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Stingray
I got major fight with my Gm,both have different opinion of the cost of
firewall 5 for commlink. I made BBB hacker for him but still..
Would anyone point me errors of my calculations. (Long post!!9

150 00 yen Hacker eq:

AR gloves 250 yen
Hammerli 620s 650 yen
9x spare clips 45 yen
60 regular rounds 120 yen
Armor vest 600 yen
Biometric reader 200 yen
20 different VR games 1000 yen
Virtual surround music 50 yen
2 months Low lifestyle 4000 yen
4 fake Sins (R4) 16000 yen
------------------------------------------
22915 yen

Programs
Analyze (R5) 500 yen
Armor (R4) 4000 yen
Attack (R5) 5000 yen
Biofeedback filter (R4) 4000 yen
Black hammer (R4) 4000 yen
Browse (R5) 500 yen
Command ((R5) 500 yen
Databomb (R3) 3000 yen
Decrypt (R3) 3000 yen
Edit (R5) 500 yen
Encrypt (R5) 500 yen
Scan (R5) 500 yen
Stealth (R5) 5000 yen
Track (R4) 4000 yen
---------------------------------------------
39000 yen

Cyber/Bioware
(B) Enchanted Articulation 40000 yen
(B) Sleeep Regulator 10000 yen
(B) Skin Pocket 5000 yen
Datalock (Encryption R5) 3500 yen
Datajack 500 yen
Cybereyes (R3) 4850 yen (eyes 1000Y,flare comp. 750Y,low-light 1000Y,s-link 1000Y,thermog.vis. 1000y,protec.covers 100Y
Control Rig 10000 yen
Commlink 11150 yen
------------------------------------------------
81 540yen

Cyberware Commlink (Sony Emperor (modified for BTL/Hot Sim ) 2950 yen
(Responce 2, Signal 3) (NO Firewall,NO System)
Firewall 1 (Firewall 0 -> Firewall 1) 200 yen
Firewall 2 (Firewall 1 -> Firewall 2) 200 yen
Firewall 3 (Firewall 2 -> Firewall 3) 200 yen
Firewall 4 (Firewall 3 -> Firewall 4) 500 yen
Firewall 5 (Firewall 4 -> Firewall 5) 500 yen
System 1 (System 0 -> System 1) 200 yen
System 2 (System 1 -> System 2) 200 yen
System 3 (System 2 -> System 3 200 yen
System 4 (System 3 -> System 4) 500 yen
System 5 (System 4 -> System 5) 500 yen
Responce 5 4000 yen (BBB page 240)
Signal 5 1000 yen (BBB page 240)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11 150 yen

So full cost of BBB Hacker is 149 315 yen, 15 yen over, when rolling starting money,"GM" apperently forgive it..
I know.. it was long but it was complete..


I finally found mistake...datalock 1000 + Encryption is common use.. ratingx100 yen, not ratingx1000 yen.. my bad..sorry.i guess GM was right..
Malachi
I had always played it that you just pay for the rating that you want. For Firewall 5 you pay 5 x 500 = 2,500 nuyen.gif
Stingray
That was his point too..but can you point error to calculations? ohplease.gif
Malachi
QUOTE (Stingray @ Apr 7 2009, 07:57 AM) *
Cyberware Commlink (Sony Emperor (modified for BTL/Hot Sim ) 2950 yen
(Responce 2, Signal 3) (NO Firewall,NO System)
Firewall 5 2,500 yen
System 5 2,500 yen
Responce 5 4,000 yen (BBB page 240)
Signal 5 1,000 yen (BBB page 240)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10,000 yen

This should be the cost for the Commlink.
cryptoknight
The prices are for the final rating, not something you pay one rating at a time.

cryptoknight
QUOTE (Malachi @ Apr 7 2009, 10:18 AM) *
This should be the cost for the Commlink.



Well don't forget the cost of the commlink smile.gif

So 12950
raggedhalo
The BBB starting characters are not necessarily built according to maths that normal humans can understand. It's best not to use them for...well, anything, really.
Stingray
QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Apr 7 2009, 05:20 PM) *
Well don't forget the cost of the commlink smile.gif

So 12950


Cyberware 2000 yen+Sony Emperpor Commlink 700 yen+modification to BTL/Hot sim 250 yen=2950 yen.
Malachi
QUOTE (Stingray @ Apr 7 2009, 10:20 AM) *
Cyberware 2000 yen+Sony Emperpor Commlink 700 yen+modification to BTL/Hot sim 250 yen=2950 yen.

Right 2950 for the basic Cyberware Commlink with Hot Sim modification, and then 10,000 (as I listed above) for the Response, System, Firewall, and Signal increase.
Stingray
I know now.. embarrassed.gif
but what is a point buying implanted commlink and operating system?
non-cyberware commlink is way better by just adding others:

Transys Avalon (Responce 4, Signal 4) 5000 yen
Signal 5 1000 yen
Firewall 6 3000 yen
System 5 2500 yen

11 500 yen..and no need to improve it anymore..
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stingray @ Apr 7 2009, 11:18 AM) *
I know now.. embarrassed.gif
but what is a point buying implanted commlink and operating system?
non-cyberware commlink is way better by just adding others:

Transys Avalon (Responce 4, Signal 4) 5000 yen
Signal 5 1000 yen
Firewall 6 3000 yen
System 5 2500 yen

11 500 yen..and no need to improve it anymore..


You do know that ANY commlink can be implanted, right?
Stingray
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 8 2009, 05:40 AM) *
You do know that ANY commlink can be implanted, right?

yes, i know.. 2000 yen + commlink cost, but implanted commlink and technomancer
"witch-hunt" is not good combination. Saving essence and cash making
non-implanted much better..
paws2sky
QUOTE (Stingray @ Apr 8 2009, 12:42 AM) *
yes, i know.. 2000 yen + commlink cost, but implanted commlink and technomancer
"witch-hunt" is not good combination. Saving essence and cash making
non-implanted much better..


Also much easier to ditch an incriminating commlink if you don't have to go into the Street Doc to get something yanked out of your head.

-paws
Malachi
Very true. It has been stated in the fluff that implanted commlinks are becoming less common in the 2070's. The advantage with an implanted commlink is that it is not easy to detect, nor is it easy to disable or take away from you. It's a perfect match for a character using a 2 commlink (public and private) system.
Malachi
QUOTE (Stingray @ Apr 7 2009, 11:18 AM) *
Transys Avalon (Responce 4, Signal 4) 5000 yen
Signal 5 1000 yen
Firewall 6 3000 yen
System 5 2500 yen

11 500 yen..and no need to improve it anymore..

Keep in mind that the rating of System (and thus the rating of all programs) is limited by Response. So in this case you have a Response 4 commlink with a System 5, so the System would actually run at 4. Unless you upgraded the Response as well, of course.
Stingray
QUOTE (Malachi @ Apr 8 2009, 05:59 PM) *
Very true. It has been stated in the fluff that implanted commlinks are becoming less common in the 2070's. The advantage with an implanted commlink is that it is not easy to detect, nor is it easy to disable or take away from you. It's a perfect match for a character using a 2 commlink (public and private) system.


Skinlinked commlink in hidden mode under clothes with self-destruct modification..
Degausser
QUOTE (Stingray @ Apr 8 2009, 01:52 PM) *
Skinlinked commlink hidden under clothes would not be the same?


There are three advantages to an implanted commlink, and a slew of disadvantages. Personally, I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, but that is just me.

1) Commlink is not as detectable. Even if you have your decked-out commlink hidden under your armor (or heck, even woven into your clothes.) it can still bee 'seen.' Someone can pat you down, or see the commlink's circuitry upon close inspection. However, if you have a cranial commlink, the most someone can tell without an MRI is that you have some headware modifications. Just turn off your commlink and make sure you have a datajack, and security will have a tough time detecting it.

2) Commlink is not removable. Even if someone DETECTS your cranial commlink, what are they gonna do? They can't take it away from you without cybersurgery. If a place requires you to check in your personal commlink, and use theirs . . . what are they gonna do if you have a cranial commlink? The most they can do is lock you in a wifi-proof room . . . . something that a high signal and ECCM can take care of.

3) Commlink is not easy to analyze. If you have a normal commlink modified for BTL HOTSIM, then anyone that gets ahold of that comm will be able to tell that it has some illegal mods. However, you are you going to tell a legit cranial commlink from an illegal one?
Stingray
QUOTE (Malachi @ Apr 8 2009, 06:01 PM) *
Keep in mind that the rating of System (and thus the rating of all programs) is limited by Response. So in this case you have a Response 4 commlink with a System 5, so the System would actually run at 4. Unless you upgraded the Response as well, of course.


Firewall is not limited to Responce..
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Degausser @ Apr 8 2009, 09:08 PM) *
There are three advantages to an implanted commlink, and a slew of disadvantages. Personally, I think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, but that is just me.

1) Commlink is not as detectable. Even if you have your decked-out commlink hidden under your armor (or heck, even woven into your clothes.) it can still bee 'seen.' Someone can pat you down, or see the commlink's circuitry upon close inspection. However, if you have a cranial commlink, the most someone can tell without an MRI is that you have some headware modifications. Just turn off your commlink and make sure you have a datajack, and security will have a tough time detecting it.

There is a sensor in Arsenal named "Non-Linear Junction Detector" that can detect even elettronics that aren't powered, probably you won't find it often but in high security places it's probably used in choke points for accessing sensitive locations (airports, high security corporate facilities, runner's doss, etc.), if you want to approach a target without the security knowing about your comlink you are better smuggle it in using other approaches.



QUOTE (Degausser @ Apr 8 2009, 09:08 PM) *
2) Commlink is not removable. Even if someone DETECTS your cranial commlink, what are they gonna do? They can't take it away from you without cybersurgery. If a place requires you to check in your personal commlink, and use theirs . . . what are they gonna do if you have a cranial commlink? The most they can do is lock you in a wifi-proof room . . . . something that a high signal and ECCM can take care of.

It's a problem only if you want to keep the wetware intact, if not it's just an incentive to plug a bullet into it; it could also give problems with EMPs (the DNI is into the brain) and there's the risk of being hacked (if they hack your external comlink and force you into VR you can always try to physicaly turn it off and/or to trow it away, doing the same with the implanted version is a bit hard).
Also the ECCM reduce the interference of wireless noice (ECM, jammers) not the absence of signal, in order to defeat it you need a signal strong enough to pierce the isolating material on both sides of the comunication, otherwise you are either unable to trasmit or unable to recive (or unable to do either of the two).



QUOTE (Degausser @ Apr 8 2009, 09:08 PM) *
3) Commlink is not easy to analyze. If you have a normal commlink modified for BTL HOTSIM, then anyone that gets ahold of that comm will be able to tell that it has some illegal mods. However, you are you going to tell a legit cranial commlink from an illegal one?

True enough, the question is do people realy give a frag about it?
ICPiK
We have a player with a headware com and he hasn't seemed to have any problems yet. It just seems easier this way but it is kinda scary.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 8 2009, 07:58 AM) *
Also much easier to ditch an incriminating commlink if you don't have to go into the Street Doc to get something yanked out of your head.

-paws


True... But sometimes, the concept is just too good to shy away from...
My latest Character... he has 5 Comlinks... 1 Implanted, 3 Linked and one for all of the Public Stuff, which I generally ignore anyway...

It was a design that I just had to do...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Apr 8 2009, 02:36 PM) *
There is a sensor in Arsenal named "Non-Linear Junction Detector" that can detect even elettronics that aren't powered, probably you won't find it often but in high security places it's probably used in choke points for accessing sensitive locations (airports, high security corporate facilities, runner's doss, etc.), if you want to approach a target without the security knowing about your comlink you are better smuggle it in using other approaches.


However, it will still just read as Headware... exactly what it is would still be unknown... you just have electronics in your head...
Malachi
QUOTE (Stingray @ Apr 8 2009, 01:12 PM) *
Firewall is not limited to Responce..

You're right. When I referred to "programs" my intention was not to include Firewall. I know the fluff describes it as a software Firewall (and thus it is technically a "program") I've never categorized it as such because it is one of the 4 attributes of a commlink. All the other stuff that you buy and run on it (Analyze, Browse, Attack), those are what I was referring to as "programs."
Writer
Firewall is not limited by Response? (Does that mean it is not limited by System, either?) Huh! I just assumed it was another "program". Is there a reference for this rule, or is it the lack of reference of Firewall as a program that indicates it is not limited?
Angier
Firewall is NOT a Program. Following your logic, System would limit System. As Firewall is an independent commlink attribute it is not limited by any other commlink attribute.
Degausser
It's best to think about it this way. Firewall isn't an active program (like a videogame or your Black Hammer.) Instead, it is a small program that runs alongside your OS (your OS doesn't count as a program either.). It just monitors your ports and makes sure everything is copasetic. In other words:

Lets take an example of two, real life 'edit' programs. MS paint, and Adobe Photoshop. Now, MS paint is a VERY simple program. It allows some routine editing, but it doesn't have a lot of 'horsepower.' There are no filters, no layers, and the options for tools are pretty small. Let's pretend that it is an Edit program Rating 1. Now Photoshop is an edit program rating 4. It is much more powerful, capable of doing many more things, but also requires much more CPU power, and may even lower your computer's 'speed' (a.k.a. response.)

On the other hand, Firewalls simply monitor things going into and out of your computer. They don't take up too much processing power, and the only difference in them is how thoroughly they do their job. A rating 1 firewall might only prevent the most basic or blunt attacks, whereas a rating 5 firewall is designed to recognize all the latest pieces of malware, along with the latest hacker exploits. Technically, the second firewall uses up uses up a bit more computing power, but the change is not nearly as drastic as the difference between Paint and Photoshop.

So, a firewall is like a program in that you download it, can code it, and can buy it. However, it is NOT like a program in that it doesn't take anything to run and isn't affected by your computer's response. At least, that is what I gathered from Shadowrun.

AND YES, yes, I know that the above is not strictly true 100% of the time. Some guys can come and complain to me about how some programs (like the Norton Security suit) are recourse hogs (considering other firewalls), but let's remember, shadowrun isn't a programming simulator or a gun modding simulator or a car modding simulator. It is an RPG that has a lot of ground to cover, so they tend to gloss over and over-simplify things.
Stingray
QUOTE (Writer @ Apr 10 2009, 12:00 PM) *
Firewall is not limited by Response? (Does that mean it is not limited by System, either?) Huh! I just assumed it was another "program". Is there a reference for this rule, or is it the lack of reference of Firewall as a program that indicates it is not limited?


Catalyst Game Labs, Shadowrun RPG: FAQ: Does the maximum program rating limited by the System rating apply also Firewall? Can You have a node
with a Firewall rating higher than System?
A: That limitation only applies to regular Software (common use and hacking programs) not the Firewall rotate.gif
Writer
Thanks everybody for the lessons (long and short).
Now, I find myself thinking, "Why any shadowrunner would skimp on Firewall is beyond me."
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Writer @ Apr 10 2009, 06:54 AM) *
Thanks everybody for the lessons (long and short).

Now, I find myself thinking, "Why any shadowrunner would skimp on Firewall is beyond me."


I would also think that Encrypt 6 with Ergonomic and Optimization 2 would also be another default program to be running on your 'link all the time.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Writer @ Apr 10 2009, 01:54 PM) *
Thanks everybody for the lessons (long and short).
Now, I find myself thinking, "Why any shadowrunner would skimp on Firewall is beyond me."

QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Apr 10 2009, 02:37 PM) *
I would also think that Encrypt 6 with Ergonomic and Optimization 2 would also be another default program to be running on your 'link all the time.

People might want to give priority to attributes and skills at chargen, chosing to upgrade later in game; however once the character has enough money upgrading the matrix security is a must (the best would be the team's hacker to code it).
KCKitsune
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Apr 10 2009, 11:55 AM) *
People might want to give priority to attributes and skills at chargen, chosing to upgrade later in game; however once the character has enough money upgrading the matrix security is a must (the best would be the team's hacker to code it).


You know how much it would cost to get a Firewall 6 and Encrypt 6*? It's 4200 nuyen.gif , but that buys a LOT of piece of mind.

Heck, add in a Colt Manhunter, 3 clips of regular ammo, a leather jacket, glasses with Lowlight (or thermographic) vision and Flare Compensation, and 5 nuyen.gif worth of pocket change and you have a 1 full BP. That isn't that much.



* = Let's assume a middle of the road Novatech Airware and a System to match. The Encrypt would need Optimization 3. The ergonomic option is added just so it can run 24/7 without messing with your other software.
AllTheNothing
@KCKitsune

Novatech Airware: 1'250
Sim Module: 100
Nanopaste Trodes: 100
Skinlink: 50

System 3: 600
Firewall 6: 3'000
Encript 6: (optimization 3, ergonomic) 1'200
Analize 6: (optimization 3, ergonomic) 1'200
Browse 3: 150
Command 3: 150
Edit 3: 150
Reality Filter 3: 150
Scan 3: 150

Total: 8'250 nuyen.gif

Yes you could be right.
KCKitsune
@All: I wasn't including the commlink because I assumed that the commlink was already purchased. If you don't have a commlink then getting firewall 6 and Encrypt 6 is worthless.
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