Nothing really.

Every concept has some sorts of inherent limitations - But some a lot more than others. My issue is that it seems to me that the classic Street Samurai, who wants to define his capabilites on how much of himself is cyberware(A remarkably common thing, I've yet to see a group without one. Note that I don't neccessairily mean a honorable street samurai like the one straight out of the book when I say "Street samurai") he can shove in his body, gets shafted more than is neccessary at the high end. It can also be a touch shafty in that the flavor demands they seek out the holy grail/deltaware clinic, in spite of everyone else not needing to do anything along those lines(When was the last time you had a GM say "Sorry Rigger man, but I think vehicle facilitys are uber-rare. It's going to take you several months game time to find one." ?)

Part of why SR lays out so many potential roles(Rigger, decker, sammy, face, shaman, etc) is that everyone doesn't have fun with the same things or think the same ideas are cool. So RPGs take the shotgun approach - They throw tons of classes at you and hope one of them strikes a chord in you. My belief is that as many potential concepts as possible should be viable at any level, within reason. Forcing someones concept down a certain pah should be avoided, but it happens.

One type of limitation that has always rubbed me the wrong way in any system has been characters whose usefulness is only at the low or mid 'levels' or whatever passes for it. For example, in 2nd edition D&D, the fighter class was pretty much just a punishment for not rolling up better stats. Viable for a while, but eventually acquires Teh Suk. I've issues with the otaku too and their losing their powers based on time passing, but they've got some serious mechanical suck going on too.

I'd expound more and make this post flow better, more intelligible, but I've been trying to work my way through The Trial by Franz Kafka. I just can't focus on this book for a long period of time. I managed to read Rama II from start to finish on Saturday, so my attention span isn't going down.

Limitations are purely a matter of attitude.

Mages could be quite happy never initiating.
Samurai could be quite happy never adding another piece of 'ware.

Magic versus cyber is a long, long debate and really falls to a matter of opinion (in my opinion).

Skill levels and equipment levels tend to be relative -- as one escalates, so does the other. As characters acquire karma and raise skills, they can either build or buy new and better gear.

In and out of play is a matter of the player's functions -- I've known some players who hustled and bustled during downtime between runs while other players sat around baking cookies (I drek you not.)

-Siege

If I ever get REALLY bored, I'll calculate out exactly how much nuyen it would cost to get a character completely maxed out on delta.

Anyways, I actually participated in a game where the idea of maxing out on delta was a real possibility. The game was very non-standard though. The GM had come up with a 'Prestige' system to augment the Karma system. The idea was, we were working for a delta-equipped group. If you wanted cyberware, you had to spend an amount of prestige equal to Essence(Or 1, whichever is greater)*Availability. Said cyberware all came as Delta, so the nuyen didn't matter at all. Adepts could initiate with this Prestige system AND he allowed them to directly buy power points without initiating, so Adepts were heavily favored. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what I was itching for, something which is normally limited solely by cost - Skillwires.

The game was started as a backlash against excessive planning. It was very action oriented and quite therapeutic after spending many games creeping around and sometimes spending entire sessions planning things out. Also, taking on entire lynch mobs of heavily-armed Humanis Policlub thugs is extremely fun. The other fun part was the GM describing the deaths of the enemies in ways that put many animes to shame. Heads getting blown off and ricocheting off of another enemy, organs being removed by bullets, great fun all around. But I digress.

Maxing out on deltaware is a best-case scenario for topping out. To top out on it, you'd most likely need to be running under some form of karma for cash, actively scavange every single piece of equipment they can get, do things on the side like program new programs, and it be a heavy-nuyen game besides.

In practice, PC's are unlikely to get delta period for flavor reasons(IE GM says "Delta is supposed to be RARE you know"). Most cyber-oriened Samurai will hit their cyber maximum with betaware. They'll probably first convert their high-essence items(Wired reflexes, limbs, bone lacing, dermal sheaths, etc) to Beta, install a couple more alpha trinkets they couldn't fit in before, upgrade some of their cheaper toys(Datajacks and such), and most likely will leave the low-essence high-price items(For instance, if they happen to have branched out and gotten a Cranial Remote Control Deck) for last.

I favor the karma solution I mentioned before. Just spend some karma, maybe say you spend some time in meditation or something mundane like that, and you get some Essence back. The usefulness of higher-grade cyberware would go down substantially, if not downright pointless from a Shadowrunner point of view.

Thread, I declare thee DEAD!

Yes and no. Some limitations are a function of PC direction-choices, such as the skill-based v. nuyen-based distinctions we were arguing over. Some limitations are a function of PC practical limit-choices, such as how far to take initiation or whether another piece of 'ware (this side of the Essence limit) would be "worth it".

But some limitations (such as Essence) are a function of the structure of the critter itself. (Since you bring up magic v. cyber, it's worth noting that the Magic rating used to be one of those absolute limits, before initiation was introduced.)

To argue toward restoration of Essence on the sole basis of Essence being the only thing felt to be limiting the PC is to reduce all possibilities, all choices, to one: why should Essence be the sole absolute limiter? Why shouldn't Essence loss be as mutable as all other things?

Agreed, in the general and the average - but some of the responses in this thread suggest that at least some players see their PCs' single relevant limit as Essence: the goal of the game is always fun, and it's no fun if you have to have any kind of absolute limit. Automatic possibility of restoration of Essence argues generally toward no absolute limits, of any kind: even if you initially choose to define your PC by 'ware limits, there will always remain the possibility of removal and of regeneration, and of starting over again, fresh.

How ironic: I've got a quest, and I'm the one arguing the reasons why, on a generic "what's okay for the PC is okay for the NPC" basis, its goal shouldn't be allowed. Maybe that's why I'd built in the caveats from its beginnings - instinctual, but arguing this out is giving the instinct a structure of reason.

I'd believe it. I've seen some strange variants of what constitutes in-game myself. (Although it's always useful, on a crowded bus, to make sure you remember that you are on a crowded bus before GMing another PC through a small one-on-one segment involving a high-pitched ally which calls him "Mom".)

Repeat three times while stirring in eye of newt, and maybe you will make it true

Essence loss can be relative -- in canon mechanic, by variable cyberware grades and if you use the optional surgery rules, a character's Essence loss can be even further reduced.

In this regard, it is indeed mutable. Although by no means a free ride -- characters still pay nuyen, time and lose some degree of Essence.

Mages and karma are similar -- Initiation becomes harder and harder, to the point it no longer becomes feasible when faced with other possible expenditures of karma present themselves.

The argument that Essence is a limitation is correct -- it is an established limitation to the game universe.

My contention that Essence as a Limitation is only true if you insist on trying to cram cyber on top of cyber on top of cyber and go the gearhead route.

Even with an unlimited nuyen balance and access to the best, cutting edge technology, at some point you will hit a point where you cannot go. Unless the GM decides to introduce another grade of cyberware for giggles.

Upon re-reading your post, you draw a parallel between a mage's Initation to raise the character's Magic Rating and the inability of the Samurai to do the same.

Frankly, that's the price of choosing a samurai (or similarly chromed) character. If you opt for metal, you get certain returns, but you also get certain drawbacks -- to my mind, a tangible ceiling of fixed Essence is one of them.

As for players who want to expand Essence to cram more 'ware, I would instinctively brand them munchkins and power-mongers. In retrospect, that assessment is a little harsh, but similar arguments have been made on the same basis for mages who want "Dragon-Slave!" as a spell or gun bunnies that seriously want to know why they can't carry the panther Assault Cannon slung in a backpack while shopping downtown.

Ok, looking for aspirin now...my headache is threatening to crawl out of an eyeball and start making new topic threads.

-Siege

I'm not entirely sure what the question here is, so I'm singling this part out and answering the rest in my usual excessively verbose amount of detail.

When I say 'dermal sheath', what I really mean to say 'Only the first level of the dermal sheath'. .7 Essence and 24,000 gets you +2 body and +1 impact. The second level costs another .7 Essence and 36,000...and you get +1 body. That's it. The 3rd level costs another .7 essence, 60,000 and grants you +1 body, +1 impact. The levels past the first are a case of severely diminishing returns. But the first level is a very good deal for someone looking to boost their body some. Level 3 is reserved for high-body monstrositys.


Wired vs Boosted vs(kinda) Synaptic

Note that for the rest of this post, just assume we're talking about a hypothetical character with 6 int/6 dex.

Wired is the best choice in my eyes for your basic Street Samurai. More specifically, Wired 2 is the best Essence:Effectiveness in my mind. You pay 3 Essence and 165,000 and get +2d6 init and +4 reaction. It also keeps you Bio free for things other than Synaptic, such as Reflex Recorders, Damage Compensators, Trauma Dampers, and other Street Samurai favorites. Finally, reaction tests are good to make. Wired is also best for fringe cases involving people building their reaction up to the point that it's impossible for them NOT to get 4 actions per turn. Definitely not the most cost effective though - That honor falls to the next one.

Boosted 3 is the best for the merc on a budget. It's almost as good as Wired 2 at half the cost(I'm assuming every Sammy buys a reflex trigger) and .2 less Essence. For a B-resources Sammy, this is probably the best choice. I feel the +2 reaction from Wired is worth the .2 Essence more. I'm a fan of the "Get a reasonably high init and prioritize any enemy that goes before you" school of thought. While paying 75,000 for 2 more reaction may seem like a bad deal, it's actually cheaper than most of the other options for raising reaction.

Boosted3/Synaptic2 is statistically the strongest of the 3 most common options, averaging in at 25.5 init. It is also the most expensive, clocking in at 290K. Depending on how strict a GM is, this might be outlawed on the grounds that you need a beta-grade clinic to installed Cultured bioware. I'm yet to see anyone actually enforce that though. I don't like Synaptic much. I try to keep myself under 2.0 bioware and Synaptic is half the budget right there. There's so many good pieces of bioware and so little space I can use without getting screwed hard by penalties.

Can I substitute eye of newt for a pair of Mormons? I'm a little short the former, but have an amazing surplus of the latter.