It obviously is... why wouldn't it be? But telling it to conceal however many people it can at once would just be one service.

Yes... Exactly...

spirits can use their powers on a group of people. if you're using it on a group including your team and the spirit, that's 1 task. assuming you even bring the spirit along. incidentally, it's a critter power and not a spell. the only critter power subject to object resistance is innate spell.

and i don't care what your shadowrunner expert has in perception. if i'm running against another shadowrunner team, i'm already dead. that means the corp knows i'm coming, and when, and has hired a shadowrunner team specifically to stop me. so blah, blah, blah, your 400 BP runner still has some dice pool left, who freaking cares. your runner team isn't there, and their skills, equipment, and pretty much everything about them is completely irrelevant. but hey, if it's that important, the red samurai have 3 skill in perception, and 3 intuition, and no vision enhancement. this is the HTR team, this is the cavalry, and they don't have the skills to reliably break through concealment of a force 8 spirit.

now then, as to the death row thing: first off, the math was never meant to be a perfect representation. it still happens. 1 in 5000 times resulting in a mage exploding is *still* a problem when you're losing a top-rated summoner, and in any case 24P damage is likely to finish them off anyways. plus, that's assuming 5 mages in the world do it. if you have 20 or 30 (remember, we're talking about huge, world-spanning corporations with facilities all over the place) it's still going to be uncomfortably common, and the corp still won't be able to replace the summoners fast enough. it isn't death row for the shadowrunning mage because i have NEVER said anything about binding anything before a run, and the most you're going to eat on summoning a force 8 spirit is 16P. yes, that is bad. but it isn't instant guaranteed death. also, for the record, fetishes are for spells, not for spirits. additionally, the spirit may not need to eat, sleep, or take breaks, but the magician who summons the spirit does. no magician, noone to order the spirit. noone to order the spirit, the spirit doesn't do anything. so now we need 3 shifts of these magicians, plus we need to account for the fact that some of them will be binding (takes 8 hours for a force 8 spirit) at any given time and won't be available to deal with security problems. also, it's actually better to bind a new spirit; the spirit's resist pool is lower vs the summoning, and the summoning services carry over into bound spirits (not that this is particularly relevant, but you seemed to bring it up thinking it was; seriously, pull your head out of second edition and read up on 4th a bit more please, i shouldn't have to keep explaining the rules to someone who focuses on this area of the rules)

if the force 8 spirit keeps the grunts (and once again, it's right there in the core book, security grunts do not have perception, and neither does their wagemage lieutenant) from spotting you, it's done it's job. there won't be an HTR team coming in. because you took steps to keep them from seeing you, like having a force 8 (or 6, or whatever) spirit. now, maybe for your magician, you don't have a force 8 spirit. but you should bloody well go in prepared. whatever the max you can handle is, you should go in with that, because going in with less increases your chance of getting dead. maybe your mage can't handle force 8, and goes in with force 6, or whatever. but whatever they go in with, it should be the best they can handle. adjust it to whatever level your group is at, fine, but don't skimp on the stuff that's keeping you alive.

also, sure the spirit won't be coming through the ward with you (most likely... assuming the ward was not set up by an idiot, and actually covers the walls as well, that is). however, there are plenty of places you can go where the spirit need not pass through the ward. if you break into a compound, they won't have the whole compound warded, just specific buildings, or even more likely only specific rooms. if your meet is in a bar, the bar might not even have any ward at all, and you've now got an ace in the hole if Mr J is setting up a trap. if you're extracting a target from their home, the street isn't warded. having a spirit that close by if needed is a huge deal. and once again, sustaining a power has no range. if the spirit can survive on mars, it can put the power on you and then go sustain it from mars. you can just pick up concealment and the spirit need not ever even see the facility you're trying to break into.

as for the dedicated combat medic, i find it hard to believe that you really consider 1 skill and 1 attribute (potentially not even the attribute, if it's being done through the matrix) and one inexpensive piece of equipment means that the person can't do anything else. we're not talking about a huge allocation of resources here, and it's a skill that you just might want to have available at some point as a shadowrunner.

They indeed can use their powers on a group... but remember that the spirit MUST be within Magic Rating x 100 meters for the sustainability of the power to work, AND they have to be on the same plane as you to do so... sounds like coming along to me...



Again... NOT ALL HRT teams are created equal...This is probably the First insertion of the immediate HRT Team... others may well be on the way... Your mileage may vary, of course, but our GM does not use the "standard" security templates all the time... get over it... Do you have any idea how you sound by the way?



How is a newly summoned spirit easier to bind? Please educate me on this one... The resistance is the same UNLESS you alloocated EDGE dice to resist the summoning in the first place... and even so, they could always add EDGE to resist the binding as well...

Expecting your team's mage to perform something that even CORP mages would be reluctant to do is crazy... Shadowrunner Mages are no more suicidal than the Corp Mages that you are talking about... and for your edification, I am not in Second Edition, but Fourth (unless you were not directing that at ME, but the statement stands anyway)

And again, Read the Book... There are at least 3 fetishes that are SPECIFICALLY for conjurers, not spellcasters, in the BBB... They are appropriately enough called: Summoning, Binding and Banishing Foci...



THOSE Security guards do not have perception, but it is sheer arogance to state that NO Security Guards have Perception... Get your head out of the clouds and use some common sense for once... the templates are just that... templates... to be modified for the purpose to which you will be using them... they are not carved in stone and inviolable or immutable...

Also, Please notte that there is technology that will defeat the sneaking/concealing/invisibility that you are so fond of... one example is the Ultra-Wide Band Radar system...

Preparation is a veritable necessity in the shadows, without it you shall surely die... however, teh best you can do is to attempt to cover any eventuality... sometimes things are overlooked... I would say the the ability to adapt and overcome is at least AS IMPORTANT if not more so than being prepared...



NO... Please go back and read the book (PAge 178, Spirit Range)... Spirits MUST STAY within 100 meters x Magic rating to be effective in their role as support... beyond that distance, they will be of no use to you as they cannot maintain their effects beyond that range...



All skills are useful, the fact is that at Chargen, you must choose where you will be skilled in... all skills can be picked up eventually... How do you prioritize your skill choices... I do so bu COncept, and some skills fall by the wayside util I can afford them... remember, Shadowrun is a team sport... members of the team should be able to fill holes left by others...

Incorrect. A spirit must remain within Magic x 100 meters, or be placed on a Remote Service. There is no restriction whatsoever on where a spirit must be to continue sustaining a power or spell - range or plane of existence.


Read the Book. A Fetish is exclusive to spellcasting - by limiting your ability to cast a spell, you receive a +2 dice pool modifier to Drain Resistance
for that spell. There is no such thing (RAW) as a Conjuring Fetish.


NO... Please go back and read the book. There is no restriction whatsoever on where a spirit must be to sustain a power.

Per the text, if a spirit is forced to vacate the premise of the summoning mage, he will return within range at the earliest convenience... as for the Remote Service... That would be a task to Perform, not something to sustain... you may interpret it that way, but I do not... Your choice... both are accurate per the RAW unless you can prove otherwise...

Also, by RAW (Strictest interpretation), any sustained powers immediately fade once you cross planes of existence... otherwise I could augment myself with all sorts of Buff spells and then astrally project for crazy uber astral madness... Does not work that way...



Sorry, You are right... I misread Fetish for Foci... I was referring to a FOCI... SEE THE text you quoted, you could have figured that I was referring to foci from context... I misread...... Shoot me...



I maintain that the spirit MUST be within range of the casting mage and on the same plane of existence, and this is a valid interpretation of the RAW... This is rational and makes a great deal of sense... you may choose to interpret it differently, and your interpretation can also be considered RAW by definition as well... it is a Gray Area...

And for the Record, I will say Again..... By RAW (Strictest interpretation), any sustained powers immediately fade once you cross planes of existence... otherwise I could augment myself with all sorts of Buff spells and then astrally project for crazy uber astral madness... Does not work that way...

I hadn't considered the same plane issue here, and it just makes sense. (Kerenshara's aspected: sorcery, so her summoning is zilch for now. I obviously haven't hit the sections hard enough and coherently enough yet.) That would mean even if it's in hip pocket tagging along, it takes an action to show up. And that once it conceals you, it would have to remain inside that 100xforce meters and not be able to go hip-pocket again. I said they were special and powerful, but they DO have their limitations...

made-up limitations don't count as limitations.

it doesn't matter where the spirit is. it can be 100 miles away doing the spirit equivalent of getting drunk in a bar, it can still sustain the power. a remote service is any service that takes the spirit away from you. if you tell the spirit to stay someplace while sustaining a power on you, that is a remote service (provided you leave). sustaining has no stated limitations on plane, just that the power cannot be activated from a different plane to the target iirc. the "strictest interpretation of RAW" (apart from being useless to most anyone who isn't in toturi's game) doesn't say anything about whether or not you can sustain something across a planar boundary. in fact, i'm pretty sure there's an explicit dev statement somewhere to the effect that spirits can sustain a power on you from the astral, and typically will unless you explicitly tell them otherwise because they don't like being in the physical.

now then, for the next step: pay close attention. there is a difference between binding and summoning. since you apparently haven't actually read this section of the book, or you haven't understood it, i am going to explain it to you. both binding and summoning are forms of conjuring. when you summon a spirit, the spirit resists with it's force in dice vs your summoning dicepool, if you succeed you get services equal to your net hits, otherwise you fail to summon, and in either case you eat drain equal to twice the number of successes the spirit gets, regardless of success, failure, or number of net hits on your part. with me so far?

then, you can choose to bind a spirit. this is your binding dice pool opposed by twice the spirit's rating. resolve it the same as above, except that the spirit becomes a bound spirit. notice that there is no difference between the services generated from either test (if any), there are simply services, and either bound or unbound spirits.

therefore, economically speaking, the first time you bind a spirit you are getting one free set of services from the initial summoning test, and furthermore that set of services is likely to be larger than what you could generate on a typical binding test because the opposing dice pool is much smaller (half, in fact) on the summoning test.

now then, next step: where do the various conjuring focuses enter in? they add to your dice pool. they do nothing for drain, which is the relevant limiting factor here. certainly, it's a concern whether you get a lot of services, or only one service, or even if you fail, but really the reason people don't want to bind a force 8 spirit is because sooner the drain is going to kill them with no realistic chance of survival (as i said earlier, 24P vs drain pool is plenty to kill most people )

so then, let's go back over my earlier statements, and actually pay attention to what i said: before a shadowrun, it should be standard procedure to *summon* the best spirit you can handle. you won't find many high-force spirits guarding locations, because such spirits must either be *bound* or require the magician to be there. since it's pretty near a death sentence to take a job *binding* force 8 spirits over the long term, you're not likely to encounter a force 8 spirit patrolling a facility unless the mage is there, although a spirit on a remote service is possible (but then, such a spirit wouldn't be under any obligation to go beyond it's instructions and you can't change it's instructions anymore because there are no services left).

also, sure not all HRT teams are the same, or even all security teams. but even on your proposed 9 DP for perception checks, the spirit is going to make it really improbable for the security team to spot the runners if the security team is actively looking for them. in fact, your skilled security teams just give a better reason to go with the force 8 spirit; against a default sec team, you only need a force 2 spirit and they won't have any dicepool left. force 4 is just overkill in the default. additionally, if the default in the book is one way, that implies that you can expect that in most places. they gave us a typical security guard. if it's typical for a security guard to not have perception, that may not limit all security guards across the world from having perception... but it does mean that it's going to be quite common to meet security guards without perception. if the typical security guard doesn't have vision enhancement at all, let alone rating 3, then that means it isn't unreasonable to expect most security guards to have no vision enhancement.

*sits politely and demurely while Mr. Jaid begins his lecture*
"Yes, Mr. Jaid."


*hurriedly takes notes on Mr. Jaid's lecture, knowing there will be a quiz in the morning*
*thought they had switched to saying "summoned" instead of "bound" several posts ago, but keeps writing*
*raises hand to be recognized*
"Mr. Jaid, if the corps can't *bind* a spirit safely above force 5 like you said last time, wouldn't a force 6 spirit be enough to deal with them? And then you wouldn't be taking any drain damage at all, probably. And you'd have more services, too, wouldn't you?"
*chews on pen cap while thinking*
"Why do you assume that the corps wouldn't have somebody powerful enough and stuff to make a high-force spirit and bind it? I mean, they could have a Medic Adept or something there to keep them alive and make sure things were chill, and they could have a rating 6 medkit and a gurney, and a rating 6 or better Power Focus, and if they were an initiate and had a higher base Magic stat so it wouldn't be physical drain anyway..."
*notices Mr. Jaid fuming at them, and hangs their head*


*scribbles on a scrap of ancient hard copy and passes it to the person next to them when Mr. Jaid's back is turned*
>>Wonder if we can get a list of places Mr. Jaid has been to that were like that. Sounds like it would be easy bank.<<
*giggles ensue, but are interrupted by the furious glare from Mr. Jaid directed at the rest of the classroom*

You know, I said I hadn't read it heavily, that doesn't mean I totally ignored it. You are SO set on lecturing us on the differences between summoned and bound spirits, I do remember reading (and re-checking) that UNbound spirits vanish at sundown or at sunrise REGARDLESS of any remaining services; So, for the FINAL time, I am going to ask you O-N-E S-I-M-P-L-E Q-U-E-S-T-I-O-N: When exactly do you summon the most powerful spirit "you can handle"? (By your definition, that would seem to be "that doesn't kill you, probably".) So there can be no mistake, let me try to help by quoting two speciffic passages of the BBB.

SR4A, P.177: Summoning
The services of a summoned spirit remain only until sunrise or sunset,whichever comes first, unless the spirit is bound to the magician.

SR4A, P.252: Using First Aid
Characters with the First Aid skill may immediately help reduce the trauma of wounds (Stun or Physical). First Aid may only be applied within 12 hours of when the damage was taken. Roll a First Aid + Logic (2) Test, applying appropriate situational modifiers. (Characters using First Aid on themselves must apply their wound modifiers to the test.) Using the First Aid skill is a Complex Action, and takes a number of Combat Turns equal to the amount of damage the character is attempting to heal. Each net hit over the threshold reduces 1 box of damage.
A critical glitch on a First Aid Test increases the damage by 1D3 boxes; time is increased accordingly.
The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s rating. First Aid may only be applied to a character once (for that set of wounds), and it may not be applied if the character has been magically healed.

Yes, we ALL know by now that First Aid, per the RAW, MAY in fact be used to heal both physical and stun drain damage, while magical healing may not. So, your "medic" isn't that primarily, and you mentioned taking it cheaply re: BP cost. So we'll call it INT4, First Aid 2 + a rating 6 med kit. That's 12 dice, or 4 hits on average. But the first aid skill is only 2, so that's your actual limit. You would need to buy First Aid at Rating 4 to keep all four hits/boxes healed. Take an average shadowrunning mage who isn't focused on summoning, so they take the Conjuring Group at 4. That gives them Summoning at 4 by definition. Let's say a Magic Rating of 6, the De Rigueur Rating 4 Power Focus (purchased with the "Restricted Gear" 5BP quality at CharGen), and a Drain Resistance dice pool of 14 (Can't start with more than one stat maxed, and I assume one of them has the Exceptional Attribute quality attached to it as well). OK so you go for the Force 8 spirit. Here goes:

Initial Summoning test = your [4+6+4] dice against the spirit's F[8]. Call that 5 to 3, rounding up for both of you equally. that means you have two services on this spirit.
Drain Resistance test = 3 spirit hits x 2 Physical (since 8 is higher than your native 6 Magic rating) damage, resisted by your 14 dice, again 5 hits. OK, so you take 1 physical wound, and your medic has plenty to patch you up with.

*crosses their fingers and hopes they passed the quiz*

Let's try that again with the power focus at the normal limit of F2: [4+6+2] vs [8] = [4] - [3] = 1 success. Drain remains unchanged. So you have your spirit for one whole service. Still workable, and you have your LAW rocket.

Except, as you correctly pointed out, eventually it all has to catch up with you. So if the spirit rolls up one, you have to resist 8 physical, leaving you with three points of physical drain damage, and your medic can't patch you before the run to full. Worst case, it's 16 physical drain, and you take 11 physical damage. That's why I asked WHEN you do this summoning, because if it's during the day before a run you knew was coming in a secure area, then at sunset it vanishes. Are you really willing to take your mage (or compel your table-mate's mage) to go on a run with 1-3 boxes of damage to begin with, before you even set foot outside your door? And since you brought up meeting with Johnson, did you have that damage before you showed up to the meet?

Keep in mind, I was putting EVERYTHING possible into the drain resistance dice pool; Actually, more, because you're limited to 35 BP of qualities by the RAW, and that means Magician(15) + Exceptional Attribute(20) + Restricted Gear(5) = 40, so that would be over. You could achieve the same thing I guess by going with Focused Concentration once instead, and you would still have 5 BP of qualities left. But the math doesn't change. I also assumed an elf with a Charisma + Willpower drain resistance tradition. The average 'runner would have 13 dice at best with the same qualities, rounding down most of the time resulting in another point of physical drain damage.

So, since I did the quiz with the book "in my lap", I am pretty sure my math is correct. The quotations were cut and pasted, so I am pretty sure about THEM. Can I PLEASE have an answer to the question about time? And I am very curious if you would seriously EXPECT somebody else to routinely go about with 2-4 boxes of physical damage prior to run-start so that they could give your group 1 (or at most probably 2) services from a force 8 spirit?

Oh, and in case you're wondering, it's called "satire".

Don't forget you can edge the drain test if necessary. Heck, even edge the summoning roll too, just to see if you can take those failed dice and turn them into enough successes.

Karenshara:
No healing by first aid is limited by the HIGHER of your first aid skill or medkit rating.
Also make sure to look at the negative dicepools mods for mundane healing tests. It's very easy for a clued in GM to reduce those dice pools.

And not everyone uses restricted gear in chargen like that. Of the mages I've seen, very few have had the 'de rigeur' power focus fashion accessory you like to harp on so much. (even then 29 BP for 4 points of magic is just about right costwise (vs. 40 for actual points), given all the limitations and problems that come w/ foci. Everything from getting stolen and used against you, to stealth requirements meaning that it's taking time and valuable actions to turn them on when you need it).

Even without a power focus, a lot of people will have a mentor spirit or specialization giving an extra +2 (or for more specialized +4 dice).

Averages mean very little... you should be more worried about standard deviations and the oddball flyers which pop up from time to time.

It used to be that you could use the spellcasting or spirit focus to withhold it's dice for the drain test and use the power focus for the first roll. (quite frankly... I'm sad to see that one go, as otherwise those focus are too limited).

Do we have any proof that it does not work that way?

It went because it was poorly worded. Unfortunately.

Our group has over-turned the errata such that you can use the dice for one of the two tests (i.e. as they're meant to be used).

kerenshara: you summon the spirit at the earliest opportunity where you know you're going to need it. ie the earliest time between the meet happening and either sundown/sunrise. ie the only time when you could summon it. there's only one answer to that question. going to a potentially bad situation with backup and a slight wound leftover is better than going to a meet with no backup and having to spend a complex action and start off with a moderate wound because you just summoned in the middle of a firefight.

and as has been said, if bad things happen, well, that's what edge is for. i don't know that i would recommend edging the summoning test, but if the drain test looks bad, then sure... edge it. that's what edge is for. you do have some edge, right?

also, as has been mentioned, it is trivially easy to get your maximum boxes healed to 6 (medkit rating 6 is only 300 nuyen and no availability). it isn't even terribly hard to get it to 8, given we're talking about a controlled setting and a medical shop is rating 8, iirc.

a force 6 spirit vs a force 5 spirit is by no means guaranteed. a force 8 spirit vs a force 5 spirit is a much more comfortable margin, but even then it still isn't guaranteed. by having the force 8 spirit instead of the force 6, you greatly increase your chance of success, in the event that it even comes down to spirit vs spirit combat.

and once again, *if* you even have these highly trained security guards contrary to what is standard for facilities all over the place, that's fine; your game is going to be different from the default setting, pretty much everyone's will be. but here's the thing: that only argues more strongly in favor of getting the high force spirit on your side. a force 4 spirit in your games is worth a -4 to a dicepool of 9 for your average guards, whereas a force 8 spirit is worth -8 to a dicepool of 9. a force 8 spirit takes them all the way down to 1 die to perceive you, which i for one like a whole lot better than 5 dice.

and for the record, i have been repeatedly correcting misunderstandings, misreadings, and pointing out changes between the editions for you and others. this indicates a fundemental lack of understanding of the core knowledge required for a discussion about the subject. if you (in this case this is a plural you) had really ready the book all that closely, then we wouldn't be having discussions about summoning fetishes or the cap on first aid hits. i wouldn't have to explain that power focuses don't add their rating to magic, but merely to magic rolls. i wouldn't have to explain that spirit powers are not subject to counterspelling, or that they can be sustained from anywhere. in almost every single post i have made, i have been correcting errors in people's understanding of the rules. if i go into teacher mode, it's because people are discussing things as if they are fact when they don't seem to actually know how the rules work to begin with. if i go out of my way to discuss the difference between summoning and binding, it's because you're attributing statement's i've made about binding and applying them to summoning, and/or vice versa, as if you didn't understand the difference here. so, yes, i am getting a little tired of explaining to people the most basic rules involved in this discussion. kindly read up on the rules you (and this is still plural, it's not just one person guilty of this) are using before you go out and make a statement of so-called fact.

@happy daze: the default is that spirits can sustain powers (provided the duraction is appropriate, of course). exceptions to that rule (such as a rule relating to distance or planar boundaries) would need to be called out specifically, because the rules already say it can be done. you are of course welcome to change this for your own games.

Karenshara:
Yes, you really should make a point to reread the rules in question when you post... there's just a lot of little things you're missing but calling other people on. If you're going to call someone out on a point, please double check it first in the SR4a.


Jaid:
I'm a little surprised... but my local GM has started applying counterspelling to critter powers. An admitted house rule. But the more I think about it... it makes sense... magic by any other name is still magic. And dispelling can actively jam any magic power used close to it.

He was getting a little tired of the 'lightning bolts' flying from elemental attacks not being subject to the 'lightning bolt' limitations of the spells, when they're essentially the same thing, minus the drain.

Also understandably, because powers like fear, confusion, concealment, movement.. and such can be pretty devastating. (there's a lot of critter powers which roll 2x Force... vs only willpower).


I understand it's a house rule, and not even a common one at that.

A Remote Service is great, as far as it removes ANY OTHER SERVICES you might have to pursue the remote service... I would agree that you COULD have the spirit conceal you and then place it on remorte service to maintain the concealment.... However, It would still need to stay on the same plane of existence as you do...

Here is why... when you canst a spell and sustain it (through the dice penalty or through a sustaining focus) you cannot Astrally project if you want to maintain the spell (in either case) - See BBB page 173 under Choosing the Targets... Targets MUST be on the same plane of existence, ASTRALLY PERCEIVING magicians can cast on both planes of existence, BUT THEY MUST BE ABLE TO PERCEIVE THE TARGET... what makes you think that spirits are any different? An in fact, the spirit MUST be on the same plane of existence to enact a Power as well...



Binding is Different than summoning... YES... No Dispute... I have read the book and understand it probably better than you do my good man...

First... The spirit resists with its force... AND EDGE IF IT CHOOSES TO DO SO (Total of 2x Force)... If you succeed, you gain Services equal to your net successes... Otherwise you take damage for no reason as you fail to summon......



THEN if you choose to Bind the spirit it gets 2x Force ... AND AGAIN EDGE IF IT CHOOSES TO DO SO (Total of 3x Force)...
NOW, if you manage to obtain a SINGLE net hit, you Bind the spirit... You need multiple net hits to add services to the Binding over and above the first...



This is subjective and not always true, but I will let you slide on it ... after all the spirit could spend edge on either roll...



BULL, again, read the Book... Summoning and Binding Foci can add to the DRAIN if you do not use those dice for the actual summoning or binding... Plain as day, BBB, Page 191...



And once again, if the Corp mages are not summoning/binding the Force 8 Spirit, why would you expect the Character in the group to do so... Truth is, Mages are Mages, regardless who they work for... anything the character can do, the Corp summoner can do as well... so your argument is FLAWED...



RADAR will find them AT NO PENALTY... Period... Invisibility, Concealment, Exceptional stealth roles are all moot if the facility has a radar system, or Pressure Pads, or any number of other systems available to them... Just because YOU do not believe it is so, does not make it that way... Page 36 of Augmentation, Radar Sensor... Cheap and easy to implant into security personnell... the better one for ground security is in Arsenal if I remember correctly (do not have my book on me at this moment)...

Please don't insult my intelligence as you have been prone to do... If you disagree with me, give me references in teh book that shows it... it is possible that I might have missed something, but until you can show me references, rather than opinion, we will not get very far...

So,Are we done yet...

Also, Don't forget that there is a threshold of 2 before any healing actaully occurrs... thus with a skill of 2 you hit the threshold and no boxes are healed...



I am not sure that she is the one hammering it home, it does seem to be a Dumpshock special when mages are created however...



This is true, at least for a single type of spirit anyway



Also very true...



You can, it is on page 191 of the BBB...

*shakes his head*

Again, per the book, you can... unless that has changed in SR4A anyway, still do not have my copy...

Page 191, BBB...

Hey HappyDaze...

Apparently, If you lock a spell in a Sustaining Focus it looks like it goes with you... But only in a Focus... You wanna take spells with you you gotta cast them after you have projected... you must be on the smae plane to affect anything with a spell, however, a sustaining Foci is astrally active if activated so it would translate over... So my mistake...

Page 191, BBB under Activation, 2nd Paragraph...

Thanks

Thanks for the page number. I also found radar mentioned in Arsenal, like you said, on page 60.

But I couldn't find anything that specifically said it worked against Cocealment. Could you point me to the right direction?

Augmentation p.36 says that "It [Radar Sensor] is unaffectedby visual tricks" and specifically mentions camouflage and Invisibility (just the spell, which is visual). My first thought was that it allows you to perceive everything directly, without any test, so that Concealments modifier wouldn't work, as it "subtracts a number of dice equal to the critter’s Magic from any Perception Tests to locate the concealed subject". But this doesn't seem to be the case, as Radar only negates visibility modifiers, and the critter power seems to be multi-sensory... maybe it even works by clouding the minds of the observers - who knows.

It's not easy to see where the line goes with Concealment. Sight? Yes. Pressure plates? I'd say no. Radar? I'm not sure. Couldn't Concealment also do to radar what it does to light and sound in general?

Not just trying to be difficult

Concealment is the magical Invisibility power for the Spirit... Magical Invisibility has no effect, so by logical extension, magical concealment (same effect) should have none either... It is a case of not having to state the obvious in my point of view... why have to wrtite it out every single time when it has already been established that "Visual Tricks" have no effect on the radar system... you are STILL there, just not visible (or less visible as the case may be... you have not become intangible)... and yes, it does cover some of the other senses as well... but it is still a negative dice modifier... you are NOT intangible, you still have a reflection, and a radar has no mind to cloud...

Because concealment reduces dice vs all perception tests not visual maybe. I hate to state the obvious though.

Which I already stated...But if you think about it, you generally need only a single net hit to notice anything with a perception test... the Spell INVISIBILITY changes that to net hits equal to the net hits on the spell casting effect... all Concealment does is reduce your dice pool... still need only a single net hit to notice the concealed team moving in to the facility...

As has been stated "Visual Tricks" do not affect the Radar Sensor, and as such, the more powerful of the two (Invisibility) is directly quoted as being ineffective, so if the most powerful version does not work (Invisibility), why should the weaker version (Concealment) do so? As a note... the concealment might still hide you from the hellhounds (covers scent and sound as well), but then again, it might not...

Concealment is extremely useful for hiding in the astral realms, as it is the only magical way to do so without showing up as a glowing beacon, whereas Invisibility, no matter how powerful, glows like daylight on the astral... each has its own place...

Tymeas....

Quit being an idiot and dl the errata... and previous errata (it was in those as well, first they stripped it from one, then another... and finally w/ SR4a none of them have it!)

The specialized foci HAVE BEEN CHANGED... when the BBB was printed yes they could. We've all said as much. All our text indicate that IT HAS GONE THROUGH A STATE OF CHANGE (and lament the fact). That change isn't in the book as printed evidently or we wouldn't have stated it in that way.

Yes, if it was up to me... I'd keep their ability to withhold as otherwise they're pretty pointless (only one group of spells, or only one type of spirit... for the karma cost to bind and sheer cost... not worth it. That's why most people only look at power, weapon, sustaining, shielding, etc. foci).


Dumpshockers regularly engage in what engineers call 'worst case analysis'... what is the extreme condition... in that case yes a force 4 power focus is worst case for adding more and more dice to things. We do it, mostly because we're having fun discussing the extents of the system, and figuring out whether or not something is broken. That's why builds regularly get twinked to the max.


And I have to say, you don't know what you're talking about.... I've read your posts in here and you had summoning all messed up. You insist on edging things relentlessly, which started this whole thing. Yeah I can see edge in some occurances... but the point is that's supposed to be RARE and with specific cause. (EG: a mage who more often than not gets his spirits 'dissipated' and handles them poorly and sent back to their home metaplanes might be cause for alarm to spirits... and in fact, I'd probably give the mage a warning first by slapping him w/ a spirit bane negative quality for such action before actively edging... though spirit bane definately would be cause for edging)


You completely fail to understand the statistical point that Jaid is making regarding the first time a spirit is bound.
I summon spirit. Spirit resists w/ Force. I bind spirit, spirit resists w/ 2x force... total resistance dice determining net services earned. 3x Force. Any rebinding is always done at 2x force resist... I'll never get that first time discount again. (in fact, it's not uncommon to let a spirit go free on it's last service specifically so you can rebind a fresh spirit. EG: the ratio of dice is much better on services and binding materials are expensive, it's the most effective way to maximize services/binding material cost.


Another thing about remote services and unbound spirits... you lose everything once remote service is engaged (though spirit no longer counts against you at that point is the way my local GM's handle it). So you might as well get a large spirit which is only going to owe you 1 or 2 services, than a small one which will net you 3 to 5.


And finally, on spells and sustaining you don't know jack about what you're talking about.
My mage isn't astrally percieving... he casts increase wil and sustains it. Spell is active on the astral and interacts w/ astral eneties like mana barriers and wards but can't be dispelled (because of special text under dispelling which says dispeller must be on same plane).
I now astrally percieve... I am dual natured... the spell hasn't changed (though an astral mage could dispel my sustained spells now).
I now astrally project... the spell is still active on me.

I quote: "When activated, foci have an astral form and will accompany an astrally
projecting magician to which they are bound. A projecting magician
must activate any foci she wishes to take with her in advance"

Astral projection never says actively sustained spells are dropped... (and lets not forget quickened spells while we're on that since they're also technically sustained spells as well... and there's a lot of people w/ quickened spells who will call you on that one).

Even worse for your argument... my physical form still exists, and I don't need LOS to sustain... things which affect my physical form affect my astral form. And things which affect my astral form affect my physical body. (so technically it's possible to go astral inside a valkyrie module or in the presence of a medic and have them heal your physical body while you're duking it out in the astral.


Astral projection says explicitly, active foci go with your astral form when you project. The spell is still on you and active. I would like a specific rules cite here.


I'm quite open about when the rules don't go my way... you are not.

Actually, I think what Shinobi Killfist was trying to point out was that Concealment is not just a visual trick. It works against sight, hearing, smell, assessing, you name it.

Concealment might sound less powerful than Invisibility, but it actually packs quite a punch.

Also... to come back to your previous point... Spells and Critter Powers are not the same. Spells have auras, they have drain and they can be counterspelled. None of this applies to powers. They're both magical, but this doesn't mean that because something is true for Spells, it's also true for Powers. Logical extension is a tricky thing.

Having radar work against Concealment seems balanced, at first glance, and might even be a good houserule... but I don't think it's RAW.

Zormal:
I never said spirit powers were spells... but the GM started doing it as a house rule (applying counterspelling against them as well as spells). And it's been working rather well for balancing spirits and their powers vs. the rest of the party and the mages. So based on experience, I'd actually recommend it as a house rule.


And you're right... concealment is actually the far superior power now... (as invisibility now needs to beat object resistance 5! w/ SR4a).

Especially when you add in the covops autosoft, or stealth skills to the mix. As now it's an opposed test to see the runners if they're trying to be sneaky at all. And against someone w/ a 12 dice stealth pool when your perception is knocked down to 1-3 dice... no contest.

That does seem to be a good houserule. The fearbomb from a spirit can totally wreck a game IME.

Concealment isn't visual, it covers flat out Perception, which includes all senses and means of detection. It is also a Physical power, which means that it works against technological sensors. Anyone who thinks it's visual only hasn't read the text. Sorry, it's just that clear.

Also, you can't succeed a Perception test if you have no dice. The NPC would have to spend edge, which means that they'd have to be aware that they're making the check.

You don't have to be aware to spend Edge. Edge isn't a conscious decision of the player, it's completely metaphysical luck. It's a metagame decision whether to roll Edge, as it can be used to resist surprise, spot things you don't know are there... Though luck happens when the player wants it to, the actual character doesn't realize that they just "spent edge," they'd just think they got lucky.

yes, i've mentioned that. more than once, i believe.when do you choose a target? when you're activating the power. when do you not choose a target? any other time. it doesn't matter what the rules are for choosing the target, because the target has already been chosen once we're up to the question of sustaining. therefore, we're back at the point where the rules say the power can be sustained, and you need to find a rule (about sustaining this time, please) that says otherwise for specific situations.



if the spirit is spending edge on everything for no good reason, then it's time to find a new GM, because your current GM is being an ass. if the spirit actually has legitimate reason (ie you've been abusive to spirits) then that's your own fault, of course... but here's the thing: you get to choose if you're going to be abusive to spirits. if you expect to make regular use of spirits, then you just don't abuse them. it's that simple.

if only they printed the errata free of charge in some sort of logical place... like, say.... the main shadowrun website? oh wait, they do! link (you will also find the SR4A changes document there. so now you know when you complain the dead tree isn't there yet, you actually don't have a valid excuse for not knowing the most up-to-date rules. but hey, it's not as if they posted this as news right on the DSF... oh hey wait, they did that too! right up in the sticky section.


nobody is binding force 8 spirits. shadowrunners can easily make use of summoned but unbound force 8 spirits, because they are around to direct the spirit. corporate magicians can't make use of them as easily unless the mage is there. thus, there is no centralised location where mages summon spirits to be used for security responses, because that isn't useful, they must be onsite. and there is no centralised location where the binding of force 8 spirits occurs, because you're going to run out of magicians and lose all the services owed to those magicians as well.

the radar is questionable, depends on whether you consider the test to be a perception test. i personally would, but it's at least possible to to read it otherwise. pressure plates would also work (they don't detect the person, they simply detect the plate and whether or not it has moved somewhere) regardless, i think the corporations have a different definition of cheap than you do. once again, the management is looking to make themselves appear amazing by cutting expenses. implanting or otherwise issuing radar sensors to all the guards is probably done in a few, really secure facilities. but it isn't the norm. once again, i refer you to the standard security guard in the books... given it makes no sense to present us with anything other than the 'standard' security guard, i'm not seeing radar on them anywhere. they don't even have low-light on a pair of goggles, because that costs money.

this has already been provided. once again, please actually read the relevant rules material before you go calling people on what the rules material says. including, for example, actually reading the free and easily available errata and update information provided in a perfectly logical place and announced on these very forums.

i dunno. you tell me.

I will address this... YOU ARE WRONG... it is up to GM preference when and if spirits spend EDGE... in the rules... If I (or my GM) wants the spirit to spend edge for teh spirit, it happens... Case Closed and well within the rules...




I dont fail to understand the point... I just don't think it is relevant... You can always just drop the spirit summoned to summon a spirit that has greater services owed, and then Bind that spirit instead of the original... at that point, you are abusing the rules for a mechanical advantage... you should suffer any consequences that the GM chooses to levy against you, including the above mentioned EDGE expenditure...



Never argued thisz point... I would rather have a force 3-5 spirit with multiple successes than a force 8 spirit with 1... preference is not Canon... any spirit will be useful in its own way, I would gladly take my 3 force 5 spirits vs your 1 force 8 spirit any day of the week and twice on sundays... they will have a lot more utility and staying power than your 1 force 8 spirit...




Prove it... show me a rule on this and I will concede... the aura of your spell is always visible on the astral plane... just because it is visible does not mean that it can be targeted for dispelling...



I never argued about the sustaining foci (or quickening metamagic for that matter) as they allow spells to cross the astral barrier... that is why they exist... it is the only way that spells can cross the astral barrier... and foci other than Sustaining Foci also have the ability to travel across the astral barrier, I never disputed that... they are astrally active after all...



Using that logic, then I am able to disrupt your foci and ground spells through your foci into the physical realm... welcome back to SR2... Also... That Physical Spell you have affecting you...like Strength Boost or Reflex Boost... well you do not use those attributes in the Astral World, you use your mental analogs for that, and always have 3 passes in the Astral... so no effect, even if they did cross the astral barrier...




Don't need one, as you said FOCI go with your astral form (if activated, and only if activated), not spells...




Wrong, I will admit I am wrong when you throw a citation at me...

For example, You say that the Foci for Conjuration have been changed with the Errata, I will concede that (I will look at the errata), and I will have learned something... but you cannot show me a citation to the effect that Spells cross the astral barrier when all other indications to that effect indicate that they cannot...

Actually OR3 for Sensors...

Reason: Not willing to serve the summoner for whatever reason... It is a call by the GM... I have not yet ever had any problems with this rule... as I routinely summon Force 5 and 6 spirits, it is not that big of a deal... I tend to bind spirits of a slightly less power level (typically 3 to 4), but again that is just preference...



Condescension is neither wanted or appreciated... stop with the tone please... I admit that I have not looked at teh errata in a while (I also have only the original, who knew that there was a new edition v1.8 is it?)... has been rectified, though I see no real need for it as the new SR4A is almost here...



Force 8 unbound is not that big of deal for the Corps, and if you noticed in teh previous post you replied to I was talking about both the summoning and/or the binding... also, Easily is an odd statement for you to use... Shadowrunners have the same problem... But, I, the corp summoner, summon my Force 8 (or whatever spirit) when I come on duty, this continues throughout the day, on shift changes... Problem solved... what a Shadowrunner can do for no resources a Corpo can do for no resources... Easy...

[quote]the radar is questionable, depends on whether you consider the test to be a perception test. i personally would, but it's at least possible to to read it otherwise. pressure plates would also work (they don't detect the person, they simply detect the plate and whether or not it has moved somewhere) regardless, i think the corporations have a different definition of cheap than you do. once again, the management is looking to make themselves appear amazing by cutting expenses. implanting or otherwise issuing radar sensors to all the guards is probably done in a few, really secure facilities. but it isn't the norm. once again, i refer you to the standard security guard in the books... given it makes no sense to present us with anything other than the 'standard' security guard, i'm not seeing radar on them anywhere. they don't even have low-light on a pair of goggles, because that costs money.

Makes no sense to provide a challenge to the characters, Did you really say that? Wow, I am glad I do not play in your games, I like to be challenged myself... I hate the automatic "I Win" for Shadowrun... the standard security guard is perfectly fine for the low level tarrgets that you might meet as a ganger or some such, but not for your "average" shadowrunner as evidenced by the characters that are continuously posted on these forums...

you still haven't found anything that indicates you can't sustain a spell from a different plane than it was cast on. you've got something that says you can't cast a spell to a different plane, but absolutely nothing that says anything about sustaining.

also, he didn't say 3 force 5 spirits... he said 1 force 5 spirit with 3 services.

and clearly you don't understand the point. you don't punish the player for making smart choices mechanically. is the character abusing the spirit by not rebinding it? actually, as a matter of fact, the spirit didn't like being bound, and spreading out the 'burden' of being bound should be more likely to be met with approval from the spirit. now, when you bind a spirit for 5 services, it knows that it'll probably only get called once or twice and then it's service is done, and it can go back to it's own thing. the spirit that you rebind is going to get called over and over and over, for an indeterminate number of services, with no end in sight.

so yeah, your "the GM should punish the player" policy is a load of crap. it's not the GM's job to punish the players for making effective choices. if my GM had an attitude like that, i would leave, because i don't want to play in a group that thinks deliberately gimping their characters is the very definition of roleplaying, and that having a character who doesn't suck at everything they do is rollplaying.

I DO Understand the point... you just refuse to see my viewpoint is all...

And you have not found any citation that states explicitly that you can... all of the options that I have provided IMPLY that you cannot, show me one that implies that you can and we might then have a basis of discussion...

To Each his own...

I have never had any complaints about the games that I play in... constraints and all... Maybe you should try it before you condemn it... it has managed to provide all the character archtypes an adequate challenge... because, after all, where is the challenge if you can "Casually" summon Very High Force Spirits on a whim... kind of leaves everyone else out of the game, don't you think?

As for the 3 force 5 spirits, that was an example... you do get that right? I can reliably summon Force 5 spirits (even when they spend edge to resist summoning/binding) pretty much all day long (barring a catastrophic failure on my part to resist the drain, which ironically only ever happened with the Force 4 Spirit I tried summoning on multiple occassions)...... however, I would probably be ineffective summoning that single Force 8 Spirit... economy of resources (in this case, Health Boxes) indicates that the 3 Force 5 Spirits are a better deal than the 1 Force 8 Spirit...

While a valid point, when it comes to NPCs they shouldn't be edging Perception tests against the players. At least, very rarely. They don't get lucky just because the PCs show up.

alright, let's try this again:

can you sustain spells?

i am going to propose that the answer is yes, if the spell has a duration of sustained.

so the default to "can i sustain a spell if <insert scenario here>?" is yes, if the spell has a duration of sustained. let's try a few: can i sustain a spell if i stand on my head? => yes, if the spell has a duration of sustained. can i sustain a spell if i'm underwater? => yes, if the spell has a duration of sustained. and so forth.

so then, we have our general rule, that you can sustain a spell. this general rule could then be overridden by a specific rule. for example "can i sustain a spell if i am unconscious?" the answer is no, (unless the spell is quickened) because there is a specific rule that overrides the general (note: a spell can be sustained by a focus if you are unconscious, but in this case it's the focus and not you sustaining the spell).

so then, the rule i am citing is that you can sustain a spell. you have not provided any quotes that imply anything about sustaining. the quotes you have provided are about targeting. that's very nice, and they would be extremely applicable to discussions about targeting spells. but they are not relevant to discussions about sustaining spells, because sustaining a spell is different from targeting the spell. for example, i need LOS to target a spell. i don't need LOS to sustain a spell.

so then, to recap: our general answer to the question "can i sustain a spell if <insert scenario here>?" is "yes, if the spell has a duration of sustained." since there is no specific rule that overrides the general rule, we are therefore left with the answer to the question of "can i sustain a spell if the spell is on a different plane than me?" being "yes, if the spell has a duration of sustained." certainly, you couldn't cast the spell to the other plane. if the spell can be moved (ex if it is cast on an area and you want to move the area) then you can't do that from another plane, because you can't target the spell. but sustaining is not the same thing as targeting, any more than riding a bike is the same thing as building a bike.

I am now fully committed to the view that Tymeaus Jalynsfein is quite wrong on a great many things on this thread. That is all.

You yourself have provided the answer in your above quote... YOU CANNOT SUSTAIN A SPELL WHEN YOU ARE UNCONSCIOUS... when you astrally project your body goes unconscious, and your spell drops as you transition to the astral realm... one of the Implied instances that I was talking about...

Careful with the word "committed"...

As I have continuously stated, I have strong opinions, and go with them unless I can be shown proof to the contrary, as do MOST of those on Dumpshock... however, when it is pointed out, sometimes with a hammer, I will admit (the Eratta thing is an example) that I am wrong...

I tend to not call names, though I will confront you if you have contrary views if I think that I may have a point...

In this thread, I have been wrong a time or two and have admitted it, however, there is still no proof on some of the tings that I believe... I have an opinion one way, some others (Jaid in particular) has opinions the other way... unless there is proof on either side, neither of us will apparently relent... I am happy to have divergent opinions, but not when I am attacked in the process... rational discussion is acceptable, personal attacks are not... and I admit I do sometimes go a little far, and if you think that I have crossed a line with you I apologize...

There was a man hanging off a cliff.... he was offered a helping hand... instead he reached for a blade of grass.

Gee... since your consciousness leaves your body (sic, the book says it)... I wonder why the meat goes unconscious and is considered a tasty empty vessel for possesion types.

Keep grasping... though.

Also there's a lot of increase attribute effects that would be relevant to a astral mage... body (more phys track... also help resist the unconcious body resist damage), all the mental attributes (those spells aren't just physical only). Intentionally picking the pointless ones (2 of str/agi/rea I forget which) does not help your case.

indeed falconer... after all, is it the body sustaining the spell, or is it whateveritis that comprises your astral form?

given that your astral 'body' can cast and sustain spells while separate from your meatbody, but your meatbody cannot cast or sustain spells while separate from your astral body, it is quite evident that the state of the physical body is not relevant to one's ability to cast or sustain spells. in other words, the magician has not become unconscious, his consciousness has merely separated from his body.

Falconer... I pointed those particular spells out as they were the ones that give the MEAT body the boosts that were being discussed... of course the mental ones would work well, however, you should be casting them once you transition to the astral...

The book says that spells do not cross planes... A very Simple statement, with no elucidation given... I have only applied it to also mean that you cannot Sustain across planes... makes sense and is implied by several rules, including the functionality of both the sustaining Foci and the Quickening Metamagic Technique which both would allow this as you are no longer "sustaining" them... One of the many reasons to acquire such abilities or equipment in my opinion... Note, however, that the typical abilities usually applied to such abilities/equipment would be less than useful in the Astral Realm (Typically I see Increased Reflexes, Increased Reaction, Increased Body, etc.)... And I will say it again... You can cast spells in the Astral, And would have to do so if you projected in my game... what would be the issue here... you will still have the spell up and would still be suffering the same penalties... unless you of course sustained it with your handy dandy sustaining foci which you have brought along

The biggest drawback to the way that Jaid (and some others see it) is that I could screw the projecting mage in the Real world by dispelling his spells or foci, as they were enacted upon the Real world, and as such could be deactivated there as well... That is after all what is being implied here by Jaid... and there would not be a damn thing that he could do about it...

Now I know that if his body has been found, all sorts of other unpleasantness could also occur, but that was an example...

This implication I also apply to Spirits sustaining their powers, as they are treated as magic is, no targeting across planes, the only rational that might mitigate this instance that I can find is that Spirits are essentially dual natured for all intents and purposes, which could allow their abilities to cross planes... but if so, WHY must they manifest to enact their powers on an individual or team? It is this manifestation clause that I believe provides a strong implication that they cannot sustain across the barrier... again, it makes a lot of sense...

In the end, it is all about opinion and rule interpretation... which is what I have said from the beginning...I am not trying to convert you to the Dark Side here, I am just providing a different approach, one that happens to limit the abilities of an already powerful class of assistance...

EDIT... Misread the post... never mind...

Additional EDIT: Are you telling me that the spell is cast on your MIND or on your PHYSICAL BODY... because it sounds like you are agreeing with me that the body is the target of the spell not the mind... and in this case... when the mind is not there, whether you are unconscious or "just away in the astral" your body does not care... the power sustaining the spell on the body is no longer there(as good as being unconscious) and the spell fades...

NOW IF the spell is targeting the MIND, then your argument would have weight here... so which would it be?

i am not discussing the targeting of the spell. i'm disagreeing with the nonsensical statement that because your body no longer contains a consciousness, you lose the ability to sustain spells which you listed as a reason spells couldn't be sustained when you switch to astral projection (an argument which does not even remotely apply when you discuss something like a spirit switching to the astral plane, or from the astral to the physical, which would be another angle i could bring in to prove it's a lousy argument)

now then, going back to an earlier post of yours that i missed due to you posting while i was posting... do you actually read what people write, or do you just read what you would have liked them to write?

i said it makes no sense for them (ie the authors of the core book) to give us a non-standard security guard as the only security guard written in the books. as in, the security guard listed is presumably an average one, because if they're only going to give us 1 listing of security guard it's going to be the one you could *usually* expect to meet. how do you go from that to "there is no reason for another security guard to exist"?

additionally, my observation about unbound spirits patrolling facilities is that if you have an unbound force 8 spirit patrolling, it only makes sense if you have a magician capable of reliably summoning said force 8 spirit. given such magicians are *far* from a dime a dozen, it really doesn't make sense to have them anywhere. remember, this guy is probably throwing at least 11 dice against the spirit. that's a big deal in SR4(A). he's not just some random magician, and if you start throwing these guys into every facility, you're basically throwing suspension of disbelief on the ground and jumping up and down on it while laughing maniacally. if you want to have such a spirit protecting the head of a major corporation, or even someone who's in charge of a major division (for example, the head of renraku in north america or something like that) then fine. but you can't just put them everywhere. we're talking probably magic 5, skill 5, and a focus here. maybe a specialisation and a mentor spirit to boot, because he's got to be able to do it every single day, reliably. potentially even a magic 8 so it's only stun so that you aren't adding up physical damage over time as this guy is expected to summon such a spirit twice daily. we're not talking about an "average" magician here, this guy is not remotely common; he's probably a prime runner-type enemy.

now then, let's take a look at your supposed "proof" that you cannot sustain a spell(or other things) accross a planar boundary. BBB page 173, choosing the target, right? i assume this is the portion you're referring to:



now then, let's have a look at this: which part of that says simply "spells do not cross planes"? nothing. it says spells cannot be cast across planes. it says nothing about sustaining. it says nothing about the spell's effects even (for example, consider mana static: hits only one plane, changes both. additionally there are spells you cast on the physical plane that show you the astral in the digital grimoire iirc, and a spell that creates an astral barrier from the physical as well) you're not interpreting rules, you're interpreting a lack of a statement about something to mean something specific. the entire basis of your opinion is an interpretation of something that the rules *don't* say. note that this is in step 4, choosing a target. how about we go and actually look at the sustaining portion (ie step 7, ongoing effects) shall we? because call me crazy, but if i was gonna put a rule about sustaining spells in the book, it wouldn't be a kinda-sorta-almost-implied-by-lack-of-a-statement-but-not-quite-even-that crammed into the part about choosing a target, it would be mentioned in the sustaining part. perhaps, in the part which explicitly discusses what could prevent sustaining a spell... which reads:



so at best, we've got a situation of the gm could potentially decide to arbitrarily (and yes, it is arbitrary; we have nothing in 4th edition which indicates magicians cannot astrally project while sustaining a spell at the same time, it isn't even one of the examples given) force a willpower + spellcasting (2) test. that's it. that's as far as the rules give us. there's nothing about going from astral projection back to the body or vice versa. there's nothing in the astral projection portion of the rules either. you're telling me that you went and looked up the rules for this, and the best you could come up with was to ignore both of those sections (sustaining, and astral projection) entirely, and to instead go to a non-statement that wasn't even made in the section about choosing a target?

at best, you could be arguing for forcing such a test (if you want to claim you're following the rules, that is. if you want to talk house rules, well then, i've already established i wouldn't touch a game you GM with a 20 foot pole, right?). if you had even bothered actually looking for something that discusses what you're supposedly wanting to discuss, you would have come across the section about sustaining.

Street Magic p. 95

"Since Guard is a physical power, it requires the spirit
to be physical in order to activate it (though not to sustain it).
Therefore, a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would
need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so,
and both actions would only require one service (though it
might immediately go back to astral plane while sustaining
the Guard effect, depending on what other services it was performing
at the time)."

Note that you cannot measure the distance to the metaplanes. They are either very far away, or everywhere. How quickly does a spirit get from their metaplane to you? One IP?

Since the Rules don't explicitly state it, you could rule for your own game that a spirit on the metaplane is more then the magic X 100 meters away, and thus on Remote Service. However, that breaks other things like the spirit waiting after summoning in the astral green room metaplane.

The rules also are explicit about spells not being able to be cast across planes. However, there is nothing stated anywhere about spells immediately breaking as soon as astral projection occurs. You can choose to play that way, but until you do find that rule and can cite it to me, I'm not going to. In fact, the little bit that says

"When activated, foci have an astral form and will accompany an astrally
projecting magician to which they are bound. A projecting magician
must activate any foci she wishes to take with her in advance (though
she can deactivate them at any time)."

heavily implies that the activated spell on a foci will in fact carry over, consider the case of a sustaining Foci that has a physical spell in it. (though somewhat questionable since it may not work on the astral plane, whether or not it is useful has little bearing on whether or not it is allowed.)

Targeting has literally nothing to do with sustaining. No targeting is required to sustain a spell. You don't have to see who/what you're sustaining a spell on, you don't have to touch it, you don't have to perform any targeting geasa, and so on. So, bringing up the "you can't target across planes" rule is therefor completely irrelevant.

Furthermore, there are examples in the rules of spells and powers being sustained across planes (as DireRadiant points out above). Seriously, TJ, just shut up and sit down. You're only embarrassing yourself.

If you don't agree with a poster's points, tell them and move on. No need to take it down to a personal level.