Hello,

I was wondering if anyone has tinkered with the parachuting rules for CC. They seem a bit... insanly hard to succeed at.

I was thinking of mofidying them as follows:

Step 1: an easy test to open parachute, since it's pretty easy to pull a rope
TN 2
Modifiers:
bad/terrible weather (+2/+4)
Parachute opened below minimum safe opening (+1 per 250 meters)
Military jump -2


Step 2: Scatter roll: as per rules, base scatter of (opening height in meters) / 2
TN: 6-(opening altitude/100). In the rules, it's 10-(opening altitude/100), which is just too harsh.
Modifiers:
Bad/Terrible weather (+2/+4)
Type of jump:
normal +0
low-altitude +2
HALO: +4
Combat landing environnement +2
Extra successes divide base scatter.

Step 3: Damage resistance
Base: 4M
Restricted/Tight landing 6M/8M
Resist with Body, no combat pool allowed, half impact armour applies.

What changed: Far less likely to die in a parachute attempt, since the opening of the parachute is no longer a Very Big Target Number. Moved some modifiers around, as appropriate for the test. The actual parachute test is a bit easier, since it's 6- rather than 10-. More likely to hurt yourself in restricted or tight landing zones.

There's a thread about just this topic a few months back in the archives.

~J

Parachuting thread from about 2 months ago

Ah, thanks, hadn't seen that thread.
Still, I like my proposal better, except that there should indeed be a parachute packing test before jumping.

I don't remember what was exactly said in the older thread just felt like digging it up for you to see if they had a better plan.

I have always thought the parachutign rules were a bit funky, I have had to skdive yet in our games so we haven't had the opertunity to really put the rules to the test, I guess if I go burning into the side of a skyscrapper I'll start a war with the GM that the rules should be changed.

Well since in RL there are two basic jumps LALO and HALO then most of your rules are not needed for LALO since your generally just hooked to a static line and your chute opens (hopefully) when you exit the plane.

So the packing test would apply but not the open chute test.

For HALO now that is a totally different thing, lots can happen in a HALO since your free falling for a substantial amount of time. The open chute test would apply as would the packing test, also there could be subsequent tests (aided by cyberware) to actually try to land where your supposed to without breaking a limb, bruising organs etc. Wind, weather, daylight/night all play in so add those for modiferis if you haven't.

there are quite a few more types of jumps than that. and that's not what a LALO jump is--LALO just defines the altitude at which you're jumping (low) and the altitude at which you open your chute (low). it's got nothing to do with how your chute gets opened. other types of jumps include, at the very least, high opening.

And the rare "HANO" that goes splat.

And at least MAMO, and maybe MALO. I suppose you could do a HAMO, but there's no point, really.

Solstice did say "generally" though, so I think he knows LALO isn't always static line.

I wonder why the writers of CC named it "Military Jump" and not "Static Line".

Well, they are called "grunts" for a reason, ya know.

I think they specified military jump in deference to the readers who are not familiar with military parachute procedures. And hell, Shadowrunners would be parachuting more like special ops and civilian jumpers than standard airborne troops, anyway.

Haha, my character keeps a LA-chute in case he needs to hot foot it out of his penthouse suite. Thirty-one stories would be enough time to not be sidewalk art, correct?

It's obviously quite dangerous, but it can work, and in that sort of situation, the potential safety of your parachute is not exactly the chiefest of your concerns. Still, you're screwed; where can you go that whoever's gotten up to your apartment can't find you? Chances are they're on the ground and can see you coming down, and if they're smart, they'll be watching from the air either from another building, air support vehicles, or astral. Or if it's LoneStar, all three.

A glider would work better. At least you wouldn't go straight down, and have a chance at evading qwhoever is waiting on the ground.

Slightly off-topic ... but not quite:

How high should one's skilll need to be to successfully make a parachute jump, with little to no injuries? Consider what the skill ratings are "supposed" to mean according to the BBB, and then tweak/fudge the TNs accordingly ... or rework the system (a long-term fudge ) to reflect it. (Yes, I know, "reality has no place in SR", but bear with me a bit.)

I would imagine that your average civilian skydiver SHOULD be able to do the "vanilla" jump: not HALO, not base jumping, but your basic jump. They should be able to avoid injury most of the time, but sometimes maybe twist/break an ankle. Broken legs should be possible but relatively rare (I've watched jumps: it didn't end in a mass tangle of broken legs and such. ). I would expect such a jumper to have a skydiving skill of 4.

Special Forces parachutists should IMO have a skill of 4-6, probably 5 (professional) or 6 (expert). They should be able to safely jump in less-than-ideal conditions, and not hurt themselves very badly. After all, no military's going to use parachute insertions if the expected outcome is half the team getting incapacitated from the jump alone.

Someone with no parachuting skill (defaulting to ... athletics? I don't know), or a skill of 1 or two, and trying to do a night jump in the rain (hey, Seattle has weather ), and land on a small place, is probably going to end up (a) missing their target, and (b) winding up in a world of hurt.

So ... TN's for a normal, good-conditions jump should be such that a skill of 4 gives a pretty decent chance of success, and the damage resistance roll should be stage-able by those with bodies of 3 or 4 (hey, averave to above-average civilian here ). I bet most jumpers would have a body of 4, actually, rather than 3, since they're already athletically inclined. Perhaps a skydiving (landing) test could be used to help add successes for staging (versus a base damage of M or S) -- thereby reflecting that those who Know How would be able to land well and have less to resist, whereas people like me would end up a smear on the ground. (I picture such a mechanic as much like combat pool helps avoid bullet damage, though using a skill instead of a pool.)

In the same light, TNs for combat-drops or other sorts of jumps that would be done by specops type people should be low enough that they could make such jumps, while those with no experience probably would die. Or land in the middle of Puyallup Barrens, and die.

I'd expect that those with a skill of 4 or so could probably DO the HALO or nighttime or rainy weather jump, but would have less jump successes and probably walk away with maybe a light to medium wound (or S, in cases where they don't do as well), while those with skill of 6 or 5 could land and have light or no wounds. I'm not saying that they'd never hurt themselves badly -- bad mojo happens -- but that they should be more than likely be able to avoid hurting themselves (due to training and practice).

I'm not sure what tests should be involved, or even how low/high the TNs should be. The numbers I've seen tossed about in this thread seem to be really high, though -- someone with a Professional (andbetter) in parachuting should be able to jump with few worries: after all, professional means you should be able to expect to LIVE through the engagement, and not kill yourself.

So ... that means that if I'm a shadowrunner with extensive parachuting experience, and a skill of 5-6, I SHOULD be able to do that airdrop onto the top of a building, or into a fenced in compound, or (with more than a little challenge) onto a freighter out at sea. I should be able to get the chute open OK. I should be able to land and not hurt myself (seriously). Landing where I want to land should be the hard part, I think... though, keep in mind that it could only be my lack of skydiving experience speaking.

Conversely, if I have a casual knowledge of jumping (say, skill 3 or 4), it would be unwise to attempt a jump of any significant complexity. Such a jump may be survivable, but it's probably more of a liability to my performance LATER: I'd rather walk in than parachute in and break a leg (serious wound? yeah ...).

For those who HAVE jumped: what were the hard parts for you? What things do you think a professional (as opposed to hobbyist) jumper would be able to do easily?

The TNs, and the overall test proposed here, are far easier and safer than the official rules.

What part seemed to hard?
Let's go through it with differant scenarios, using Sphynx probability calculator, and we'll see:

Jane is out to skydive for fun: body 3, parachuting 3, impact armour 3:
Step 1: TN 4: 87.5% of success
Step 2: Open up at plenty high enough altitude = 6-10 = TN 0, mo modifiers apply (it's a nice day) = min TN 2 = 99.53% success
Step 3: Resist 4M = 87.5% of success of staging down 1 level, she takes Light damage.

Sgt. Pepper is making a military incursion into hostile territory, using a HALO jump: Body 6, parachuting 5
Step 1: 96.87% sucess
Step 2: Opens up at 200 meters 6-(200/100) = TN 4, +4 HALO jump, +2 bad weather (why not?) = TN 10: 35.27% sucess
Step 3: Resist 8M (minus half impact = 7M) = 66.51% of 1 success (i think), so he takes a Moderate wound and does not land where he wanted to

Colt needs to escape his high-rise appartment NOW, and jumps out the window with a low-altitude parachute. Body 5, Skill 4, no armour (only undies)
Step 1: TN 4: 93.75%
Step 2: Opens up at like 100 meters, so it's TN 5 +2 low-altitude = TN 7 = 51.77% of getting 2 successes.
Step 3: Resist 6M = 59.81% of getting 1 success.


So... from these quick examples, we can see that:
A) it is VERY unlikely your parachute will tangle up, so parachuting fatalities are very unlikely
B) Scattering is to be expected
C) Ok, waaay too likely that you're gonna get hurt. This part needs revising.

the group i run uses parchuting a lot, actually. i let them use their atheletics skills as a complementry skill to resist damage from landing. when i was learning to parachute, they taught us how to roll with the landing just in case. it seems to make sense andit works well in my group.

Perhaps halving the powers would be in order.

Wow my work gets quoted in a good light (of sorts).

Sorry be me being a lazy arse i haven't got round to the other half yet