Hello Everybody
I'm having a little Discussion and I'm looking for Official Statements that
A)Cyberlimb Armor stacks
B) Cyberlimb Armor doesn't hinder/encumber a Char like worn Armor
I Know that for a fact,but I can't find Official statements for the unbelievers (i've searched the Threads for an Hour now)
so a Link or two would be Great

HougH!
Medicineman

Since it's not mentioned in the current errata and the rules on p. 335 don't say that it A) stacks and B) doesn't encumber, I am sorry to disappoint you. But maybe someone with SR4A can help out.

On armor stacking: Old Post

On treatment for encumbrance rules: Armor modifiers don´t count for armor stacking, as per encumbrance rules (pg. 148 German SR4).

The Encumbrance and Armor (not) stacking rules only talk about worn armor. So unless you can take off the cyberlimb armor and put it on a coathanger, this rules are irrelevant. The same goes for bone lacing, dermal plating/sheath, orthoskin, and magic (spell or adept power) etc. Do you think the dermal deposits of trolls encumber them?

@Ryu: That must be a false translation. Unless otherwise specified armor modifiers(i.e helmets or shields) apply to both the protective value and the encumberance value.


I remember having had this discussion with Medicineman/Medizinmann a while back on www.sr-nexus.de. Unfortunately I cannot find that thread anymore.
[Edit]Found it! [Edit]

*shrugs*
i told them exactly that.
let me paraphrase the answer:"quote or did not happen!"
only noticeable exception from this rule is the surge armor. for whatever reason.

So there you go.

Hmmm,
I meant that Cyberlimb Armor is cumulative by itself
having /f.E.) two Cyberlegs and two Points Armor in each means you have 4 Bal and 4 Imp
I need sth official for that

That you can add 'warearmor with worn Armor is no Problem....
But I can't find the official Statement that If your Having (f.E.) 3 Points from Orthoskin an 4 Points from said Cyberlegs and a CON of 3 that the encumberance Rules for worn Armor doesn't count for said ' warearmor
(Pointing out that the Encumberance Rules are only for worn armor is not enough for the other side)

HougH!
Medicineman

Then I can't help you.

Well, from SR4A...



Thus we know Cyberlimb armor is Ballistic and Impact. We also know that it's cumulative with worn armor. This also establishes that it is a separate entity from worn armor.



It's rather clear to me. Only worn armor counts for encumbrance. Cyberlimb armor does NOT. It's part of the cyberlimb. Cyberlimb armor works no differently than a Troll's Dermal deposits.

It's rather clear to me. Only worn armor counts for encumbrance. Cyberlimb armor does NOT. It's part of the cyberlimb. Cyberlimb armor works no differently than a Troll's Dermal deposits.
For Me too
But I need some official Statements to make it clear to those I'm discussing with

we're dancing on the same side
Medicineman

Your best bet would be to look for errata on the main SR4 site and search for Dev commentary here.

You may also want to PM Adam or Synner and ask them directly if you cannot find a comment by them using search.

Alternatively, you may want to rig a situation that shows why it only applies to worn armor. Work up a cyberlimb user that has armor in excess from just cyberlimbs and have him wear no armor.

IMO the armor of cyberlimbs should not count toward encumberance, it's part of what the body has become so it shouldn't count as armor worn (if you want to rule that the weight of the armor could slow down the wearer you can rule that the cyberlimb has to have BOTH strenght and body attributes equal or greater than the armor value or have the armor exceding the lower of the two attributes count toward the armor worn value).

A bit out of topic, has been stated anywhere if Altskin adds to the armor worn? In my opinion it shouldn't but I would like to hear how canon is supposed to be.

isn't alt-skin only a modification of what's allready there? O.o
what kind of bonus does this alt skin confer? and how is the description worded?

I apologize if you made this clear earlier and I missed it but ... why?

because the other side of this "discussion" is vehemently trying to argue the point that implanted armor does, in fact, count towards encumberance and is not ready to move from that position untill there's an official looking quote from somewhere . . preferably one they can look up somewhere else . . and then by pointing out one certain kind of wording they will still say it is the way they say it is . .

The way I always saw it was: Average the cyber armor of all 6 limbs (arms, legs, torso, head). Add this to your armor value from all other sources. Does not affect encumbrance.

But I can't give you a citation

Except that we've been told that armor on one limb (say, a cyberfoot) does add to the total directly.

Crap, I must have missed that somehow. Citation please?

It's on the forums somewhere. Or at least I recall seeing it in the last three weeks.

Edit: Found a reference
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=567285

And that is one of the main problems in what i will call a heated discussion:
no official statements to be found on that matter anywhere somehow . .

That makes cyber armor pretty much useless, max bonus you can get to your armor is 4 if you have full cybernetic body, with one cyber arm you can't get any as 4/6 is less then one.
At htis point you can pretty much just remove it from the book compledly.

Point. Though my character is getting everything but skull, so he can still get a bit of an armor boost.

While yes, one limb having cyberarmor doesn't help in that regards, it's silly to use up all the slots possible on a cyberfoot and get +4/+4 to your armor.

Two armored cyberfeet is just as good as an armored jacket!

In SR4A, a partial limb's armor counts as half its rating. Even so, that is pretty significant.

Did you pay Essence for that Jacket?
Did you have part of your Skin removed to Attach that Armor?
Is the Jacket VERY expansive and only comes off at a price?
No?
Thought so.
If external gets siginificantly better than implant, who would use implant?
Further: your +4+4 Foot is not the Problem you are having.
The Problem you are having is the Abscence of Hit-Locations and the abstract Armor/Damage-System.
Next Time you are wearing all that shiney Armor?
Yeah, guess what, Aimed shot right into your eye, no armor, bang, you are dead.

Also keep in mind that armor is Capacity-intensive. You can't put in that nifty Olfactory Sensor or Nanohive etc. if you fill it up completely with armor. Either of which is more useful than an extra point or two IMO.

If you substract all armor from your dicepool, no problem, but not everyone has a dicepool larger than 20.

I know that this is a pretty large abstraction, but I'm fine with it. If you want to have all the details you should play rolemaster.

I do no thave my books with me, but I believe under the take aim rules speak of called shots. In called shots it says that the usual place a shoot aims for is the trunk of the body, the larges part of the target. But one could take aim and call a part of the body, even the highly armored cyber feet previously spoke of. And I assumed that armored cyber limbs were to defend from those shots.

So the only truely effective cybered armored limb is the torso. But even this seems off. So they mention the cyber limb rule that states the attibutes of a cyber limb must be avaraged when in concern of the test at hand. But then some state that Armor is not an attribute (but I chose to interpert the use of the word "attribute" as "a quality possesed by" opposed to an offical game term). But how many do you avarage? The BBB sells six different limbs with more divisions. Divide by 6? Bionic 6?

So then there are those you say you should use all armor point bought as full armor. So buy 4 points for each of six full limbs, and go into any combat with +24 to your already worn armor. You're unstoppable. AAAARRRRGGLLLLPPPHHTT!!!

So why don't you avarage the armor bought per limb you bought and add it to worn armor. EX. 4 armor on 2 arms and 6 on one leg for an armor bonus of (4+4+6=14/3=4.6666 round up to) +5 a nice an reasonably potent armor. But then this suggests that buying one armored limb full out (+6?)will give you (6/1=) +6. That's one hell of a shield, especially if it is a foot. Do you always lead with that limb in combat?

Wait, what did I just say?

Pick a limb to lead with in combat, or choose one at the time of an enemy strike to apply that armor bonus. Surprize attacks (generally made to torso) don't get that bonus. Armor bonus still applies to the called shot. Attacks from the left get the left and center limbs, attacks from the right get right and center limbs, avaraged buy applied limbs or just cyber applied limbs.

This may be a problem that the story details at any given moment must decide how it works with in the rules that have been printed. Then what to do with meglomaniacal GMs?

(Don't play with them)

Too bad you don't have the books, reading would clarify a lot of things.Nope, you cannot target a specific location. You have four distinct options:

• avoid all armor.
• Increase damage by substracting dice from the dicepool
• disarm
• effect the target in a certain way e.g blind it, destroy a tire etc.

See p. 161 of SR4A or p. 149 f. of SR4

Not unstoppable but highly armored, as it should be with a freaking metal body!
This is not hardened armor or a body of +24, so negative AP works pretty good.
BTW 24 is not possible due to capacity restrictions, not even with the bulk modification from Augmentation.
As I said before in SR4 you cannot specifically target the foot, and Cyberlimb Armor only goes up to 4.

The Armor value is always a combination of the energy absorbing quality of the material and the area that the material covers. Look at worn armor. At least three different armors have a value of 6/4, and thus protect equally. The Chameleon Suit covers the whole body and has to be made out of the least resistant material; the Lined Coat covers only the torso, arms and upper legs, so it must be made out of more resistant material; lastly the Armor Vest only protects the torso and as such is made of the most resistant material.

On a related note, in your world does only the helmet protect against head shots? If so, consider that the helmet accompanying the Full Body Armor of the BBB, which should be made out of fairly resistant material, protects against headshots just as well as a leather jacket against torso shots. This is just plain weird.
Excuse my french but RTFM!

Why wouldn't a surprise attack target a specific unarmored location, if the attacker had time to aim?

Just to make sure in your "realistic" world, can you shoot someone into his unarmored pinky and kill him? If you introduce hit locations without totally rewriting the combat section, this should be possible.

There is no problem if you describe what happens after the rolls have been made.

Actually, while 24 armour is not likely it is quite possible to get 22, and with no need for bulk mods as capacity wont come into it.
2xArms, 2xLegs and Torso with 4 points each (8 capacity) gives 20 straight off, and a cyber-skull with 2 (4 capacity)
Full limbs count their full armour to your armour rating, so thats 22 plus whatever you are wearing. So likely to be 30+ armour.
Of course, all that armour wont help you a damn against a taser or other electrical based attacks. And in my experience stun damage tends to be the downfall of heavily armoured characters as they have a shorter stun track.

I too recall seeing a dev someplace stating that armoured cyberware is cumulative with itself, and again with worn armour. Truly it can make someone literally bullet proof, which considering the cost seems reasonable. That being said, going full borg is not really intended in SR, so there's no reason it should come up.

Not intended? O.o
did i miss something?
You can do that without going cyber-zombie . .
Heck, there's the Cybork in SR4 now o.O
Further, with that kind of Armor, even a full long narrow burst of autofire with ex-ex ammo will be doing stum-damage . . yes . .
but how many boxes? righto, too many, you black out. and then you are dead no matter what, as neither your eyes, nor your ears, nor your mouth or some other orifice is armored.
in this case, less can actually be more, as absurd as it sounds . . if your armor is less than the damage, you get physical, but you are more likely to resist . .
yes, stun damage is still as broken as it allways was, especially with toxins and stick and shock ammo and the like. .
And ALLWAYS take the 30+ Armor with a grain of salt, as we have not yet seen any official statement as to wether or not implant-armor counts towards encumberance or not . .

hey, do not forget that burst fire do not stack for armor penetration reasons...

Nonetheless it stacks for damage, which probably be stun, as Stahlseele pointed out.

@Stahlseele: How is physical damage easier to soak?

because Body and armor is easier to pump up than will-power for example. also, longer physical tracks so it does not matter quite as much.

if the damage is less than armour and causes stun, you still resist it with body+armour. Its just the damage type that is changed.

indeed, it would make for some nasty stun damage.

But the size of your stun damage track is dictated by Willpower, so it's still easier to knock out the troll than kill him by a large margin. And if he's wearing enough armor, you might just knock him out with full-auto explosive fire

to some degree yes, but if you are going full borg from character creation you can drop your natural physical stats to straight ones in except for reaction, letting you start off with a kickin will.

Even reaction doesn't have to be that high - MBW gives +6, or Synaptic Boosters/Wired Reflexes +3. And you can add reflex boosters on top of that ^_^

If you're really going full (cy)borg, just remember that Stun damage has little effect on your vehicular body.

Very funny