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Heath Robinson
As a purely theoretical optimisation test I've been trying to make the most obviously ridiculous Medic possible. I've got quite a few abusive elements in there already but I'm only on 29 First Aid dice. The break down is 10 (Logic) + 11 (Skill) + 6 (Medkit) + 1 (Encephalon 1) + 1 (PuSHeD) = 29

Given that my healing cap is 10 this is rather disappointing. Can Dumpshock help?

EDIT:
Updated build to latest version

EDIT2:
Updated to account for Autosofts granting bonus dice to "trained medtechs" when loaded into Medkits and Autodocs

EDIT3:
Replaced a few adept powers

EDIT4:
Trance doesn't work

[ Spoiler ]
Tiger Eyes
Machine sprite using Diagnostics on medkit. With such a high skill, it can potentially add up to your skill in extra dice to the test (you'd need a really high rating sprite, though).

Specialization in First Aid: Combat Wounds.
Muspellsheimr
Skill augmented maximum is 10, not 11.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ May 26 2009, 05:06 PM) *
Machine sprite using Diagnostics on medkit. With such a high skill, it can potentially add up to your skill in extra dice to the test (you'd need a really high rating sprite, though).

Specialization in First Aid: Combat Wounds.

Good idea. Unfortunately this character won't ever see play and I don't think I can call that an integral part of the character. For a start, any GM would nix a character that can put the Troll Tank back together after said Troll Tank gets hit by an Anti-Tank missile.


One of the criticisms levelled at the Pornomancer is that they only achieve their peak DP in one area. I'd like to be able to patch people taking K10 back together after they come down off it, as well as the Anti-Tank missile thing. Preferably subsequently.

QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 26 2009, 05:20 PM) *
Skill augmented maximum is 10, not 11.

Isn't the rule Skill Rating * 1.5? SR4 rounding default is up from what I remember.
Ryu
The limit is not rounded, as it does not have to be. "Not higher than 10.5" is essentially the same as "not higher than 10".
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 26 2009, 09:32 AM) *
Isn't the rule Skill Rating * 1.5? SR4 rounding default is up from what I remember.

Augmented maximums round down. Everything else (that I am aware of) rounds in the players favor.
DireRadiant
Psyche?
Overdrive, Trance.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ May 26 2009, 07:24 PM) *
Psyche?
Overdrive, Trance.

Can't use Psyche - this character is at their Augmented Logic max.
Overdrive they can use, but the 8S is pretty bad if they pick up some stun from elsewhere.
Can't use Trance - that causes paralysis, and you need to be able to get to your patient.

Accounting for my mistakes about the Augmented max cap calculations the pool is now 10 (Logic) + 10 (Skill) + 6 (Medkit) + 1 (Encephalon 1) + 1 (PuSHeD) = 28. This is terrible. To reliably hit this character's healing cap, accounting for the Threshold of 2 and healing a fractional Essence Sam in Combat I need 42 dice. It doesn't look like there are 14 dice of extra Logic skill bonuses available.

Depending on rulings, this character could get either 0, 4, or about 8 dice from having a gaggle of Drones assisting them. Not including that in the above calculation, pending comments. I hate to rely on Drones, because they're prone to getting shot and aren't stealthy in the least, and because it's a cheap "optimisation" technique.

Supporting skills of Medicine and Cybertechnology have 10 (Logic) + 4 (Medicine) + 1 (Encephalon 1) + 1 (PuSHeD) = 16 and 10 (Logic) + 3 (Cybertechnology) + 1 (Encephalon 1) + 1 (PuSHeD) = 15 respectively. Mostly these are thanks to the extra points freed up from dropping magic off the hard cap. They also have something in the region of 25 BP still left, and .9 essence available.

Character follows (since more has changed than just lowering Improved First Aid and adding another Power in its place).
[ Spoiler ]
DireRadiant
Tacsoft bonus?
Martin Silenus
With 28 dice you're healing 9 boxes on average and you cap out at 10 with this build. Isn't that enough for most needs, especially with a magical healing chaser? With edge to reroll failures, you're going to get 13 net hits, on average, which is probably good enough to reliably cap out when you need to reliably cap out.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ May 26 2009, 08:37 PM) *
Tacsoft bonus?

Iffy. They'd only be able to gain a single die off it with my gaggle of Drones until I boost their Sensor to 6 (for a mere 4 800) and get the character a SimRig and Ultrasound Sensor. It's still a very expensive way to get those dice, and entirely subject to GM approval, which means I'm honouor bound not to include it in my calculations (for the same reason I'm not claiming the 8 teamwork dice from their Dronegaggle right now).

QUOTE (Martin Silenus @ May 26 2009, 10:42 PM) *
With 28 dice you're healing 9 boxes on average and you cap out at 10 with this build. Isn't that enough for most needs, especially with a magical healing chaser? With edge to reroll failures, you're going to get 13 net hits, on average, which is probably good enough to reliably cap out when you need to reliably cap out.

You're forgetting about the Threshold of 2. That's only 7 measly boxes. That's not even Nitro. The point of theoretical optimisation is to paint a doom'n'gloom picture of a world where the Tank Trolls are immune to even being shot with the Anti-Tank missiles that form their only current foil. Reliably.

Plus, I'd rather use those Edge points for dodging bullets.

Edit: TIME TRAVEL HAX! I HAVE CONTROL OVER REALITY! Ahem.. forgot to take medication.

QUOTE (Night Jackal @ May 26 2009, 11:02 PM) *
Well you could add a control rig and a Evo Orderly with med kit and go VR hot sim for addition 2 dice on the control device action

First Aid isn't a vehicle skill, and "Applying medical care remotely through medkit/autodoc –2" would apply to that. I could do it with a Manservant 3 in order to escape that clause through not being an Autodoc, but it's only worth it once I can't get 2 extra dice off that Manservant from Teamwork. If I can't use Manservants for Teamwork, then I have a spare Manservant for it.
Night Jackal
Well you could add a control rig and a Evo Orderly with med kit and go VR hot sim for addition 2 dice on the control device action
Jaid
QUOTE (Night Jackal @ May 26 2009, 05:02 PM) *
Well you could add a control rig and a Evo Orderly with med kit and go VR hot sim for addition 2 dice on the control device action

evo orderly wouldn't be good. you'd need something with a valkyrie, but which is also not an autodoc (which, for some unfathomable reason, explicitly suffers a -2 mod according to augmentation for remote operation and does not allow use of medical skills as vehicle skills according to the same source).

so yeah, i'd say your actual best bet is probably a crazy technomancer doctor using remote-controlled drones and a massively boosted command CF.

if you start at resonance 6, you lose 1 essence for the genemods (no need for control rig or cerebral booster, btw).

so you use the command CF at 5, boost it to 10 with threading, boost it by 5 more with a registered sprite, pick up codeslinger in control device, and add in hotsim bonus... that's 19 + skill (presumably 7) for 26 dice + the genemods, total 28. make the node your home ground for another +2 dice, and you've got 30.

alternately, drop the genemods, and you can keep resonance 6 and command CF at 6, plus you can thread up to 6 potentially (it's just a matter of patience) plus you could always register a higher-rating sprite, plus you can throw in the diagnostics power for good measure (and compile/register the sprite as well as threading the CF in your home node of the medical drone, for good measure). sadly, no paragons give a bonus of any sort to using the command CF, but it would be plausible imo wink.gif

Malachi
So after this thread has reached its fruition are we going to have people complaining about the "medicmancer" break in SR4?
Red-ROM
we'll just have more people going for the dice cap option in SR4A (which I believe puts you at 20)
Stahlseele
Sorry, but healing damage is not really up there on the OMGWTFBROKEN! Scale for me O.o
At least, if you don't heal Drain Damage with that on yourself . .
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 26 2009, 07:14 PM) *
Sorry, but healing damage is not really up there on the OMGWTFBROKEN! Scale for me O.o
At least, if you don't heal Drain Damage with that on yourself . .


I'm on the fence on this one. I think its cool you can get back in the game easily. But, combined with a spell slinging healer we have basically eliminated damage as a problem outside of the immediate fight. It feels very D&Dish to me, after the fight the cleric goes to work and everyone is full health and ready to move on.

I wouldn't mind seeing some long term injuries showing up in the game. Maybe increase the threshold by 1 for each level of wound penalty the target has. Add something similar for the heal spell and maybe people with 10 boxes of damage aren't right as rain after a couple minutes with a medkit and a heal spell.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
Augmented maximums round down. Everything else (that I am aware of) rounds in the players favor.

Everything rounds up! is a houserule that I use and encourage. It avoids having to remember what rounds up and what rounds down.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 26 2009, 01:27 PM) *
I've got quite a few abusive elements in there already (like the ability to heal wounds twice)

How do you pull that of?
Kainblueriver
My impression is that you can not apply both first aid and magical healing to the same set of wounds (it is stated on pg 242 of the main core).
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Kainblueriver @ May 26 2009, 11:59 PM) *
My impression is that you can not apply both first aid and magical healing to the same set of wounds (it is stated on pg 242 of the main core).


There is an order of operations, you can't magically heal then use first aid. But you can use first aid and then magically heal.

Jhaiisiin
Actually it says you can't use First Aid if magical healing has already been applied to that set of wounds. The other way around is not forbidden though.

EDIT: Damnit, SK beat me to it.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ May 27 2009, 12:06 AM) *
Actually it says you can't use First Aid if magical healing has already been applied to that set of wounds. The other way around is not forbidden though.

EDIT: Damnit, SK beat me to it.


Its almost like I ninjaed it. Shinobi Killfist style.
Dragnar
I think that's the first time I've heard a dicepool of 29 being described as "rather disappointing".
I love dumpshock. biggrin.gif
The Jake
Not to wear my "Asshole DM" hat but couldn't this be deliberate to avoid players laughing Death straight in the face?

- J.
tsuyoshikentsu
Order of... oh, that's cute.

I'm actually seeing an "Optimized Party" coming together. Medicmancer, Pornomancer (who throws a little extra out to get a healing spell), Climber troll for infiltration, Armor Troll for tanking, and... hm. This team needs a heavy and a hacker. Perhaps something to do with Agent Smith...?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 26 2009, 04:53 PM) *
Dronegaggle


I am stealing this word.
Dakka Dakka
So by healing twice you only mean using first aid and empathic healing, right? That's neither new nor abusive. I was under the impression that you found a way to use either technique twice on any set of injuries.
tsuyoshikentsu
Actually, you could sort of heal a set of woundsfour times: first aid, magical heal, empathic healing, first aid yourself, magically heal yourself.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 27 2009, 07:18 AM) *
So by healing twice you only mean using first aid and empathic healing, right? That's neither new nor abusive. I was under the impression that you found a way to use either technique twice on any set of injuries.

First Aid (Wounded) -> Empathic Healing/Pain Relief -> First Aid (Themself)

I don't consider Empathic Healing actual Healing since it conserves damage. It's just useful for moving damage away from the fractional Essence sam. The Medic is meant to be a horrible prospect by themselves, so being able to rely on Heal shouldn't be part of the normal operations. It's a nice bonus, but The Medic needs to put the Troll Tank or Binky back together after they take an AT Missile to the face, by themselves.

If we allow for both Trained Assistants, Teamwork, and a PMV then The Medic can grab another 20 dice, taking the DP for First Aid to 48. Teamwork group being Manservant 3s with Sensor 6, Tacnet, First Aid autosofts contributing an average of 3 dice each for 15 dice total. Trained Assistants are more of the same. The Medic Cold Sim rigs another Manservant and pops Trance beforehand via an Autoinjector. 15 + 3 + 2 = 20 dice. First Aid is not a Matrix Skill Test. With the existing 28 dice this gives a total of 48 and gives sufficient margin on my earlier limit that it will reliably hit the cap.


My criticism of using a Technomancer is that they can only achieve Command Stratospheric for a few CTs. They can't have the 'ware for boosting Logic linked skills because doing so drops their CFs. They need to register sprites for that kind of thing. Whilst Technos may be the greatest Riggers on the face of the planet, this isn't a rigging challenge.


I'll have a new copy of the sheet up later today. Got work.
Mx
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 26 2009, 10:11 PM) *
Can't use Psyche - this character is at their Augmented Logic max.

Then get genetic optimization for logic.
tsuyoshikentsu
Also drop Slow Healer for Impaired Attribute (anything you don't intend to cap, like STR or something.) Slow Healer is a bad plan when you're using Empathic Healing and there are better alternatives.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Mäx @ May 27 2009, 12:56 PM) *
Then get genetic optimization for logic.

Forgot about that. All is good under the sun.

QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ May 27 2009, 06:16 PM) *
Also drop Slow Healer for Impaired Attribute (anything you don't intend to cap, like STR or something.) Slow Healer is a bad plan when you're using Empathic Healing and there are better alternatives.

I don't even list the SURGE qualities on the sheet I've got laid out for this. So, sure.


Bah, forgot to apply the new teamwork rule from the Anniversary errata. Down 5 dice on the high end, and down a Manservant. Still, the Manservants are dodgy since there's wiggle room to exclude them as a source of bonus dice without real issues. I'm not going to consider them a proper DP source, but I'm going to do the calculations for their inclusion out of interest.

With some stat rearrangements after purchasing Genetic Optimisation (Logic) and accounting for Psyche the DP is now 30, +2 for Specialisation. If you're willing to risk being knocked out from extra stun, then you can add some Overdrive for an extra dice. With the Dronegaggle and Psyche the DP is at 48, 50 for Specialisation.

[ Spoiler ]
Sma
Neocortical Nanites will give you another 3 dice on top of everything. If you find with a rigged variant the Control Rig Boosters can add another 3 dice.
tsuyoshikentsu
Neocortical's a good idea, but it needs a nanohive. You actually don't have quite enough Essence to get a nanohive straight, but fortunately it's only Capacity 2. It'll pop right into a synthetic cyberhand (or foot, whatever).
Jaid
QUOTE (Sma @ May 27 2009, 02:56 PM) *
Neocortical Nanites will give you another 3 dice on top of everything. If you find with a rigged variant the Control Rig Boosters can add another 3 dice.

control rig boosters baugment the skill. his skill is already *at* the augmented max. as such, control rig boosters won't do the trick.
Espiritu
Don't laugh at death... Murphy's Law is #1 on his speed-dial.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Espiritu @ Dec 31 2009, 06:12 PM) *
Don't laugh at death... Murphy's Law is #1 on his speed-dial.


No, that's Albert. Murphy is #2.
Makki
i throw in some karma for Attunement (Medkit)
Ascalaphus
So what was the idea behind the autosoft in the begiinning? For the drones?
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Page 253 @ Anniversary BBB Printing)
If a trained medtech uses a medkit/autodoc when healing a character, she receives a dice pool modifier equal to the devices First Aid or Medicine autosoft rating.


Oft-overlooked.
Mongoose
Nah, death is still a real threat even with super-healing. If you've gotten to where you NEED 9 boxes of first aid healing, you probably were in a situation where taking another 9 boxes was pretty likely. Nobody goes into overflow and then laughs.

The main difference is, getting 9 boxes of first aid lets you go out and do it again an hour or two later...

If you want more dice, I think a Technomancer could help you out by throwing a sprite into your medkit. Probably best not to make your healer a TM just for that purpose, but maybe halving one as a high level contact, for when you really need it, would make sense. Ring them up on your link, they bob over through the 'trix and lend a helping digital hand...
dirkformica
Can Analyze Device help this experiment? Also, I know there's some cyberware involved, but could a Pixie's +1 logic or a Nosferatu's +2 Logic help? Pixie Mystic Adept might be able to pull off some shenanigans.
Heath Robinson
In terms of add-ons from spellcasters and technomancers - those are not intergral to the character. They're external bonuses that I would not want to include due to unreliability. Tiger Eyes already mentioned Sprites in the very first response, and my answer then still holds.

QUOTE (dirkformica @ Jan 26 2010, 03:49 AM) *
Also, I know there's some cyberware involved, but could a Pixie's +1 logic or a Nosferatu's +2 Logic help? Pixie Mystic Adept might be able to pull off some shenanigans.

This build gets 1 dice from SURGE, 2 dice from Genetic Augmentations, and 1 dice from increased Augmented Maxima (using Psyche), for a total of 4 dice that can be lost. Pixies cannot take Geneware (it's not available in grades), losing out on 2 dice and 1 from lowered Augmented Maxima. They probably can't take SURGE, so they lose all 4 of those dice to gain that 1 die from Logic. Meanwhile, the Nosferatu can take SURGE, but Geneware kills them, so they lose 2 dice to gain 2 from Logic and their Augmented Maxima doesn't change.

Both of those options precludes the +3 to Logic and +1 DP on Logic-Linked Skills I gained from 'Ware, since you're only allowed to take up to Alphaware at CharGen. That means that the Pixie option is down 8 dice, and the Nosferatu is down a mere 4 (not counting things crowded out of the budget by the Nosferatu's extreme cost).
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