I'd love to see a topic/thread/thing that might contain all of the changes from errata 1.5 to SR4A that folks have thusfar spotted. One that is unadulterated by commentary. I believe someone else tried it and it became a discussion, which isn't helpful.

So, please post any differences in rules that you find between the fifth printing and SR4A. JUST THE FACTS, PLEASE. I'd love to offer a prize for the most finds, but I don't know what I can actually offer (I'm pretty cheap these days).

PLEASE TAKE COMMENTARY ELSEWHERE. Pretty please.

EDIT: If you MUST comment, at least include a well-described change.

I'm compiling stuff here, if it's sufficiently specific.

It might be wise to edit your original post as they accumulate here, that way people can look at the first post and see at a glance what is changed. I'll put a few here.

* The cost of raising Attributes has been raised from (New Rating) x 3 to (New Rating) x 5
* When modifying or upgrading computer hardware (the Matrix attributes of commlinks, drones, etc.) the highest you can improve the ratings is the original ratings + 2.
* The critter/spirit power of Movement has been nerfed.
* Direct combat spells have a new mechanic that nerfs them.
* The sprite power of Diagnostics has a slight nerf to it, limiting how many bonus dice you can get.
* Object Resistance thresholds have been raised.
* The table of threshold difficulties for Success Tests has been raised in value.

I'd give more specifics on some of these, but I'm at work doing this from memory. Hope this kicks off the list.

Aaron, you have the source text for both, can't you just use a DIFF tool?

Cyberskulls no longer appear to be available in Synthetic varites - just as obvious cyber.

1. Bow damage capped.
2. Dart weapons reintroduced.

If the targets Body exceeds the critters Magic attribute, the movement increase is halved. If the targets Body exceeds twice the critters Magic attribute, the power has no effect.

For each Net Hit applied to damage, the Drain Value increases by +1. For Area of Effect spells, use only the highest Net Hits applied to damage.

The scale was increased from 1; 2; 3; 4; to 1; 2; 4; 6;

Erased Positive Quality (Runners Companion) has been added to the core book.
Adept Centering Metamagic (Street Magic) has been added to the core book.
The Wireless World chapter has been reworked for clarity.

I do not have access to the PDF at the moment, so if any of these are off, feel free to correct them.

A lot of chunks were just plain re-written. That, plus all the extra fiction, sidebars, and so forth make doing a straight-up text comparison less useful.

I'll also add a few:

* Success Test thresholds increased from 1-2-3-4 to 1-2-4-6.
* Extended Test thresholds increased from 4-8-12-16+ to 6-12-18-24+.
* Extended Test limit changed from (dice pool) rolls to a cumulative -1 dice pool modifier per roll.

Innate Spell - Force limited to Spirit's Magic.

Str min is capped at 12. Max DV is str minx1.5.

crizh: What page is that on? I don't see anything to that effect in the innate spell description on page 296.

I have to question what this means.

Seems pretty clear to me. Every roll (after a certain point?) on Extended Tests decreases your dice pool for that test by 1, cumulatively.

Say you're making an extended test (threshold 10, 1 day) with a DP of 9:

1st day: roll 9 dice, get 3 average successes, total 3.
2nd day: roll 8 dice, get 2.67 average successes, total 5.67.
3rd day: roll 7 dice, get 2.33 average successes, total 8.
4th day: roll 6 dice, get 2 average successes, total 10.

(that's assuming it's -1 per test starting at the 2nd, which I can't confirm right now - it may start later)

Well, yes. But it means that certain cumulative tasks are actually impossible, say, writing your own highly advanced software. The first month you make decent progress, but on the 24th you've hit a roadblock: somehow you just can't continue. Ever.

I think this is semi-unrealistic, as there are people who dedicate every waking moment to working on some project and haven't burned out yet. Notably Toady One, the one man software development company (ok, there are two guys, but Three Toe doesn't do any coding) has been officially unemployed for over a year (I can't come up with a date, but I think this is his first full Tax Year without a job--he was a math professor at a Texas university) and is still working on the same project; and the last major update (the game is "alpha ware") took him 9 months to do, the one he's on now is going to take at least that long: he's up to Month 6 since the last release, and I'd say only about 40% done, though this is a guess.

It should be noted that there are a lot of dev notes still to go after that (the entire game is roughly 28% done--and fully playable!).

Edit: I think we broke the "no commentary" rule. :X

Regular Adepts can now have Mentor Spirits, when previously, it was just Magicians and Mystic Adepts.

Binding a weapon focus consts now only Force * 3 instead of (Force + Reach) * 3

Cool

It's got the same "the GM must impose this" caveat that the previous method did.


Yes. How about an alternative: if you must make a commentary, go for it, as long as you also put up a sufficiently well-described change. So, following my own rule:

* Data bomb damage changed from (rating) to (rating x 1d6).

I don't have the PDF, it was mentioned in the main thread, re-reading it I think it may be a restriction on Spirits of Man rather than on the Power.

Long and Extreme range modifiers changed from -2/-3 to -3/-6 respectively.

Arcana and Enchanting from Street Magic added to Magical active skill list.

edit: Chemistry added to Technical active skill list.

Ah. You are correct, crizh. The limitation is specific to Spirits of Man (page 303).

The only difference I see in the Innate Spell power is that they added lines "Innate spells produce Drain as normal." and "Innate spells cause Drain as normal." in a somewhat redundant fashion that strikes me as a typo. Otherwise the wording is identical to SR4.

Sorry to break protocol (seeing as I don't own the PDF [yet]), but does the 'slight nerf' cap the bonus dice at the sprite's force (similar to spellcasting tests)? That would make sense and follow similar rules.

Just to step in... NO arguments, keep the commentary as limited and as NEUTRAL as possible. If you feel you must ask questions or comment on something, find a relevant thread already running, or start a new one. Keep this one clear. You guys are fine now, but consider this a warning for anyone who wants to jump in.

Also when using Countermagic against Indirect Combat Spells apply the Countermagic dice to the Defense Roll (Reaction) of the Target instead of the Damage Resistance Test of the Target.

Biofeedbackfilter isn't a complex form anymore and only as charisma based state on the living persona available.

Actually, not a change, a minor clarification:

Text clarified to say that Technomancers cannot take Biofeedback Filter as a complex form (since it is an inherent form based on their Charisma stat).

Old text, p. 226:




New Text: p. 233:

From the first thread:

In one fell swoop:




I admit that some tasks should be impossible, it just seemed silly the way it was re-worded.

I was also trying to be neutral about it, I was stating my confusion and putting forth evidence from RL I've seen to the contrary. Anyway, I'll shut up now.

That's how it worked pre-ratta.

Um, no. Remember, with indirect combat spells, you get a dodge test, then a resistance test. Before, it added to the resistance test. Now, it adds to the dodge test.

The Repair Icon matrix action has changed again. Icons are now allowed to take actions other actions while being Repaired. The threshold for the test is now (damage taken x 2) and none of the damage is repaired until the full threshold is reached. The text notes that if the icon being Repaired continues to take damage, the threshold will continue to increase.

So, this brings back the tactic of having an Agent heal you while in Cybercombat, but makes it not such an unbelievably-awesome tactic.

The way I understood it, the "Dodge" test was the resistance test, and afterward the "Soak" test happened. Especially when we understand a Resistance test as something involving an attribute before damage is applied. You just "Resist" with Reaction instead of Willpower or Body.

OI! YOU FOLKS WITH THE COMMENTARY WITHOUT ADDING ANY CHANGES!

I asked, fairly nicely I thought, that if you're going to go around making commentary about changes in this thread that you should also list another change. So my question is this: are y'all being deliberately rude, or just inconsiderate?

I greatly enjoy being impressed by people on DSF. This sort of thing is not impressive.

Now, to follow my own rule:

* Grenades no longer have their DV increased with net hits.
* Scatter has been changed:
- Standard: 1D6 meters – 1 per net hit
- Aerodynamic: 2D6 meters – 2 per net hit
- Grenade Launcher: 3D6 meters – 2 per net hit
- Rocket: 4D6 meters – 1 per net hit
- Missile: 4D6 meters – 1 per net hit (– Sensor rating)
- Airburst: 2D6 meters – 1 per net hit (– Sensor rating)

More Matrix-related changes.

* Change Interface Mode (AR/VR) is now listed as a Free action, but it cannot be done if the user has been hit with a Black IC attack.
* The Decrypt action is now a Simple Action specifically listed for Decrypting something with the key.
* Initiate Cryptanalysis is now the action for decrypting something without a key, it now uses the Electronic Warfare skill with the Decrypt program instead of Response.
* Log On is now specifically stated as a Complex Action
* Reboot is listed as a Complex Action, the text clarifies that the system does not actually "create" the node until the full Threshold of 10 has been reached.
* The Intercept Wireless Signals test has been renamed Capture Wireless Signal (it is otherwise unchanged, this was probably done to avoid confusing with Intercept Traffic)

* A node can now have 2 different kinds of Alerts: General in which case the node activates its Alert Response but hasn't identified the intruder; and Restricted where the intruder has been identified
* Terminate Connection is now more difficult for the node. The System makes a Firewall + System (Exploit, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test. The Hacker's Exploit gets +2 for a Security Account and +4 for using an Admin Account. Once the Threshold is reached the Hacker is dumped. If the Hacker is using a legit account, then the Exploit program doesn't count (yikes).

I'll post more as I find them. The Wireless World chapter was significantly rewritten: much for the better.

World of Warcraft addicts may find this more understandable :

Ha. I see what you did there.

Didn't I hear something on the forum about difference in top speed being a modifier during chase combat?

Correct. Whichever side has the greater top speed in a Chase Combat now gets the speed difference / 20 (rounded down) as a DP bonus to all Stunts.

Ayeohx brought that up in a separate thread, but it seemed like something that belonged here. He said it was on page 150.

Sorry Caadium, it's the same rule in both editions. I was just bringing up that you shouldn't loose lock if a target moves.
Again, sorry for the confusion.
*Edit: And I get it now, you're right Caadium.

Ranged attack modifiers for firing from cover have changed.

SR4 pg 141
"Attacker Firing From Cover
Hiding behind cover limits a character's ability to see the
action, even if they quickly move out from behind cover to
shoot, and so applies a -1 dice pool modifier to any attacks."

SR4A pg 150
"Attacker Firing From Cover
Sometimes cover limits a character's ability to see the action and obstructs
his view of his target(s), even when he moves quickly out from
behind cover to shoot. If the Attacker benefits from Good Cover, or
his cover obscures his view, apply a -2 dice pool modifier to any attacks."

So, partial cover doesn't seem to give you any negatives.
Good cover, on the other hand, gives you a -2 dice pool modifier now.

Sensors now have Ratings, making them more compatible with vehicle Sensor rules and also limiting enhancements.

Rotor craft still have no sensor rating?

Edit: Vehicle seating chart added.

I list two pages, first the SR4 page where the change would have been, then the SR4A page where the change is:

SR4/SR4A Change

p17/p16 New sidebar "Core supplements"

p25/p26 New sidebar "Other Natural Disasters And Ecocatastrophes"

p27/p28 New sidebar "Other Geopolitical Events"

p29/p29 New subchapter under "Euro Wars" -> "The Second Ottoman Jihad"

p30/p30 New sidebar "Other Economic Events"

p31/p32 New sidebar "Other Mystical Events"

p34/p35 Three New subchapters "Times of Emergence", "A Second Revelation" & "Underworld at War"

p36/p40 New sidebar "Major Chains and Franchises"

p38/p41 "Sinless in Seattle" renamed "Living in Sin"

p38/p41 New sidebar "Body Shops and Street Clinics"

p39/43 New subchapter "Holes in the System"

p40/p44 New chapter and subchapters "We're not Alone", "Comming Out", "Public Opinion", "Corporate Paranoia" & "Sprites, AIs, and Digital Critters"

p42-43/p46-48 EVO, Mitsuhama and Renraku has got a new logos, the rest of the corps has just had minor changes to their logos. All logos are now in color.

p45/p49 New sidebar "Underworld 93 Bar Prices"

p45/p50 New sidebar "Top Music Downloads"

p45/p50 New sidebar "2070 Sim Bestsellers"

p46/p51 New sidebar "Body Shops and Street Clincs" (should have been "Fashion Brands")

p50/p55 New sidebar"KSAF's Man-on-the-Street Soundbytes"

p52/p60 Deleted sidebar "For veterans of Shadowrun, Third Edition"

p54/p61, Dice Pool Modifiers: New optional rule added at the end:
"Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character's natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher."

p55/p61, Eyeballing Modifiers: New sentence at the end:
"Gamemasters should be warned that using the Most Severe Modifier may favor characters with high dice pools that might otherwise be kept in check by cumulative modifiers."

p54/p61 New sidebar "A Note on Modifiers", discussing how modifiers apply to Attributes, skills, thresholds and dice pools.

p55/p62 Long shots: New optional rule added:
"As an optional rule, gamemasters may chose to limit the probability of extreme Long Shots by reducing the Edge dice available at a ratio of -1 for every increment of -3 negative modifiers accrued on the original test. For instance, if taking a Long Shot in a Pistols test where the character's dice pool would have been subject to a total -5 modifier, an Edge 3 character would roll only 2 dice on the Long Shot."

p56/p63 Thresholds: "...thresholds as high as 4 or more."

p56/p62 Difficulty Table
Old: Easy=1, Average=2, Hard=3, Extreme=4
New: Easy=1, Average=2, Hard=4, Extreme=6

p58/p64, Extended Task Difficulty Threshold
Old: Easy=4, Average=8, Hard=12, Extreme=16+
New: Easy=6, Average=12, Hard=18, Extreme=24+

p60/p69 Attributes: Finally they got the number of attributes right

p63/p68 Skill Groups: Added at the end:
"Any time you improve a single skill within a skill group or add a specialization to one of those skills, that skill group no longer exists.
Taking specializations or raising individual skills in a skill group breaks up the group. Gamemaster approval is required to break up skill groups during character creation."

p63/p69 New subchapter "Technomancy"

p63/p69 Commlinks: Last sentence has been changed.

p63/p70 "Body Modifications" has been renamed "Augmentations"

p64/p70 "Implant Grades" has been revised to make it easyer to understand

p67/73 Three new sidebars "Playing in Three Worlds", "The Sixth World: An Evolving (Hi)Story" & "Metahumanity and Beyond"

p68/p75 "Escape certain death" has been renamed "Hand of God"

p69/p75 "Tweaking the rules" has now included the "Cover as Attack modifier" rule

p72/p80 "Sample Characters" has been removed

p88/p80 New positive quality "Erased"

p88/p81 New negative quality "Pacifist"

p84/p86 New sidebar "Quick Gear References"

p85/p87 New sidebar "Ressource References"

p72-88/p80-97 The "Creating a Shadowrunner" chapter has be reorganised to better reflect the way you would logically create a shadowrunner with less page flipping.

p78/p90 New positive quality "Erased"

p80/p93 New sidebar "More Qualities"

p83/p95 New negative quality "Pacifist"

p88/p97 "Build Point Cost Summary Table" has been revamped and called "Build Point Character Creation Summary"

p89-104/p98-113 All of the Sample Characters has been revamped, and should now fit with the rules (that would be a first in SR history, so far I've only found 1 mistake).

p113/p122 New skill "Arcana" (from Street Magic)

p113/p123 New skill "Enchanting" (from Street Magic)

p114/p124 New "Gymnastic" specialization "Parkour"

p114/p124 New "Parachuting" specialization "Base Jumping"

p123/p126 New skill "Chemistry"

p110-130/p121-138 The whole Skill description and "Using skills" has been revamped. I personally find it more confusing, especially the "Using Specific Skills" (p130-138), where they mix skills, skill groups and even non-skills (Astral Perception). The problem being mainly that skill-description is sorted by type of skill, where as skill use is sorted alphabetically.

p124/132 New subchapter "Using Chemistry"

p129/p135 Knowledge Skill Table
Old: Easy=1, Average=2, Hard=3, Extreme=4
New: Easy=1, Average=2, Hard=4, Extreme=6

p130/p135 "Charisma-Linked Skills and Language" subchapter removed

p138/p148 New subchapter "Interrupt Actions"

p139/p151 Weapon Range Table
Old: Short +0, Medium -1, Long -2, Extreme -3
New: Short +1, Medium -1, Long -3, Extreme -6

p141/p150 Attacker Firing From Cover
Old: -1
New: -2

p141/p150 "Target Hidden (blind Fire)" renamed "Blind Fire"

p141/p160 Target Has Partial Cover/Target Has Good Cover
Changed from attack modifier to defense modifier

p142/p153 "Point Blank" modifier added (+2)

p145/p155 Scatter Table
Grenades scatter reduction is halved
Rocket/missiles/airburst scatter is doubled

p145/p155 "Determine Scatter" additional hits do not add to grenade DV

p154/164 Falling Damage
Old: 1-2=2, 3-6=4, 7-8=6, over 8=+1 box per 2 meters
New: 1-2=2, 3-4=4, 5-6=6, 7-8=8, over 8=+1 box per meter

p155/p164 Falling rate has been changed
Old: 1st turn 150 meter, +50 meters per turn, max 300 meters/turn
New: 1st turn 50 meters, 2nd turn 150 meters, following turns 200 meters

p159/p168 Vehicle Test Threshold Table
Old: Easy=1, Average=2, Hard=3, Extreme=4
New: Easy=1, Average=2, Hard=4, Extreme=6

p160/p168 Terrain Test Table
Old: Open=0, Light=+1, Restricted=+2, Tight=+3
New: Open=0, Light=+1, Restricted=+2, Tight=+4

p161/p169 "Set Up" new subchapter to "Chase Combat"

p161/p170 "Engagement Range"
Old: Close, Short, Long
New: Short, Medium, Long, Extreme

p161/p170 "Multiple Opponents" new subchapter to "Chase Combat"

p164/p176 Everything before "The Basics" removed

p167/p177 New subchapter "Arcana"

p167/p178 New subchapter "Enchanting"

p168/p179 "Noticing Magic" example removed

p169/p179 New sidebar "Street Magic"

p174/p183 "Object Resistance Table"
Old: Natural Objects=1, Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials=2, Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials=3, Highly Processed Objects=4+
New: Natural Objects=1, Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials=2, Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials=4, Highly Processed Objects=6+

p181/p190 New chapter "Enchanting"

p186/p194 New subchapter "Spells and Mana Barriers"

p187/p196 Improved Ability now include Vehicle Skills

p187/p196 Improved Physical Attribute Cost .75/leve (1.5/level if over natural max)

p188/p196 Improved Reflexes Cost 1.5/2.5/4

p188/p196 Kinesics Max level=3

p191/p199 Focus Bonding Table, it now only cost 3xForce to bond a weapon focus

p196/p204 Direct Combat Spells: +1 Drain DV per net hit

p196/p204 Indirect Combat spells: Magic+Spellcasting vs. Reaction (+Counterspelling), then resiste damage with Body+½Impact, plus additional description of how ICS works.

p196/p204 example now include Secondary Effects

p205-240/p212-246 The Wireless World: Has been extensively rewritten, I don't know if any rules has been changed, because it reads completely different than the old SR4 book.

p246/p256 Sleep Deprivation: New rules for going without sleep (using the toxin rules).

p264/p270 Improving an attribute by 1: New rating x 5

p275/p281 New sidebar "Playing Grunts"

p275-276/p281-284 Many of the grunts have been updated with new skills, gear and upgraded attributes.

p277/p284 New sidebar "Fleshing Out Prime Runners And Contacts"

p278/p286 Subchapter "Fleshing out Contacts" dropped

p289/p296 Movement Power has been reduced for targets with Body > Magic

p289/p296 Natural Weapons & Dual Natured combination has been clarified

p304/p313 New sidebar "Arsenal"

p306/p316 Maximum strength on bows=12, Maximum damage from bows = Min Strength x 1.5

p306-310/p316-329 Many of the firearms looks very different from how they have looked in pevious books.

p310/p320 New weapons: Parashield Dart Postol & Parashield Dart Rifle

p310/p320 Panther XXL: The text about the recoil has been deleted. And there was much rejoicing...

p313/p324 New ammo: Injection darts

p314/p324 Gel Rounds do -1(Stun) DV, +2 AP

p315/p326 New armor description: Leather Jacket/Duster

p319/p328 Sensor tags included in RFID Tags table

p320/p330 Matrix programs included under "Datachips and Software"

p323/p332 New chapter "Visual Sensor & Imaging Devices"

p324/p333 New chapter "Audio sensor & Enhancers"

p330/p338 New sidebar "Augmentation"

So far so good, sorry for the ones already mentioned.

Lars

*claps* 4 Larsine

Edit: Autopicker price fixed 200 a rating point now instead of a flat 200 as previously listed.

Larsine: ........ .......

Aaron:
Your comments regards, grenades & rockets, and airburst scatter are in doubt as the book contradicts itself.

1. at 4d6-1/hit w/ -4/m it's practically impossible to hit anything w/ an anti-vehicle rocket even w/ a lot of hits. (even w/ an airburst link)
2. the equipment section has different values printed than the combat section. See p322 and p325

I'd wait for an errata on this one before marking it as a change.

Awesome job man!

One mistake though:
The new Short range is still +0.

Clarification please? Does this mean that the weapon damage for bows is now Min Str x 1.5, is it still Min Str + 2, or can you only add 1.5 x Min Str worth of damage-increasing net successes?

Bow has Strength of 6, base Damage Value is 8, maximum damage value it can inflict is 9
Bow has a strength of 12, base damage value is 14 maximum damage value is 18
Bow has Strength of 4, base damage value is 6, maximum damage value is 6
Bow has strength of 2, Bow cannot inflict more then 3 Damage value, even though its DV would, normally, be 4