AllTheNothing
Apr 23 2009, 12:04 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 23 2009, 01:42 PM)

Wards never hurt. Any expensive vehicle like a tank will also have rigger pilots, and not conventional crews, so they'll be less vulnerable to manifesting spirits for lack of free space inside as well.
As far as magic support goes - combined arms have been proven to be superiour to other approaches.
I agreed that magical support never hurts but the free space part doesn't ring true to my ears, there's nothing that set the rules of the size of a materialized spirit, it could be antsized and still pack a nasty elettrical elemental strike against the elettronics or the ammunitions (or it could materialize within the rigger's breathing apparatus

).
toturi
Apr 23 2009, 12:48 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 23 2009, 07:42 PM)

Wards never hurt. Any expensive vehicle like a tank will also have rigger pilots, and not conventional crews, so they'll be less vulnerable to manifesting spirits for lack of free space inside as well.
As far as magic support goes - combined arms have been proven to be superiour to other approaches.
I am sure that combined arms has produced results superior other approaches in the short term. But add magic in the mix? Any conflict worth using tanks on is going to produce a lot of Background Count. Should that Background Count last for any significant period of time and given the violence that produces such BC, you are looking at a potential toxic domain. A Domain that enhances the abilities of the threats that it spawns, that degrades your ability to defend against it, with highly valuable but vulnerable assets in theatre.
AllTheNothing
Apr 23 2009, 01:10 PM
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 23 2009, 02:48 PM)

I am sure that combined arms has produced results superior other approaches in the short term. But add magic in the mix? Any conflict worth using tanks on is going to produce a lot of Background Count. Should that Background Count last for any significant period of time and given the violence that produces such BC, you are looking at a potential toxic domain. A Domain that enhances the abilities of the threats that it spawns, that degrades your ability to defend against it, with highly valuable but vulnerable assets in theatre.
Background count is going to go up in the area in which fighting takes place, which probably won't be the same over and over, the background count is going to be annoying but it would take some VERY serious dreck to make things go toxic (nuclear weapons or scrotched earth tactics like the one Azzies used in the Yukatan).
Fuchs
Apr 23 2009, 01:21 PM
And not to put too fine a point on it - unless you're of the opinion that spirits somehow can shrink to any size they want (which has ramifications that would change far more than tank tactics) then the tanks have a very good shot at killing spirits. Not much can stand up to a tanks main gun, and not much more can withstand the secondary armament.
Kovu Muphasa
Apr 23 2009, 02:26 PM
This is what we came up for a Moder Game I am running using the SR4 Rules
Name: M1A2 Abrams
Type: MBT
Crew: 4
Handling: -2
Acceleration: 10/20
Speed: 60
Sensor: 3
Body: 35
Armor: 20 [30]
Weapons:
120mm Main Gun [Heavy Manual Flexible Turret] {GM Heavy Cannon}
HMG [Commanders, Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax HMG-2}
GPMG [Coaxial] {Ultimax MMG}
GPMG [Loaders Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax MMG}
Upgrades: ECM [Rating-2], Level-1 Life Support, Passenger Protection, Satellite Communications, Searchlight, Smart Armor [Rating-10], Smoke Projector, ,Special Armor Protection: Chemical, Radiation [Rating-6], Tracked Vehicle
As far a Spirits, I thought they could not enter a "Sealed Enviroment"?
Apathy
Apr 23 2009, 02:34 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 23 2009, 09:21 AM)

And not to put too fine a point on it - unless you're of the opinion that spirits somehow can shrink to any size they want (which has ramifications that would change far more than tank tactics) then the tanks have a very good shot at killing spirits. Not much can stand up to a tanks main gun, and not much more can withstand the secondary armament.
While manifesting spirits might need space, possessing spirits would not need any space whatsoever. As I understand it, the possessing spirit would be able to control the physical actions of the crew member, they wouldn't be able to send any instructions over DNI, so they couldn't take over the tank. Would the possessed rigger still be able to rig (as long as he was plugged in) even while his physical body was taken over? As a related question, what happens when a spirit possessed a CCU brain?
AllTheNothing
Apr 23 2009, 04:11 PM
QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Apr 23 2009, 04:26 PM)

This is what we came up for a Moder Game I am running using the SR4 Rules
Name: M1A2 Abrams
Type: MBT
Crew: 4
Handling: -2
Acceleration: 10/20
Speed: 60
Sensor: 3
Body: 35
Armor: 20 [30]
Weapons:
120mm Main Gun [Heavy Manual Flexible Turret] {GM Heavy Cannon}
HMG [Commanders, Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax HMG-2}
GPMG [Coaxial] {Ultimax MMG}
GPMG [Loaders Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax MMG}
Upgrades: ECM [Rating-2], Level-1 Life Support, Passenger Protection, Satellite Communications, Searchlight, Smart Armor [Rating-10], Smoke Projector, ,Special Armor Protection: Chemical, Radiation [Rating-6], Tracked Vehicle
As far a Spirits, I thought they could not enter a "Sealed Enviroment"?
The main cannon manualy operated?
hobgoblin
Apr 23 2009, 04:19 PM
i guess he chose manual as it represents a person in the turret, not that it needs to be hand cranked into posision (altho i guess thats a valid way to read the manual designation, as its never really been specified).
Kovu Muphasa
Apr 23 2009, 04:37 PM
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Apr 23 2009, 11:11 AM)

The main cannon manualy operated?
In a Standard M1A2 the Main Gun is amied by the Gunner or the Commander, so I guess the Main Gun and the Coax could be considered Remote?
This is our LATP version
Name: M1A5LATP Abrams
Type: MBT
Crew: 4 [Commander {Mage?}, Gunner {Decker}, Loader {Spirit?}, Driver {Rigger}
Handling: -2
Acceleration: 10/20
Speed: 60
Pilot: 4
Sensor: 4
Body: 35
Armor: 20 [30]
Weapons:
120mm Main Gun [Heavy Manual Flexible Remote Turret] {GM Heavy Cannon}
HMG [Commanders, Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax HMG-2}
GPMG [Coaxial Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax MMG}
GPMG [Loaders Remote Flexible Turret] {Ultimax MMG}
Upgrades: ECM [Rating-6], Electromagnetic Shielding, Enhanced Image Screens, Fuzzy Logic, Large Landing Drone Rack, Level-1 Life Support, Manual Control Override, Missile Defense System, Multifuel Engine, Nanomaintenance System, Passenger Protection [Rating-6], Rigger Adaptation, Satellite Communications, Searchlight, Signature Masking [Rating-6], Smart Armor [Rating-10], Smoke Projector, Special Armor Protection: Chemical, Radiation [Rating-6], Tracked Vehicle
GreyBrother
Apr 23 2009, 04:46 PM
Abrams are bigger than Patrol Subs? Who knew

Seriously: Did i miss an errata or something on Body and Size of Vehicles?
Apathy
Apr 23 2009, 04:46 PM
The M1A2's cannon is loaded manually, as opposed to the T80 which has an autoloader. This is generally faster and more reliable, but requires an additional crew member.
Warlordtheft
Apr 23 2009, 04:51 PM
You could also line the crew comparment with panels of micro organisms (I forget what they are called), that way a spirit can't enter the vehicle. A mage as a vehicle commander??? Not as SOP. But in a Merc or special case yeah, that would be the best spot for him. He should go dual to watch for spirits too. He can also sling spells should he need to.
AllTheNothing
Apr 23 2009, 05:06 PM
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Apr 23 2009, 06:51 PM)

You could also line the crew comparment with panels of micro organisms (I forget what they are called), that way a spirit can't enter the vehicle. A mage as a vehicle commander??? Not as SOP. But in a Merc or special case yeah, that would be the best spot for him. He should go dual to watch for spirits too. He can also sling spells should he need to.
Either FAB I or II (memory glitch), what SOP stand for?
hobgoblin
Apr 23 2009, 05:15 PM
Standard Operating Procedure, most likely...
tho reading is as a norwegian makes one think of mushrooms
Kovu Muphasa
Apr 23 2009, 05:26 PM
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Apr 23 2009, 01:06 PM)

Either FAB I or II (memory glitch), what SOP stand for?
SOP
Standard Operating Procedure
Commander: A good point was made of some of the reasons to have one. He could also be the one who summoned the spirit to use as the Loader.
Gunner: The Decker makes a good choice. Most of the time he would be spending it operating the local PANs, during combat all he needs is a good gunnery skills.
Loader: A Spirit is good choice for three reasons.
1] 3 IP
2] Never gets Tired
3] When that nasty Enemy Spirit shows up it can deal with it. [As for the Auto-Loaders a friend of mine [A Tanker] told me that in the short term a human loader is faster than an Auto-Loader if you are constantly shifting what ammo you want.]
Driver: A Rigger makes a good choice. He can work most of the systems from his location if anyone gets taken out; he is in one of the most protected locations. As the driver he can concentrate on driving. He will also usually have the time to operate the Drone. Who better to operate the Drones maneuvering than the guy who knows where they will be in the next 3 seconds.
As far as the Drone; A good Hovering Drone with a MG or Ares Alpha can easily help deal with soft targets and scout for you.
Kovu Muphasa
Apr 23 2009, 08:00 PM
I keep forgeting this, The consept of the mage on board was for thike the Platoon Comander, Squad Commander at most. With the LATP Game there was usualy on One per shift.
AllTheNothing
Apr 23 2009, 08:11 PM
QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Apr 23 2009, 07:26 PM)

As far as the Drone; A good Hovering Drone with a MG or Ares Alpha can easily help deal with soft targets and scout for you.
Or maybe an Ares Firelance Vehicle Laser or a Ares Heavy MP Laser, for not so soft targets.
Dumori
Apr 23 2009, 08:18 PM
you'd want some thing not too power draining to shoot down missiles and such so not a main weapon such as the Firelance or the ones even bigger.
Warlordtheft
Apr 23 2009, 08:20 PM
QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Apr 23 2009, 04:00 PM)

I keep forgeting this, The consept of the mage on board was for thike the Platoon Comander, Squad Commander at most. With the LATP Game there was usualy on One per shift.
As a side note, if they don't have a mage, there is no reason to not be buttoned up (all hatches closed and sealed including the commander). As to the loader, yeah humans are faster. Especially since it is their life on the line. A spirit wouldn't do as there is some training involved in the loaders position.
PBTHHHHT
Apr 23 2009, 09:17 PM
QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Apr 23 2009, 01:26 PM)

SOP
Standard Operating Procedure
Commander: A good point was made of some of the reasons to have one. He could also be the one who summoned the spirit to use as the Loader.
Loader: A Spirit is good choice for three reasons.
1] 3 IP
2] Never gets Tired
3] When that nasty Enemy Spirit shows up it can deal with it. [As for the Auto-Loaders a friend of mine [A Tanker] told me that in the short term a human loader is faster than an Auto-Loader if you are constantly shifting what ammo you want.]
Forget that, I'd rather have the summoner save his service from the spirit for anything else, it's easier and cheaper to have a metahuman loader than burn a service for a spirit who might or might not be able to do this task. Plus, if you're asking the spirit to load the appropriate ammo and such, is that a new service? Depends on the GM.
Plus, the commander for the tank and platoon should focus on his job. The summoner attached to the tank company (more likely a company or even a battalion than a measley platoon) should focus his job as magic support. Forget the whole thing of having him multi task between commanding the tank, commanding the unit and also doing the wiz mojo drek all at once.
Apathy
Apr 23 2009, 09:41 PM
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Apr 23 2009, 05:17 PM)

Plus, the commander for the tank and platoon should focus on his job. The summoner attached to the tank company (more likely a company or even a battalion than a measley platoon) should focus his job as magic support. Forget the whole thing of having him multi task between commanding the tank, commanding the unit and also doing the wiz mojo drek all at once.
I have to agree with this. Mages and TMs would not be officers, they'd be warrants. They've got special skills that makes them invaluable, and it's a waste of a limited resource to have them spend their time on anything but their specialty. Command/Control and leadership can be learned by any mundane with decent mental stats, so most officers would be mundane.
AllTheNothing
Apr 23 2009, 10:03 PM
QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 23 2009, 10:18 PM)

you'd want some thing not too power draining to shoot down missiles and such so not a main weapon such as the Firelance or the ones even bigger.
The Firelance has an internal reserve of 100 PP (10 shots), which is replenished at the rate of 10 PP/minute; take the McDonnel-Douglas Nimrod, it has two weapon mounts so it can pack two different type of weapons, you can arm it with a laser and a machinegun loaded with APDS so that you can kill small target with the machinegun and big ones with the laser, maybe pairing them with Nimrods armed with MG and Outlaw missile lounchers for widespread havock.
Kovu Muphasa
Apr 23 2009, 10:08 PM
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Apr 23 2009, 05:17 PM)

Forget that, I'd rather have the summoner save his service from the spirit for anything else, it's easier and cheaper to have a metahuman loader than burn a service for a spirit who might or might not be able to do this task. Plus, if you're asking the spirit to load the appropriate ammo and such, is that a new service? Depends on the GM.
Plus, the commander for the tank and platoon should focus on his job. The summoner attached to the tank company (more likely a company or even a battalion than a measley platoon) should focus his job as magic support. Forget the whole thing of having him multi task between commanding the tank, commanding the unit and also doing the wiz mojo drek all at once.
As a Tank Commander after giving orders and such the TC actuly has very little to in combat other than look for targets. if the Tank is sealed he can't cast out of it. If he is sitting out side the turret hatch in combat he asking for bullet through the head.
As far as Number of Mage's in the military???
As a Military Recruter I would go to MIT&M and recrute like mad, IMHO I think most Sr. NCO's and lesser Officers would tend to be Magicaly active.
I just keep think of the night be for the attck the Sr. Mage Ritualty Summing a massive Elemental with all the others in his "Order to Soak the Drain, but that is another object.
As far as I know haveing a Spirit "Fetch" is not a sevice.
Apathy
Apr 23 2009, 11:12 PM
QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Apr 23 2009, 05:08 PM)

As a Tank Commander after giving orders and such the TC actuly has very little to in combat other than look for targets. if the Tank is sealed he can't cast out of it. If he is sitting out side the turret hatch in combat he asking for bullet through the head.
While visibility through the periscopes is somewhat limited, TCs can still see out when the hatch is closed. I'd imagine that a 2070 tank would provide better lines of sight via fiberoptic goggles, also. But I think that wouldn't matter, because the mages are better off behind the front lines, providing spell defense, warding, remote spirit services, and ritual castings. In a pinch they could counterattack spirit assaults via astral projection and fast movement across the battlefield.
My experience as a tank commander was that we're constantly busy and would have no time in combat situations for anything as distracting as casting or summoning. The platoon leader's constantly searching for targets, coordinating the platoon's movement so as to minimize exposure, calling in sitreps, figuring out the coordinates of that ridgeline to call in artillery/air support, looking for indications of chemical agents in the enemy artillery fire, watching for ambushes, obsticles, and terrain hazards, etc. I wouldn't want to be in a platoon where the guy in charge didn't consider leading the platoon his primary responsibility.
Kovu Muphasa
Apr 24 2009, 11:45 AM
QUOTE (Apathy @ Apr 23 2009, 07:12 PM)

While visibility through the periscopes is somewhat limited, TCs can still see out when the hatch is closed. I'd imagine that a 2070 tank would provide better lines of sight via fiberoptic goggles, also. But I think that wouldn't matter, because the mages are better off behind the front lines, providing spell defense, warding, remote spirit services, and ritual castings. In a pinch they could counterattack spirit assaults via astral projection and fast movement across the battlefield.
My experience as a tank commander was that we're constantly busy and would have no time in combat situations for anything as distracting as casting or summoning. The platoon leader's constantly searching for targets, coordinating the platoon's movement so as to minimize exposure, calling in sitreps, figuring out the coordinates of that ridgeline to call in artillery/air support, looking for indications of chemical agents in the enemy artillery fire, watching for ambushes, obsticles, and terrain hazards, etc. I wouldn't want to be in a platoon where the guy in charge didn't consider leading the platoon his primary responsibility.
I bow to a real TC, most of what I know is from a Gunner.
As far as the Sitting back and providing spell support, I am to much of a Patton'ist to think that pasive.
Back to the basic tone of the discusion.
I think there is a place for a MBT in SR, even if it is a "Monster"
I still don't see how a "Mage" makes a MBT Obsolite.
toturi
Apr 24 2009, 12:28 PM
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Apr 23 2009, 09:10 PM)

Background count is going to go up in the area in which fighting takes place, which probably won't be the same over and over, the background count is going to be annoying but it would take some VERY serious dreck to make things go toxic (nuclear weapons or scrotched earth tactics like the one Azzies used in the Yukatan).
War
is very serious drek.
Fuchs
Apr 24 2009, 12:37 PM
Not for background. Unless we're talking Verdun style mass battles over months, most of the background from a battle won't last long, or be particularly high - there simply are not that many soldiers dieing in those kind of wars anymore.
Demonseed Elite
Apr 24 2009, 12:41 PM
Fuchs is correct. Battlefield background count isn't that bad, in most cases, because battles are not usually prolonged engagements with high casualty rates anymore. There are exceptions, as Aztlan has proved. But that included slash-and-burn tactics, chemical warfare, mass killing, spirit warfare, and engagements over the same territory for decades.
toturi
Apr 24 2009, 12:49 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 24 2009, 08:37 PM)

Not for background. Unless we're talking Verdun style mass battles over months, most of the background from a battle won't last long, or be particularly high - there simply are not that many soldiers dieing in those kind of wars anymore.
Any battle significant enough to field tanks (multiple numbers of very costly weaponry backed by very expensive support as well) in the conflict is a major battle and a major battle is enough for Rating 3 for the next hundred years.
So what would be the BC during and immediately after the battle? I would say a lot higher.
In the Yucatan, the background count of the astral space over the area increased more or less permanently. What would be the temporary background count that was generated during those clashes?
Fuchs
Apr 24 2009, 12:50 PM
Or in other words: Killing soldiers in battle simply does not rank high (or at all) on nature's "toxic scale".
Fuchs
Apr 24 2009, 12:59 PM
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 24 2009, 02:49 PM)

Any battle significant enough to field tanks (multiple numbers of very costly weaponry backed by very expensive support as well) in the conflict is a major battle and a major battle is enough for Rating 3 for the next hundred years.
So what would be the BC during and immediately after the battle? I would say a lot higher.
In the Yucatan, the background count of the astral space over the area increased more or less permanently. What would be the temporary background count that was generated during those clashes?
By that definition half of Europe would be BC 3. WW2 alone would turn Berlin, Caen, Dieppe, all of the Bretagne, most of crete and Sicily, Monte Casino, Dunkirch, Most of Eastern Europe, in particular Budapest, Warshaw, Kiew, Kursk, Orel, and any other significant town on the Eastern front as well as dozens of western cities into areas with BC 3. Paris would be BC 3 (battle of 1814, and again in 1871). Then add the Eurowars, and you'd have even more areas contaminated.
Nowhere does it state that the default background rating for Europe is 3. The game doesn't assume that most euorpean mages are effectively operating under such conditions, so batltes can't create BCs on that scale.
toturi
Apr 24 2009, 01:01 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 24 2009, 08:50 PM)

Or in other words: Killing soldiers in battle simply does not rank high (or at all) on nature's "toxic scale".
It might not rank high on the toxic scale. But it is significant on the background count. BC 1 is bad enough considering that even for a Magic 5 character, it is a 20% decrease in his Magic. What would a BC of 3 do to a normal mage? A reduction of 50 to 100% Magic.
toturi
Apr 24 2009, 01:12 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 24 2009, 08:59 PM)

By that definition half of Europe would be BC 3. WW2 alone would turn Berlin, Caen, Dieppe, all of the Bretagne, most of crete and Sicily, Monte Casino, Dunkirch, Most of Eastern Europe, in particular Budapest, Warshaw, Kiew, Kursk, Orel, and any other significant town on the Eastern front as well as dozens of western cities into areas with BC 3. Paris would be BC 3 (battle of 1814, and again in 1871). Then add the Eurowars, and you'd have even more areas contaminated.
Nowhere does it state that the default background rating for Europe is 3. The game doesn't assume that most euorpean mages are effectively operating under such conditions, so batltes can't create BCs on that scale.
It does not need to state that the default background count rating for Europe is 3. You simply need to refer to the Domain Examples on p 121 SM and there you go. Remember that all those battles in WW2 no longer qualify for BC3 since they are >100 years from 2070.
Also following your logic, since the game does not state that level of BC most Chicago mages operate under, therefore they do not. Which is certainly up to you as the GM to handwave it off.
Fuchs
Apr 24 2009, 01:19 PM
I consider the idea that a major battle turns the area into BC3 for the next hundred years - which by the Eurowars alone would make south and eastern Europe a "don't worry about mages, they can't do much here" area - as conflicting with canon descriptions of Europe's countries. It's also rather improbable that after hundred years a BC drops from 3 to zero.
Someone messed up - either the ones writing the sourcebooks covering all those towns, for neglecting to state "Oh, and btw, all over here is BC3" - or the ones making the BC table. I also think that someone would have mentioned the BC, if up until 2045 most of Europe would have been very anti-magical.
hobgoblin
Apr 24 2009, 02:00 PM
from tank stats to background count, how do we do it?
Warlordtheft
Apr 24 2009, 02:08 PM
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 24 2009, 08:19 AM)

I consider the idea that a major battle turns the area into BC3 for the next hundred years - which by the Eurowars alone would make south and eastern Europe a "don't worry about mages, they can't do much here" area - as conflicting with canon descriptions of Europe's countries. It's also rather improbable that after hundred years a BC drops from 3 to zero.
Someone messed up - either the ones writing the sourcebooks covering all those towns, for neglecting to state "Oh, and btw, all over here is BC3" - or the ones making the BC table. I also think that someone would have mentioned the BC, if up until 2045 most of Europe would have been very anti-magical.
Back ground count as I recall degrades pretty quickly, unless the source or cause is prolonged. Auschwitz has a permanent BC of 6 (as I recall). Meanwhile a murdersite might have a BC of 1 or 2 (depending on how violent and painfult it was), however it may last an hour or two, a day or so for 1 time mass murders.
In a battle (modern) it may not be the entire battle field with BC, it would be a fort, building, bunker or such where extensive fighting took place.
Demonseed Elite
Apr 24 2009, 03:07 PM
I'll have to look over Street Magic when I get home. Because toturi's examples certainly don't match the writer's intent (seeing as how I was the writer).
PBTHHHHT
Apr 24 2009, 06:06 PM
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 24 2009, 10:07 AM)

I'll have to look over Street Magic when I get home. Because toturi's examples certainly don't match the writer's intent (seeing as how I was the writer).
Bah, you're only the writer, like your intent matters in the discussion.

Though, I'm with ya hobgoblin. I love how we went from tanks to background count also. heh.
toturi
Apr 25 2009, 12:24 AM
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 24 2009, 11:07 PM)

I'll have to look over Street Magic when I get home. Because toturi's examples certainly don't match the writer's intent (seeing as how I was the writer).
The examples on p121 are quite clear and explicit. By all means, do tell us what your intentions were.
Demonseed Elite
Apr 25 2009, 02:35 AM
I'm guessing you're pointing at the Domain examples on page 121. When I say "major battle" there, I mean a battle of historical importance and significant scale. A battle where tanks were present doesn't necessarily qualify. Regions of the Ardennes Mountains, where the Battle of the Bulge took place, would qualify. Sections of Iwo Jima would certainly qualify (and some areas would be Rating 4 Domains where there are memorials to the battle).
These battles not only affected the soldiers present, but left a lasting impact on humanity resulting in them being remembered for decades and centuries. That's the kind of thing that impacts Astral Space significantly.
Less significant battles will produce background count and possibly even aspected background count (making them Domains), but they won't last nearly as long unless something is sustaining them like continued battling on the site or memorials.
toturi
Apr 25 2009, 03:26 AM
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 25 2009, 10:35 AM)

I'm guessing you're pointing at the Domain examples on page 121. When I say "major battle" there, I mean a battle of historical importance and significant scale. A battle where tanks were present doesn't necessarily qualify. Regions of the Ardennes Mountains, where the Battle of the Bulge took place, would qualify. Sections of Iwo Jima would certainly qualify (and some areas would be Rating 4 Domains where there are memorials to the battle).
These battles not only affected the soldiers present, but left a lasting impact on humanity resulting in them being remembered for decades and centuries. That's the kind of thing that impacts Astral Space significantly.
Less significant battles will produce background count and possibly even aspected background count (making them Domains), but they won't last nearly as long unless something is sustaining them like continued battling on the site or memorials.
Can you think of a tank battle in the 6th world that will not be of historical importance or significant scale? Sure, a battle between tank platoons may not generate as much BC, but a clash of battalion sized or larger armor forces?
But that is not my primary point. My point was that if a battle still leaves such a Background Count about slightly less than 100 years after the fact, how high was the Background Count then?
Demonseed Elite
Apr 25 2009, 03:45 AM
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 24 2009, 11:26 PM)

Can you think of a tank battle in the 6th world that will not be of historical importance or significant scale? Sure, a battle between tank platoons may not generate as much BC, but a clash of battalion sized or larger armor forces?
Your original position didn't mention a clash of battalion sized forces:
QUOTE
Any battle significant enough to field tanks (multiple numbers of very costly weaponry backed by very expensive support as well) in the conflict is a major battle and a major battle is enough for Rating 3 for the next hundred years.
That's the part I was disagreeing with. Tanks are fielded in battles much smaller than battalion-sized clashes. So saying that a battle that fields tanks is significant enough to generate a Rating 3 Domain for the next hundred years is the part I was responding to.
QUOTE
But that is not my primary point. My point was that if a battle still leaves such a Background Count about slightly less than 100 years after the fact, how high was the Background Count then?
Roughly the same, possibly a rating point higher, possibly a rating point lower. The idea isn't that the Background Count in these situations has been degrading over time, it's that the event was significant enough to humanity or the Gaiasphere to be maintained at its original level. In some cases, the background count of the original event will be less, because it's the psychological and emotional impact on humanity
after the fact that strengthens the background count.
Fuchs
Apr 25 2009, 11:33 AM
Which basically means killing soldiers in battle is not going to rock the astral boat much unless sometime (usually after the battle) humanity decides that this killing was very, very special.
toturi
Apr 25 2009, 11:56 AM
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 25 2009, 11:45 AM)

Your original position didn't mention a clash of battalion sized forces:
That's the part I was disagreeing with. Tanks are fielded in battles much smaller than battalion-sized clashes. So saying that a battle that fields tanks is significant enough to generate a Rating 3 Domain for the next hundred years is the part I was responding to.
Tanks may be fielded in battles smaller than battalion size but while one company may be holding the fort here, the other companies of the battalion will generally be out wrecking havoc on some other part of the battlefield. Taken as a whole, what would be the smallest armored battle group in a time of war?
Which is a trick question actually... To the best of my knowledge, an armored battle group generally refers to a battalion sized unit with attendant support.
QUOTE
Roughly the same, possibly a rating point higher, possibly a rating point lower. The idea isn't that the Background Count in these situations has been degrading over time, it's that the event was significant enough to humanity or the Gaiasphere to be maintained at its original level. In some cases, the background count of the original event will be less, because it's the psychological and emotional impact on humanity after the fact that strengthens the background count.
Which doesn't detract from the possibility that the Background Count of the original event may be
much more but the psychological and emotional impact on humanity after the fact may so small as to cause that initial wound in the astral to gradually fade, does it?
For example an entire village is wiped out from the face of the planet by a military strike but there is nobody to mourn them. The initial impact may be genocide, but that impact gradually weakens because there is no one around to remember. Does Background Count gradually fade if there are no longer any emotional or psychological impact associated with the area after the initial event?
Demonseed Elite
Apr 25 2009, 01:18 PM
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 25 2009, 07:56 AM)

Which doesn't detract from the possibility that the Background Count of the original event may be much more but the psychological and emotional impact on humanity after the fact may so small as to cause that initial wound in the astral to gradually fade, does it?
I tend to think it's helpful to imagine background count rating as being scales of magnitude, like the Richter scale for earthquakes. The amount of psycho-emotive trauma to go from Rating 1 background count to Rating 2 background count may not be much, but the amount needed to go from Rating 5 to Rating 6 is considerable. But yes, the original event could have a higher background count which fades. I'd just caution against huge spikes of background count, battles should not be routinely causing Rating 4, 5, or 6 background counts, even in the short term. These are special cases. Most events generate temporary background count levels of 1 or 2.
QUOTE
For example an entire village is wiped out from the face of the planet by a military strike but there is nobody to mourn them. The initial impact may be genocide, but that impact gradually weakens because there is no one around to remember. Does Background Count gradually fade if there are no longer any emotional or psychological impact associated with the area after the initial event?
Yes. If there were regular memorials or vigils at the site, it's likely to lengthen the duration of the background count and could possibly even raise the background count if the area becomes a symbol for something.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Apr 25 2009, 02:51 PM
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 24 2009, 05:24 PM)

The examples on p121 are quite clear and explicit. By all means, do tell us what your intentions were.
Seems pretty clear to me... But hey, to each his own...
Kovu Muphasa
Apr 25 2009, 03:42 PM
I am wondering [trying to get sort of back on topic] Game Mechanicaly Speaking; How can a Mage or Speitiy take out a MBT that is buttened up?
GreyBrother
Apr 25 2009, 03:46 PM
Hey God, if i take the rules of gravitation into account a bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly. SCNR
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Apr 26 2009, 02:41 AM
QUOTE (Kovu Muphasa @ Apr 25 2009, 09:42 AM)

I am wondering [trying to get sort of back on topic] Game Mechanicaly Speaking; How can a Mage or Speitiy take out a MBT that is buttened up?
Well... Cast Spell (Power Bolt) with High Force (Say 12)... Beat Object Resistance (5or 6) and then deal damage accordingly (12+ Damage anyone; sure it will be physical damage, but who cares)... Rinse and Repeat... NO Armor, No Body... Just down right Damage...
Say you got a Tank with 30 Body, you have a Damage track of 23... Two successful applications and no more tank...
Fun Times
Even Better (for less Drain) use Wreck Tank... Rinse and Repeat
toturi
Apr 26 2009, 02:56 AM
Ramp shaped barrier. Lift and topple. No need to beat OR.
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