Are SR's HEDP grenades anything like real life HEDP 40mm rounds? Because, if so, you'll be punching right through that fence and possibly doing nothing more than burning a small hole through it.

... brain is not working today.... what does HEDP stand for anyway...

-Mike R.

There are no HEDP grenades in SR that I'm aware of, I was just making it up. If there were hand grenades with spikes to stick into targets with, there sure as hell should be impact detonated HEDP hand grenades as well. But if a RL 40mm HEDP grenade has a kill radius of 5 meters, I'm partial to think it would do more than burn a small hole into a wooden fence.

HEDP = High Explosive, Dual Purpose

The reason I point it out is because the Dual Purpose comes from the fact that grenade is both anti personnel and armor piercing; current 40mm (40x46mmR for those who want to nitpick) HEDP grenades can penetrate two inches of steel armor before detonating, and using these on a wooden fence would net you one punctured fence and a 5m casualty radius somewhere in the distance. Incidentally, 40mm grenades are not really as potent as a lot of reading would have you believe. The US military's M67s use roughly five times the explosive and are considerably more capable of fragmentation (considering the larger size and frangible composition); 40mm grenades do not have a kill radius of 5m, but rather a casualty radius at that distance. I have no doubt that they can hurt people beyond that and kill people within it, but they are not the gargantuan explosive weapons many people believe them to be,

I know how big (small) they are, and I know M433s certainly aren't as effective against personnel M67s, but I also think that an average wooden fence will have a hard time handling the kind of pressure the M433 causes right around itself when it goes off. In fact, I'm pretty sure the actual hole created in your average wooden fence by a detonating M433 will be rather sizeable. Depending on the thickness, 1' diameter wouldn't be that surprising. If the fence is flimsy, it might blow off entirely from above the grenade and 1' away to either side and under. Also, I was actually talking about a hand grenade, and one of those is likely to be a lot bigger than a 40mm round. And in any case, I think it's clear that the fence would get it's ass kicked.

My description was more than somewhat off (sorry, bit tired, at this point), though the M406 is probably what you're thinking of, behaviorially. It's the basic HE model, and explodes when it hits something that provides sufficient resistance (not a screen door or a window) and explodes, spewing shrapnel all over the place. The M433 HEDP is essentially a mini shaped charge (same concept as the AT4, RPG7, etc) that's fired just as you would a standard M406 HE round from, say, an M203 grenade launcher. In this case, the HEDP grenade, unlike the HE variety, will burn through at least 5cm of steel plate on impact and throw hot gas and shrapnel around on the other side (also, pinballl effect, etc). It's main intended use is penetrating light armor and bunkered positions.

In the fence example, you'd likely get a burnt section of fence along with a large burnt section of post-fence area, but not much damage to the fence itself. You'd be better off with an M406 or M386 for your anti fence warfare needs.

And the DoD is either misstating or lying when it claims a kill radius of 5m for a HE 40mm grenade. They'll incapacitate everything in 5m and maybe kill some of it, but they do not have the 5m guaranteed kill radius of an M67. I recall one field description of the M203 as capable of wounding half the people in a 6m radius and killing maybe 10%. Not exactly scientific, but not something I'd discount, either.

Actually, nezumi, these are 40mm pressure launched grenades of the type most often seen loaded underneath rifles (if you've seen Black Hawk Down, for instance, a lot of M16s are seen sporting tube like weapons underneath the foregrips; these are M203 grenade launchers). Though yes, you have a point about grenades puncturing fences without detonating; depending on teh materials, it is quite possible for the round to not detonate and simply punch through before detonating on the ground, in which case the M433 would do even less damage, as the shaped charge would just burn up a bunch of mud. It's rather unlikely that a hand grenade would penetrate a wooden slat fence, however.

Effective kill radius -- as likely to be killed as not, but not a guaranteed frag. (sorry, inner geek showing)

-Siege

For an idea of what I'm talking about, take a Panzerwurfmine and divide it by 2. A 250g shaped charge with a good fragmentation effect should be quite capable of kicking a fence's ass, as well as most those of most cybertrolls.

I still think you are slightly overrating the average wooden fence, Arethusa. Shrapnel capable of severely wounding a human being should rip apart such a fence quite well, or at least more so than the average thrown knife. Overpressure capable of hurting a human being will be really effective against light wood. As pathetic as an M433 might be, I just can't see a volley of them being fired at a wooden fence, and the only result being a few 4" burnt holes (assuming they go off).

I think the issue is whether or not the fence is a solid enough object to cause the detonation of an impact-only weapon.

-Siege

It certainly is solid enough to cause the detonation of an impact-only hand grenade -- there'd be little point in making the detonator less sensitive if the wooden fence would stop it anyway. As for the probability of detonation for a 40mm LV grenade, I think it has been discussed far enough, unless someone who actually knows exactly what kind of barriers such a (factory-setting) grenade will penetrate without detonation and what it will not.

I think we're talking about two different strength wooden fences. What I had in mind for the grenade penetrating without detonation is just a cheap wooden slat fence (that can't even withstand a solid kick) or a chain link fence with wooden slats, assuming it hits the thin sheets of pressed wood and not any metal. Anything heavier, and yes, you are pretty much guaranteed a detonation. Still, with the M433 (my apologies for my first description; I was tired and mixed up the M386 and M433 in my head, the former of which has a smaller charge that detonates before the main charge), you wouldn't necessarily kick the ass of that fence, as almost all of the explosive force would be directed away from it. To realy kick that fence's ass, I'd suggest a plain HE round (such as the M406).

And yes, a solid hit on a human (or, I guess, metahuman) target with a HEDP grenade is a guaranteed kill, barring freak luck, but grenades of this type were never designed to be fired directly at human targets. The whole point was indirect fire, after all, and something like a HEDP round is meant for popping bunkers and lightly armored positions, not lightly armored people (though, with SR's psychotic armor system, there is room for reinterpretation of the use of such weapons). That said, firing a HEDP round into a group of people will net you, at best, a couple of very minor casualties, as the brunt of the explosion will be directed into the ground and away from any possible targets. Same thing that makes something like a bazooka, panzerfaust, or AT4 a terrible anti-personnel weapon, really.

An amusssing thread this. Keep talking like this and the fence's will go out and themselfs titanuim lacing and body armour.

But going back to the throwing of a grenade at someones head, without the optional rules your more likly to take someone out by throw the grenade at them (Dstun) then it going off.

Frag, with the amount of firepower that seems to litter the streets, I wouldn't be surprised to see a reasonable market in pre-fab, kevlar reinforced fencing panels to be deployed like pre-fab defenses in the civilian market.

-Siege

To stop stray shots from ruining your rose bushes? Or to stop punk kids from kicking your fence's ass with assorted grenades?

I could be massively confused here (and likely am), but how would a hand-thrown HEDP grenade work? Didn't you say the HEDP had a shaped charge? How would you ensure the shaped charge faced the target on impact andohmygodI'madumbass. You shape the whole thing like a knife . Methinks I get it now...

haha, right. and you're going to be SOL when you misjudge your throw, and the damn thing hits butt-first. now, if you shaped it like a dart...

Well, just don't shape it like a Boomerang...

Well, I did link to a page explaining that bit and referred to it repeatedly. But nobody seemed to notice, here it is again: The German WWII Panzerwurfmine.

With 2060s technology, it would be damn easy. It would NOT look like a knife, because we want a 99.9% of it hitting with the right side, not 75% or even 90%. A dart is much closer.