilly.

Also bwahahaha, I just invented SR's Code Monkey!

-edit 2-

Also, good on the game designers giving the cat an edge maximum of 9. So Win.

I'm a few steps ahead of you still. I've done that with cyber/bio warform dogs. For just under 2k nuyen you can get something far, far more dangerous than a hellhound. Alternatively you can use a Type-O Clonal human with a datajack (for a cool 25.5k) Inhabited with a spirit and have a fairly strong "ally," insomuch as you Bind it/Negotiate with it.

It should be noted that the special attributes of the spirit overwrite those of the vessel: IE - you get a living body, dump in 5.5 points of cyber/bio, then have it inhabited by a F4 spirit and it now has a 4 Essence.

Yes today I was looking at biodrones for this purpose. Remove that bit of tech that lets a hacker jump into the biodrone and you have a narsty ally. A bit expensive for the upper ones though.

-edit-

This brings up a question I've been wondering, to what extent should your ally spirit be another character under your control. Aside from spending edge, it seems like everything would be fair game. Im a bit leery of this coming from D&D 3.5 where Leadership feats and Cohorts are so ubiquitous.

Depends on how much bio/cyber you want in them. If you aim for a hybrid-form merge, the benefits from that alone replicate most cyber/bio you'd want. It increases all their physical attributes, removing the need for Reflex Enhancers, Muscle Augmentation/Replacement/Toner, and Suprathyroid Gland; it gives them 2 IP (IIRC), removing the need for any Init-Pass-enhancing things unless you want more (and then you have to look at cost-effectiveness...); and gives them ItNW, removing the need for most of the way-too-expensive implant armors out there.

From my archives...:

Spirit Dog


EDIT: That is with the absolute minimum spirit powers, or to put it another way, as if the spirit in question is a blank template. Not a fire/air/water/ect/ect - just the bare minimum of spirit powers.

It exists in 4E as well, I've discovered. There's a class that at level 12 gets a mind-raped cohort-slave.* It's like an animal companion....

*Name of class escapes me at the moment.

Is a Hybrid Form the ONLY one that can use DNI? Wouldn't a Flesh Form allow fully functioning use of cyberware and DNI as well - or is that the point of a Hybrid (gets the best of both worlds)?

- J.

Ally spirits have hardwired loyalty coding and they have unlimited Services.

You CAN piss them off (forcing them to take drain for your spells is spelled out as doing that.)

At heart, they are NPCs, which means the gm has kind of a final say over how they work.
I would say it depends on the game: Who controls your regular summoned non-ally spirits?


The most interesting thing I've come up with recently for ally spirits is Initiations, actually. They are full Magicians. You can use rituals to transfer karma to spirits(1 hour per point), so it is entirely possible to Initiate your ally spirit, even if you are giving up a big chunk of karma to do it. Another possibility is having Initiatory Groups with your own spirits. It has some nice benefits aside from the Initiation discount - bringing your allies along on astral quests is pretty awesome, and frankly kind of makes sense that a mage would be able to get greater understanding of the astral by having help from the other side. Worth noting: there is a minimum # of members you need to take advantage of discounts(Sm 67), so you basically need multiple ally spirits to pull it off, and that much karma is basically not in the realm of player characters.

But it is useful. I've considered making Possession ally spirits that come WITH channeling, for example. The spirit is able to choose to give their host a bit more control. Its nice if you're playing a teambuffy mage, because you can make someone awesome without taking control away and making them an unfun-to-play-puppet.

The biggest abuse of this is with the optional rule for learning metamagic outside of initiation from a tutor. Spirits that know a metamagic technique can teach it to someone else just like a metahuman tutor can, with the specific exception that the karma is paid to the spirit directly in exchange for their services.
If you're allowed to do this, and able to find willing students for simple metamagics, and able to give up the initial investment of karma to initiate your ally(13), then it can help defray the costs for improving your ally spirits a LOT.(15 if you succeed at teaching.)

This part confuses me a bit. Channeling allows the magician with that metamagic to be possessed yet retain control of the combined entity. I don't see how the spirit having this metamagic could transfer it to the vessel unless the spirit had Endowment.

There might be a bit of handwavium involved with that one. That kind of thing is probably in the realm of Spirit Pacts to be honest - or just a flat transfer of 'if at least one of the merged entities has the knowledge of channeling, it works'


Endowment can't transfer a metamagic anyway.

A spirit shouldn't even be able to *get* Channeling (or any summoning-related anything), but we see how smart they are about writing prereqs.

I very much dislike the rule, that free spirits are unable to summon normal spirits of their tradition...
A demon needs to summon lesser demons. (Yeah, I know they actually could summon higher once, which would just suck... But that generally sucks... Also with mages...)

So be a Shedim or Insect mother.

Sorry to ruin all the fun, but Ally Spirits cannot initiate.

Free Spirits may do it, though.
But I like the thread being on the front page again

This is something which is, in this case, illegal. But comes up with free spirits.
"So I have 3 different powerpacts and I know a bunch of mages (group connection!). May I have a spirit pact with each? 5 uses of one of those powers and I get one Karma?
So hundred mages, everyone will use my powers 10 times a month, giving me 200 Karma a month, so 6.66 Karma a day." (And yes, the month has 30 days if I get to end up on 666, but low ball it to 6)"
The fun starts if the players have downtime of a month to learn their skills...
The problem is, that 1-2 Karma a month is really nothing for the power a spiritpact can give you. (The uses alone will probably earn you more karma...)
But 100 times 1 or 2 Karma...
If the richest 20% of earth all give you one dollar, it is not much for them and they won't notice. But you will...

Not a very fun way to play the game, of course. Yeah, I've definitely seen some 'pranks with spirit pacts' threads.

The fact that there are no known instances of this in the canon implies a Great Filter effect; either they are instantly destroyed by the Powers that Be, or they transcend like Buddha and *become* those aloof powers. Either way, problem solved: gods in their heavens and all's right with the world.

@Yerameyahu
Well, thats why there are so little christian tradition free spirits around. They had just to many "followers".

This is one of those points, where I suspect they tried to keep players "small" by just making the "playerpower" a freaking joke.
Just let the player gain karma with the formula pact (like a normal metahuman) and make it exclusive. (And since NPCs are bound by rules beyond the book, they do not matter...)

Its not Illegal. Its just potentially broken if it gets out of hand.


A good GM, i feel, would let a free spirit with a means of gaining karma earn roughly the same amount as the players do. Anything more will only contribute to party imbalance.

A good example is a free spirit with a friendship pact who ALSO teaches metamagics for karma. They earn regular karma, AND bonus karma.

Yeah, the Friendship Pact is great for keeping the PC Free Spirit in step with the other PCs, but after playing a FSPC for a while with that Pact, I have come to realize how little sense it makes. My immortal PC is now tied to the lifespan of some humans and an ork!

Fuck.

So the PC now has another Spirit Pact which I hope will give her the karma to build a meteoric life, if not a long one.

@Udoshi
Giving a ally spirit karma by learning having it teach Metamagic techniques to NPCs is against RAW. Neither can ally spirits have pacts nor can they learn Metamagic.



You can as an PC-free spirit only get karma due to spirit pacts. True you can actually go around the street and give every squatter 3k for one Point of Karma. Combine this with "no need for sleep" and you get a lot of Karma. Additional the spirit pacts etc. But as the rules for PC-Freespirits go, only spirit pacts are legal.


The point is: If the free spirit has a friendship pact, it gets this amount of Karma. If it takes an additional pact, it gets more Karma. And so on.
(Not to mention you can cancel any pact at any time and so get around the penalty of the friendship pact...)

Thats why I said: Give free spirits a formula pact which allows them to earn Karma as Metahuman, but make it exclusive.
Because to say: Well, you way of earning Karma comes with a lot of drawbacks and micromanagement, but I do not allow you the other ways... Is kind of a dick move.

damnit! I THOUGHT I checked that section before I posted that.

Good catch! Well done.


However the exploit/trick still works, you can teach them metamagics outside of initiation for the same cost, and then make it back later. They ARE full Magicians, even if they can't initiate.

@Udoshi
You need to be initiated to learn a metamagic technique...

And you can only learn metamagic techniques from FREE SPIRITS.



The key word here is in addition.
This means you need to have A to get be additionally.

Just so you know, I already covered that. The whole thing relies on the gm using optional rules

@Udoshi
Still does not work for ally spirits by RAW.

And ally spirts can't spend karma to begin with...

In the case of the friendship pact, death of the metahuman partner leads to the loss of Force on the part of the spirit. So in the case of my FSPC, her plan now that she understands what she has done is to earn extra karma through the second spirit pact to allow her to grow Force back as her short-lived friends die*, and either just not make new pact-friends or make sure they are elves or something else that doesn't die in a trice.

*Most of them belong to a street gang clearing out turf in LA. Either human or ork. They took her in when she first became free, and she bonded with some of the original members. But their life expectancy as gang members in a tough neighbourhood is pretty short.

You could get some FSPC powers (via that karma) that let you buff up your metahuman pact mates so they are more survivable. One of them is Immunity to Age IIRC.

@darthmord
Thats the formula pact. This pact makes the metahuman carrying your formula immortal... But he or she can be used against you.
Like I said: The best way to balance free spirits is to give them karma like the rest of the group without hitting them over the head for it. (And prevent them getting more Karma per hour than the rest gets for a run...)

You'd think Flesh could, but Hybrid is the only one that has it spelled out. I'd think that an "ability" of a Flesh merge would be the ability to use DNI, but Hybrid merges are the only ones that specifically mention it.


That is why they use the Calling rules and have Leadership.

Not strictly true. They don't EARN any.

If they manage to get some, then its karma. Everyone gets to use it the same way.

You can intentionally transfer karma to a spirit through a specific ritual. The best actual use of it is to give your ally spirit a handful of karma to pick up Specializations. Its 5 to give them a new skill at Force, but two points to enhance one they have already.

Theoretically you could teach them Qualities if you really really desired and had gobs of karma to piss away, but the list of those is fairly low - though martial arts does come to mind.

@Udoshi

Read: Enhancing ally spirit. To enhance your ally spirit, the mage needs to manipulate the formula and spend karma. There is NO other way mentioned in the book.

NO, you can't.

No, you can't.



At NO point what so ever do you transfer Karma to the spirit. Everything new the spirit can do, has to be written down in the ally spirit formula. And the things which can be written down in the formula are quite restricted.

@Neraph
What rules are you refering to? The rules of calling other free spirits?

Udoshi you are confusing the rules with Free Spirits and Ally Spirits. I wish it worked that way. I might be able to justify learning powers for my ally spirit outside what I could summon if it did. Alas, it is not to be...



That was my reading but I was hoping you'd tell me different.

-J.

... Yes, which is why I said the Calling rules.

Dear gods - and I though the Dikoted ally spirit motorbike/sword/stripper ninja that you could have sex with was a bad path to follow....

-Tir
"Spirits...ally spirits, the debate never changes..."

Nice to know I've impressed someone else.

This thread was linked in a more recent thread, so sorry for the necromancy...

1st, I do not see where it says you can take a group contact for the Pact. It seems limited to a number of participants equal to Force. It further goes on to state that if Force should increase, another participant must be added within 24 hours and if a participant dies, Force and natural attribute ratings get reduced. So I do not see how one could get a group of 20-99.
2nd, I do not see where the FSPC is getting 1 Karma/day/member. All I can assume is this is payment derived from other Pacts offered to the group, but I do not see the point. I am guessing you are using the rule that the Friendship Pact does not require those on the other end of the Pact to buy the Spirit Pact Quality, but all the Pacts except Friendship require "the person with whom the spirit has the pact must have the Spirit Pact quality."

The idea of taking a magic group as a contact and offering spirit pacts to the members (as well as teaching metamagics in the future to several students at once) is still viable, but each member will need the Spirit Pact Quality and as NPCs, the GM controls them.

All Spirit Pacts are for life with the exception of the Power Pact which is for 24 hours.

The big benefit of the Friendship Pact (besides not requiring the the non-spirit member to have the Spirit Pact Quality) is it allows the FSPC to earn karma normally (like PCs.)

The group contact is not the total pool for the Spirit Pact, but rather a willing pool of "applicants" for it. You don't have all 20-99 people in the pact automatically, but you have 20-99 people willing for you to choose from.

EDIT: You have to forgive me from 6 years ago. I've learned some things since. The concept is still viable and everything, just maybe not necessarily the rate at which you get karma.

Ok, I liked the idea, I just did not understand how you were getting that huge karma machine.

Taking the magic group as a contact and as the the set that the friendship pact is chosen from makes more sense than choosing the fellow runners for the pact. Hopefully it is an initiatory or learning magic group that lives a safer life. Maybe offer the friendship pact to some wealthy magicians who will get Leoniation treatments - even have the spirit pay for them down the road, lol.

The other benefit of the magic group contact is lots of potential people for other pacts and students for teaching metamagics. With a large enough group and several pacts with several members and the karma machine can get rolling.

I have two NPC free spirits that just pay people for karma as they lack pacts. Inspired by this forum to a degree. One is a talismonger with human form- so changes appearance with plenty of ready cash to bargain with.
The other is a combat plastisteel hormonculus in a EVo subsid. Basically got corp citizenship and a wage from a 24 hour a day sec job/ research teaching job with one day off a month for large karma down load..
Hi arcology populace, give me some of your memories for high cash compensation- your friendly security FreeSpirit.

Trust as a factor is actually easier for the Evo FS being corp sponsored. Damn Corpers always have it eaiser.

Another npc FS is an ex ally and is Machiavellian in in the number and quantities of karma grifted from those around him, while they think he is helping. Sentient flesh form cat in action.

I prefer blood spirits - just rip the karma from their still warm chest cavities.

Blood spirits tend to get shot at more often.
Of course, from their perspective, attracting enemy combatants isn't necessarily a bad thing.