Most objects are made of a multitude of materials, and according to RAW only that which is in line of sight can be affected. If you want to make a hole into a wall would you need besides shape concrete shape steel, shape wallpaper and shape plasterboard or shape wood depending on what the surface and the layers below are made of?

Would a Shape Living Tissue be possible (I admit I was thinking about Tzimisce)? Would Shape Wood affect a tree?

The line of sight rules are kinda fungable. You can target a guy in Heavy Military Armour but not a Cyborg. I think most people are happy to ignore them in these edge cases.

If you can see an object and it contains a significant amount of the Material in question then it is a legitimate target.

It's the actual rules about how much of a material you can effect and how quickly it can be moved that need clarification.

In a traditionally built house? I'd say yes. Easier just to go through the glass door or window (see below).

Just me, but I'd say no. There is always a division between objects and lifeforms and this spell seems to be an object spell to me.

Living tree? No. Dead tree? Yes.

Other possible uses for such related spells:

Shape Metal (depending on how specific your GM requires you to define your materials) could be used to reform a stop sign into a improvised edged weapon.

Shape Concrete could be used to open and close an access point into the Ork underground from an underground parking garage without leaving a permanent opening or (physical) trace of passage.

Shape Glass could also be used to transform bottles or plate glass windows into improvised weapons. Could also be used to gain entry into a building through the windows without leaving a (physical) trace.

Shape Earth could be used to dig holes or tunnels in solid earth or stone very quickly without the need of explosives (need an underground kingdom anyone?) could also be used to make stone furniture or statues.

Shape Asphalt could be used to create traffic hazards on paved roads (big potholes adjacent to a new 24" curb anyone?)

Shape Plastic, Shape Concrete, Shape Metal, & Shape Glass could be used to ease recycling efforts.

Shape Water could be used to drown enemies (anyone seen Harry Potter?) or pull a Moses on a river or lake.

Shape Fire might be used in fire control or to contain forest fires.

Shape Wood might be used to make very detailed furniture without the need of cutting, screwing, glueing or sanding the wood.

This is pretty clear. You can affect anything of the material within the spell's area. If you could see everything this would be (4/3)*π*Force³ m³. You can move the material with a speed of (net hits) m per turn, but at the GM's discretion you first have to reduce the material's structure.

Definitely possible in my opinion as well

Only if there is no steel mesh in the concrete, which is standard for such buildings

For normal windows this is correct, but already a car's windshield let alone bullet resistant glass would be impossible, as these objects are made of several layers of glass and plastic.

Yup, if you need something like that.

Yes.

Yes recycling is classic shadowrunner business.

If there is enough water around yes. Otherwise just use a combat spell

I don't hing the area is large enough. By the way, what is the OR of fire?

True, but again not usually useful to the standard shadowrunner.

I think there is a lot left up to GM interpetation actually.

What is "Water"? Does shape water work on seawater? How about soda pop or wine?

Can I take Shape Metal spell or do I have to take Shape Steel, Shape Bronze, Shape Aluminum...

Is a tree wood? Or is a tree a living thing that gets a resistance roll rather than an object resistance threshold?

If I can twist a treed with Shape Wood, can I twist your arm with Shape Flesh or Shape Bone? Can I use Shape Flesh and Shape Bone to assist in plastic surgery without using plastic?

Does Shape Earth work on solid stone? How about concrete or asphalt which are made of stone?

If I slap a coat of latex paint on a concrete surface does that mean the concrete isn't in line of sight?

Perhaps, but it might be of use to the mage down at the recycling plant your team is running against who doesn't have that fireball spell because it's illegal for him to have it, but still needs to fight back with what is at hand.

well, if there wasn't the whole thing about not being able to magic a single part of something bigger, imagine what SHAPE WATER would do to metahumans and all other life-forms. we're made up of roughly 60% Water or something like that O.o

And Shape Metal . . . all those nifty shiney guns you have? gone.
If you can bribe your GM, think a bit about what obvious cyber usually looks like *snickers*

Shape Air . . that one is going to be complicated, but if you argue your point like OJ Simpsons Lawyer, you might be able to suffocate people by simply moving the air away from their breathing apparatus.

No, no, no, simply by holding the same air next to their breathing apparatus.

For some reason this thread gave me idea of NPC:

Wujen using Tai Chi rituals and various Shape ______ spells to create unique pieces of art.

Extraction target? Or steal some of the art/some art has gone missing....

@Stahlseele: Even if said water wasn't part of a whole it would not work because the water is not in line of sight. But bloodbending would be cool.

@Browncoatone: Good questions. I opened this topic to have such questions answered, a IMHO with application of RAW this psell does not work as intended.

well, surgeons and other medical personal would want the shape flesh stuff just as much . . no more cutting, just telling it to divide . .
i now imagine some mage doc dividing the flesh of some woman like moses did to the red sea to put in implants O.o
and lter on, just persuade the flesh to close again, without visible scars.
because it's natural, the OR would be pretty low i imagine . .
probably need to overcome willpower of the target, or need willing target or something like that.

If you had living Tissue that wasn't part of something else. A tissue culture for example. My living flesh is part of me. Get a Shape Me spell.

While a tree is made of wood, wood is not a tree. Get a Shape Tree Spell.

You can take this to apply in general, that if something is composed of material X, but isn't just a pile of material X laying around not being something else, the spell doesn't take effect.

Would a shape Metahuman even be allowed? I don't think so. At least it would cease to be an environmental manipulation.

They usually are Health or Combat spells.

Shape Elf < = close enough to Slay Elf, i would allow it ^^

I always thought it would be particularly amusing to just collapse the bore of the barrel. Can you imagine the mess that would make when you fired it?

Banana Peel!

Now, about Shape Flesh (and derivatives). There's a book I read, Perdido Street Station, while not ShadowRun (though dark and creepy in its own way) did have a branch of...profession? it wasn't explained well...that could shape people's flesh. They could stick their fingers into you, through your skin, without harming you (unless you fought back, then it didn't work as well, broke the seal between invading skin and your skin) and do all kinds of things as if surgery (both harmful and helpful: they could reach into your chest and squeeze your heart and kill you, or reach in and remove that bone caught in your throat).

I've seen Shape Metal, Shape Concrete, and Shape Plastic used to great effect.

"You think that's a knife?
THIS is a knife!"
'No, that's a Spoon . . and we all know, there IS not spoon . . so what do you intend to do with that lametta in your hand?'

With the object resistance for high tech objects it's probably easier just to use telekinesis to subtlety eject the removable magazine from his gun than to take the extra drain for playdoh-ing the barrel. But telekinesis isn't as flashy.

I wouldn't allow the shaping of living tissues (including trees) with these spells. However, a Shape Corpse spell would be great fun if you want to leave body doubles behind (or if you need to get that oversized body in your trunk).

I don't even want to know why the mage has a Shape Corpse spell. No, really, keep it to yourself.

Mainly for body doubles. Also for making vessels - he follows a possession tradition.

In a world where some folks can shape materials just by staring at them...

Is there a reason there AREN'T phallic symbols sticking out of every surface from people being, well, people?

"And in other news, yet another tragic auto accident due to some vandal shaping the asphalt at 23rd & Main into a giant penis."



-karma

Because that kind of culture never arose in ShadowRun.

that'S where Reality and SR Canon deviate from each other.
4chan never happened in there . . don't know if it's something to be sad or happy about *snickers*

You're supposed to fudge a little. Most buildings, for example, are made of "plassteel" which, in spite is the name, is neither plastic nor steel. Thus, "Shape Plassteel" should be useful in most urban areas.

But, seriously, just use the spell design rules to remove the specific target limitation. This increases the drain code by 1, but give you a Shape spell that works on everything.

Right. 1991 (breakup of the USSR). Which means that Eternal September never happened, along with most of our internet culture (which is all, in some sense, related to the same issue that caused Eternal September: Internet Idiots).

QUOTE
""Shape Concrete could be used to open and close an access point into the Ork underground from an underground parking garage without leaving a permanent opening or (physical) trace of passage."


Only if there is no steel mesh in the concrete, which is standard for such buildings."


All you would need for the steel mesh is some heavy duty wire cutters.

Shape the concrete away then snip an opening in the wire mesh.

Then bend a couple of ends so you can hang it back in place and just swing the mesh out of the way. Swing it up. Go through. Let it swing down. Shape the concrete back over it.

Now you have an entrance/door that really can't be detected. Even something like radar or ultrasound would likely miss cuts in the wire mesh.

So you would only need Shape for the outer layers (like brick and drywall) unless you were trying to do an interior wall.

For that just Shape the drywall till you can find an opening large enough to pass through. Dry wall is also specific enough that I'd include the paint or plaster on the drywall)

yeeaaaahh, been there, done that. pissed off a gm.

that idea is beautyfull, i will have to remember that one ^^
also, shape earth, maxed out at force 8 in character generation, dwarf with hight of 1m, 8m long tunnel ^^

That's generally a sign that it's a bad idea. If the GM isn't happy, then no one in the game is going to be happy for long.

well, depends on how you look at it. my group had 3 gms. two of the gms approved the other one was against it.

The only thing i can picture this being is some sort of dwarf cannon. Not to say a cannon built by dwarfs, but a cannon built to FIRE dwarfs.

I'd be against it as a GM. Removing the limitation from spells designed to be balanced with the limitation is different to me than adding the limitation to spells that are balanced around not having the limitation.

I've been playing too much Dwarf Fortress recently. That idea sounds absolutely awesome! When I next make a character it might just be a dwarf who is using shape spells and spirit assistance to create a massive underground base.

Back on shape spells, wouldn't you be able to use them to create vessels for possession and for finding and refining reagents? Who needs to buy and forge plasteel ingots into a plasteel homonculus when you can sneak out in the night and strip some plasteel off whatever you want.

i have such a dwarf built allready for SR3.
he is looking for the secret underground dwarven kingdoms, like the one below germany.
as those are not canon, he will go nuts doing that sooner or later i guess ^^
first idea was to create a N O D - Dwarf, with a really small electrical motorcycle with some sort of weapon attached that he could drive through his tunnels ^^

Yeah, had the same idea for orks in Seattle. Nice little quick smuggling route they can ride their bikes through. Of course there's no streetlights, traffic lights, speed limits, emergency lanes, or ambulances so I was thinking of calling it the "Suicide Express".

that's what cyber-eyes with lowlight and light system are there for ^^

I was going to go with, "You first." But on second thought I think I'm going with, "Be my guest."

Well dwarves naturally have thermovision, and don't need to give away their position with lights. Ultrasound might be another possibilty, but of course that is an active sensor and thus a risk as well.

The biggest prtoblem with the underground base/kingdom/smuggling route/whatever would be getting the GM to rule that the tunnels are sturcturally safe.

are there still infra dead lights for vehicles?
in SR3, there was that option for the headlights, so a dwarf could just use that one and his natural thermo view, true.
but mine lost one of his eyes when a shape earth spell went wrong and some stone splionters pretty much gauged out his right eye.
so, one cyber eye with lowlight and light system go in there, a little magic loss, and he's going on with his search again.
i'll see if i can dig the character up on my other computer, if someone wants me to.

In SR4 a cloned eye probably would be cheaper than a cybereye, and you do not lose essence.

Yeah, I was going to have the leader of the ork enclave down there hire a shadowrun team to kidnap a geologist because of exactly that point.

yes, but it's SR3.
and i like a bit of cyber in my mages.
Also, you can not make a cloned eye glow ominously while casting . .
Anybody know Dr.Tomoe?
http://www.absoluteanime.com/sailor_moon/dr_tomoe.jpg
kinda like that, but instead of glasses with the symbol, the eye itself has the symbol and only the one eye does glow if he does (not) want it to.

Sorry I forgot the SR4 tag. I edited that now to avoid confusion.

Obviously you've never seen the steel mesh in this kind of construction. It's made from Rebar. You would not refer to cutting these as "snipping".

Shape Glass = Entrance that does not change the electrical conductivity of the window. (You'd probably have to know what the Bullet-Resistant Glass is made of, unless it's real Glass.).

Shape Aluminum = "Oh, I'm sorry, were those fire exit door Push Bars supposed to move?"

Shape Silicon = Fun at the Nudie Bar!

Shape Marble = Back-up job doing fancy artwork for high-living SINless people.

Shape Plassteel = Back-up job doing bodywork at the Chop Shop.

Shape Gunmetal = Permenantly Jammed Ares Predators.

Shape Fiberoptics = No more Magesight Goggles.

Shape Synthetic Fibers = Fast and easy way to transport a body and not leave as many blood stains. (Provided there's carpet, that is.).

That's all I got off the top of my head.

That's where the Architecture knowsoft comes into play...or hilarity ensues because you've caused an entire city block to break into the ground.


As far as the limitations of the spell go, it always mentions "elements or materials".
Element seems to refer not to chemical elements, but to the hermetic elements air, earth, fire and water, so water would probably include both salt- and freshwater, but not other liquids mostly made of water (note that Shape Ice is also mentioned as a seperate spell).

Materials can consist of all kinds of (chemical) elements or compounds, but still, there's only one spell each for all kinds of lava, mud, stone or sand, so it seems that the metaphysical concept of the material is more important than what it's actually made of.

Man, i'd allow a Shape Anything spell just to get rid of having to contemplate such esoteric crap...