Full Version: NEXT PRODUCT RELEASE AND DATE
| QUOTE (Domino) |
| SR has classes you narrow minded weenies. Mage, Adept, Shaman, Rigger, Sammie. They are only as unique as you make them. |
SR only has classes if you're a narrow minded weenie! At least you have the POSSIBILITY to make a class mix. How often have I created a combat-decker-rigger mix? Or a fighter-mage? Or a decker-face? Or something completely out of bounds like a mad scientist or demolitions expert?
Of course if you only do the decker/rigger/sam/mage/face routine, you might as well play D20. However, I love SR for it's lack of character classes.
I could imagine that in D20 all deckers are nerds and whimps, going down with one hit and so socially inept they would have a problem ordering a drink at a bar.
And mages would all be seriously technologically impaired.
And fighters couldn't use magic no matter what.
Of course you are still able to do double classes (at least you where in old AD&D) but that system was bad, especially when it came to gaining levels.
I love Shadowrun for it's many shades of grey, for lack of a clear distinction between good and evil and stuff like that.
As for the experience system, I'm sure one could bend the D20 system to allow for similar strategies like the SR system. Just stop giving XP per encounter but rather per run.
But what I always hated was the leveling system. What the hell? You killed X monsters and all of a sudden you get tougher and stronger. But then again, you can not deliberately change your attributes or skills. What good is that?
Also, I don't want to by all those stupid new dice. Every household has at least one D6 lying around somewhere.
Argh, I'm in ranting/bitching-mode today. Sorry.
Same as you kill x number of corp goons and suddenly get higher Strength when you spend your karma.... Same as you make x runs and suddenly become a better spell slinger after you initiate...
have you even looked at the 3e/3.5e books? i mean, i'm not sure where to begin disputing your post--the entire thing is wrong.
in d20, you can gain one level in as many classes as you want. you can even do it without taking xp penalties; those only apply to base classes, not PrCs. so much for being straightjacketed by class--i can be a fighter/wizard/rogue/shadowdancer/monk/bard/sorcerer/paladin/master samurai/and so on.
the 'shades of grey' argument is bogus as well; the fact that you can define whether your character is good or bad doesn't remove moral ambiguity from the mix--the question becomes, 'what is the right thing to do'.
why does it matter whether you give xp by encounter or by run/adventure? how does that prevent or encourage hack-and-slash play?
what the hell? you spend x amount of karma, and all of the sudden you get better at shooting your SMG!
in D&D, you can improve your attributes once every 4 levels. you can also get items which improve your attributes.
and "all those stupid new dice" have been around for the past quarter-century, and are available pretty much anywhere you can buy SR books.
in d20, you can gain one level in as many classes as you want. you can even do it without taking xp penalties; those only apply to base classes, not PrCs. so much for being straightjacketed by class--i can be a fighter/wizard/rogue/shadowdancer/monk/bard/sorcerer/paladin/master samurai/and so on.
the 'shades of grey' argument is bogus as well; the fact that you can define whether your character is good or bad doesn't remove moral ambiguity from the mix--the question becomes, 'what is the right thing to do'.
why does it matter whether you give xp by encounter or by run/adventure? how does that prevent or encourage hack-and-slash play?
what the hell? you spend x amount of karma, and all of the sudden you get better at shooting your SMG!
in D&D, you can improve your attributes once every 4 levels. you can also get items which improve your attributes.
and "all those stupid new dice" have been around for the past quarter-century, and are available pretty much anywhere you can buy SR books.
The d20 apologists will obviously not be swayed by those who dislike the system, and vice versa. neither side really wants to listen to the other, so why bother continue to talk about it?
This argument is stupid, often inflammatory, and, most importantly, completely off topic both for this thread and for this forum. could someone please shut it down now?
This argument is stupid, often inflammatory, and, most importantly, completely off topic both for this thread and for this forum. could someone please shut it down now?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
have you even looked at the 3e/3.5e books? i mean, i'm not sure where to begin disputing your post--the entire thing is wrong. |
I indeed have played 3e D&D but it's a while ago, so I don't remember the details. Most of what I wrote is based on second edition AD&D, of which I own all the important sets and which I enjoy playing for a fantasy game. I found those two to be pretty similar by skimming the books.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
in d20, you can gain one level in as many classes as you want. you can even do it without taking xp penalties; those only apply to base classes, not PrCs. so much for being straightjacketed by class--i can be a fighter/wizard/rogue/shadowdancer/monk/bard/sorcerer/paladin/master samurai/and so on. |
Still I can't believe it's the same. It just doesn't give you as much control over the whole. Of course, I'm kinda fishing in the sky here since I have no intimate knowledge of the new system. I just know that in the old system it wasn't really worthwhile to have double-classes because you advanced more slowly than other classes (have to split EXP between the classes) so you'd always lag behind the group.
Do they still have this silly thing like "a fighter-mage can't cast spells while wearing armour"?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
the 'shades of grey' argument is bogus as well; the fact that you can define whether your character is good or bad doesn't remove moral ambiguity from the mix--the question becomes, 'what is the right thing to do'. |
True... Don't know what I thought by writing that in there... I wasn't even refering to the morality rules (which I dislike but you don't have to use them after all). That was complete Humphrey Bogus by me. Sorry.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
why does it matter whether you give xp by encounter or by run/adventure? how does that prevent or encourage hack-and-slash play? |
It depends on how you handle it. In game the players notice that each time they chop off a head they get experience. If you do it after each run you can say "for accomplishing this goal you gain 2000 EXP" or whatever. As long as you give them calculations for how much as experience the get or killing the monsters, of course it's the same thing.
But this is no drawback of D20. It's just a matter of how you handle it.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
what the hell? you spend x amount of karma, and all of the sudden you get better at shooting your SMG! |
Yes, but you have more control. Also, there are the teaching rules in the Shadowrun Core Rules and the Companion. If you need more realism, use them. Or just apply common sense and use your Karma for the SMG if you use the SMG a lot.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
in D&D, you can improve your attributes once every 4 levels. you can also get items which improve your attributes. |
So they changed that. In AD&D they had tables how the attributes changed foro every class at certain levels. So if I was a warrior trying to raise my charisma I would have to rely on magical items (which may not even exist for SR D20) for that since charisma isn't raised for warriors.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
and "all those stupid new dice" have been around for the past quarter-century, and are available pretty much anywhere you can buy SR books. |
Which still doesn't solve the problem that I have to buy them (spend money on them) and that I'm out of luck if I ever forget them. It's hard to find a household without a D6. Just a matter of preference.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| The d20 apologists will obviously not be swayed by those who dislike the system, and vice versa. neither side really wants to listen to the other, so why bother continue to talk about it? This argument is stupid, often inflammatory, and, most importantly, completely off topic both for this thread and for this forum. could someone please shut it down now? |
Bleh... you're right.
Ok, I apologize. Let's stop this now.
if someone dislikes the system, cool. what's not cool is when they have objections to it that don't actually exist!
Hey I just like saying weenie.
Oh... as an unimportant side note, polyhedral dice have been around since the days of the Roman empire (not the Holy Roman Empire, ie Germany, but the one based in, well, Rome). There was an approximately 1800 year old glass d20 being auctioned a bit ago at Christies, but apparently it has already been purchased. I found a partial copy of the bid form, with the picture and description, here.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander @ Jan 16 2004, 03:23 AM) |
| The d20 apologists will obviously not be swayed by those who dislike the system, and vice versa. neither side really wants to listen to the other, so why bother continue to talk about it? This argument is stupid, often inflammatory, and, most importantly, completely off topic both for this thread and for this forum. could someone please shut it down now? |
I don't believe Shadowrun d20 is off-topic at all; it would be nice, however, if those not interested in it would not feel the need to say the same old [often wrong] things over and over.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| if someone dislikes the system, cool. what's not cool is when they have objections to it that don't actually exist! |
Now saying my objections don't exist is just a lie. Ok, some where wrong. granted. But some are just me saying "I don't like this". If you don't have a problem with that, great for you. But don't keep on telling me how wrong I am just because I say "I think this is a bunch of crap".
I don't like the way D20 handles certain things. I just don't like classes for several reasons. I think the character advancement mechanisms are too rigid. And if they kept the character creation system where you roll dice to create a character, then I don't like that either.
All I'm saying is: I like Shadowrun a whole lot better for said reasons.
Now I don't want to start this whole discussion again because I think we'll talk ourselves into a dead end but it just pisses me off when someone is telling me that what I say is crap without paying enough attention to what I said. Please look at my next-to-last post for what my exact arguments are.
If I said something wrong, fine. I'm not perfect and I can admit my mistakes. If I made a mistake you can point that out. I have no problem with that. I like to learn new things every day and I D20 is not as bad as I think is, that's even better! What I don't like is someone telling me "My god, you are so stupid! Everything you said is wrong!"
But I have to apologize as well.
I was being a bit too agressive and... well... agressive (can't think of a better word) for the fact that most of what I was saying was based on vague memories and 2nd Edition AD&D. I'm sorry. Had a bad day. Still having it, actually...But while we're at it: I'm interested now. It seems like D20 is a good deal different than what I thought. Can anybody give me some more info on my wrong misconceptions or would that be too off-topic? I mean, if Shadowrun could be turned D20 (which, for compatability reasons, wouldn't be too bad) it would be nice to know what's coming. Also, if D20 is actually a good system I might go and play D&D again. Finaly a decent fantasy game.
So, anybody willing to enlighten me?
Hoping not to have talked myself into even more trouble,
yours sincerely
I, for one, would welcome (read: "buy and use") a d20 conversion of SR.
Heretic! *BURN*
Any particular reason? PM me if you'd prefer not to bring the thread even further off-topic; I'm interested in knowing why you'd want this.
~J
Any particular reason? PM me if you'd prefer not to bring the thread even further off-topic; I'm interested in knowing why you'd want this.
~J
| QUOTE (Adam) |
| I don't believe Shadowrun d20 is off-topic at all; it would be nice, however, if those not interested in it would not feel the need to say the same old [often wrong] things over and over. |
so what, exactly, about this discussion of the good and bad aspects of the d20 system has anything to do with when the next SR product is going to be released?
Requests for the thread to be closed are DEFINITELY off-topic 
Seriously. If you don't want to read it, don't. If you really think it needs to be closed, PM an admin.
~J
Seriously. If you don't want to read it, don't. If you really think it needs to be closed, PM an admin.
~J
Oh, nothing, but this thread hasn't been on-topic since a few people decided to drag it off topic with nonsensical and factless posts less than ten posts into the thread.
However, none of the administration wants to make a policy of running around closing threads due to topic drift, unless it's being done maliciously.
However, none of the administration wants to make a policy of running around closing threads due to topic drift, unless it's being done maliciously.
In that case...
ALL OF YOU d20 APOLOGISTS WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER!!!
No, I'm just kidding.
Anyways, there wasn't much more to say on topic after the first ten or so...
ALL OF YOU d20 APOLOGISTS WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER!!!
No, I'm just kidding.
Anyways, there wasn't much more to say on topic after the first ten or so...
COnsidering the relative differences between the two systems, any d6/d20 conversion would be difficult. It would be much easier to do an Earthdawn/d20 conversion than an SR/d20 conversion. Which, in hindsight, is the same way of explaining why doign an ED/SR conversion is rather difficult at times.
d20/SR conversions aren't impossible, but it's not easy either.
I think the d20 modern system has pre-made rules for cyberware, magic already exists and the DM would have to tweak a few points to reflect certain aspects.
To be fair, I intensely dislike d20 on general principles but some people find the speed of snail snot down a rope to be comforting.
-Siege
I think the d20 modern system has pre-made rules for cyberware, magic already exists and the DM would have to tweak a few points to reflect certain aspects.
To be fair, I intensely dislike d20 on general principles but some people find the speed of snail snot down a rope to be comforting.
-Siege
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