I cannot for the life of me find the reference in the core book. Is this true?

pg70, SR4A: "Bioware also has an Essence Cost, just like cyberware."

No it isn't.
Bioware lowers essence just as cyberware does and thus lowers magic.
It's mage friendlier only because it generally costs way less essence then equivalent cyberware but that's about it.

originally when bioware came out it did not detract from magic use but the designers realized this could cause problems so by 3rd ed it did not cost essence but 'blocked' magic flow too,

But with 3rd Ed Geasa, that was not such a big Problem.
It's only fluff-wise, that bio does not hurt mages, as they don't have POINTS in the Fluff.
They only lose a bit of magic, not one sixth or whatever.

Magic is always diminished every time you put cyberware and bioware into your character period. In 3rd Bioware blocked your magic ability equal to your Bio Index, in 4th it drops your Magic attribute and Essence equal to the essence loss. In 4th you track cyberware and bioware essence loss separately and you only loss half of the lesser about from your cyber and bio (example if you have -3 essence from cyberware and -2 essence from bioware you only lose -4 (-3 + (-2/2)) essence).

I thought in 2e at least that bioware cost only was essence free as long as its essence cost was less than the cyberware you used. So for mage types with possibly no cyber it cost essence, but if you blew an essence on eyes and a smartgun link you could get the trauma dampener for "free". Its been a long time, so I may be remembering a house rule or something.

They had a bio index in second edition and like in third it didn't take away from your essence but it did take away from your Magic.

1 point of essence = synaptic boosters 2. The penalties incurred for sustaining spell for those two extra initiative passes make this a pretty good deal, especially considering that alphaware boosters will leave you 0.2 essence for other toys. It's not perfect, but it beats cyberware.

If you feel especially munch-y, you can take the Type O System quality and have Synaptic Boosters at rating 3 for 0.75 essence. Four initiative passes that can only be removed by surgery is serious business, and you can still load up on 0.5 essence points of bioware - if I'm not mistaken, enough for a supathyroid gland and a single-skill reflex recorder.

Type O system doesn't work with cultured bioware.

Ye gods, please no.
Not that "discussion" again . .

I think that originally bio worked by you could have a bioware index, that you could have bioware equal to your essence+ 3. which meant mages could have like 9 points of bioware but a street sam, loaded with cyber could have far less.

Geez this brings back memories of reading through that first bioware book in a NY mcDonalds and realizing how potent it was.

double post

Actually in the old old days of Shadowtech you could have up to your body in body index irrespectively of your essence. The essence/body index correlation didn't come until much later. I want to say man and machine, but I'm not sure...

Peter

Nope, in SR3 Base Book, there was the BioIndex of Essence+3.
Only later in an Errata to Man and Machine came the part where you could take a Geas on Magic lost by Bioware.
Formerly only Cyber-Ware could be geased.
But of course, if you're allready implanting some Bio, then just get something cute like a Datajack and Geas the lost Point again . .
and i STILL say that this System was WAY better than the one in SR4 with the lower ammount being halved <.< . .

Do I hear SR3? Time to leap in!

SR3 doesn't have any bioware, so it also doesn't have bio index.

Man and Machine brought bioware to SR3, and the rule is Essence Index = Essence + 3. The hard cap is 9 points of bio index. The soft cap is Essence Index: a cyber-free character can have 9 bio index points of bioware without added penalties, a maxed-out sammy with 0.1 essence can have 3.1 points. In addition to more difficulty healing with any bioware, going over the soft cap increases healing times (more), increases risks of death, and makes all your bioware work a little bit worse.

Mages in 3rd could take geasa to regain magic lost to cyberware. Bio index also reduces effective magic rating, but it doesn't actually lower the ability. That means no geasa to offset the penalty but also no burning out from bioware. This was apparently fixed in errata, as Stahlseele says. Good to know!

So in sum, bioware is slightly more limited for heavy cyber characters in SR4, but for mages it's certainly no worse.

AFAIR somewhere along the way the magic reduction by bioware was halfed. But I might be wrong. It's been a long time ago.

Either allways been that way in SR3, or in an Errata.
You only lost Magic equal to half the points of Bioware you had implanted.
2 Points Bio, 1 Point Magic loss.
The real twinking came with Cyber and Bio in the same Body.
A little bit of Cyber, not a whole point, let's say 0,8Essence worth.
then Add in 0,4 Points of Bioware.
These 0,4 get halved to 0,2.
0,2+0,8=1 Point of Magic lost.

Uh, not quite. Man and Machine: Cyberware, publication 7126.page 59-80 is bio-technology with sub headings, bioware defined, bioware drawbacks, bioware and bioware rules. So 3rd Ed. does have bioware.

As for the rest I think we've answred the original question about hard rules. Now we're just beating each other with rule books and old memories.

So?
Beatings will continue untill Morale improves!
And what would a relationship be without a certain ammount of sadomasochism? ^^

Boring unless you turn up the taylored pheromones and had something interesting in the scnet glands.

Did you read the rest of his post at all. He said Man and Machine brought bioware into 3rd edition, he meant that th 3rd edition corebook doesn't have bioware in it.

Cripes. Can't believe I missed that.

It would have been nice if they'd said it in plain english, though.

As far as i know, that issue has never been officially resolved.

Think about it, if your Type O then common bioware is technically cultured bioware to you. Read the fluff around Type O and it makes it all clear. Basically common bioware is Type O as it has the least chance of being rejected by the host body (kinda like how O- blood can be accepted by anyone (Yeah universal doner!). This is also another reason not to brag that your Type O (Mmm universal doner... ).

The best explanation I can think of is that cultured bioware is produced by taking a Type Owen cell culture for the bio-implant and modifying it, likely with some sort of gene-spliced virus. It's a lot closer to your own genome than the original Type O, but there's still a huge difference. Better bioware will get you more precise modifications and an improved starting cell culture.

It's sort of like being 5'11" tall, weighing 180 pounds, an average build, and size-9 feet - while this has an obvious advantage if you're buying off the rack, even bespoke clothing will fit you a lot better. Of course, people who aren't dead average always have the option to stop buying at macy's and go to a really good tailor, similar to how Jeremy the Generic Street-Samurai can use generic bioware or spend ten times as much for a perfect genetic fit.

Actually you have it backward. General bioware is created using Type Owen cells that are mutated using various methods (including tailored viruses), while cultured bioware is produced using your own cells (whatever Type cells you have in your body). If you have a Type O system then the bioware is already produced with cells that match your body type and thus creating cultured bioware would be redundent (general bioware is technically already "cultured" to your system).

Um originally bioware index was equal to character Body attribute. A Troll could pack a lot more bio then an elf (and generally did). If I'm remembering correctly bioware index did take away from essence if you where a mage but not if you where any other character type.

In Shadowtech (SR2), the Bio Index was a measure of how much Bioware you could have implanted.

Bioware did NOT cost Essence. For the magically active, it basically acted as a virtual loss of power. Say you had two points of Bioware, for magical purposes your Magic rating was 2 points lower. But your Magic Attribute was NOT decreased. Bioware merely interfered with the channeling of Mana. It did NOT permanently remove ability like Cyberware does.

I'm going to guess, though, that the genetic modifications made are taken from lab cultures using Type Owen cells (just in case.) Building a genetic code from scratch is nearly impossible - it's much easier to take a huge lump out of one genetic code and splice it into place. There are side benefits, too - all genetic engineers know the Type O genome like the back of their hand.

There is, of course, the fact that this is of course just a game predicting genetic engineering sixty years in the future - it's really just a case of "Is type O a pointless quality or a broken one?"

Actually creating a purely synthetic genome is possible now. 60 years from now it will be a project in a 200 level biology class.

The main reason that Cultured bioware takes so much time to create and is as perfect for you as scientifically possible is because they take the time to get the required genetic material from you and they take the time to create the bioware implant NOT using Type O cells. You would also need scientists with better skills in biology and background knowledge of bioware (hence the cost increase).

Most biologists will know Type O like the back of their hand but that doesn't mean they can't take their knowledge about Type O cells and modify it for some other cel type for cultured bioware. I just wouldn't want to trust some street doc to be creating cultured bioware for me.

Wrong thread to talk about Type O system in. And until the devs make a ruling, you are not going to convence anyone to change sides. Back on topic.