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Medicineman
Hello Everybody
I'm having a little Discussion and I'm looking for Official Statements that
A)Cyberlimb Armor stacks
B) Cyberlimb Armor doesn't hinder/encumber a Char like worn Armor
I Know that for a fact,but I can't find Official statements for the unbelievers (i've searched the Threads for an Hour now)
so a Link or two would be Great smile.gif

HougH!
Medicineman
Uli
Since it's not mentioned in the current errata and the rules on p. 335 don't say that it A) stacks and B) doesn't encumber, I am sorry to disappoint you. But maybe someone with SR4A can help out.
Ryu
On armor stacking: Old Post

On treatment for encumbrance rules: Armor modifiers don´t count for armor stacking, as per encumbrance rules (pg. 148 German SR4).
Dakka Dakka
The Encumbrance and Armor (not) stacking rules only talk about worn armor. So unless you can take off the cyberlimb armor and put it on a coathanger, this rules are irrelevant. The same goes for bone lacing, dermal plating/sheath, orthoskin, and magic (spell or adept power) etc. Do you think the dermal deposits of trolls encumber them?

@Ryu: That must be a false translation. Unless otherwise specified armor modifiers(i.e helmets or shields) apply to both the protective value and the encumberance value.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 172")
If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body.


I remember having had this discussion with Medicineman/Medizinmann a while back on www.sr-nexus.de. Unfortunately I cannot find that thread anymore.
[Edit]Found it! biggrin.gif[Edit]
Stahlseele
*shrugs*
i told them exactly that.
let me paraphrase the answer:"quote or did not happen!"
only noticeable exception from this rule is the surge armor. for whatever reason.
Mx
QUOTE (SR4A page 344)
Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic
and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.

So there you go.
Medicineman
Hmmm,smile.gif
I meant that Cyberlimb Armor is cumulative by itself
having /f.E.) two Cyberlegs and two Points Armor in each means you have 4 Bal and 4 Imp
I need sth official for that

That you can add 'warearmor with worn Armor is no Problem....
But I can't find the official Statement that If your Having (f.E.) 3 Points from Orthoskin an 4 Points from said Cyberlegs and a CON of 3 that the encumberance Rules for worn Armor doesn't count for said ' warearmor
(Pointing out that the Encumberance Rules are only for worn armor is not enough for the other side)

HougH!
Medicineman
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 3 2009, 03:12 PM) *
(Pointing out that the Encumberance Rules are only for worn armor is not enough for the other side)
Then I can't help you.
darthmord
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 3 2009, 08:12 AM) *
Hmmm,smile.gif
I meant that Cyberlimb Armor is cumulative by itself
having /f.E.) two Cyberlegs and two Points Armor in each means you have 4 Bal and 4 Imp
I need sth official for that

That you can add 'warearmor with worn Armor is no Problem....
But I can't find the official Statement that If your Having (f.E.) 3 Points from Orthoskin an 4 Points from said Cyberlegs and a CON of 3 that the encumberance Rules for worn Armor doesn't count for said ' warearmor
(Pointing out that the Encumberance Rules are only for worn armor is not enough for the other side)

HougH!
Medicineman


Well, from SR4A...

QUOTE (SR4A, Page 344, Cyberlimb Enhancements)
Cyberlimb Enhancements
Cyberlimb enhancements use up the Capacity of the cyberlimb they
enhance. There are four different types of enhancements available:
Body, Agility, Strength, or Armor enhancements. Physical Attribute
enhancements come in ratings equal to the Attribute bonus they provide.
Armor enhancements installed on cyberlimbs are both Ballistic
and Impact, and it is cumulative with all forms of worn armor.


Thus we know Cyberlimb armor is Ballistic and Impact. We also know that it's cumulative with worn armor. This also establishes that it is a separate entity from worn armor.

QUOTE (SR4A, Page 161, Armor and Encumbrance)
Armor and Encumbrance
If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only
the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that
some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the
worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.
Too much armor, however, can slow a character down. If either of
a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier
to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that
his Body x 2 is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If
a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together
before comparing to Body.


It's rather clear to me. Only worn armor counts for encumbrance. Cyberlimb armor does NOT. It's part of the cyberlimb. Cyberlimb armor works no differently than a Troll's Dermal deposits.
Medicineman
It's rather clear to me. Only worn armor counts for encumbrance. Cyberlimb armor does NOT. It's part of the cyberlimb. Cyberlimb armor works no differently than a Troll's Dermal deposits.
For Me too smile.gif
But I need some official Statements to make it clear to those I'm discussing with

we're dancing on the same side
Medicineman
darthmord
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 3 2009, 09:39 AM) *
It's rather clear to me. Only worn armor counts for encumbrance. Cyberlimb armor does NOT. It's part of the cyberlimb. Cyberlimb armor works no differently than a Troll's Dermal deposits.
For Me too smile.gif
But I need some official Statements to make it clear to those I'm discussing with

we're dancing on the same side
Medicineman


Your best bet would be to look for errata on the main SR4 site and search for Dev commentary here.

You may also want to PM Adam or Synner and ask them directly if you cannot find a comment by them using search.

Alternatively, you may want to rig a situation that shows why it only applies to worn armor. Work up a cyberlimb user that has armor in excess from just cyberlimbs and have him wear no armor.
AllTheNothing
IMO the armor of cyberlimbs should not count toward encumberance, it's part of what the body has become so it shouldn't count as armor worn (if you want to rule that the weight of the armor could slow down the wearer you can rule that the cyberlimb has to have BOTH strenght and body attributes equal or greater than the armor value or have the armor exceding the lower of the two attributes count toward the armor worn value).

A bit out of topic, has been stated anywhere if Altskin adds to the armor worn? In my opinion it shouldn't but I would like to hear how canon is supposed to be.
Stahlseele
isn't alt-skin only a modification of what's allready there? O.o
what kind of bonus does this alt skin confer? and how is the description worded?
Aaron
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 3 2009, 08:39 AM) *
But I need some official Statements to make it clear to those I'm discussing with

I apologize if you made this clear earlier and I missed it but ... why?
Stahlseele
because the other side of this "discussion" is vehemently trying to argue the point that implanted armor does, in fact, count towards encumberance and is not ready to move from that position untill there's an official looking quote from somewhere . . preferably one they can look up somewhere else . . and then by pointing out one certain kind of wording they will still say it is the way they say it is . .
Tyro
The way I always saw it was: Average the cyber armor of all 6 limbs (arms, legs, torso, head). Add this to your armor value from all other sources. Does not affect encumbrance.

But I can't give you a citation frown.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 3 2009, 07:35 PM) *
The way I always saw it was: Average the cyber armor of all 6 limbs (arms, legs, torso, head). Add this to your armor value from all other sources. Does not affect encumbrance.

But I can't give you a citation frown.gif


Except that we've been told that armor on one limb (say, a cyberfoot) does add to the total directly.
Tyro
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 3 2009, 06:38 PM) *
Except that we've been told that armor on one limb (say, a cyberfoot) does add to the total directly.

Crap, I must have missed that somehow. Citation please?
Draco18s
It's on the forums somewhere. Or at least I recall seeing it in the last three weeks.

Edit: Found a reference
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=567285
Stahlseele
And that is one of the main problems in what i will call a heated discussion:
no official statements to be found on that matter anywhere somehow . .
Mx
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 4 2009, 03:35 AM) *
The way I always saw it was: Average the cyber armor of all 6 limbs (arms, legs, torso, head). Add this to your armor value from all other sources. Does not affect encumbrance.

But I can't give you a citation frown.gif

That makes cyber armor pretty much useless, max bonus you can get to your armor is 4 if you have full cybernetic body, with one cyber arm you can't get any as 4/6 is less then one.
At htis point you can pretty much just remove it from the book compledly.
Tyro
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 4 2009, 09:58 AM) *
That makes cyber armor pretty much useless, max bonus you can get to your armor is 4 if you have full cybernetic body, with one cyber arm you can't get any as 4/6 is less then one.
At htis point you can pretty much just remove it from the book compledly.

Point. Though my character is getting everything but skull, so he can still get a bit of an armor boost.
Draco18s
While yes, one limb having cyberarmor doesn't help in that regards, it's silly to use up all the slots possible on a cyberfoot and get +4/+4 to your armor.

Two armored cyberfeet is just as good as an armored jacket!
Tyro
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 4 2009, 11:11 AM) *
While yes, one limb having cyberarmor doesn't help in that regards, it's silly to use up all the slots possible on a cyberfoot and get +4/+4 to your armor.

Two armored cyberfeet is just as good as an armored jacket!

In SR4A, a partial limb's armor counts as half its rating. Even so, that is pretty significant.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 4 2009, 08:11 PM) *
While yes, one limb having cyberarmor doesn't help in that regards, it's silly to use up all the slots possible on a cyberfoot and get +4/+4 to your armor.

Two armored cyberfeet is just as good as an armored jacket!

Did you pay Essence for that Jacket?
Did you have part of your Skin removed to Attach that Armor?
Is the Jacket VERY expansive and only comes off at a price?
No?
Thought so.
If external gets siginificantly better than implant, who would use implant?
Further: your +4+4 Foot is not the Problem you are having.
The Problem you are having is the Abscence of Hit-Locations and the abstract Armor/Damage-System.
Next Time you are wearing all that shiney Armor?
Yeah, guess what, Aimed shot right into your eye, no armor, bang, you are dead.
Tyro
Also keep in mind that armor is Capacity-intensive. You can't put in that nifty Olfactory Sensor or Nanohive etc. if you fill it up completely with armor. Either of which is more useful than an extra point or two IMO.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 4 2009, 08:27 PM) *
The Problem you are having is the Abscence of Hit-Locations and the abstract Armor/Damage-System.
Next Time you are wearing all that shiney Armor?
Yeah, guess what, Aimed shot right into your eye, no armor, bang, you are dead.
If you substract all armor from your dicepool, no problem, but not everyone has a dicepool larger than 20.

I know that this is a pretty large abstraction, but I'm fine with it. If you want to have all the details you should play rolemaster.
Floyd
I do no thave my books with me, but I believe under the take aim rules speak of called shots. In called shots it says that the usual place a shoot aims for is the trunk of the body, the larges part of the target. But one could take aim and call a part of the body, even the highly armored cyber feet previously spoke of. And I assumed that armored cyber limbs were to defend from those shots.

So the only truely effective cybered armored limb is the torso. But even this seems off. So they mention the cyber limb rule that states the attibutes of a cyber limb must be avaraged when in concern of the test at hand. But then some state that Armor is not an attribute (but I chose to interpert the use of the word "attribute" as "a quality possesed by" opposed to an offical game term). But how many do you avarage? The BBB sells six different limbs with more divisions. Divide by 6? Bionic 6?

So then there are those you say you should use all armor point bought as full armor. So buy 4 points for each of six full limbs, and go into any combat with +24 to your already worn armor. You're unstoppable. AAAARRRRGGLLLLPPPHHTT!!!

So why don't you avarage the armor bought per limb you bought and add it to worn armor. EX. 4 armor on 2 arms and 6 on one leg for an armor bonus of (4+4+6=14/3=4.6666 round up to) +5 a nice an reasonably potent armor. But then this suggests that buying one armored limb full out (+6?)will give you (6/1=) +6. That's one hell of a shield, especially if it is a foot. Do you always lead with that limb in combat?

Wait, what did I just say?

Pick a limb to lead with in combat, or choose one at the time of an enemy strike to apply that armor bonus. Surprize attacks (generally made to torso) don't get that bonus. Armor bonus still applies to the called shot. Attacks from the left get the left and center limbs, attacks from the right get right and center limbs, avaraged buy applied limbs or just cyber applied limbs.

This may be a problem that the story details at any given moment must decide how it works with in the rules that have been printed. Then what to do with meglomaniacal GMs?

(Don't play with them)
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Floyd @ Apr 20 2009, 07:28 AM) *
I do no thave my books with me, but I believe under the take aim rules speak of called shots.
Too bad you don't have the books, reading would clarify a lot of things.
QUOTE
In called shots it says that the usual place a shoot aims for is the trunk of the body, the larges part of the target. But one could take aim and call a part of the body, even the highly armored cyber feet previously spoke of. And I assumed that armored cyber limbs were to defend from those shots.
Nope, you cannot target a specific location. You have four distinct options:
  • avoid all armor.
  • Increase damage by substracting dice from the dicepool
  • disarm
  • effect the target in a certain way e.g blind it, destroy a tire etc.

See p. 161 of SR4A or p. 149 f. of SR4

QUOTE
So then there are those you say you should use all armor point bought as full armor. So buy 4 points for each of six full limbs, and go into any combat with +24 to your already worn armor. You're unstoppable. AAAARRRRGGLLLLPPPHHTT!!!
Not unstoppable but highly armored, as it should be with a freaking metal body!
This is not hardened armor or a body of +24, so negative AP works pretty good.
BTW 24 is not possible due to capacity restrictions, not even with the bulk modification from Augmentation.
QUOTE
So why don't you avarage the armor bought per limb you bought and add it to worn armor. EX. 4 armor on 2 arms and 6 on one leg for an armor bonus of (4+4+6=14/3=4.6666 round up to) +5 a nice an reasonably potent armor. But then this suggests that buying one armored limb full out (+6?)will give you (6/1=) +6. That's one hell of a shield, especially if it is a foot. Do you always lead with that limb in combat?
As I said before in SR4 you cannot specifically target the foot, and Cyberlimb Armor only goes up to 4.

The Armor value is always a combination of the energy absorbing quality of the material and the area that the material covers. Look at worn armor. At least three different armors have a value of 6/4, and thus protect equally. The Chameleon Suit covers the whole body and has to be made out of the least resistant material; the Lined Coat covers only the torso, arms and upper legs, so it must be made out of more resistant material; lastly the Armor Vest only protects the torso and as such is made of the most resistant material.

On a related note, in your world does only the helmet protect against head shots? If so, consider that the helmet accompanying the Full Body Armor of the BBB, which should be made out of fairly resistant material, protects against headshots just as well as a leather jacket against torso shots. This is just plain weird.
QUOTE
Pick a limb to lead with in combat, or choose one at the time of an enemy strike to apply that armor bonus. Surprize attacks (generally made to torso) don't get that bonus. Armor bonus still applies to the called shot. Attacks from the left get the left and center limbs, attacks from the right get right and center limbs, avaraged buy applied limbs or just cyber applied limbs.
Excuse my french but RTFM!

Why wouldn't a surprise attack target a specific unarmored location, if the attacker had time to aim?

Just to make sure in your "realistic" world, can you shoot someone into his unarmored pinky and kill him? If you introduce hit locations without totally rewriting the combat section, this should be possible.silly.gif

QUOTE
This may be a problem that the story details at any given moment must decide how it works with in the rules that have been printed.
There is no problem if you describe what happens after the rolls have been made.
crazyconscript
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 20 2009, 08:36 AM) *
[snip]
Not unstoppable but highly armored, as it should be with a freaking metal body!
This is not hardened armor or a body of +24, so negative AP works pretty good.
BTW 24 is not possible due to capacity restrictions, not even with the bulk modification from Augmentation.
As I said before in SR4 you cannot specifically target the foot, and Cyberlimb Armor only goes up to 4.
[/snip]

Actually, while 24 armour is not likely it is quite possible to get 22, and with no need for bulk mods as capacity wont come into it.
2xArms, 2xLegs and Torso with 4 points each (8 capacity) gives 20 straight off, and a cyber-skull with 2 (4 capacity)
Full limbs count their full armour to your armour rating, so thats 22 plus whatever you are wearing. So likely to be 30+ armour.
Of course, all that armour wont help you a damn against a taser or other electrical based attacks. And in my experience stun damage tends to be the downfall of heavily armoured characters as they have a shorter stun track.

ornot
I too recall seeing a dev someplace stating that armoured cyberware is cumulative with itself, and again with worn armour. Truly it can make someone literally bullet proof, which considering the cost seems reasonable. That being said, going full borg is not really intended in SR, so there's no reason it should come up.
Stahlseele
Not intended? O.o
did i miss something?
You can do that without going cyber-zombie . .
Heck, there's the Cybork in SR4 now o.O
Further, with that kind of Armor, even a full long narrow burst of autofire with ex-ex ammo will be doing stum-damage . . yes . .
but how many boxes? righto, too many, you black out. and then you are dead no matter what, as neither your eyes, nor your ears, nor your mouth or some other orifice is armored.
in this case, less can actually be more, as absurd as it sounds . . if your armor is less than the damage, you get physical, but you are more likely to resist . .
yes, stun damage is still as broken as it allways was, especially with toxins and stick and shock ammo and the like. .
And ALLWAYS take the 30+ Armor with a grain of salt, as we have not yet seen any official statement as to wether or not implant-armor counts towards encumberance or not . .
hobgoblin
hey, do not forget that burst fire do not stack for armor penetration reasons...
Dakka Dakka
Nonetheless it stacks for damage, which probably be stun, as Stahlseele pointed out.

@Stahlseele: How is physical damage easier to soak?
Stahlseele
because Body and armor is easier to pump up than will-power for example. also, longer physical tracks so it does not matter quite as much.
crazyconscript
if the damage is less than armour and causes stun, you still resist it with body+armour. Its just the damage type that is changed.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 21 2009, 08:54 AM) *
Nonetheless it stacks for damage, which probably be stun, as Stahlseele pointed out.

indeed, it would make for some nasty stun damage.
Tyro
QUOTE (crazyconscript @ Apr 21 2009, 02:10 AM) *
if the damage is less than armour and causes stun, you still resist it with body+armour. Its just the damage type that is changed.

But the size of your stun damage track is dictated by Willpower, so it's still easier to knock out the troll than kill him by a large margin. And if he's wearing enough armor, you might just knock him out with full-auto explosive fire nyahnyah.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 21 2009, 06:21 PM) *
But the size of your stun damage track is dictated by Willpower, so it's still easier to knock out the troll than kill him by a large margin. And if he's wearing enough armor, you might just knock him out with full-auto explosive fire nyahnyah.gif


to some degree yes, but if you are going full borg from character creation you can drop your natural physical stats to straight ones in except for reaction, letting you start off with a kickin will.
Tyro
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 21 2009, 08:13 PM) *
to some degree yes, but if you are going full borg from character creation you can drop your natural physical stats to straight ones in except for reaction, letting you start off with a kickin will.

Even reaction doesn't have to be that high - MBW gives +6, or Synaptic Boosters/Wired Reflexes +3. And you can add reflex boosters on top of that ^_^
HappyDaze
If you're really going full (cy)borg, just remember that Stun damage has little effect on your vehicular body.
Tyro
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Apr 21 2009, 09:20 PM) *
If you're really going full (cy)borg, just remember that Stun damage has little effect on your vehicular body.

Very funny cyber.gif
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