OK....this is something I have wondered. We know that normal Adepts cannot Astrally Project. Can Mystic Adepts?

Or are mystic adepts pretty much nothing more then Physical Adepts who just happen to be able to cast spells and summon spirits?

I am not sure at all, but I have always seen MA as as mixture of adept and magician, they cast spells, use adept powers and summon spirits. but they need to buy astral sight as well. but I would NEVER let a mystic adept be able to astrally project

The rules say that Mystic Adepts can only Astrally Perceive if they but the Adept power that lets them. By the RAW, there's no way for a Mystioc Adept to Astrally Project under their own power. House-rule-wise, I guess you might allow a metamagic that let them do so if they already had Astral Perception.

I would be leery of letting mystic adepts project under any circumstances. On the one hand, mystic adepts are a little weak, but on the other astral projection is the magician thing, and there needs to be some advantage to being a full mage over a mystic adept, something a mystic adept can never compensate for.

Obviously, TPTB have an even lower opinion of Mystic Adepts, given that a) there are no sample characters that are Mystic Adepts and b) As far as I know, all of the Jackpoint posters who are magically active are either physical adepts or full magicians...

Has there even been a mystic adept in a novel? Or, heck, even an NPC in an adventure that was one?

There was a Shadowtalker in SotA 2063 who talked about being a Mystic Adept. But there where many other one-time Shadowtalkers who described their seemingly rather rare magical aspect...

Yeah...introduced towards the end of SR3, and not much to have been seen on them..

And they seem to be very much the "yeah, they exist..but..um, well...we forget about them" group...I mean there are more examples of female trolls in SR4 then there are examples of Mystic Adepts

Do we have any estimation on the share of the Mystic Adepts population compared to Magicians and Adepts?

No...TPTB do not give us much info on Mystic Adepts...

Actually, state of the art 2064 introduced a 'limited astral projection' metamagic. It was specifically intended for mystic adepts who had the astral perception adept power. (No one else could learn it.) It would allow a mystic adept to astrally project just as a full magician could. However, the time limit for astral projection was limited. Instead of losing magic every hour, you lost it every minute.

I should point out that if you're playing SR4A, you shouldn't worry about Mystic adepts because no one's going to play one.

By RAW Mystic Adepts are unable to astraly perceive unless they take the astral perception power, which grantes the ability of astraly preceiving but not projecting; yet I've always disliked the way that Mystic Adepts are flashed out, in my opinion it would be better to handle awakened characters not as "classes" (warior, spellcaster, hybrid) but as sets of abilities, rapresenting the various abilities as Positive qualities (and said qualities shouldn't count against the limit on qualities because the are integral part of the character, more racial modifiers):

Astral Sensitive 10 BP
The character is able to astraly perceive and project, he/she can learn astral combat and assensing skills.

Sorcerer/ess 10 BP
The character is able to cast spells, he/she can learn the Sorcery skillgroup skills.

Conjurer 10 BP
The character is able to summon spirits, he/she can learn the Conjuration skillgroup skills.

Adept 10 BP
The character is able to invest his own mody with magic in order to augment his own abilities.

Both Conjurer and Sorcerer/ess qualities rapresent the relationship that the awakened character with the world around him/her and the magical forces that flow thruoght it, while the Adept quality rapresent the relationship betwen the character and his/hers own self, attuning the spirit to the body and bringing the intent closer to the action; in game terms Conjuration and Sorcery will use a special attribute called Magic while Adept's somatic magic will use another special attribute called Power, each of this attributes will have a cap of ESSENCE + Initiate Grade and each will have its separate initiation, Metamagic techniques that can be taken by both Adepts and Magicians use the best value betwen Magic and Power for determining their effects. Astral Sensitive quality uses whatever attribute (Magic or Power) the character already has, if the character doesn't already have a quality that grantes a special attribute he/she will recive a neutral magical attribute, the maximum rating of this attribute is ESSENCE + Initiate Grade, the character will be able to learn any Metamagic technique that doesn't require to be an Adept or having either Conjuration or Sorcery skills; if for whatever reason the character aquires one of the other qualities after having recived the Astral Sensitive quality he/she will have his/hers magical attribute and initiate grade (if any) converted into the new quality's special attribute (if the character aquires both the Magic and Power attribute at the same time he/she has to chose which attribute gets the boost).

BTW, there is a power listed in SOTA 64 (I think that's the book) that let's Adepts / Mystic Adepts be able to Astrally Project for (Magic) Minutes.

Personally, I would not be adverse to letting Adepts of any flavor pick up Astral Perception and then Initiate to pick up the following MetaMagic & Advanced Metamagic...

Astral Perception (Adept Power)
Astral Projection, Limited (MetaMagic)
Astral Projection, Full (MetaMagic Advanced)

Basically, it'd cost a Power Point and two MetaMagics. That's a fairly steep cost.

What would TPTB stand for?

Actually, mystic adepts were introduced (as physical mages) in Awakenings 2057, which was a late-SR2 sourcebook...they were really scary because they were adepts who could also cast spells and use spirits. I think their win-ness comes from the mixture of the two skillsets in one place. I sometimes use mystic adept prime runners as antagonists in my game.

An interesting idea.

Why not keep them at 5 BP each as they are now?

Adept is already 5 BP for the quality, and Magician for 15 grants your version of Sorcerer/Conjurer/Astral Sensitive.

Now it's the same price, but allows for more customization.

Otherwise to play a magician as it exists now, you'd need to spend 30 BP of your allowed 35 limit on positive qualities, which is definitely unfair.

The Powers That Be

Which is rather annoying when you're trying to flesh out a character's background...




As the Mystic Adept Face for our current team, I'd beg to differ with that statement.

Those would be nice if you could take it instead of those negative qualities.
Full mage should stay at 15 BP though, as well as adept at 5.
Also throw in the elemental adept for 10 and maybe a burnout mage (full mage, no initiation, magic stuck at 1 unless essence <1) for the same cost.
Knacks should also have fixed magic of one so that they actually make some sense.

True but I've always thought that Adept and Magician qualities are worth more than they cost, and that their cheapness is due to their counting against the positive quality limit (and I've exlicitly stated that this techniques don't count against that limit, kind like infected qualities), however what you said is true and you can just give them the cost of 5 BP (Astral Sensitive comes to have the same cost of that Astral Sight knack from Street Magic thought).

One thing that I forgot to tell is that there's no need for Conjurer and Sorcerer/ess qualities to be of the same tradition, after all magic is a personal matter, it wouldn't be that strange for a japanese wage mage to have studied as an hermetic magician and so casting spells as such but summoning spirits as per Shinto tradition, he could just see spellcasting as a craft while summoning as communing with the spirit world and so the Kamis.

I too beg to differ as I am playing a mystic adept right now as well. I don't have much magic devoted to actual magic at all as my split at Magic-6 is 5 for adept power points and 1 for magician uses. The real use of this isn't to spell cast or summon though, but to have access to counter spelling as an ability and to learn the metamagic of shielding. Now my Unarmed Martial Arts Adept has better than average defense against spellcasting. It's well worth it.

I've been toying with the idea of a Mystic Adept from a possession tradition. Get access to channeling, and watch him tear through the streets! I may just take a crack at it tomorrow.

I don't think the spirit would have access to your adept abilities though.
Might as well be wrong of course.

No, I don't believe they do, but he's talking about using the Channeling metamagic as well, where you and the spirit sort of share control as opposed to normal possesion where you sit in the back seat and watch while the spirit magically rigs your body.

So you can use your Adept abilities and what not while getting the stat bonuses, dual natured-ness, Immunity to Normal Weapons and other such benefits of possesion. And if need be, you can use a service to ask the spirit to use one of its powers/skills through you.

Keep in mind that there are drugs that allow you to perceive or project even if you normally couldn't.

Aff, but...um, honestly...why would you want to be making a Dream Pact with spirits that will take you over for a joy ride?

Surprised no one has mentioned this.

By RAW, mystic adepts cannot aserally project or perceive unless they take the adept power "Astral Perception" which lets them percieve, but not Project . . . EXCEPT

Deepweed is a magical drug that lets ANYONE with any amount of magic (even the Magic Talent quality) to percieve for it's duration. Actually it forces you to percieve . . . you can't stop.

The real kicker is in Augmentation, and is called Shade. This magical drug lets (or, rather forces) you to astrally project, EVEN IF YOU ARE MUNDANE. You project for Essense + 1d6 hours. At the end, if you are not back in your body, you die. If you ARE back in your body, you take 10S, unresisted. It has an availability of 8R and costs 1k a pop. However, now Mundanes can take the assensing skill, HURRAY!

Unless the GM is feeling particularly lenient, I don't see using an artificial (drugs) means to Astrally Perceive as being "capable".

Even so, it's 1k a pop and will knock you out cold.

Depends on how you read the rules. Because that rule was written before Shade was invented. So, it says either "Only people capable of astral perception" or "Only mages, or adepts with astral perception." Now that anyone is capable of astral perception, sort of, that rule might want to be revisited.

Anywho, that line was more of a joke anyway. But yes, there is a way for mystic adepts to astrally project, but it requires Shade, and will most likely knock them out at the end of it. (It will unless you have a stun track of 11 or higher.)

I *did* mention them. I just couldn't remember the name of the projecting drug (Shade) off the top of my head and didn't want to go digging through my books. I remembered Deepweed, but it just seemed easier to not name either. It was late.

Sorry, didn't catch your post above. My bad. You were right, it was late.

No worries

While the rules state that only those capable of Astral Perception or Projection are "really" allowed to use the assensing skill, Runner Havens mentions several schools in Hong Kong that use the constant Aberdeen Astral Shallow to teach assensing and aura reading to Mundanes who normally would not be able to learn the skill. (RHp55-56).

I'd say that if a mundane character has the ability to see astrally (either project, percieve, or through an astral shallow) AND has someone who can actually teach them what it is that they're seeing and what those things mean, then a mundane should be able to take it as an active skill, and if not that at least a knowledge skill. Remember that the book states mundane characters can take magical skills as knowledge skills and use them to identify and classify things accordingly, just not use them for the reason intended (i.e., spellcasting for slinging spells, but spellcasting for identifying spells that have been visibly cast). In the same vein, a mundane could "learn assensing and use it when the sight is applicable).

Learning the skill would be quite expensive, however - you'd either have to pay for instruction in Hong Kong, which I imagine is quite expensive due to supply and demand, or use a LARGE amount of Deepweed over the course of your training.

The rule allows anyone that is capable of Astrally Perception to learn Assensing, the fact that it is artificial or even temporary Astral Perception should not even factor into deciding the capability.

I am not a particularly lenient GM, I enforce the RAW strictly and I think by RAW, Shade (and Tempo) allows you to learn Assensing. I can think of at least one other method of artificial Astral Perception.

That reminds me. There is a drug that allows one to astrally project, is there a drug that allows mundanes to astrally PERCIEVE only? Deepweed only works on someone who is at least partially awakened, such as adepts without astral perception or people with the magic talent quality.

As a mundane, I would totally buy that stuff, especially if I was a wannabe mage. It would be even better if it didn't knock me out every time I used it.

Tempo (Ghost Cartels), the drawback might outweigh the benefits.

Actually, I was referring to the 'traditional' mystic adept. For instance, the ninja who can turn himself invisible. Now, you're either too weak to use magic effectively, or you might be better off going full magician and getting bioware or cyberware.

Eh, I'll give you that, given the OR changes in SR4A.

Deepweed wouldn't be required as an astral shallow makes the astral plane visible to the physical plane. That's why those schools exist in Hong Kong. Mundanes can see the astral when the shallow is active.

he's saying that schools with astral shadows are expensive 'cause lots of people want to go to them, but that there is an alternative to the instruction there which is load up on deepweed and have some random mage point stuff out for you.

N/M, I thought the thread looked familiar.

Gotcha. Missed the comma the first time and thought that he was implying deepweed was needed for the training in Hong Kong. Now THAT would be expensive...

Random vaguely related tangent that just popped up into my head:

Mystic Adepts are essentially Magicians who give up one part of their Mana based abilities trifecta (Spell Casting, Summoning, Astral Access) in order to gain access to somatic powers. In the RAW, this is exchanging Astral Acess for Adpet Powers.

What if Mystic Adepts could choose which type of Mana abilities to surrender? For example, an Occult Investigator MA that has Spell Casting and Astral Access, but no ability to Summon. To be perfectly honest I'd almost rather this kind of setup be the default, as it leaves Summoning as a special trick for full Magicians.

Can the fertile minds of Dumpshock illuminate me as to any foreseeable problems with allowing Mystic Adpets a little customization along these lines?

Maybe something like what I've suggested in the 11th post of this thread?

Bah, that was like, two weeks ago. You expect me to reread the whole thread everytime a random idea pops into my head?

And to be serious, no I wasn't intending quite what you mentioned, no changing of points values or making it a modular sytem, more along the lines of "for 10 BP you get Adept Powers and your choice of two out of the three Mana Abilities".

No. Mystic Adepts are Adepts that can trade some power points out for a retained Magic score useful for Conjuring, Enchanting, and Sorcery. In effect, it could be argued that they have taken an Adept Power (call it 'Mystic Aptitude') that costs 1 power point per level that grants them an equivalent Magic to the level purchased for the purposes of using those skills.

Fine, yes according to the SR4A description they are Adepts with additional powers. I'm not seeing the pertinence to the question as I posed it. I'm talking about a hypothetical change to the rules (house rule, campaign rule, whatever you want to call it), not the RAW.




Well, under RAW you're partially right. Adepts, Magicians and Mystic Adepts can all use the Enchanting skill (SR4A, pg. 123), so that's not really something that's affected one way or the other by which way a Mystic Adept allocates his Magic points. The other two abilities (Conjuring, Sorcery) would be 2/3rds of what I labeled above as the "Magician's Trifecta". It's access to those two abilities that a Mystic Adept gets by taking the Quality and splitting their Magic.


Let me rephrase the question, perhaps that might help to engender relevant discussion. But first off, let's make two assumptions:

1. I could give a toss less about the Shadowrun fluff and background (which is mostly true), and
2. I rather like the SR4/SR4A system, and would like to use it for a home brew campaign setting (which is also pretty much spot on).

Given those stipulations, let's make a further assumption that I wish to change the way that Mystic Adepts work in my campaign. To do that I do a little verbal jiggery-pokery to the other two Magical Qualities (ignoring the hell out of Spell/Spirit knacks and the like) in order to phrase the changes I wish to make to Mystic Adepts in a way that will seem clear to my players (taking into account that I am aware of my players reading comprehension ablilities and they are familiar with my writing style). Essentially I break the other two Qualities down thus:

Adept - 5 BP: Adepts are Awakened characters that have access to Somatic Abilities known as Adept Powers, with a number of Power Points equal to the Magic Rating of the character.

Magician - 15 BP: Magicians are Awakened characters that have access to Mana Abilities. There are three Mana abilities; Sorcery, Conjuring and Astral Access. A magician has access to all three of these abilities.


My basic definitions are done, now I want to give Mystic Adepts a little more flexiblity, so I change them as so:

Mystic Adept - 10 BP: Mystic Adepts are Awakened characters with access to Somatic Abilities and two of the three Mana Abilities. Choose two abilities from Sorcery, Conjuring or Astral Access. A Mystic Adept must choose to allocate a number of points equal to the characters Magic rating to either Somatic or Mana abilities. Points allocated to Somatic Abilities become Power Points with which they may purchase Adept Powers. Points allocated to Mana Abilities determine the amount of dice added from the Magic Rating, as well as the maximum Force of Spells and Spirits.

To give my players an example of these changes, I create an NPC Mystic Adept that they may run across from time to time. He's an Forensic Thaumaturge, and as such I decide that spirits aren't that important to him, so I choose Sorcery and Astral Access as the two Mana Abilities for the character. He therefore would have access to:

• Adept Powers (Somatic Abilities),
• Sorcery (Mana Ability #1) and
• Astral Perception/Projection (Astral Access, Mana Ability #2).

We'll assume I buy him a Magic attribute of 5, of which he will put two points into Somatic Abilities and three points into Mana Abilities. With the two Power Points he buys Analytics (2), Eiditic Sense Memory, Multi-Tasking and Three Dimensional Memory. I buy him a few spells, mostly Detection Spells of various sorts, all of which he can cast at up to Force 3, Force 6 if overcasting, adding three dice from his Magic to the rolls. Finally he takes some skill points in Assensing so that he can accurately intepret magically active forensic evidence when Astrally Perceiving.

So, with all that stated and stipulated, the main question remains essentially the same. Given the above changes to Mystic Adepts, does anyone foresee possible problems with changes of that nature? I don't need to know how Mystic Adepts work by RAW (since changing it is the whole point) or by fluff (since the idea is to use the rules in a non-SR4 setting); rather I am interested in seeing examples of how the inventive minds of Dumpshock might show that mechanically, from a game balance perspective, such changes are a Bad Idea (if they are in fact, a Bad Idea, not simply an idea you don't care for).

I like the idea of making magical use modular with each module costing 5 bp or 10 karma, I feel it would allow for characters to be more customizable.

Hmm... One. by the rules... there's only one real reason to make a mystic adept. Adept + Counterspelling (as a skill)! (and access to all focus types including power foci for the few adept abilities which roll magic).

There's way too few adept powers which roll your magic stat though... and the few there are are limited in nature. Attribute boost is a prime example of this. If it's your only means of stat boosting, makes a lot of sense, if you're a mystic adept trying to be a bit of phsad, it makes sense (especially w/ a power focus to boost both it and your 'casting' roles). Even then Mystic adepts really only work when they're aspected by the player. EG: such as a limited summoning ability by either taking aspected quality or just not touching your spellcasting portion and limiting yourself to a little bit of summoning.

Two. 10 points per aspect is a joke of an overcost as posted earlier is a joke in itself. Way too expensive... here's 30 points w/ practically nothing left for any other positive qualties to make a magician... no thanks.

That's a rather shallow perception of Mystic Adepts. Sure, I'll grant you that from a power gaming perspective your view is likely the most efficient construction for MAs, but your really not playing anything but a PhysAd with some cheddar sauce at that point.

Do Mystic Adepts get a bit of the shaft under the current rules (especially the goofy Magic/Max Force ruling)? Sure, that's why I'm pondering some possible changes for a campaign I might run (changes which apparently continue to fail at eliciting any useful feedback). I'd say there are plenty of other options for character builds beyond what you suggest however, wonky rulings or not.




The original poster of the completely modular 10 BP per trait system AllTheNothing specifically stated that the points spent on Awakened Qualities of his design did not count against the 35 point cap for Qualities at character creation. Henceforth if you really wanted to go all out and get crazy, you could take 40 points of Awakened Qualities and 35 points of normal Qualities as well. I'm not sure if Mordinvan was specifically referencing AllTheNothing's posts or not...