okay, so I want to be able to have my players deal with ghouls WITHOUT cybereyes, and I'm wondering: 1) how does their dual nature impact their astral perception....can they just see the player's aura? 2) how do the smell and hearing compensate for blindness I figure they obviously can't shoot....so when the pack is ganging up on a character what happens to their unarmed combat?

Feral ghouls wouldn't have guns, but the ones that have retained their sanity have no problems firing guns. Sure, they don't see colors, but they can make out their targets just fine and know where to squeeze the trigger. Being dual-natured, they don't even get the -2 dice for physical actions while astrally perceiving.

Other heightened senses would probably help the ghouls track their prey, but I don't think they help much in combat.

So... being blind is no problem for any kind of combat for ghouls.

For basic combat I'd say sure, no problem - they can aim just as well as someone with normal sight, with no penalties or anything.

However, I'm not so sure they can as easily tell what kind of firearm someone has. I'm not sure some kinds of called shots involving technological targets might not be harder. Might they get a penalty of some sort against a drone? Astral perception might be as good as normal sight in general, but the specifics of what it is good at are completely different.

lol okay let me be more clear: dual natured Astral perception.....can they use it to see? (I guess they can't see drones right?)

now close combat (let's say they're feral ghouls)assuming they can't see astrally but with advanced hearing and smell do the suffer the full -6 to strike?

Physical objects without essence of their own show up as astral shadows on the Astral, or by Astral Perception. So think of it as looking at the world only in black-and-whites, whereas seeing people would be more than full color. Ghouls (and other Assensing persons) would be able to see drones and vehicles and doors just fine.

As to the other senses for ghouls, I always envisioned them as so much more tuned-up that they can function without sight altogether.

They can see them, but not fine details, like what model or how it's armed. It's the same problem as reading a book using astral perception. There is no emotional content to a drone, so you can only determine that it's drone due to it's movement and shape.

Jello: Here's the deal. Dual Natured means that all Ghouls are ALWAYS using astral perception. They cannot turn it off, just like you can't turn off your hearing. It's just another sense for them.

So, the effect that Dual Natured has on their Astral Perception is that they are always using it. Yes, they can see everyone's Auras, all the time. And yes, they can use it to see. That's how they don't run into things all the time. Being blind for a Ghoul does not hinder them in any way, other than that they cannot read written text. They should have no problem shooting a gun at all. In close combat, they should suffer NO PENALTIES as they can see their opponent just as well as anyone else can.

If it helps you to understand this concept, replace the term Astral Perception with "Astral Sight". In terms of combat, run a ghoul like anyone else.

I hope this helps. If anything is unclear, or you have other questions, i'll try to explain better.

And maybe even a bit better, as they wouldn't have any negative modifiers from darkness.

And could maybe read the opponents next attack in the way his aura flows?

And they are REALLY good at geeking the mage first.

Ghouls have one Main-Problem in Close Combat:
WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WILLINGLY ENTER CLOSE COMBAT WITH A GHOUL?
Just as nobody who has all their marbles together should ever go hand to hand with a Troll, without some serious advantages on his side.

Right, but well, that's why they sneak up on you. (Ghouls that is, not so much the Trolls with the sneaking )

did the fact that ghouls get shot on sight in about 99% of the world by about 99,9% of the general population - including the shadows - get changed somewhere?
At least with trolls most people KNOW that they are huge and big and strong and tough and mean and so . . but they usually don't try to eat you. and they are not contaigous.

It's a nice way to blow off some steam after a long night at the local alcohol establishment.

You just need to make sure there's somebody to bail you out before both your kidneys get eaten, and have plenty of antibiotics at hand unless you want to go on a permanent Atkins diet yourself.

"How can something so big, be that stealthy?!"

*snickers*
yeah, i still remember fondly the times where i had stealth(sneaking)5(7) plus artwinculation in my troll and the elf had exactly one die in stealth.
critical botch in the elf and critical success in the troll ^^ i actually managed to hide my troll in a more or less empty floor with just some false plants in there.
according to the dice rolls at least . .

The troll should have hidden behind the Elf...

Thanks chibu...that's what I figured .....just wanted to make sure....hehe my mage has really been falling back on making him char invisible... can't wait for him to try it on some ghouls.

And I'm not at all certain that they can't shoot. They can't use a red dot sight, but in theory they could use iron sights. (The physical object blocks or allows their view just like it does for normal vision) They can also use smartlinks, if the various parts are implanted.

They certainly can use things like flamethrowers, as they can perceive the physical object it's projecting and they are more or less area effect anyhow.

Don't forget that as a ghoul you're only cyber-eyes away from normal sight again too.

Ah, but don't you loose your magic point if you use them?

From the looks of it, yes, Ghouls are just as prone to losing magic as a result of essence loss from cyberware as anyone else. But they're also fully capable of buying up their magic score with Karma or BP. However, from the looks of it, if they did end up with magic 0, this would only cost them their Dual Naturedness.

And since Dual Nature for non-magicians is more a drawback, such a "loss" would actually be a "gain" under most circumstances ... particularly since all other "positive" critter powers a Ghoul has are the ones that he will retain even if his magic rating drops to zero.

Ork Ghoul Mystic Adept with Cyber-Eyes.
Kinda like the Elven shaman mystic adept pornomancer with high agility and charisma.

Thing is, i once figured out for myself that for living as a ghoul in a ghoul family, dual nature is essential for their social structure. So i actually... don't like the idea of letting go of astral sight.

And can non-magicians actually buy Magic?

The general rule of thumb seems to be that if you have a magic attribute, you can indeed raise it (Cyberzombies are an exception, others may be as well). It's getting a magic attribute in the first place that takes a little work.

Wow, wait a minute!

Wasn't Dual Natured a Negative Quality back in SR3?

Can a mundane Ghoul actually circumvent being an astral punchingball just by getting cybereyes?

By looking at the rules, I would say 'yes', but that reads more like an oversight.
Clarification please!

OK, asterally percieving the shadow of a wall, with a shadow of a door, with the shadow of a table in front of it, and the shadow of a drone on top of that. sounds like a bunch of blackness to me. I think this is where the hearing and smelling come into it.

Pretty much spot on there.
And ghouls don't seem to suffer mcuh if they lose their magic.

Also, for astral perception being a big part of a ghouls social life?
Most ghouls are feral anyway. And if you are NOT feral and suddenly have to deal with Astral perception?
You think you are going crazy. The usual Awakening takes weeks to months. You get this in some days?
Try and drug it out(with essence loss from drugs, this can actually work). Or, because your eyes are blind,
get new ones and discover, much to your relief, that the colours have gone away again.

I understand why you think being Dual Natured is a drawback. That said, I think being dual natured is cool and really useful.

They also cannot view any video display, such as trideo screens or visual AR displays, nor can they see laser sights, flashlights, warning lights, or a number of other things we sighted people take for granted.

As for cybereyes on ghouls, check this out from page 108 of Runner's Companion: Neither replacement nor sensory bypass are available for neurological-based Reduced (Sense) impairments (including those resulting from SURGE or HMHVV-induced transformations).

While this is in the section on Qualities, the final line strongly implies that this would apply to Ghouls too.

Fair. I definitely did underestimate the amount of things they wouldn't be able to see. Thanks for pointing it out.

Hmmm do the rules say that magic can be increased for non-magicians? That ability was reserved for those with the magic-qualitys in my eyes and we always handled it that way.


You know there are born ghouls - feral or not - and that there are some which don't succumb to madness?
I mean, hey frickin bees "talk" with a combination of complex "dances", ants give off pheromones to signal that they are exicted about a new food source and a dog/wolf barks to alert his pack about danger, plus smell.
I just thought "Well, those guys are born without regular sight, but with enhanced hearing, smell and the ability to perceive the auras of their rout, so if there aren't any social implications there with born ghouls i don't know either." Ghouls seem to me like pack hunters and in most fluff are written as quite social instead of lone stalker. Implies a quite social "animal" to me that hunts in packs, so it would make sense that they use the astral information of their prey and their hordemates to make more efficient hunters.
Loosing the ability to perceive your favoured prey and interact properly with your kin... i can imagine that an astrally blind ghoul would be the same as a blind person for us.

This is pretty important for other magical creatures, as their innate abilities are based on their magic attribute. They can get better in using their innate abilities without being magicians.

Ah, thank you for the providing. Then it's fine by me.

Remember that if a ghoul has not raised Magic, even a rating 1 background count will strip away his powers - which, IIRC, includes Dual Nature (but not the Enhanced Senses or Natural Weapons).

Which conflicts with page 80 of Runner's Companion: "Ghoul characters can overcome their reduced senses by taking Cybereyes." I think Ghouls are a special case in that their blindness is not neurological but physical - they just have nasty cataracts.

Yeah, my group stumbled upon that line before. We agreed that the Reduced Sense Note does not make sense and ignored it.

A dragon?

Actually there's no contradiction at all and HappyDaze missed an important part about said note on Reduced (Sense): The note refers to the Negative Quality of the same name that actually grants building points and not the Weaknesses certain species have at no extra BP cost / gain. Just like all "Critters" the infected characters receive their Weaknesses (though identical in name to certain negative qualities) at 0 BP and their Weaknesses are in general not even removable via Karma (Each Infected character has been transformed by a species of the HMHVV retroviruses, and gains certain paranormal powers (Powers, p.236, SR4), weaknesses (Weaknesses, p.290, SR4), appearances, and appetites. The following qualities are permanent and cannot be bought off later with Karma, nor corrected through gene therapy or restoration.) - unless of course there's an explicit exception. And you quoted that exception already

I didn't miss it. Reread what I wrote, paying attention to the last line of that post.

And, yes, I am aware of the ghouls exception noted on page 80 - I was just pointing out that the page 108 quote was in conflict with it.

Why would he?
Also, can Dragons become infected? O.o

Gods, I hope not!

almost an answer

I'm not quite convinced there, since you're still using the wrong context



Rereading still brings me to this: While this is in the section on Qualities, the final line strongly implies that this would apply to Ghouls too.

Basis for your implication is a quote from something that refers to Qualities that grant BP / Karma instead of innate Weaknesses that do not grant BP or Karma
And ofc, the final line not only implies but outright says that it also applies to Ghouls, since they sure as hell have reduced senses caused by HMHVV. The consequence of said sentence however is that as long as a Ghoul character does suffer from neurologically induced reduced senses as per "Reduced (Sense)" Quality in addition of his natural Weakness - e.g. by taking that particular aspect of the Negative Quality in addition to his normal Weakness - his reduced senses are caused only by the cataracts and thus he is not subject to the ruling that says that he cannot circumvent the problem with cyber replacement.

The Ghoul description even explictly states the (non-neurological) cause of the Ghoul's reduced senses



And this note actually is still not in conflict with said information on p. 80, since the Ghoul character according to the base discription gets a weakness (that is the equivalent of the 10 BP negative quality) without neurological cause: while the eyes blind under white cataracts, his senses of hearing and smell become hyperactive, thus he can only become subject of the note that you found if the player additionally adds the Negative Quality that shares the name with the already present weakness by explicitly making the cause of his reduced senses (also) a neurological problem. And in that case he would or should also get the 5 BP that taking this aspect of the Negative Quality normally grants.

The only implication that actually holds true coming from the note on the quality is: By implication there are cases where HMHVV causes neurologically reduced senses. But since none of the actual infected PCs or NPCs have that as a general discription, that information is more or less "fluff".

Why? Don't know.
But the dragon wouldn't lose.

I don't really care about convincing you. You want an argument, ad I don't really care about giving you one. FWIW, your attempt is a bunch of nebulously worded crap that tries to make much more of this than it really is. Get over it.

And I thought that part of a debate is convincing the opposing faction of one's own position ~man have my teachers failed me~



I'm not really into having an argument in terms of "fight", I was rather inclined of informing you that your "implication" was and still is based on a false assumption and in disregard of plainly written words.



"Nebulously worded crap"? ~laugh~
It's simply applied logic: The sentence you quoted refers to neurologically caused reduced senses as per second bigger paragraph within the "Reduced (Sense) Quality and disallows the removal of the Reduced Senses via cyberware, be the reason of the neurological cause a genetic defect, SURGE or an HMHVV infection. It simply is not an "implication" that this rule also holds true for Ghouls, it's a plain and clearly written rule right there. However, in order to actually apply for a Ghoul (or any other character) said character must have a neurological cause for his reduced sense. And that's where Ghouls without that extra Negative Quality get off the hook: Their reduced senses explicitly are not due to neurological cause but due to simple white cataracts which means their eye lense turns white / gray.



Given the fact that you're the one who starts to get agressive by using words like "nebulously worded crap" and also suggest that I'm making much more of this than it is, but obviously cannot refute what I have written concerning the need of a neurological cause for the note to take its effect, I tend to think that you're the one who should get over the fact that you have misinterpreted something and been told about it. ~shrugs~

TLDR: There still is no contradiction in the rules on p. 80 and p. 108 and Ghouls by default do not suffer from a neurologically induced form of reduced senses despite their reduced senses being connected to an HMHVV infection, so they can aleviate their reduced senses with cyber replacement eyes.

Who said I was here to debate anything? That would imply that I care what you have to say, which I really don't. OK, perhaps a little, so...

What I was referring to was the implication that HMHVV-related (and SURGE-related) reduced senses are neurological by default. That was how I had read that sentence although it's certainly not the only way to read it.


I've discovered that the use of 'applied logic' - at least as that phrase is used on the internet - is often a waste of too much thought. If you have to apply more thought on the interpretation of a game rule than the writers/designers likely put into it, then I consider is pointless. Besides, I'm much more of a Dr. McCoy than a Spock - I can think logically, but that's hardly the sole deciding factor in anything I do.

I thought that there was still intelligence on the internet.

I guess not.

As soon as you say "the rules work this way" you've presented an argument for debate, provided someone else thinks that no, that's not how the rules work.

I never said that "the rules work this way" - I just noted a passage from the book that seemed to conflict with the idea of ghouls with cybereyes. From there it's up to GMs to decide what they like. Note use of "check this out" and "implies" and the fact that I never said anyone was right or wrong.