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Ok here we go.. OK we got a game running now. its a n00b training game.. and the character line up is..

Human Decker/wheel man- Me a GM
human Combat Decker -Friend a GM
Dwarf Demo Expert - N00b
Troll Stealth Vending Machine - N00b 2nd game
Razor Child - N00b 2nd game
Troll Sparwl Ganger- Green behind the ears, but gets the rules

Ok well after the game we had a descripentcy over Flechette ammo.. when somebody used shotgun shot to blast a baby ganger into paste.

Now.. here we go.. what the rules say.. is Flechette Ammo stages up damage when used on unarmored targets, but agianst armored targets teh fair less affective double the impact rating and use which is highter. Dermal armor negates the staging affect.

Now does this mean that if i use a T250 with a code of 10S with shot 10D if i shot some one sportin an armor vest with plate (4/3).. is it 10D with armor of 4/6 or 10S with armor of 4/6?

We know that what ever the DM says goes.. but i need to get some insite on this in my futre games!
The T250, using shotgun ammo (not slug), against an armored target, does 10S with the target getting the higher of the ballistic armor or double the impact armor. In your example, the 4/3 armor counts for a 6 point reduction in power, exactly as you suggest. Against an unarmored target its base damage is 10D.

Against a target with dermal armor use the Armored Target rule, even if it's not wearing any other armor.

Using Slug ammo, against any target, would be 10S with ballistic armor applying.
Crusher Bob
As a house rule alternate, leave the staged up power (only stage down vs trolls, dermal plating, etc) to make it an actual useful option of what to put in your shotgun.
JackWill, one other thing to remember is that shotgun ammo spreads as it moves through the air. This lowers the Target Number for hitting someone, lowers the power of the attack, and also lets one blast hit multiple targets. You've probably already seen this on p. 117 in the main book.

When I teach new players, I suggest they stay away from shotgun ammo till they've learned basic combat. The complexity of manual choke settings, cyberlinked choke settings, multiple targets, targets behind targets, staging up against some targets but not others, varying affect of armor, and the different affect of smartlink or laser make this very complex for a new player.
Ah, kind of off topic, but does anyone decrease the price, SI or availability of shot shells to represent the fact that they are far more common than flechette rounds would be?
I think given the setting slugs would as common, if not moreso than shot rounds.

Not so many people hunting, far more security, paranormal animals, and armored target uses.
Not to be rude, but I was talking about shot shells being more common than flechette rounds, as opposed to shot shells being more common than slugs. But I'll take that as a 'no' none the less.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Tziluthi)
does anyone decrease the price, SI or availability of shot shells to represent the fact that they are far more common than flechette rounds would be?

I was certain that was already in the rules, so I checked, and it isn't. So my answer would have to be yes. Shot rounds are the same price, same SI (1) and same Availability (varies) as slug rounds in my games.
shot rounds are flechette rounds. in SR, at any rate.
Yes, but discounting a sudden loss of shot-producing technology, I doubt shot-shells would get as expensive as 10 dollars per shell, even by 2063. So even though they count as flechettes for rules of damage, I would suggest that shot-shells would be less expensive than their high-tech, flechette counterparts. Thus my earlier question.

Thanks for your input, Austere.
oh, okay. i thought you were talking just about shotguns. jesus christ, that is stupid.
QUOTE (mfb @ Jan 18 2004, 07:01 AM)
shot rounds are flechette rounds. in SR, at any rate.

Not exactly. Flechette rounds have small, sharp metal fragments. Shot rounds have small, round metal pieces. Flechette rounds hit one target. Shot rounds spread out and may hit multiple targets. Smartgun links have full benefit when firing flechette rounds, and at most a bonus of -1 with shot rounds. Laser sights and smart goggles help when firing flechette rounds, but not with shot rounds.

However, you are correct in the limited sense that "To determine the damage done by shot rounds, apply the flechette ammunication rules to the Damage Code indicated by the weapon" (SR3 p. 117) and also that a shotgun damage code that been staged up with the flechette ammunication rules would be marked with an (f), as in 10D(f).
hum. good point. which, honestly, means you can argue that shot rounds count as normal ammo, for price and availability. that makes a lot more sense.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Flechette rounds have small, sharp metal fragments.

That, too, is arguable. I know that SR3 p. 116 says so, but such ammunition would be utterly useless in combat.

QUOTE (mfb)
you can argue that shot rounds count as normal ammo, for price and availability.

Yeah, whether it can be argued or not, it makes more sense.
Real flechettes would be a bunch of steel needles flying through the air. Don't make the mistake of thinking that SR's use of the word flechette has even the smallest resemblance to reality. Think of flechette ammo as frangible ammunition (or shot, in the case of a shotgun), and you'll be much better off. It's retarded, but welcome to canon.

Incidentally, with shotguns, I'd suggest counting flechette and slugs as normal for pricing and availability.
Something else about the flechette rulss that gets me a bit is this. How much armour do really need to have for it stop the damage lvl increase?

Taking the rules to the letter you just need some leather trousers (thats pants to you americans (which is underware to us)). Now that seems a little wrong, surly you would need little more than that.

Looks at this, Mr thinks he's a smartass (Mr ThaS) and Mr smartass (Mr S) are preping for a run. They both go out to get the various bits they need.

Mr ThaS comes back sits on the couch and spends the next 10 mins trying to get comfortable due to his lovely new dermal plating. But thinking himself all clever cos his now not effected by the Damage upgrade of Flechette rounds. But he is 6000 nuyen.gif and .5 cyber.gif out of pocket.

Then just as he starts thinking he really smart for his choice in walks in Mr S in his swancky new Leather Trousers and Matrix style Jacket, He is also immune to the Flechette damage increase. But Mr S is only 750 nuyen.gif out of pocket (he likes his real threads), not only that but he has an armour rating of 4 to reduce the poewr by!!

Seems a little wrong (well to me at least)
Oh no, not this discussion again.
Ok Moosegod anychance of pointing me in the direction of the thread where it was last discussed? also was there a general consence's of the topic?
Jason Farlander
I'm going to have to side with Crusher Bob on this one... Keep the staged up damage code to make flechette ammo (and, for that matter, dermal plating) worthwhile.

Something I just randomly thought of: Both ballistic and impact armor affect flechette ammo. Rather than doing the whole " normal ballistic or double impact" shuffle, why not just add ballistic and impact ratings to determine a total "vs flechette" armor rating? This would help balance out the retaining of the staged up DL, and it makes a decent amount of sense to me. Are there any particularly obvious reasons I've missed to *not* do this? (note that this is a random thought and doesnt represent anything I have either carefully deliberated on or used in my games)
No, I was refering to the "flechettes are stupid" debate, Shockwave.

well thanks.. so i got this...

10D versus no armor
10S agianst anything with armor.. so just sporting some balistic clothes can mean Serious or Deadly

Well the guy with the shotgun.. wanted the spread.. he wanted to just go into a room and blast and take everything out.. but hes using and Enfield with BF 99% of the time! I just used the t250 because of its simplicity.

Well that makes flechette ammo useless to a runner. I mean when have you shot at something that wasn't wearing armor.. KK my character and SJ the other character we are the other GMs we don't wear body armor unless WE ARE ON A RUN!

We have no mage power tho... i susspect us getting nailed by a spirit! sarcastic.gif
Seriously, have any of you considered how incredibly powerful leaving the damage increase on armored targets is? If you do that, I'll never load anything but flechettes. Take, for example, a heavy pistol against a security guard with a body of 4 and an armored jacket (5/3). A normal round will punch through with a power of 4M. With four dice to resist (ignore combat pool), he'll stage that down to light fairly reliably. A flechette round would punch through with a power of 3S, which may average out as only slightly less likely to be staged down to light, but has the added bonus of simply overwhelming characters with low body by requiring too many successes to stage down, and, furthermore, tearing anything without armor to pieces. If you want to set a limit, leave the damage at normal for anything with more than one point of impact or anything with a point of ballistic.

Shot is about the only thing that makes any sense for not staging the damage down with armor, and that's only because it is a cloud of fragments before impact and not after.
QUOTE (Arethusa)
If you want to set a limit, leave the damage at normal for anything with more than one point of impact or anything with a point of ballistic.

Personally i was thinking that A total armour value of say 5 (ballistic plus impact) (or a single rating of 4 or higher) would be needed, Just so you could rule out clothing that has an armour value as opposed to armour that happens to be clothing.

Example of armour that would stop the damage increase:
FFBA lvl3
Industrious Line coveralls (both types)
Rapid Transit Heavy jumpsuit
Secure Ultra Vest.
All Security armour and Hardened Military armours

Examples of armour that Wouldn't stop the damage increase.
FFBA lvl2
Real Leather
Full camo suit (without jacket)
Secure clothing

These are all nothing more than "stage 1" brainstorming
Jason Farlander
Lets pretend we are using the optional rule I made up.

GM Goon 1 is packing a Defiance T-250, loaded with shot or flechette (base damage 10Df) He has a shotgun skill of 4, and 4 combat pool

Average Joe, an average joe, is wearing an armored jacket. He has 3's in all of his stats except body (he has a 4 in body -- he exercises regularly), giving him a combat pool of 4.

GM Goon 1 shoots at him 1 time, using all of his combat pool. He gets the average result of 4 successes, staging the damage to 2 above deadly... ouch.

Average Joe, adding his ballistic and impact armor ratings to a total of 8, has a tn of 2. He rolls all the dice he can, 8, generating an average result of 7 successes. He is seriously hurt, but he survives and runs away

After spending some time in the hospital to recover, Average Joe is waiting for a taxi when he is approached by GM Goon 2.

GM Goon 2 is packing a Defiance T-250, loaded with slugs (Base 10S). He has the same skills as GM Goon 1. When GM Goon 2 shoots at AJ, he generates the same number of successes, staging the damage to one above deadly.

This time, Average Joe has a TN of 5 to resist the damage. Rolling his 8 dice, he only generates 3 successes... He dies.
i would say.. average joe isn't that average after being assulted by goons with T250s.. i runner doesn't get approached that often! I would also say.. Average joe should have some combat skills after the first assault!
Jason Farlander
Well he probably would have developed some self defense skills... but he got killed on the way out of the hospital. Poor Joe.

After thinking about it a bit, heres what I've come up with:

Using the rule that the flechette staging up is retained even if the target is armored, and the rule that you add ballistic and impact armor ratings vs flechette ammo, flechette becomes better than normal against targets with little or no armor, as well as against targets with heavy armor (since TN's can never drop below 2). Normal ammo is better against moderately armored targets.

This inconsistency is not what I would consider to be a good thing.

As such, I would say that, if the modified armor rating (ball + imp) equals or exceeds the power of the weapon, the damage level would be staged back down. Thus, normal rounds would be better against sec armor than flechette rounds would. Perhaps this just overcomplicates things... but I just really dont like that any armor at all negates the benefits of flechette rounds. Makes 'em kinda worthless, IMO (especially considering how much they cost).
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Using the rule that the flechette staging up is retained even if the target is armored, and the rule that you add ballistic and impact armor ratings vs flechette ammo, flechette becomes better than normal against targets with little or no armor, as well as against targets with heavy armor (since TN's can never drop below 2). Normal ammo is better against moderately armored targets.

This inconsistency is not what I would consider to be a good thing.

I'm glad you looked at that further, I was looking at it myself but i couldn't work out what was wrong with it (i couldn't be arsed to actually do the maths) the only thing i could spot was that Mr S (from my previous example) was actually very much worst off then MR ThaS.
QUOTE (JackWill)
Well that makes flechette ammo useless to a runner.

Yes, JackWill, that's the same conclusion most Shadowrunners make. In most circumstances (non-burstfire weapons) flechette and shot ammo don't give you an edge, unless you play with rules that allow a called shot to bypass armor. Here's a huge thread on Called Shots that'll give you an idea of the disagreements on called shots.

The Ares Viper Slivergun (flechette only, burst fire, silent, high concealability, large ammo capacity) is generally considered broken and unbalancing, particularly if you allow Called Shots to bypass armor. You'd do well to simply outlaw it in your game.
It is a Canon weapon, OurTeam. It is in the Core Rulebook even. Everything in there should be usable.
Austere Emancipator
You can trust toturi to come in and defend canon...

Some people like house ruling things. The core rulebook even states that this is encouraged. Saying that "But that is canon" is as silly as saying "But the bible says...". The bible says that rabbits are ruminants. Canon doesn't always make sense. Sometimes house rules work better for an individual game.
no matter how you slice it, the AVS feels like cheating to me.
Well the rule on Called shots and how stupid some people are.. its written clearly.

Called shot:
-The damge code is increased by one level THe character also must apply a +4 modifier to the target number for the rest of the shot.

-The character may hit a specific sub-target on something VECHICLE-SIZED or larger, such as a vehicle's windows or tires. Normal damge rules apply against the specific part of the vehicle. THe character receives a +4 modifier to the target number for this shot.

Ok where in there does it say you can bypass armor.. they left that option out for a reason! Because of the uberness

And i know trolls are big.. but a troll in full combat armor is not that large!

And agree with the AVS.. i love the gun.. for its concealabilty and silencer... err... sucks.. i hate playing with it.. i been reduced to browning max powers! ANd a 30 clip last for ever in SA mode! grinbig.gif
Just so y'all know, they make shotgun flechette rounds . . .

Firequest International

Personally, I would consider that Shot rounds would count as Flechette, but be bought as normal ammunition, because of the whole nature of the shotgun shell.
Austere Emancipator
Well, yeah, they do.

So you might want to allow actual Flechette ammo for shotguns too (at the same price as Flechette ammo for other weapons, with the same effects as Flechette ammo for other weapons). Although, as was mentioned, SR Flechette ammo really doesn't work anything like real world flechette ammo does.
The discussion about flechette ammo applies to other types as well (glazer, mercury, HP). Sometimes you'll want better damage against unarmoured opponents, other times you'll want AP, then there's the standard stuff. When running a character for whom these things matter I'd carry a few spare clips - with ammo for different situations. When your HP ammo bounces off your target, try switching to AP - if you need to take down someone with no armour move back to HP. Simple.

How can the AVS be cheating - against armoured opponents it's not that good at all (as mentioned flechette ammo is not good for most runners). Stuff like Narcoject, capsule rounds and the squirt gun are far more effective...
Austere Emancipator
Because it's just broken, no matter how you look at it. The silencer, the mag capacity, the concealability, everything. Combine that with the potentially broken Flechette ammo and the potentially very broken "Called Shot Bypasses Armor" rules some people use, and you've got something that would be called "bug abusing" in many games...
QUOTE (JackWill)
Well the rule on Called shots ... is written clearly. {Description of rules from main book}

JackWill, it IS written clearly in the main book, but there is more to it than that. See my comments about called shots in the 7th posting on this thread: Click this link..
<GM mode>
Bearclaw's interpretations/house rules on shot/flechette damage.

All shot/flechette rounds are considered the same. Sure, there may be cool sharp fragments in some, but that does not in any way help penetrate a big sheet of metal.

All armor is considered hardened against flechette damage. If the damage is staged to 0 or below, there is no damage.

You cannot do a called shot with an area effect weapon.

</GM mode>
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