As part of the peripheral cultural landscape of Seattle: Yeah.
As integral part of the Seattle plex setting itself: Hell, no!

Im talking about the flavour as shown in art and fluff throughout the book.

A subtle, but relevant, example: here.

Images like that helps to show the influence that the native neighborhood effects in Seattle ( in fashion, in this case). I would like to see more of it, as we saw in the old editions. It used to give a certain unique "character" to Shadowrun that wasnt seen in any other sci-fi/cyberpunk work.

I agree it gave character to Seattle, which at the time was pretty much the entirety of Shadowrun. Over the years, the fact that Seattle was the "setpiece" setting of Shadowrun has actually been to its detriment. As new concepts and power groups were invented it seems the authors felt obligated to make sure they were represented in Seattle somewhere. Consequently, I feel like Seattle has lost its uniqueness as a city/setting and has become bland. I think the contrast in Runner Havens shows it best. Hong Kong was written and given such colour, flavour, and personality. In contrast, the writeup on Seattle just seemed bland.

I also didn't like the fact that two temporary events got so much treatment in the description: the Seattle election, and the Mayan Cutter. Now, I didn't have anything against those two ideas as in and of themselves, they were great plot hooks. However, in my mind, they were something that deserved to be compartmentalized into their own sections, not distributed all throughout the description of Seattle. It almost seemed like the author(s) couldn't come up with enough material/ideas for Seattle itself to stand on its own so they had to pump up their word count by talking about some things going on in Seattle. It just seemed to clutter up what was supposed to be a location book with temporary/transient events that will (should) quickly become obsolete.

For example, the Seattle gubernatorial (what a great word!) are now over, in the "official" timeline: Brackhaven won. So, now I have pages of outdated, irrelevant material in my Seattle sourcebook. I was very excited and happy when I heard about Seattle 2072. I think they're going to get it right this time.

Influence? Yes. Flavor? Yes. Overpowering it and dominating it? Not really.

The amerindian element NEVER overpowered/dominated Seattle. Just was significantly present to the point of giving the city a distinct flavour, as malachi said. The picture I posted earlier ( THIS ) is a perfect exemple, and in it the amerindian flavour isnt overpowered nor dominating.

I don't recall the Amerinds ever being that heavily emphasized in any of the Seattle sourcebooks of days gone by, other than in terms of historical reference and Council Island (and throw-away lines about tribal fashions). That's what the two NAN volumes and SoNA were for. The SR1 BBB had more illustrations of street folk with feathers than Seattle Sourcebook or New Seattle.

Basically, Amerindian influence was a lot more emphasized in the earlier editions in general (especially in the artwork) and since Seattle was the default setting, it colored Seattle as well. But the chapter on Seattle in the back of the core Second Edition rulebook, for example, had quite a bit of word count discussing the surrounding Salish.

But I do think it's an essential part of Seattle's flavor and should be emphasized more in descriptions of that sprawl now, since it's naturally de-emphasized in the game as it has gone more global. Part of the unique nature of Sixth World Seattle is that it is an extraterritorial island surrounded by a Native American Nation and cut off from its homeland from a number of other Native American Nations. Leaving out the cultural impact of that would be like describing British-controlled Hong Kong (or even Sixth World corporate-controlled Hong Kong) without Chinese cultural influences.

I disagree with this post on more levels than I care to count. Seattle was a fine center for Shadowrun. As the game moved on, yes, groups were added, stories were added. However, I have never been impressed with the additions. Most of them copy the world at the time of writing. Seatlle was VASTLY different from reality. It represented dramatic changes within the Shadowrun timeline. Some of the sourcebooks did this well, both NAN, both TIR, Neo-A. And then the trend became to copy what you could go see on tour.
Hong Kong feel like it was written by someone with an Octopus card, a recorder and a week to travel around. I can't run in Hong Kong at my table because the natives give me a nasty look and say "We are here for fantasy not to hear about Hong Kong".
None of us are from Africa or South America, so I can always use the Frommers ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H newer color material for travel sessions.

I would rather have a book that detailed Seattle in the old school way than any of the new world area books. The following example was made from the openly published adventure Zero Sum Gain. Catalyst, I got $75 for a great 200 page full color Seattle with lots of detail like this, a heap of shadowtalk and no fat errrr Fiction.

Ok, fair enough. Though, as I read your post you seem to be agreeing with me, just for different reasons (aside from the Hong Kong point, but that's fine). I too, would like Seattle 2072 to return to the flavour that previous publications of it had. Given the now global nature of Shadowrun in the 4th edition era, I think its time to refresh Seattle as its own unique setting like Hong Kong, Chicago, Lagos, Neo Toyko, or Los Angeles. Each of those locations was detailed with its own uniqueness whereas Seattle just seemed to be the "city that has everything." A big step towards that would be bringing back the Amerindian angle, since that is something unique to Seattle.

I disagree with you on the fiction, however. I have enjoyed the fiction in the sourcebooks as I think it provides great context to the contents of the book. I see them akin to examples that implement rules, oftentimes things are so much clearer when you see them "in practice." However, everyone will have different opinions and tastes.

I want the fraggin fiction in the form of novels. I do, and I would buy them. There is just too many pages spent on stories for me in the rules books. Sourcebooks are all about fiction but of a dry kind, perhaps I could have chosen my words better. I want fiction, I don't want stories.

The little examples for rules are awesome and I think the clarification you talk of could also occur in Shadowchat.

Let us both hope we get an stupendously awesome Seattle book, with many details.

Well, from what I've heard, Seattle 2072 is going to be patterned heavily after the original Seattle sourcebook (including full-colour, fold-out maps, I hear), so I think they're heading in the right direction.

If that is true, then I suppose I'm going to "need" this book.

-paws

This is AWESOME.


It depicts a place with a lot of style and in a fast and pleasure reading. I would prefer this over any fiction pieces.

In the same way that you "need" to make that ultimate Burnout Mage character?

A good SR campaign will be fueled either by Orientalism or Amerindianism. The strength of Amerindianism is that it lets you revisit the ramen stand scene in Blade Runner except that Harrison Ford is a Native American hipster and he's spouting platitudes about the Great Spirit and the laxative properties of stone-ground corn.

Eh, I prefer a bit of the Anglophilia myself.

"Wos ee sayin', guv?"
"I believe he has informed you that the constabulary has placed you under protective custody, old bean."
"Roight. Tell 'em to sod off. I'm eatin' me bangers and mash."

I think Seattle became the city that has everything to show the way the city works. Seattle is the place where anything/anyone can be/is/has been and the city itself has become a huge mishmash of all the places those things come from. Sort of like NYC in the early 1900s (and some would say even today). Seattle is a giant mishmash of all the "unique" settings because it is filled with people from them, and that is what makes Seattle unique. It's the one place where you can find people from China, Chicago, Lagos, Japan, LA all side by side at the local noodle shop, dining on Chili Chow Mein with a side of Mozarella filled Fried Plantains.

Forgive the 'metagame' viewpoint, but didn't Seattle become the focus of Shadowrun in the early stages because the developers were from there?

I was never a fan of it when it was too overt as I've never been a fan of the Amerindian nations idea anyway. And even above and beyond that, they often strike me as carictures. A trace of it, like the feather in the hair, I don't mind. I see the SR world being best when it's a polyglot of cultural influences.

Dont think so. FASA was from Chicago.

FASA was in Chicago, but Jordan Weisman (one of SR's original creators) lives in Seattle. I don't know if he lived there when he was thinking up Shadowrun, though.

Not only were there too many caricatures for my liking, the sheer fact that the native american population is so small.... even with the awakening and a powerful shamanic presence, the native american population is not and will not be big enough in any part of the west to take over that much territory. the tragic fact of it is even if you included all the assimilated "but i am 1/16th sioux/cherokee/algonquin/etc" americans, native americans are still one the rarest ethnicites in the US: according to latest US census projected 0.95 % of the total US population is single-race native american, and .54% of US total population is mixed race native american. only pacific islander/native hawaiian has a lower population.

you can factor in all the "yeah but census numbers are always skewed" and anecdotal "but i live out west and that can't be right" statements you want but the closest we are going to get to a real answer is census info.

http://www.census.gov/popest/archives/files/MRSF-01-US1.html

anyway not to get too off-topic but i always felt like the native american representation in my beloved shadowrun always bordered on exploitational, esepcially in light of how decimated the native populations have been since european colonization. anthropologists estimate the total population of pre-columbus (when it was 100% native american population) north america was roughly the same of the total population of north america in the mid 20th century (when it was approx only 1-2% native american population).

Do I like the idea of the native americans rising again? sure

but the idea that they could conquer so much of the UCAS is almost parody when you consider how decimated their population has been over the past few centuries. the fact is that there just arent enough native americans to have so much influence on 2072 north america, uber-shamans or not. it would be more likely that all the viewers of american idol rise up and conquer half of the US and candian territories and establish distinct governments based on who their favorite contestants are, because more americans watch american idol than can claim native american heritage (or vote in presidential elections for that matter).

Ah, the only 2E books I own are sourcebooks so I was unaware of that. Still I maintain that the past three Seattle SBs have never delved into the Salish and other Amerinds other than in passing and in history paragraphs. But I agree that should be remedied if Seattle wants to stand out as more than the "default" setting.


Shadowrun is parody, not Post-Futurism. And I dare anyone to prove me otherwise. I check my brain at the door when it comes to comparing RL statistics to SR as it's a fool's errand. But for the sake of completeness, here are NAN population stats according to SoNA:

Algonkian-Manitou - 5,066,000 (52% tribal affiliation)
Athabaskan - 2,522,000 (22% tribal affiliation)
Pueblo - 12,195,000 (59% tribal affiliation)
Salish-Shidhe - 8,590,000 (86% tribal affiliation)
Sioux - 6,306,000 (63% tribal affiliation)
Tsimshian [Salish protectorate] - 955,000 (78% tribal affiliation)
Ute [now part of PCC] - 3,310,000 (90% tribal affiliation)

I don't have my Target: Wastelands with me so I can't pull the Transpolar-Aleut population numbers.

The population numbers will never, ever work out. Even if you include Hispanic sympathizers who were granted tribal status. Still, it's part of the fantasy of Shadowrun, like dragons and magic. It was there at Shadowrun's creation, so it can't be ignored. It's part of the game.

In Canada, the fastest growing segment of the population are the First Nations people. The Inuit in the far north have regained and surpassed their numbers before the advent of Europeans, and constitute the majority of the population in the Territory of Nunavut (formerly part of Northwest Territories). The Province of Saskatchewan will in short order be majority First Nations and Métis. Large tracts of land in Canada are subject to Native Land Claims (many of which would have been settled if not for the recent change of party in government). A significant portion of Canada is Canadian in any real sense because of the occupation and continued use by native peoples.

The fact that maybe one fifth of the Canadian population lives in three large cities skews our perceptions of how this country is peopled, occupied, defined. Many of us think of our country as a collection of urban zones, but the reality is that most of it is sparsely populated, and much of that sparse population is First Nations, Métis or Inuit.

EDIT: Added Métis to Saskatchewan population comment for completeness.

Your numbers neglect the "C" in UCAS.

The 2006 Canadian census identified that 3.75% of the population of Canada is North American Indian, metis, or Inuit by being a Treaty Indian, Registered Indian (both of those are defined in the Indian Act of Canada) or those persons officially part of an Indian Band or First Nation. Census 2006 numbers puts the estimated Indian population in Canada at 1,172,790.

Well until I see those transpolar numbers I am not convinced. j/k

You're right, it IS parody, and I have plenty of imagination to suspend my disbelief it just always rubbed the wrong way since my first game (2nd edition circa 1995). Not the rise of the NANs, just the over-the-top epic scale of it. The idea that the american west and pacific coast would have so many different tribal NAN nations seced and conquer and all the latinos (mexican or otherwise) would move down to mexico/aztlan? it always kinda insulted my intelligence and piqued my liberal white guilt. I roll with it, as part of the setting, but since the OP was asking, I had to say it...

Damn skippy!

-paws

Agree. I was jsut sayin'

3.75 % of the candian population. thanks for the data, but it reinforces my point. That still means there are more canadians that own a Rush album or have seen a junior hockey game this year than there are native americans, eh?

it also still doesnt account for the huge salish, sioux, pueblo, etc nations on the 2070 north american map does it?

The American/Canadian Hispanic population didn't move to Aztlan. If anything, it was a bit of the opposite, since native Mexicans are second-class citizens in Aztlan; where the peninsulars (Hispanics from European Spanish blood) are the elites of society. If there was an American/Canadian Hispanic population shift, it was into the NAN.

So they're not all registered "indians" then. Personally, I don't really get that bent out of shape if the population numbers aren't realistic. It has very, very little bearing on the SR game that I actually run. I always thought that the most unrealistic part of the NAN was them kicked out all the anglos, carte blanche. Realistically, they probably should keep all the anglos that a) didn't take part in the oppression and b) had something meaningful to contribute to the operation of the nation. I always imagined them "adopting" a lot of people into the tribes that way. I know quite a few environmentally conscious white people that would probably jump at the chance of joining a more environmentally-minded nation.

They didn't kick out all the anglos. Just look at the population numbers that Wesley quoted above:



Note the percentages of tribal affiliation. There's quite a few people in the NAN who are not at all affiliated with an Amerind tribal nation. Some of those are anglos.

trust me, i am by no means bent out of shape, i just thought it was #1 of the 3 silliest quirks of the SR setting.
2 is elves and dwarves
3 is "chummer" and "drek"

very good point. i never really considered that...

The NAN nations have been providing healthcare to the downtrodden preganant non-tribals in their terretories for decades now. Genetically rewriting your kids ethnicity to a Native American one is just a prerequisite of the public health care. Likewise, it's a popular thing to do for anyone that wants to get past the glass ceilings in the NANs.

Just a twisted idea...

There is actually quite a lot of historical evidence to support the assumption that NAN peoples would be quite willing to 'bring into the fold' people of different ethnic backgrounds. This was standard practice for centuries for keeping the population up in order to counter losses due to warfare, disease, etc.

[aside]
There is an interesting book out, A Fair Country by John Ralston Saul, a well-known Canadian author who argues that a large part of the Canadian 'national character' derives from that very inclusiveness that was extended towards French and English colonists in the first 250 years or so of nation building here. A major thesis of his, which has raised some hackles, is that Canada fails to reach its potential because Canadians are too busy trying to be Europeans or Americans (themselves archetypically European) and the financial and political elite too bent on staying colonials to allow our true nature to express itself. It's a good read.
[/aside]

I've never seen Shadowrun as parody personally despite it always having had some over the top stuff in it. The Amerindian thing has always been the silliest element in SR to me. They explain the appearance of trolls, orcs, elves, etc. They explain the rise of corps, but they don't explain how a tiny fragment of the population not only takes over a good chunk of North America, but then explodes in population. Personally, my take has always been that the population numbers posted include a lot of people with little to no genetic connection to the tribe in question. Tribal affiliation being more akin to membership in the communist party in old time USSR.

The more I dig into my older books the stronger my belief in that Shadowrun was set up as satire and a parody of cyberpunk tropes grows. Maybe it wasn't deliberate, maybe it was. But that's okay because Robocop (really any Verhoeven sci-fi flick) is satire and it's still rad as hell.

The whole game is set up as an excuse to poke fun of the human condition. The white man sure did a number on the Native Americans with those smallpox blankets and broken treaties so wouldn't it be a hoot if the Indians got their revenge? Want to talk about racism? Let's get rid of the whole skin color debate and swap it out with humans and monsters (see also: X-Men, Alien Nation). Want to talk about rampant capitalism and greed? The world is run by corporations and they're fucking over their very consumer base in a self-destructive cycle. Want to mock macho-manliness? Provide player characters with the most ridiculous weapon platforms devised and throw in some swords too! Think that rebels and punks are a lot of hypocritical poseurs? Exaggerate every counter-cultural stereotype. All children are scared of boogeymen in the closet, right? What if they were real and were insects from another dimension? Aren't politicians ridiculously evil and corrupt? A benevolent lizard-monster would be a perfect President! Don't forget the obligatory Christ reference; Dunklezhan sacrificing himself so that humanity would have a future. And that's just what I can pull off the top of my head. The list goes on and on.

SR isn't 2300AD. It never attempts to predict the future (even tossing aside the magic and monsters angle) in any academic manner, just as CP2020 doesn't. It simply exaggerates the modern day for the sake of story.

The post above is so full of win, win spilled out of my monitor and all over my desk.
We need a mod system here so I can throw that man some points.

BlueMax

That's kind of comparing Apples and Jet Engines.

I mean, drek, what house in Canada doesn't have a Rush Album? Both in and out of Reserves.

Also, IIRC, some of those numbers given include anyone who could prove they had even a small percentage of "Amerindian Blood". And the 3.75% would not include the Metis Community, which is quite, quite large.

At least here in Manitoba. I mean, where else are you going to find a statue to the man who ran a rebellion against Canada on the grounds of the Provincial Legislature?

Admittedly, he was elected to the House of Commons three times during his Exile from Canada. So he was a popular guy at the time...

The numbers do include Metis that have Registered or are part of a Band or First Nation. You do make a good point, though. There are a great number of people that can claim Native American ancestry (metis) that have not bothered to go through the process of becoming a Registered or Treaty Indian, live on a Reserve, or officially join a Band or First Nation. Not to mention (as I mentioned earlier) a large segment of anglo-european's that identify better with the "back to the land lifestyle" that the NAN would be offering.