HAHA, well if you are going the custom route you should port the Stupid Trait from Burning Wheel (Traits effectively analogous to Qualities). Yes, it's actually named "Stupid". It adds +Ob1 (+1 Threshold) to all attempts at social Skills used by the character and used on the character. You aren't going to convince anyone of your wrongheaded ways but damned if they are going to be able to turn our your lightbulb on to defect you from your path. Then there are the ones like Atravieso (a propensity to fiddle with stuff you shouldn't touch, particularly delicate or fragile things). I've played with that Trait in a fellow group member's PC. The turdheaps that Trait would land us in were epic.

Well... lets see.
Attributes in SR4A advance ~14% faster than they did in SR4.
Everything else in SR4A advances 80% faster than it did in SR4.

Because 'everything else' is a lot more than 'attributes', I would estimate the overall increase in advancement rate to be ~65-70%


How did I get these numbers? By not ignoring half the equation.

Whoa, whoa, back up. That isn't addressing my question (EDIT: and the portion of my post were quoting that you said "Except it is not over 60% and under 100%"). You've gone off track completely here before your post started.

Again, what is the purchasing power of SR4A's Karma relative to SR4's?

To phrase the question another, more mathematical terms, way if you have y Karma in SR4 and x Karma in SR4A such that y creates the same amount of advancement in SR4 that x creates in SR4A, what is the value of x/y?

EDIT: BTW...



... that isn't particularly helpful. Specific sources, please.

I just answered the fucking question. You are ignoring fully half the equation in your supposedly accurate calculations - aka failing to take into account the increased rate of Karma gain. 5 Karma SR4 is equivalent to 9 Karma SR4A. Until you get that, none of your math is even remotely close to accurate.

Well it doesn't look like it. Because the text had you talking about something different and the number you approximated, 65%-70% is in agreement with my statement about being somewhere between 60% and 100%



Ah, no. I explained why it cancels out when you bring it into the calculations. It is on both the numerator and denominator of the SR4A ratio I mentioned earlier. So it gets factored out. Putting it in or leaving it out has no change on the outcome.



LOL, OK see that doesn't come out to 65%-70% at all. Besides being flat out incorrect values to try use to calculate the difference in purchasing power of a point of Karma for advancement.


EDIT: Well it does slightly affect it but that gets into a nuance, and isn't the primary consideration at all. ((EDIT2: Certainly still falling inside the rough range I gave, which really is a range in practice)) I get the feeling that you, given your swearing, you've shut down your reasoning skills so it is pretty much a lose trying to get more detail ... or to even continue talking to you. Thus giving Larme a working demonstration of the Stupid Trait in action.

In the opposite fucking direction, yes.

Except you explained absolutely nothing. And it has a significant change on the outcome.

So you obviously have no fucking idea what the fuck you are talking about.


The value of Karma is determined by both its availability, & the cost of what it can be used to gain. You are ignoring the availability, & thus nothing you have said is correct. Stop trying to fucking bullshit this & go take some economic & math courses.

I am done with your shit.

Um... yeah. You guys should probably drop it.

Wait, before you storm off can I ask your mathematics schooling/training history? I know "real world" problems do present red herrings, and difficulties gathering info, that you don't always see in a classroom question (at least in the same form), and that those skills can fade over the years when they aren't being used. But it'd be really sad if you had basic high school training recently much less post-secondary. :/

Perhaps this will help.

I'm going to create a 'Consumer Product Index' for SR4 and SR4A. Basically, I'm finding out how much you can 'buy' with your karma by find out the average karma cost.

Let's begin with the SR4 costs...
New Specialization: 2 karma
New knowledge/language: 2 karma
New Active skill: 4 karma
New active skill group: 10 karma
(I'm going to say that the skill/attriubute bought is going to go from the range of 2-6 for simplicity, skill groups improve in the 2-4 range.)
Improving a knowlege/language skill by 1: 10.5 karma (Range 3 to 18, averaged to 10.5)
Improving an active skill by 1: 8 karma (range from 4-12, average 8)
Improving an active skill group by 1: 15 karma (range from 10 to 20, average 15)
Improving an attribute by 1: 12 karma (range from 6-18, average 12)
New positive quality: 2 Karma (This is the karma cost of 1 'BP' of the quality)
Remove negative quality: 2 karma (Again, this is the karma cost of 1 'BP' of the quality)
New Spell: 5 Karma
New complex form: 2 karma
Improving a complex form by 1: 4 karma (Assuming range of 2-6, 2-6 karma cost respectfully, average is 4 karma)

The 'Consumer Price Index' for SR4 would be . I got that number by adding together my karma costs that I calculated above, and got the average cost. (2+2+4+10+10.5+8+15+12+2+2+5+2+4=78.5 Which we divide by the number of different 'costs'. 78.5/13=6.04)
Calculating the CPI for SR4A is simple, because most of the numbers won't change. The numbers that will change are the attribute prices.

Improving an attribute by 1: 20 karma (range from 10-30, average 20)

This means that our index will be higher: (2+2+4+10+10.5+8+15+20+2+2+5+2+4=86.5 Which we divide by the number of different 'costs'. 86.5/13=6.65)
So, we have a CPI of 6.04 for SR4, and a CPI of 6.65 for SR4A.

Our SR4 character has 5 karma at the end of the session. That can buy (5/6.04=0.83) 0.83 points worth of 'goods".
Our SR4A character has 9 karma at the end of the session. That can buy (9/6.65=1.35) 1.35 points worth of 'goods'.

What this tells us is that characters in SR4A can buy more skills, attributes, and other miscellaneous karma purchases than a character could in SR4. So, your purchasing power goes up.

So, what is the 'cost' of buying edge from 7-8?

For our SR4 character, 24 karma which buys (24/6.04=3.97) 3.97 points worth of goods.
For our SR4A character, 40 karma which buys (40/6.65=6.02) 6.02 points worth of goods.

The point here isn't that you lose the karma when you buyback edge. The point is that you increased your loss in 'goods' by 150%. Because the true cost of burning edge lies in the value of what you could have bought instead of buying back edge. This is why I say that it is more expensive to burn edge in SR4A.

For those not following along at home, the above is an example of "going a little too far".

Boys, play nice. Lets not insult each other, nor bait each other. Thanks.

Bull

And that is not the point at all.
The reason why you and that halfwit that resorts to call everyone that disagrees with him an idiot are wrong is that there is no average consumer price.
You don't buy averages, you buy a skill level and the point is that this is way more expensive when your target level is 6 then when your target level is 1.
It is exactly this what makes new mr lucky better off then old mr lucky.

(emphasis mine)

I have been skimming this discussion more rapidly as the arguments became more vitriolic, so please forgive me if I am missing something, but are you suggesting that the following is true for non-zero values of Z?

X/Y = (X+Z)/(Y+Z)

XZ/YZ = X/Y

'factor', definition #2.


EDIT: In this case Z, if you apply it in the second ratio, is the ratio of Karma earned in SR4A to Karma earned in SR4. So 9/5 (nominally), or 1.8 if you want to express it as a decimal. Because both characters gain that extra Karma.

But that's not how the two versions of SR4 (and of this argument) go. Each situation has an initial state (X_I and Y_I). To this is added the karma from SR4, which gives X and Y. SR4A adds an extra bit of karma, which is the Z.

I think that a consumer price index is the correct way to look at it. You can't just compare buying back edge to buying back skills. That makes the faulty assumption that these are the only two things worth spending karma on. It ignores the fact that a good character may want to make significant expenditures in other attributes and qualities (especially martial arts).

What we want to know the value of the karma. It's true that there is no absolute way of determining this, but a price index is the closest estimate. But "you don't buy averages" misses the point. The point is, the index of what you can buy estimates the value of your assets. It's not a perfect metric, but it's better than your option, which is apparently nothing. The reason you think that Mr. Lucky is better off when burning edge is because you're relying on what is essentially a skewed consumer price index, one which leaves out any consideration of buying up attributes (as opposed to just replacing burnt edge) and buying qualities.

Now, if it were me, I'd leave out spells and complex forms from the index, because we're talking about Mr. Lucky. In order to afford high Edge and reasonably well rounded skills and attributes, Mr. Lucky is typically mundane. I'm not sure how this would change the average -- it might not, since it applies to both SR4, and SR4A. The point is, karma is more valuable in SR4A, so throwing it down the crapper is a worse idea in SR4A than it was in SR4. You can argue, of course, about having higher karma awards in SR4A. But this will vary from table to table, depending on the length, complexity, and difficulty of the runs undertaken. Karma awards are a variable factor, impossible to pin down with any certainty. Karma awards could create inflation, which would negate the differences in the price index between versions, but it could just as easily create deflation, and make Mr. Lucky even worse off.

PS. Isn't it a little bit astounding that you would call someone halfwit right after an admin told you to cool it? Especially because your beef with this person is that he calls people stupid. Hypocrite, much?

It's math, bitches.
(Mild language warning)

I will attempt to explain this in a simplistic view one final time.

SR4 Karma Gain = 5. This is how much of the resource is available.

SR4A Karma Gain = 9. Again, how much is available.

Thus, SR4 5 Karma, for matters of comparison, is equivalent to SR4A 9 Karma.


SR4, 5 Karma will buy you 1.66 levels of attribute advancement (5/3)

SR4A, 9 Karma will buy you 1.80 levels of attribute advancement (9/5)

SR4A, your attributes advance at a ~8% faster rate than the SR4 equivalent.


SR4, 5 Karma will buy you 2.5 levels of skill advancement (5/2)

SR4A, 9 Karma will buy you 4.5 levels of skill advancement (9/2)

SR4A, your skills advance at a ~80% faster rate than the SR4 equivalent.


Everything else is at the same ratio of skills (80%). Because of the faster rate of advancement in everything, burning Edge in SR4A is less detrimental than burning Edge in SR4.


This is, of course, all calculated at the higher suggested Karma award values. If we use the lower suggested awards ( 4 / 8 ), it comes out even further in favor of SR4A.

False. Karma awards increased 80% therefore Karma is worth about 80% less each. The only cost that went up was Attributes, which went up 60%. Therefore, buying an attribute is about 20% less expensive.

Think of it like this:

You're paid $5 an hour to do some job.
Current Cost of Living is $200 / wk. (note: $5 / hr. * 40 = 200)

Now, the economy rolls along and blam, inflation.
Now you're paid $9 an hour to do the same job. Great!
Unfortunately the Cost of Living went up to $320.

Hmm...9 * 40 = 360. 360 is $40 more than 320.

OMG! EXTRA!

Ok, here's the disconnect. I looked at the SR4A table, and I don't see where it gives you 80% more karma. The one major change I spotted was that you get 1 karma per mission objective. Is there a formula where you figure out the average number of objectives in a mission? Or is there a part I'm missing that suggests how many there should be? As far as I can tell, SR4A gives a table which returns a variable rate of karma based on differing, well, variables. It's not a set amount. There's no guarantee of 9 karma per adventure any more than there was a guarantee of 5 karma per adventure in SR4. Unless I'm missing something, in which case I would really appreciate a page cite.

And whether or not I'm missing anything, I fully acknowledged that the level of karma given per adventure could very well change the calculus. Why are you being so hostile when making a point that I already conceded? Especially when an admin just told you to put a lid on it not one hour ago?

Ah, that's how you do subscript. The BB Code Help page is failing to open for me.


What are you imagining the "initial state" represents? Because the actual value of the karma earned doesn't change what the karma buys, and therefore it doesn't actually value the karma burnt.

Well it sort of influences it but only slightly because the curves that define that relationship are close approximations of a straight line as long as Karma is flowing and you haven't run out of things to spend Karma on. Meaning you are playing the game in a manner that earns some semblance of the rules guidelines and you haven't yet earned whatever 1000's of Karma you need to cap all the Skills and effectively run out of Qualities to spend it on.

But more importantly how are you envisioning constructing that ratio to represent the actual advancement?

Well... shit. That makes sense. Why didn't you say so before?

I agree that it makes sense too, but can anyone explain where it tells me I get 9 karma? I can't find that reference, and that's the problem I'm having.

It doesn't matter whether you go by averages, or you pick a specific point. Let's say we talk about raising a skill to 6. That costs 12 points, right?

By SR4 that's 1/2 of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.
By SR4A that's 3/10th of the karma you spend to buyback your edge to 8.

Using an average is important, because you can *also* use that edge to buy a different attribute at 8.

By SR4 that's 100% of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.
By SR4A that's 100% of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.

By this example, one could make the argument that there is no difference between the cost between SR4 and SR4A. Which, is misleading because we all know that you won't be buying many attributes at level 8, and most people would buy other things (like skills) with their karma.

The idea behind using an average is to incorporate the lack of change in the cost of everything else into the change in the cost of attributes. That creates a more correct interpretation of how things changed than just taking one single factor.



Actually, I believe he's suggesting that:

X/Y = (X * Z)/(Y * Z)

Oh wait, I'm sorry. In what you are proposing X_I = Y_I, because both the characters using the same rules are starting from the same initial point, right? So

(X_I + Z)/(Y_I +Z) = (Y_I + Z)/(Y_I +Z) = 1

Again, all gone. "It's math, bitches" indeed.

This makes me laugh. Synner (or maybe Adam) said 8-9 Karma average in SR4A. When it was brought to his attention that this was not implemented in SR4A, he said it was accidentally left out, & they changed the Karma Awards chart to reflect this change in the updated PDF.

I now go to look at it, & the Karma Awards does noticeably increase the Karma Awards, but the description accompanying it is still identical to SR4 (aka 1 Karma for completing 2/3 of objectives, not 1 per objective - suggested award 4-5, not 8-9).

That's just fucking hilarious. They fix the table, while ignoring the accompanying text.

That's exactly where the misunderstanding is.
Mr Lucky buys 1, The reference dude of the team 4,5,6.
Mr Lucky adds 8 dice to vital roles so he doesn't need high skills.
The other characters can't constantly roll edge so they require higher skills.
That's why Mr Lucky is well and good if he can afford to raise a skill to a low level whereas the random team member chosen for reference needs high levels.
You don't pick one specific point, you pick two.

Unfortunately that analogy entirely fails to translate for a comparison of burning Edge. Because:
1) you haven't built it in
2) if you did try to you'd have to rework it somehow so that SR "cost of living" would actually be $0 for Mr. Lucky and $240 and $400 for Mr. Stupid in SR4 an SR4A respectively, and Karma expenditures were all disposable income

Then things get really confused (for you) because for the disposable income you have to bring in the purchasing power factor I mentioned earlier, which is NOT actually influenced by the Karma available because for at least several hundred Karma you are in you have an extremely elastic supply of Skills to purchase up ... in truth it doesn't even follow free market pricing, it is an artificially set price.

An artificially set price set in the rules that sets in stone the value of Karma to purchase advancement in SR4A at something with a lower boundary of 60% (prior Stat cost 3 Karma/point, new cost 5 Karma/point) and an upper boundary of 100% (prior Skill cost 2 Karma/Skill point and 5 Karma/Group point, same as the new cost) of the Karma in SR4.

And yet again, you go wrong in your assumption that we care about "to Burn or not to Burn". We don't give a damn - it is fucking obvious that it is far more cost effective not to burn.

What we care about is, under the assumption that you do burn, is it better or worse under the new rules?

Then why are you in this thread, again? To swear at me?



For Edge 8 ... unless the outcome is a HUGE payoff (like the character not dying). But with lower Edge values it becomes more cost effective with lower payoff for a burned point. This exercise also helps get a better handle on whether that Edge value that it switches over [for a given payoff] is at a higher or lower value now. It actually is switching over at a lower value (as follows from it being more costly in SR4A to burn Edge 8 ... any Edge really).

See it actually does matter, whether you give a damn or not.



Oh, yeah that. See that IS what I'm measuring. It is worse because you fall behind the other characters much faster than before. True you don't go backwards quite as fast (EDIT: well maybe you do, depends on just how much of that extra Karma really comes through in play) because the overall advancement rate is upped some, but you do fall behind faster.

That's why what you profess to not give a damn about matters [to you]. Because it answers the question you care about.

Check SR4's Karma awards. Make out a list of "awarded for an average run." You'll get about 3 to 6 depending. Average, say 5.

Follow the same rules for SR4A, that number comes out to 7 to 10. Average, say, 9.

9 / 5 = 1.80

Voila. 80% increase.



Actually I did. It was the "cost of living."



All of that is irrelevant. The whole point is I already burned the fucking edge. Once I buy it up again (under SR4 vs. SR4A) where do I come out "ahead"?

Oh, that was confusing because it's the wrong ratio in the cost of living values. So yeah, you just really screwed up implementing the analogy. All that analogy as you've laid it out is saying "look, I can spend faster on hookers (AKA burning Edge) because I've got more cash(AKA Karma) and I can buy more hookers because the absolute value increase the hookers are charging didn't entirely eat up my wage increases". ((EDIT2: Which of course isn't even something firm to hang your hat on because the Karma earning ratio is variable to the point that inside what appear to be reasonable ranges of variance it can actually flip that. ))

It doesn't say anything about just how crappy the SR4A burn is compared to SR4 burn.



Only you don't come out "ahead", it's actually a matter of the degree to which you are behind. In both cases you come out behind by burning Edge (before accounting for the payoff of whatever the Edge was spent to gain, which we can assume is the same in both SR4A and SR4, right?). That's just what burning Edge does. Only in SR4A you come out further behind.

EDIT2: As an added bonus, besides actually being something fairly useful to base gaming decisions on, this analysis is applicable and valid for Karma earning above or below the 9:5 ratio (as long as there is some Karma coming in and it isn't thousands of Karma)

Your analysis is pretty crappy because you continue to ignore that there's no linear correlation between karma and dicepool.

The Karma to die pool correlation doesn't need to be entirely linear. It just needs to be direct and significant, of which it is both.

The correlation is actually fairly close to linear when you are making the choices because of the breadth of Skills. For the non-linear effects to start having meaningful impact the gap in power between a choices much be huge (hundreds of Karma, where upon the characters are just in completely different classes) or you have to be at that part of the curve where things elbow up very steeply (after the characters have way higher than 1000 Karma in advancement under their belt ... I'm not sure where that range is these days but obviously it's higher than it was under SR4).

EDIT: Though for really low values of Edge the discrete step of a single choice does start getting affected sooner, the difference is a little more abstract, and somewhat diminished sooner. But then the price paid is lower and much more likely to be the better payoff anyway.

Hence the god damned quote marks you hair spitting "the argument is wrong because he misspelled something" neat-freak.

What??? Misspelled what? Where?

Your measurement is nigh meaningless and just I assumed it was because you didn't understand that you were expending an asset? This is about the asset expended (burning Edge). You don't even need to the exact track the timing of getting the Karma back to valuate how much you've loss, that is actually effectively irrelevant to valuation of that asset expended. As is this bit of Karma overtop when you arbitrarily set at 5 session the time at which you total up +/- Karma spent/expended at.

You referring to it as coming out ahead seemed to go to the root of that misconception.

You can't get ahead. But if the edge is already burned where would you like to be? SR4, or SR4A?

SR4A.

Q

E

D

(Note: My point about being "ahead" was the SR4 burner compared to the SR4A burner: one of them is ahead of the other; no other build needed for the comparison)

That's crazy talk.

Because the hole you find yourself in is notably deeper than it is in SR4. It's the same answer because it's the same question dressed up differently. That burn cost(s) more in SR4A, whether you did it 5 minutes ago or whether your might choose to do it 5 minutes from now.

I give up. I've proven empirically that SR4A is better. You keep seeing two holes, one deeper than the other and fail to take into the account the size of the wheelbarrows dumping dirt into the holes.

LOL. You are blind to the same wheelbarrows dumping the same heaps of dirt for the other PCs. So at the end of those few sessions you are still looking up.

I showed how the cost was higher when you were considering spending in the future, right? So how did the cost change between the 5 minutes before and the 5 minutes after the Edge was burnt? The answer is that it changed in your own subjective judgement, and only there.

I highly suggest you stay away from casinos and such. That's how casinos make their money, off people that can't keep the various veils of illusion from obscuring the objective, logical facts. At least at the RPG gaming table the stakes are pretty much inconsequential, you aren't going to lose your rent money or anything.

Guys, can we avoid running discussions into the ground, and then stomping on them until they stop twitching?

I guess we could, but seriously, would this be dumpshock anymore then? ^^
But i guess being a little more friendly could not hurt in these cases <.<

Twitching? It was coming right at me!

The other PCs do not matter to the original question.








Would be nice.

See! It keeps coming right at me!



Sure they do. Their level of abilities influences the difficulties of the environment the character ends up in. If the other character's abilities go up more the difficulty of the environment increases, either because the GM is purposely upping the heat or the other players are pushing further.


Again, what you profess to not care about matters for answering the question.

You are making the very mistake you talk about with raising wages. The absolute amount of advancement in SR4A for the edge Burn character is marginally higher with the SR4A after 5 sessions (assuming Karma is earned at least 67% faster) than SR4 but the other characters have increased their advancement faster, too. So the SR4A falls behind more.

The whole of the character's situation, therefore the whole of the influence of the rules changes (and thus other characters), must be considered to understand the difference.

... but you just can't stop? Even after giving up?

Don't worry, I love you too and I won't give up on you. I've got a soft spot for trying to eliminate ignorance and misconceptions. EDIT: I have faith in you, that you'll come through in the end!

They do, because a Mr. Lucky build isn't going to be burning Edge in the first place. The question is the low-Edge chars, who can afford to burn with impunity. We should be examining Edge 1-2 characters, not Mr. Lucky.

Not total impunity but they can afford to burn much, much more readily. SR4A at least boosts their cost the same approximately 20%, even if +20% to not much is still damn small, and puts some meaningful pressure on the mid-range too Edge, too.

The main thing keeping the Mr. Burn build with Edge 1 in check, besides player self restraint from min-maxing, is the danger inherent in only having 1 point of Edge for cushion. ((There isn't anything prohibiting burning down to Edge 0, is there?))

But this burn and then repurchasing of Edge becomes worse depending on how Edge refresh is handled. If the refresh rate is longer than just the end-of-session and Edge that is bought [at the end of the session] is considered to come already refreshed (I'm not sure the rules are explicit on this?) that's a further loophole that Edge 1 or Edge 2 can exploit through min-maxing.


EDIT: One potential mechanical change that would have made a much more serious impression would have been to add/change two rules:
- burn Edge is a permanent penalty to your Edge Attribute, meaning lower effective maximum and also higher cost (because with a -1D penalty you still pay for Edge three even when you are only getting the Edge 2 effect).
- an alternate to burning Edge is spending Edge * 5 Karma, minimum 20 Karma, that you have banked

That gets a little more complicated but it addresses Mr. Burn.

Seems par for the course from what I've seen so far with SR4A.

Thanks for checking and posting that, answers a question I asked somewhere else.

New rule:

Spend 5 karma to not die.

How much does that gimp a character in relation to his pals?

Not much, I'm betting.

(5 karma: the cost to raise your Edge to 1 and burn it.)

Not only can he do this every run, but gains 4 karma on top to boot. Compare to the cost in SR4:

3 karma to raise Edge to 1, 5 karma gained per run.

2 karma or 4 on skills? 2 karma or 4?

I think I'll take the 4.

Q.

F.

E.

D.