Full Version: Can illusionary mirrors create LOS?
This is kind of similar to the old "invisible door" problem (if you make a door invisible, do you have LOS to anyone in the room?).
Oh Lordy, I don't want to be the first person to respond to this..... blast.
My 2-yen is that no, a trid phantasm mirror is not real. It will "reflect" whatever the caster wants it to reflect, not an actual image.
If you're having trouble getting a LOS, devise a new spell (manipulation) called "Make Mirror" (or "Make Shiny" for the duller mages). Such a spell would transmute the properties of any matter (maybe even a volume of air--it ain't that hard to do) such that it would reflect light towards the caster as long as the spell was sustained.
My 2-yen is that no, a trid phantasm mirror is not real. It will "reflect" whatever the caster wants it to reflect, not an actual image.
If you're having trouble getting a LOS, devise a new spell (manipulation) called "Make Mirror" (or "Make Shiny" for the duller mages). Such a spell would transmute the properties of any matter (maybe even a volume of air--it ain't that hard to do) such that it would reflect light towards the caster as long as the spell was sustained.
Well, I'll back you up on that one Ranger. From my understanding of illusionary magic in Shadowrun, I would say that the mage casting the 'mirror' is only making an image out of magical energy that seems to be the real thing. However, it is magic and not a mirror, so I don't think that light would reflect off of it in the conventional sense. Illusions either affect the mind or digital devices. Never once have I seen verbage that states that an illusion actually exists in the physical sense. I would say no.
Basically what RangerJoe said.
If you use TridPhantasm you have to fill in all the details from your your own miniscule mage mind, including the images that you want a phantasmal mirror to reflect. Which you could do if you actually had LOS to what was being reflected but without it, you either have a mirror that doesn't reflect (interesting way to convince someone they're a vampire) or your best guess at what's around the corner which may in fact be wildly inaccurate.
If you use TridPhantasm you have to fill in all the details from your your own miniscule mage mind, including the images that you want a phantasmal mirror to reflect. Which you could do if you actually had LOS to what was being reflected but without it, you either have a mirror that doesn't reflect (interesting way to convince someone they're a vampire) or your best guess at what's around the corner which may in fact be wildly inaccurate.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| (if you make a door invisible, do you have LOS to anyone in the room?). |
No you don't.
However if you created a Manipulation spell called "Make Translucent" then I'd say that you do.
No, the mirror doesn't create LOS. Why not?
Because it's maaaaaagic...
~J
Because it's maaaaaagic...
~J
| QUOTE (Grey) | ||
No you don't. |
But do you still see what's on the other side of the door?
No, since you have no cognizance on what is on the other side with a spell of that type.
Make Transparent would do that, however.
Make Transparent would do that, however.
What is this?? Everyone agreeing? Fight fight fight!
Sorry, I just felt compelled to stand by what I voted for.
I'd have to agree with Ranger Joe, just because he wants a "make shiny" spell. That, and the idea of a trid phantasm mirror is half a step short of casting spells through crystal balls.
Sorry, I just felt compelled to stand by what I voted for.
I'd have to agree with Ranger Joe, just because he wants a "make shiny" spell. That, and the idea of a trid phantasm mirror is half a step short of casting spells through crystal balls.
| QUOTE (Crimson Jack) |
| However, it is magic and not a mirror, so I don't think that light would reflect off of it in the conventional sense. Illusions either affect the mind or digital devices. Never once have I seen verbage that states that an illusion actually exists in the physical sense. |
But the description of Indirect Illusions states that they "manipulate energy"*. Electromagnetic radiation (light) is a form of energy. Creating 'real' light images would explain how a Physical Indirect Illusion (like Trid Phantasm) could fool machines as well.
* Granted, the description is vague enough that it could also just mean mana energy. But since all spells (by definition) manipulate mana energy, why would the authors make a point of mentioning it again? Is it really so easy to write it off as just a redundant statement?
For the record, while I do personally interpret Physical Indirect Illusions as manipulating light to create visual illusions (and letting you see what's on the other side of an invisible door), I don't think they should be usable for establishing LOS either. Why? Well, as Kagetenshi put it...
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Because it's maaaaaagic... |
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| No, since you have no cognizance on what is on the other side with a spell of that type. Make Transparent would do that, however. |
So what do you see then in your games? (Just curious)
Well, no one has tried to make an "invisible object" spell, so it hasn't come up with.
I'd say the mage can fill the space with whatever he imagines on the other side of the door.
This includes hot elven chicks. Man, I'd better not let Buttons see this thread.
I'd say the mage can fill the space with whatever he imagines on the other side of the door.
This includes hot elven chicks. Man, I'd better not let Buttons see this thread.
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| Well, no one has tried to make an "invisible object" spell, so it hasn't come up with. |
Huh? Why wouldn't plain old Invisibility work? AFAIK, it can be cast on things just as well as people.
He means a Manipulation to make light actually pass through it, I believe.
~J
~J
Kind of like ruthenium except not?
I vote no. You can use an illusionary mirror to look around a corner, but it's not actually reflecting the light, it's magically creating new light, so you can't use it to target spells. I'd treat invisible doors the same way, too. You can see "through" them, but you can't target spells through them. The spell "knows" what's on the other side of the door/reflected in the mirror via a limited form of clairvoyance.
YAY!
It's like the Casting through invisibility thread all over again!
It's like the Casting through invisibility thread all over again!
Why not just use c4 on the door and then shoot whoever's left on the other side?
Seriously though - Clairvoyance would seem like a better idea and that specifically cannot be used for casting. It would upset game balance too much IMO.
Seriously though - Clairvoyance would seem like a better idea and that specifically cannot be used for casting. It would upset game balance too much IMO.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| Huh? Why wouldn't plain old Invisibility work? AFAIK, it can be cast on things just as well as people. |
Most likely since indirect illusion spells by definition are cast around a person or over an area *basic discription / definition of indirect illusions*.
That implies that actually you cannot cast the spell on single-target objects.
It's either a person (single-target) or an area (area-effect) ~shrugs~
As for the invisible door or an illusionary mirror in general: No matter how you try to explain physical illusions, they still are just that: Illusions. So anything you "see", even if it's the perfect match of reality (when doors becoming invisible *if you happen to allow it regardless of the spell category's definition* or virtual mirrors "reflecting" pictures) it's still not the required LOS for spell targeting ...
But a physical spell creates PHYSICAL changes... that's why it fools sensors, cameras etc.
So whilst a mana mirror might not cut it, a physical one should do the job.
As for invisible doors... well... not wanting to kick off mega-debate, I argue you couldn't cast a spell through it although you would see what was on the other side.
Reasoning for this? Well, invisibility makes it invisible, if I go invisible and stand in front of something with my back to it... I can't see it, but if you look at me you can. However, to cast a spell at it the spell would have to go through the 'invisible area' where there is a spell effect blocking the way, so you'd have to cast through my spell to hit the object. Sound convincing? As for allowing yourself to see through invisible objects, I always thought people who resisted illusion spells get the best of both worlds, ie. they know there is a spell there, and they can see it's effects, but they also know it's false and see what's really there too.
So whilst a mana mirror might not cut it, a physical one should do the job.
As for invisible doors... well... not wanting to kick off mega-debate, I argue you couldn't cast a spell through it although you would see what was on the other side.
Reasoning for this? Well, invisibility makes it invisible, if I go invisible and stand in front of something with my back to it... I can't see it, but if you look at me you can. However, to cast a spell at it the spell would have to go through the 'invisible area' where there is a spell effect blocking the way, so you'd have to cast through my spell to hit the object. Sound convincing? As for allowing yourself to see through invisible objects, I always thought people who resisted illusion spells get the best of both worlds, ie. they know there is a spell there, and they can see it's effects, but they also know it's false and see what's really there too.
| QUOTE (Prototype) |
| But a physical spell creates PHYSICAL changes... that's why it fools sensors, cameras etc. So whilst a mana mirror might not cut it, a physical one should do the job. |
No, it's still a physical illusion. The change occurs within the perception of the perceiver. So what you're seeing is not reality, although the picture might be a perfect copy of what you would see if you had a real mirror or if the "invisible" door wasn't there ...
If I creat a Physical Illusion of a M1A1 as long as people fail their tests to notice it is a spell can I run over all the gangs I see and crash into a corporate compound and shoot big holes in the walls with it's 105 mm howitzer? On the morre practical side, can I creat a Physical Illusion of a new Saab so I don't have to lay out the 250,000 
for it, as long as I use my Physical Illusion of a sustaining focus to sustain it, it should be in my garage. Just curious, if a Illusion spell Physical or otherwise can bend light or creat mirrors to do it, then I can have my pocket M1A1, just pull out my Foci then wish for tank, then sustain. happy driving. Oh and if the cops come just stop sustaining itand no more tank.
EDIT: Can I make an Illusion of a laser burning your face off, after all I am just bending light, which is in the realm of Illusions right? So I can just Illusion your face off, and you die.
for it, as long as I use my Physical Illusion of a sustaining focus to sustain it, it should be in my garage. Just curious, if a Illusion spell Physical or otherwise can bend light or creat mirrors to do it, then I can have my pocket M1A1, just pull out my Foci then wish for tank, then sustain. happy driving. Oh and if the cops come just stop sustaining itand no more tank.EDIT: Can I make an Illusion of a laser burning your face off, after all I am just bending light, which is in the realm of Illusions right? So I can just Illusion your face off, and you die.
Why has no-one pointed out that if someone were truely invisible they would be unable to see? I thought that point always got raised in these discussions.
The spells create an illusion of invisibility - I thought the clue was in the spell category name.
The spells create an illusion of invisibility - I thought the clue was in the spell category name.
Hmmmm... total nonsense.
Your illusory mirror is purely that, an illusion, I didn't claim otherwise... but a physical illusion actually creates the images that you want so they can be seen by cameras et al, it is not purely in the mind as a mana illusion is.
So yes, you could create a tank, or a laser, or a giant leather cock ring if that's what you're into... and you could take photos of them and send them to all your friends but you couldn't get in the tank or do me any damage with the laser, because they aren't real.
Your illusory mirror is purely that, an illusion, I didn't claim otherwise... but a physical illusion actually creates the images that you want so they can be seen by cameras et al, it is not purely in the mind as a mana illusion is.
So yes, you could create a tank, or a laser, or a giant leather cock ring if that's what you're into... and you could take photos of them and send them to all your friends but you couldn't get in the tank or do me any damage with the laser, because they aren't real.
That was my point, Physical Illusions are not real so there for can not make a mirror for you to see around corners. I make obsurd suggestion to prove the point. Thank you playing Sarcasm your parting gifts are over there on the Illusionary table.
| QUOTE (Cochise) | ||
Most likely since indirect illusion spells by definition are cast around a person or over an area *basic discription / definition of indirect illusions*. That implies that actually you cannot cast the spell on single-target objects. It's either a person (single-target) or an area (area-effect) ~shrugs~ |
I'm still not following. If I'm casting an illusion on a door, then I'm casting the spell on a 1" x 36" x 72" area, no? As long as the door is smaller than (Magic) meters in diameter, why wouldn't I be able to make it invisible?
| QUOTE (Frag-o Delux) |
| If I creat a Physical Illusion of a M1A1 as long as people fail their tests to notice it is a spell can I run over all the gangs I see and crash into a corporate compound and shoot big holes in the walls with it's 105 mm howitzer? |
You can try, but since the description for Illusions states that they can do no real harm, your 'victims' would figure it out fairly quickly.
| QUOTE |
| n the morre practical side, can I creat a Physical Illusion of a new Saab so I don't have to lay out the 250,000 for it, as long as I use my Physical Illusion of a sustaining focus to sustain it, it should be in my garage. |
Sure, if you just want something pretty in your garage. However, since Indirect Illusion spells manipulate energy, not matter, there still wouldn't be anything to physically sit in.
| QUOTE |
| Can I make an Illusion of a laser burning your face off, after all I am just bending light, which is in the realm of Illusions right? So I can just Illusion your face off, and you die. |
Again, illusions can't directly harm anyone. Therfore, if Indirect Illusions do indeed manipulate energy, the implication is that they cannot do so with sufficent finesse to create lasers or otherwise create a hazardous environment. That's the realm of Elemental Manipulations.
This question was raised back in the old forums as well (not the mirror one, the invis one... but theyre really the same question). I went head and asked rob boyle about it, and here is the original question and his response:
| QUOTE |
| >The rules for the ability of spells to affect LOS for the purpose of spell >targeting are somewhat unclear, and I was hoping that an official >clarification could be provided. The Spell Targeting section in the main >book states that spells that alter vision can not be used to obtain line >of sight, however, neither invisibility nor improved invisibility >*directly* alter vision. Could a spellcaster cast a spell at a person on >the other side of an invisible wall? Assuming there is nothing blocking line of sight, then yes. Obviously the invisible wall isn't blocking LOS, just as a pane of clear glass doesn't block LOS. (Note that an elemental manipulation spell will hit the wall first, though.) So can a magician make a wall invisible in order to cast spells at targets on the other side? Technically, yes, it's a clever little cheat. Of course the magician has to beat the wall's Object Resistance when spellcasting, has to fail to resist the spell himself, and will then be sustaining an invisibility spell. And the targets will also be able to see him. (If a GM is really annoyed by this trick, he could rule that magicians cannot mentally fool themselves in this way, and so it wouldn't work; personally I think there are enough drawbacks for it to be allowed.) A spell like clairvoyance, however, could not be used to gain LOS. > Is the answer to this question different for the two invisibility spells? No. :: Rob Boyle :: Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com |
It didnt *settle* the argument then, just as it wont now... but, its something to ponder at least as the closest thing to an official ruling.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) | ||||||
You can try, but since the description for Illusions states that they can do no real harm, your 'victims' would figure it out fairly quickly.
Sure, if you just want something pretty in your garage. However, since Indirect Illusion spells manipulate energy, not matter, there still wouldn't be anything to physically sit in.
Again, illusions can't directly harm anyone. Therfore, if Indirect Illusions do indeed manipulate energy, the implication is that they cannot do so with sufficent finesse to create lasers or otherwise create a hazardous environment. That's the realm of Elemental Manipulations. |
I said those things because I think they are just as obsurd as using Invisibility to see through walls or doors or into cars. Illusions are just what ever the mage thinks is there. If he casts an illusion like invisisbility on a door then fine no one can see the door, but the other side of the door would be just what ever the mage thinks or want to be there. The only usfull thing I can see with that is you have the guards pull a Wily E. Coyote and run head long into the door thinking the are chasing you down the hall.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| Again, illusions can't directly harm anyone. Therfore, if Indirect Illusions do indeed manipulate energy, the implication is that they cannot do so with sufficent finesse to create lasers or otherwise create a hazardous environment. That's the realm of Elemental Manipulations. |
But you could create a Physical Illusion of a mirror that reflects a bright beam of sunlight at a vampire? Do you think you could use a Physical Illusion spell to create light (energy) in a dark area with phosphorous paint, and when you stop sustaining the spell the phosphorous would glow?
I still do not believe you could use an Illusion spell, Physical or not, to manipulate energy of any kind. This includes making fotons reflect off the Illusion.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| It didnt *settle* the argument then, just as it wont now... but, its something to ponder at least as the closest thing to an official ruling. |
Thanks for the info, Jason. I'll have to print that and save it in my records. Of course, I'll have to use it with the caveat that there's nothing to prove that Rob really said it, and that it hasn't appeared in any official sourcebook or errata, but still, it's interesting
.
If you doubt whether or not he said it, you could always ask him yourself. You can contact him at info@shadowrunrpg.com. He is usually pretty quick about replying.
People get confused when all this "Physical" stuff gets thrown around.
The answer is no. You are physically bending light and creating an image, in no way does that make your images take on the physical properties of their appearance.
Illusionary wood doesn't float by itself.
Illusionary metal is not magnetic.
Illusionary Ice is not cold by itself.
Illusionary mirrors don't reflect light by themselves.
Illusionary torches don't give off real light.
Making an illusion of the door being glass does not reveal what's on the other side.
If the mage could see what the mirror was supposed to reflect, he could make his illusion appear to be reflecting the image, but in the end, he would be controlling the image, it would not be an actual reflection.
Likewise if a mage could see in the dark, he could make illusionary light reveal the room to his friends, but only because he's using the illusion to show them what he is seeing.
Sunday
The answer is no. You are physically bending light and creating an image, in no way does that make your images take on the physical properties of their appearance.
Illusionary wood doesn't float by itself.
Illusionary metal is not magnetic.
Illusionary Ice is not cold by itself.
Illusionary mirrors don't reflect light by themselves.
Illusionary torches don't give off real light.
Making an illusion of the door being glass does not reveal what's on the other side.
If the mage could see what the mirror was supposed to reflect, he could make his illusion appear to be reflecting the image, but in the end, he would be controlling the image, it would not be an actual reflection.
Likewise if a mage could see in the dark, he could make illusionary light reveal the room to his friends, but only because he's using the illusion to show them what he is seeing.
Sunday
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| I'm still not following. If I'm casting an illusion on a door, then I'm casting the spell on a 1" x 36" x 72" area, no? As long as the door is smaller than (Magic) meters in diameter, why wouldn't I be able to make it invisible? |
Because the rules do say so?
The conevntional invisibility spells in SR are single target spells (or does your MitS list an (A) for area effect?). According to spell definition of illusion spells you can cast illusions around a person (=single target) or over an area (=area effect). So unless a door suddenly doesn't become a person or the invisibilty spell doesn't turn into an area spell, you cannot cast that spell at a door. You have to design a new (area) spell. And then you'd have the problem that
a) the common door is smaller than the area of effect for most magicians and even good ones do not have enough dice to assign and then hold back in order to reduce size of the spell's area of effect.
b) Anything on the area would become invisible, but not the area itself.
And as far as Rob's answer goes ... *sigh* ... I don't like certain aspects of his FAQ because they cannot be backed by the rules as written and I guess he'd have a hard time backing up this answer too ...
A physical illusion creates *actual sensory input* of images, not the images themselves. Otherwise, what would be the point of having a resistance roll for Improved Invisibility, if you still got the -8 TN penalty even if you resisted? But that's not how it works. If you get more successes with your Intelligence test, the spell doesn't affect you at all.
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