Hi.
I am new to SR4 and I am reading up on combat right now.
According to the core rules of SR4, can a defender in melee use Unarmed Combat to defend against a melee weapon?

Yes, but most likely the unarmed defender will be at a disadvantage.

I think so, but if I were GMing the fight, then the player wanting to defend had better have something like brass knuckles or hardliner gloves. Otherwise he's going to be in a world of hurt.

Well it is possible to defend yourself unarmed against an armed aggressor without getting injured. It's just damn difficult. If you want, you kann reduce the defender's skill, but I wouldn't complicate the system any further. Obviously everyone is learning self-defense against weapons.

Unless the attacker uses a knife or brass knuckles he get's +1 per point of net reach. Not exactly a disadvantage for the defender but an advantage for the attacker. But from a mechanics point of view this is better.

same deference you got want I meant.

Not exactly a negative modifier on the defender would increase the probability of glitches for him. The way it is by RAWthe glitch probability decreases for the attacker. I like it.

Thanks for the quick replies

It looks like you are all agreeing that the rule says that you can use R+UC vs a melee weapon attack.

I really just wanted to know the official core rule for this and I totally agree that this might not hyperrealistic.

Actually, reach can be applied as either.

Oops, forgot that

It's not hyper-real, but it at least is fair for both sides. It's a game, after all. Picking too much on something isn't good for fun.

We just say that since a melee attacker has Reach, they have a better chance of getting the hit to land home. So, in a way, they ARE at a slight advantage over an unarmed attacker(who can't negate that reach with Kick Attack, since we can't see how that would work on defense) but we don't sit there and require hardliners, forearm guards, and the like on TOP of it.

There is a maneuver, Clinch, that can negate the Reach bonus of an attacker, if i recall.

Clinch and then knee da' crap out of them. Use Finishing Move to get in another knee or two.

And the PPP Forearm guards are fairly cheap to buy if the GM requires some sort of "parry" item to use Unarmed against weapons. Heck, depending on the style, Shin Guards would work as well.

Kick-Boxing, or Muay Thai or however that is called.
if your GM does not want to let you block edged weapons with these, just add in some metal or ceramic plating.
Remember, that there's the kick attack and maneuvre that add reach to unarmed combat as well, so kickboxing would actually even things out for the unarmed against a reach of 1 or maximum 2.
but if you face a troll using a reach 2 weapon, you are fucked anyway *snickers*

This reminds me on what my knife instructor said,

Sounds a lot like what my Combat Instructor in the Marine Corps told me as well...

Not as good as what my martial arts instructor always said.

"Bring a Knife to a fistfight. Bring a sword to a Knife fight. Bring a Gun to a swordfight. Don't go to a gunfight."

No, you bring armored vehicles to a gunfight, then you bring air support to an armored vehicle fight, and then you nuke it from orbit, because its the only way to be sure.

And you don't go to an orbital weapon fight.

That's the problem now-a-days. No one knows how to have a nice impersonal fist fight. Everyone feels the need to escalate. (*sigh*)

But yup, in a knife fight your going to get cut. Try not to jump on the knife, since your likely to catch it with your guts. Which (litterally, I believe) isn't kosher. The back of the forearm is pretty decent place if your going to choose. The bone is right there, pretty strong, and not a whole lot vital to get cut.

It depends on the mechanism they are using....since their hits increase threshold needed, it would seem to me more like:
Player: I am using unarmed combat to try and block his sword swing! (Rolls 3 Hits)
GM:(Rolls 4 hits, still succeeds) Your hand moves up, under his sword arm, unfortunately, his angle was still good, so the blade sinks into your shoulder, instead of your collar bone, and your block slows some of the blade momentum down...Roll Damage resistance!
or
GM(Rolls 2 hits): You forearm catches the inside of the sword arm, and pushes it it away just enough to miss striking you.

Neither of those options, though, involves the PC striking at/blocking the blade directly..Something I admit I kind of wonder about, though, is the "Aggressive Defense", where your opponent tries to swing a sword at you, and, instead of trying to block him, you kick him in the gut/sweep his legs/any other tactic to get him staggering away from/on the ground/not swinging that sword at you..

Two NPCs in my group are always in for a good Fistfight. Krunch and Klub.

It's just that Krunch is a Troll, Klub is a Dwarf, and Krunch uses Klub as a Ranged Weapon.

So far, it's proven to be very, very effective.

Also Good Advice for those inclined to remain healthy

Yep, The only way to be sure...

Ahhh Yes, The old Cannonball Express tactic...

I sense the Dwarf Tossing jokes coming.

Well, it started with one of the PCs noting "Metahuman Body" in the weapon statistics, and came up with the idea of a Max-Strength Troll using a Heavy Body Armour wearing Max-Body Dwarf as a weapon. Krunch and Klub are born.

It started as two joke NPCs, but they've been fleshed out quite a bit, and Krunch's education has come in handy a few times. Klub's knowledge of engineering has been useful to, come to think of it.

I believe (especialy in more cinamatic play) that there are plenty of tactics to defend against an armed atacker when unarmed, dodging around obsticles, intercepting the opposing limb, grappling. and what about all those martial arts maneuvers and phys ad powers. shouldn't a kung-fu adept with great leap just laugh at the guy with the knife?

In SR, as already stated, the difference between an armed and an unarmed character isn't actually all that great. The single point of reach advantage isn't going to heavily affect the outcome.
In real life, a competent knife fighter is a death sentence for a similarily skilled martial artist. There are just too many places where a cut is going to kill you, even if it wasn't all that deep.
Now, if you're actually better than the armed attacker, you may very well win, but the general consensus of the thread is a good one: It's better not to try, if possible.

True. Agree with u there. At the other end of the spectrum though an ok knife wielder, would end up having his blade taken away and planted in his chest by a good martial artist. Probably with his own hand. lol

Also hard to argue...

"Once upon a time, a man tried to mug my roomate. This man had a knife, and was of 'average' statistics (such as height, weight, etc etc). My roomate is a 6'4" and has a good physical build. This man told my roomate to give him his money; my roomate told him no. The man said he would cut my roomate; my roomate said he would break his nose. The man cut at my roomate, my roomate threw up his left arm, back of the arm out, and recieved a slash. At the same time, my roomate punched out with his right arm, and imploded the man's nose. Man fell down, roomate called cops, man was arrested for various crimes, roomate got a handful of stitches."

I count it as a win. Things change though in Shadowrun, when people are using things like fireaxes and swords bigger than a man. Bones aren't that strong.

I had a friend in the Marine Corps with a similar experience, though it involved a gun instead of a knife... He took the gun away and beat the mugger almost to death before he called the cops... Sometimes unarmed is all you really need, sometimes it is better to have a weapon... Your Mileage May Vary...

If you understand the limitations of your weapon, you will be far more effective. Krav Maga (and a few other styles) teaches how to disarm a someone holding a pistol. Pistols are ranged weapons. Use it at range. Stay out of your opponent's reach. A knife is a very intimate weapon, and to use it, you must get very up close and personal. Be wary of punches, but once you are in, you are "in".

Also, the trick to blocking weapons with reach isn't about parrying the weapon itself. Step in and block the hand/wrist holding the weapon. You are half way to a "clinch", and you cut the energy of the attack way down while avoiding the slashy/pokey bits.

In game terms, I believe the major difference between armed and unarmed combat is the type of damage dealt. Dealing Stun damage has the same effect in the immediate timeline as Physical damage. Physical damage, however, lingers for days if not longer, while Stun is usually gone in a few hours, or after a nights sleep. This is why I don't mind dishing out Stun damage. If I really want to kill the opponent, I can beat them senseless, then slash their throat.

Of course, in real life, a broken nose may not be lethal, but it is still an injury that doesn't go away.

The long version of "Charge a gun, run from a knife."

true, but not only for reach weapons

This is what I was going to pop in and say. I'd call myself a competent martial artist, but I'm also intelligent enough to know that clubs and blades are bad news and wouldn't want to be challenged with one. The blocking and deflection method is more or less the same as described as above, because if you take a hit to your arm with a blade or club, you're screwed. Blocking at their wrist inside of their swing is a lot smarter and safer for clubs and swords, as simple physics tells us that closer to the fulcrum with a circular swing gives us less energy delivered and we avoid the focus of the attack. Knives are still dangerous that close and require a bit different of a defense.

But, the game's reach mechanics cover that difficulty to move close and block the wrist or arm unarmed while the attacker is armed. The attacker either gets their reach bonus or the defender gets that removed.

Something to note is that most people are not as good as they think they are. If someone trains or competes regularly, they probably have a good sense about their own skills, but most people on the streets really aren't that good. Watch any of the streets fights on YouTube or that show Bully Beatdown and you will see people fighting like kids in a school yard. It gets worse when they pick up a weapon. A baseball bat can break bones and ends lives, but against an unarmed attacker who has trained for it, the bat will most likely get in the way. On the other hand, someone who has 20 years experience of practice with medieval sword fighting can use a baseball bat with lethal effect.

Knives are just scary no matter whose hands they are in. They don't need nearly as much strength to be dangerous, though skill and intent is more of a factor. They are harder to defend against because they don't telescope movements as much. A bat needs to be swung. A knife can be hidden until the last moment and thrust forward.

I don't worry about the game mechanics, mostly because of the abstraction of the rules.

Guns aren't the problem. Ammo, and the willingness to use it is.

And now, a word from Bill Shatner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yJ7cfr9Lso

My friend Nick was at a gas station picking up a case of beer a week after getting back from Iraq. A guy walked up behind him while he was checking out with a pistol and tried to hold up the place. Nick noticed what was going down by the cashiers eyes getting big and her face going while as the guy walked up behind him.

When the cops got there a couple of minutes later, Nick was still holding the pistol by the barrel and kicking the guy every time he tried to get back up. He broke the guys nose, two or three fingers on his right hand, and kicked the crap out of him. I smacked the heck out of him the next time I saw him and he told me something along the lines of "What, the guy had the pistol right in my face".

Moral is, if you got a guy, stay outside of reach.

ahhh, but if you watch the movie Equilibrium with Christian Bale, then a gun is both a melee and ranged weapon. And we all know that if it's in a movie, then it's true right?

No, moral of the story is, we got VETERANS again that are still young enough to beat your young-punk ass up!

Bet your buddy at the Gas Station found the beating more theraputic than the beer, eh?

I believe the term is Fastball special...

Heh, Wolverine as a dwarf with cyberspurs...

totally stealing that

And a Troll-Throwing Adept that can throw the Dwarf-Wolverine through a Police Car . . i still have that image somewhere ^^

Moral is, if you have a guy, throw him? O.o