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Cain
I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 08:01 PM) *
I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.



I would say that it is not... but the Seattle (and North American) Bias for the original setting made it the only one that really mattered at the time, thus its focus... with 4th Edition, that paradigm is no longer inherently dominant, and we can now explore the more varied forms of shamanism (or hermeticism, or whatever), that permeate the world we live in...

Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 4 2009, 07:32 PM) *
I would say that it is not... but the Seattle (and North American) Bias for the original setting made it the only one that really mattered at the time, thus its focus... with 4th Edition, that paradigm is no longer inherently dominant, and we can now explore the more varied forms of shamanism (or hermeticism, or whatever), that permeate the world we live in...

But we don't. Instead, we get about a third of a page (less, really) describing a mishmash loosely based on North American Shamanism.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 08:01 PM) *
I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.


Strictly speaking, whether the developers knew this or not, Native American shamanism is descended from north Asian shamanism (whence the name 'shaman' came). The detail you call for could have explained this and broadened the scope/perception of shamanism in the game.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 08:44 PM) *
But we don't. Instead, we get about a third of a page (less, really) describing a mishmash loosely based on North American Shamanism.



Just because it is not "explicitly" given in writing, the framework of the traditions have been provided, with an example of several traditions given to us in "Street Magic."

This is enough to allow us to generate an almost unlimited number of interesting and varied magical traditions. Will it take some work... Sure, But isn't that what gaming is all about... cooperative collaboration to provide an environment that is enjoyable to all? If a tradition you are interested in is not out there, create it yourself...

My Two Cents
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 4 2009, 08:46 PM) *
Strictly speaking, whether the developers knew this or not, Native American shamanism is descended from north Asian shamanism (whence the name 'shaman' came). The detail you call for could have explained this and broadened the scope/perception of shamanism in the game.



How True...
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 4 2009, 08:00 PM) *
Just because it is not "explicitly" given in writing, the framework of the traditions have been provided, with am example of several traditions given to us in "Street Magic."

This is enough to allow us to generate an almost unlimited number of interesting and varied magical traditions....

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.
Muspellsheimr
Off-Topic:

Just noticed your signature, Tymeaus, & was wondering if you had seen this - it's so much better biggrin.gif
Zurai
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 10:40 PM) *
No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.


You're talking about something completely different than what TJ was. He was talking about being able to create your own traditions. You're talking about creating NPCs from existing traditions. The two aren't even remotely related, and he IS correct. You're the one who either misread or intentionally misunderstood what he was saying, and are thus wrong.

And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 10:40 PM) *
No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.


Keep in mind that the time-strapped player or GM is going to spend time reading, whether it's in the sourcebook or on Wikipedia. But a book that adds 30,000 words for detailing traditions is going to be harder on the cash-strapped player or GM. Which isn't to say I wouldn't have loved to write twice as much (or more) about each tradition, but it's not seen as a big enough value-add for the customer.

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 10:40 PM) *
Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.


Picture this: if you wanted to add a Hindu brahmin NPC mage to your game, you'd pick up Magic in the Shadows and find absolutely nothing that helps you. No flavor text, no fluff. No mechanics. Do you shoe-horn the brahmin mage into 3rd edition Hermeticism? Shamanism? Voudoun? Do you make up the mechanics? Now you've got to do a bunch of research and figure out how it fits into the game. Or you can read Street Magic and you know how it functions, mechanically, plus you have a solid bit of information about the Hindu magical tradition: the differences between the path of brahmin and the saddhu, the types of rituals common to their magic, the appearance of their spirits (ashuras), how they relate to mentor spirits, etc.

Besides, I just re-read the Voudoun information in Magic in the Shadows, and more than half of the word count is devoted to explaining mechanics, sometimes literally repeating mechanics information already found in other sections of the magic rules.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 09:40 PM) *
Instead, you have to go and research it yourself.


Gary Gygax argued that this is one of the greatest benefits of role playing games. You learn stuff. You learn how to learn stuff.
Cain
QUOTE
Or you can read Street Magic and you know how it functions, mechanically, plus you have a solid bit of information about the Hindu magical tradition: the differences between the path of brahmin and the saddhu, the types of rituals common to their magic, the appearance of their spirits (ashuras), how they relate to mentor spirits, etc.

You and I both know that every tradition in SM is just a quick overview, barely scratching the surface. While I understand that you tried to draw a line between depth and completeness, I stand by the thought that less is more. Very few people know anything about the Zorastrian religion, for example; if it were completely missing, replaced by a few more paragraphs on Voodoo, wouldn't that make the Voodoo section better?

I'll also point out that Hermeticism and Shamanism deserved a repeat. Each of the traditions in SM have more word count than the core two. I think that's a crying shame.
Demonseed Elite
I won't fault you for believing that fewer traditions is more valuable, but I will disagree with you. And as a writer, I know I can't please everyone. Everything I've written faced choices about word count economy. I personally think that the tradition write-ups in Street Magic are more valuable to players and GMs, but you disagree.

Removing Zoroastrianism to add a few more paragraphs to Voudoun might make the Voudoun section better, depending on what was in those paragraphs. The Voudoun section in Magic in the Shadows contains a lot of wasted word count. And cutting Voudoun out entirely and adding a few more paragraphs to the Zoroastrianism section might have made the Zoroastrian write-up better. Zurai, who posted above, might have appreciated that, but you probably wouldn't have.

And actually, the write-ups of Hermeticism and Shamanism in the core book have approximately the same word count as each tradition in Street Magic. They are sort of bland write-ups, though. Probably because they are in the core book, so they can be generalized for groups that don't purchase the other books. Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 08:40 PM) *
No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.


For those with Very Limited time, maybe that would be true... but I enjoy the research aspect to make sure that the tradition is accurate. Sure, I could look in the SR3 Magic book, but, since I do not have it (all of my SR3 material was stolen out of my car), well, then the Internet is the next best thing... and even so, I think that if you "do the research" it will take on more of a life in your game than just reading the text from Magic in the Shadows.... BECAUSE you did the research, it has more Life and Meaning, and since you wrote it up for your game, well, it will feel more real to the players as you will not be fumbling around trying to remember the text that you read...

But, Your mileage will vary... In my experience, the game information that I work on personally feels more real...

QUOTE
Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.


Which is why I research the details anyway... the "Fluff" from Magic in the shadows could have some things wrong, and I would want to at least verify the data was correct... And yes, I even look into the data presented in the Street Magic reference to get more of a feeling for the details, and I tend to add these details as needed for each tradition.

Just my two cents
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 4 2009, 09:26 PM) *
Off-Topic:

Just noticed your signature, Tymeaus, & was wondering if you had seen this - it's so much better biggrin.gif



Nice... I like it... I may have to change my Signature...
Cain
QUOTE
Removing Zoroastrianism to add a few more paragraphs to Voudoun might make the Voudoun section better, depending on what was in those paragraphs. The Voudoun section in Magic in the Shadows contains a lot of wasted word count. And cutting Voudoun out entirely and adding a few more paragraphs to the Zoroastrianism section might have made the Zoroastrian write-up better. Zurai, who posted above, might have appreciated that, but you probably wouldn't have.

That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 4 2009, 11:03 PM) *
And actually, the write-ups of Hermeticism and Shamanism in the core book have approximately the same word count as each tradition in Street Magic. They are sort of bland write-ups, though. Probably because they are in the core book, so they can be generalized for groups that don't purchase the other books. Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.

Here, we agree. Hermeticism and Shamanism were due for a revisit in SM; but a revisit somewhere else would be nice as well. Fitting it into the location material would be perfect!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 09:19 AM) *
That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.


Or, you do a little research, discover this fact and add the flavor yourself... A lot of people (all of those not familiar with Ryobu-Shinto), even with the inclusion that you suggested, would STILL need to do their own research to make the Tradition of Ryobu-Shinto a playable one.

I will say it again... Research is not a bad thing...

Two Cents and all that...

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 4 2009, 09:28 PM) *
You're talking about something completely different than what TJ was. He was talking about being able to create your own traditions. You're talking about creating NPCs from existing traditions. The two aren't even remotely related, and he IS correct. You're the one who either misread or intentionally misunderstood what he was saying, and are thus wrong.

And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.



Thanks for the support... Much Appreciated...
pbangarth
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 10:19 AM) *
That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.


This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?" Those who do check it out find that the entire Judaeo-Christian/Islamic mythology owes a HUGE debt to Zoroastrianism. Hence, it does have much influence, at least in the real world, if not in the blindered world of Shadowrun.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 5 2009, 09:32 AM) *
This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?" Those who do check it out find that the entire Judaeo-Christian/Islamic mythology owes a HUGE debt to Zoroastrianism. Hence, it does have much influence, at least in the real world, if not in the blindered world of Shadowrun.



Exactly... Well stated... I never approached it from this angle, but it is very appropriate... There are a LOT of Real World religions that are useable for Shadowrun and it's magical traditions, and showcasing those few found in Street Magic exposes others to their existence...

So... When can we expect another Sourcebook showcasing a few dozen more? Using the current format of course.
Demonseed Elite
Voodoo's special place in Shadowrun is pretty much owed to it being a favorite tradition of Steve Kenson's. He worked it in wherever he could (as writers--including me--will often do with their favorite topics).
Cain
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 5 2009, 09:32 AM) *
This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?"

This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook. In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 05:19 PM) *
But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

Not really. You've given us a sentence on Ryobu-Shinto there, and I still know nothing about what followers of Ryobu-Shinto actually believe. I don't feel at all enthused to create a Ryobu-Shinto tradition magician from your description, despite liking both Shinto and Buddhism as possible magician paradigms. If you feel that you've not given a good showing of the two-sentence style you advocate, I invite you to do your best to demonstrate its worth. Be sure to provide a Ryobu-Shinto entry.

In order to get people out of the "Shamanism or Hermeticism" shell, you need to provide material that captures the imagination of the reader. A sentence by itself doesn't provide enough information to do that. At the same time, the writers have to pay attention to the space budget. The balance struck in Street Magic is good.

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 05:54 PM) *
This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook.


So many people go out of their way to find out about subjects they don't even know exist.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 5 2009, 10:02 AM) *
Not really. You've given us a sentence on Ryobu-Shinto there, and I still know nothing about what followers of Ryobu-Shinto actually believe. I don't feel at all enthused to create a Ryobu-Shinto tradition magician from your description, despite liking both Shinto and Buddhism as possible magician paradigms. If you feel that you've not given a good showing of the two-sentence style you advocate, I invite you to do your best to demonstrate its worth. Be sure to provide a Ryobu-Shinto entry.

In order to get people out of the "Shamanism or Hermeticism" shell, you need to provide material that captures the imagination of the reader. A sentence by itself doesn't provide enough information to do that. At the same time, the writers have to pay attention to the space budget. The balance struck in Street Magic is good.



So many people go out of their way to find out about subjects they don't even know exist.



Exactly, Which is one of the things I like about Roleplaying games... They are a great learning tool... If you take advantage of the opportunities that they represent...
Tyro
Has anyone else noticed that it's basically everyone vs. Cain on this topic?

That seems to happen a lot :-/
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 5 2009, 03:54 PM) *
Has anyone else noticed that it's basically everyone vs. Cain on this topic?


I actually hold no position on this argument. The only other "vs. Cain" topic I recall was about if SR4A was "good" or not, and there I think I was sided with Cain on several points.
Malicant
Something about Cain makes people disagree with him, even if he is right. Don't ask why, just search for Mr. Lucky, and look for closed threads that are still smoldering.
kzt
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 4 2009, 11:03 PM) *
Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.

I really wish the developers would be willing to throw out entire chapters of the base book and replace them in expansions. I hate having to look between two different books to figure out how a mechanic works. Plus they can FIX broken mechanics instead of trying to paper over them.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 09:54 AM) *
This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook. In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.


There is more to Shadowrun than Seattle, more to Shadowrun than Voudun/Hermeticism/Shamanism, more to Shadowrun than the limited perspective of personal interests of the (admittedly very creative and muchly appreciated) original developers, or to be more accurate, the perspective of same that players have chosen to focus on, ignoring the possibilities. Not all of us choose to limit ourselves and our game play. Some of us would like to branch out, particularly since the game has been around for twenty years now, and the set pieces like Seattle are becoming somewhat boring.

If one wishes to be limited and focussed on the same-old-same-old, let him remain behind.
BlueMax
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 5 2009, 01:37 PM) *
If one wishes to be limited and focussed on the same-old-same-old, let him remain behind.

Just because one is limited and focused does not mean it has to be "same-old-same-old". I thought it was a pretty good post till the implication that focus put you behind. Focus and strength, in this case degree of intensity and effectiveness, can get you ahead and set you apart from the pack.

BlueMax

TheForgotten
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 2 2009, 03:32 AM) *
Yeah, it's flavor. Yes, the new system is very flexible and allows for more real-world traditions to be brought into Shadowrun. The problem is, there's so much emphasis on the new system, there's almost no description. Hermeticism and Shamanism get about four paragraphs of flavor each in the BBB. Of all the new traditions, they get maybe two. Fewer traditions, with richer descriptions, would have been a lot better.


Suggest if you feel that way the best thing to do is to start lobbying for the big book of traditions, which will give each a couple of pages, present a couple unique edges for each and some new metamagic techniques.

Zurai
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 5 2009, 04:47 PM) *
Just because one is limited and focused does not mean it has to be "same-old-same-old". I thought it was a pretty good post till the implication that focus put you behind. Focus and strength, in this case degree of intensity and effectiveness, can get you ahead and set you apart from the pack.

BlueMax


He didn't say limited and focused in general. He said limited to and focused on the same old stuff, specifically. Which is pretty much what Cain is arguing for -- "Voodoo is more important in the world of Shadowrun (or at least in North America), so screw all the other new traditions that don't hold as much historical weight because the old system of requiring each tradition to have its own separate mechanics prevented anyone from following them, thus preventing them from having any significance in the world of Shadowrun. Self-Fulfilling Prophecies are the shiznit, yo!"
Dream79
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 04:19 PM) *
But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.
Tyro
QUOTE (Dream79 @ Apr 5 2009, 03:44 PM) *
To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

I love being on a forum with interesting and informed people ^_^

I learn so much!

[Edit:] No, that was not sarcasm. I really do mean it.
Dream79
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 5 2009, 10:50 PM) *
I love being on a forum with interesting and informed people ^_^

I learn so much!

[Edit:] No, that was not sarcasm. I really do mean it.

Eh, I figure everybody knows something, though I'll agree that the discussions in dumpshock have no peer.
Tyro
QUOTE (Dream79 @ Apr 5 2009, 03:55 PM) *
Eh, I figure everybody knows something, though I'll agree that the discussions in dumpshock have no peer.

None that I've seen ^_^
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Dream79 @ Apr 5 2009, 05:44 PM) *
To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.


And Shingon is a Japanese branch of Vajrayana Buddhism, which itself is the branch of Buddhism that the Buddhist tradition in Street Magic is based on. So it's likely that functionally it would follow the Buddhist tradition.
Dwight
QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 4 2009, 09:28 PM) *
And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.


Of course, he's saying he'd rather just stick to the core traditions. Unfortunately that would mean cutting something that SR4 has done, and DE has said is fairly popular, a bunch of ready-to-go stats for traditions outside the big 2. His preference basically comes down to his lack of priority for that. *shrug*

Well that and, I suspect, his preference for being a grumpy naysayer and his desire to see everything in SR canon fleshed out to the nth degree. wink.gif Both disturbingly common in long time SR fans at Dumpshock.

Cain
QUOTE
To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

These two sentences would be a good addition to the Shinto section of SM. Trim out the traditions no one will use, and add more word count to those that have an impact on the 6th world.

Really, if I had my way, things would look like this:

One full page each in the BBB on Hermeticism and Shamanism. Plus art.

Half a page (or more) on fewer traditions in SM.

A complete walkthrough on how to build a tradition (similar to what we already have).

Note that SM is closer to what I'm hoping for; it's the really weak descriptions in the BBB that irk me.

Tyro
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 05:56 PM) *
These two sentences would be a good addition to the Shinto section of SM. Trim out the traditions no one will use, and add more word count to those that have an impact on the 6th world.

Really, if I had my way, things would look like this:

One full page each in the BBB on Hermeticism and Shamanism. Plus art.

Half a page (or more) on fewer traditions in SM.

A complete walkthrough on how to build a tradition (similar to what we already have).

Note that SM is closer to what I'm hoping for; it's the really weak descriptions in the BBB that irk me.

If you did that, you would probably cut some of my favorites, like Zoroastrianism. I like it as is.

I agree that the BBB is pretty weak on the subject, but they knew they would be releasing street magic. They should have given a bit more space to shamanism and hermeticism, I agree.
GreyBrother
Talked with my GM yesterday about this.
His point was exactly as Cain said, that some of the minor traditions could be thrown out of the window or added in things like the Digital Grimoire but there should be a little bit more structure about the more prominent Traditions, like general customs, holy days, a description of the history and the "how the Tradition exists now" and relations to other traditions.
I think it is a valid point. But it it can't be resolved until somebody invents a timemachine. But maybe there is some place in a future publication for exactly that? A big Book of Shadowrun Hermeticism like those nifty chapters in the SOTA Books? Or as a free download/webpage presentation?
darthmord
If the published products are so lacking in the opinions of many people on this thread, why don't we see about starting up a section of DumpShock that is nothing but fan creations?
Demonseed Elite
The tradition write-ups in the core book are pretty weak. I'm totally with you there. I'm not sure who wrote those; I can only guess they tried to keep them vague because it's a core book and they wanted people to be able to just play with the core book and some very vanilla Hermeticism and Shamanism if they had to. I mean, if you just pick up the core book and never pick up Street Magic, you can technically take that Hermetic tradition and the Shamanic tradition and apply it to anything, because they are so openly defined.

Aside from the possibility of a big book of traditions (which I really doubt will ever happen), I think those kinds of details are best handled in setting material, especially the sprawl books. Especially since some of those traditions will have different practices in different areas. Japanese Shingon magicians will have different holy days and customs than a Tibetan monk, even though mechanically they probably use the same tradition. Similarly, a Hermetic in Seattle won't be exactly the same as a Hermetic in Cairo.
Mäx
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 07:54 PM) *
In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.

Umm... why is voodoo so importand in SR world.
ornot
In my experience players usually ignore the traditions listed in the book, and write their own. I don't think that this suggests the core traditions or the extra ones in SM are poorly written, inadequately fluffed or anything like that, but that the new system is astoundingly easy to adjust and personalise. Including the variety they have makes it easy to create new traditions, which having only Shamanism, Hermeticism and Voodoo would not. I also disagree that Voodoo should be considered a major Tradition, alongside the Big Two which have always been the options available. Voodoo does not, in my view, fill a unique niche unoccupied by Shamanism and Hermeticism, any more than Wicca or Druidism might.

I do agree that one problem with the new system is that it does make traditions blend a bit too much. My solution to this is a minor houserule (I know, I'm a houserule fiend) whereby each Tradition has a specific geas integral to it. It might be Incantation, or Prayer, or in the case of the Summer Dress tradition, a requirement to wear and look hot in a summer dress. I should specify that this geas is non-optional, and provides no BP return. Other than that it should follow all the usual rules for Geases.
Blade
It's not hard to find a lot of information for the traditions that already exist (or existed).
I prefer to have the space used for things specific to Shadowrun rather than for things I can easily find elsewhere.
Cain
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 6 2009, 05:29 AM) *
Umm... why is voodoo so importand in SR world.

There's a lot of material and storylines surrounding it. While there's not a single Zorastrian story in the novels or the fluff, Voodoo appears in a lot of places. Heck, it even gets a storyline stemming from Dunkelzahn's will.
Tyro
QUOTE (ornot @ Apr 6 2009, 05:35 AM) *
In my experience players usually ignore the traditions listed in the book, and write their own. I don't think that this suggests the core traditions or the extra ones in SM are poorly written, inadequately fluffed or anything like that, but that the new system is astoundingly easy to adjust and personalise. Including the variety they have makes it easy to create new traditions, which having only Shamanism, Hermeticism and Voodoo would not. I also disagree that Voodoo should be considered a major Tradition, alongside the Big Two which have always been the options available. Voodoo does not, in my view, fill a unique niche unoccupied by Shamanism and Hermeticism, any more than Wicca or Druidism might.

I do agree that one problem with the new system is that it does make traditions blend a bit too much. My solution to this is a minor houserule (I know, I'm a houserule fiend) whereby each Tradition has a specific geas integral to it. It might be Incantation, or Prayer, or in the case of the Summer Dress tradition, a requirement to wear and look hot in a summer dress. I should specify that this geas is non-optional, and provides no BP return. Other than that it should follow all the usual rules for Geases.

The plural of geas is geasa. Pronounced "GUESS-ahh", "GEYS-ahh", or "gay-AHS-ahh".

Gaelic is strange O.o
Zurai
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 6 2009, 04:32 PM) *
There's a lot of material and storylines surrounding it. While there's not a single Zorastrian story in the novels or the fluff, Voodoo appears in a lot of places. Heck, it even gets a storyline stemming from Dunkelzahn's will.


I'd still wager that Zoroastrianism has far, far, far more historical relevance in Shadowrun than Voodoo does. Mainly because it's got vast historical relevance in the real world before the SR divergence, whereas Voodoo doesn't, and still isn't a major player in SR.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 6 2009, 03:53 PM) *
I'd still wager that Zoroastrianism has far, far, far more historical relevance in Shadowrun than Voodoo does. Mainly because it's got vast historical relevance in the real world before the SR divergence, whereas Voodoo doesn't, and still isn't a major player in SR.


But in the real world all magic is voodoo. Voodoo is very popular (dolls and pins, that whole thing). So it's no surprise that when "Surprise! Magic is real!" happens a lot of people fall into the cultural understanding that they have and "practice voodoo" because "that's how they did it in the movies."
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