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Larme
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 12 2009, 09:36 AM) *
Things like "four Dryads and a Fomori" being thrown together as someone's professional urban criminal dream team are why the metaracial subtypes make me shudder. For most players, they've got nothing to do with role playing opportunities, exploring new regions of the background material, or appreciating and enjoying the background material as presented enough to worry about the stated and repeated rarity of those subtypes -- they're all about scraping together that extra +1 die here and there. Ungh.


Ooh, I've got it! Pixie mage, naga physad, Xapari-Thepe streetsam, Vampire actuary, Nartaki chef. Best team evar! The nartaki can quad-wield utensils and roll wicked bad on on his sammich making rolls! And what team goes into battle without their actuary? biggrin.gif
Mx
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 12 2009, 05:36 PM) *
Things like "four Dryads and a Fomori" being thrown together as someone's professional urban criminal dream team are why the metaracial subtypes make me shudder. For most players, they've got nothing to do with role playing opportunities, exploring new regions of the background material, or appreciating and enjoying the background material as presented enough to worry about the stated and repeated rarity of those subtypes -- they're all about scraping together that extra +1 die here and there. Ungh.

I admit that my team was pretty power/meta-gamey in racial choises, butthe one Dryad character i have actually made, my Sasha was changed to Dryad instead of vanilla Elf the moment i read the Symbiosis negati quality in the book as that fits and partly explains few thinks in her backround.
Knight Saber
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jun 11 2009, 09:45 PM) *
Fair call.

I am not a fan of the "corporations would never retaliate" mentality. I'm of the view yes they could (and may well do so - for too many reasons I won't go into). If, for no other reason, to act as a strong deterrent to other runners or at least the wider world, creating the perception that "nothing escapes THIS company". Certainly not in all cases but there are many cases I can say yes they would.

As for the no evidence, it depends. I weigh it up based on the multiple factors - the type of run, the opposition and their resourcing, reasons for reprisal (and are they strong enough to warrant a response), the level of response, etc.

A bunch of mobsters won't have a the forensics skills necessary to track down runners for blowing up a gambling den based on a hair sample (maaaybe if they have magicians on hand). NeoNet OTOH will have teams of these guys pouring through their lab that has been ransacked of the latest prototype and corrupted the data, setting back the company 2 years and millions of dollars in wasted research.

- J.


The value of forensics is a bit overrated for Shadowrunners... the whole point of their existence is that they aren't in the system at all, they don't exist legally. "SINner" in both normal and criminal and "Records On File" are both disadvantages, and ones that most runners don't have. You aren't going to be able to track them down in the public databases with a hair or blood sample. They buy their guns through illegal sources or with fake licenses and can change fake SINs with a minimum of effort... cosmetic surgery to change appearance is easy enough to do as well.

Furthermore, it doesn't solve the problem that the runners caused... it wasn't their idea do break into an R&D facility and steal a prototype or extract a researcher, it was some other corporation who set it up. The best course of action for a company would be to hire those same runners to do a run on the company that wronged them, since they've clearly demonstrated their skills.
Adarael
That's very true. Forensics is only useful for tracking SINless runners in terms of determining if they are repeat offenders, or if they have a habit of hitting the same target. Or things like that. It's not like having a sinless guy's prints on file is gonna tell you anything about that guy unless he aquires a criminal sin at some point.
DWC
QUOTE (Adarael @ Jun 12 2009, 02:51 PM) *
That's very true. Forensics is only useful for tracking SINless runners in terms of determining if they are repeat offenders, or if they have a habit of hitting the same target. Or things like that. It's not like having a sinless guy's prints on file is gonna tell you anything about that guy unless he aquires a criminal sin at some point.


It gets better. If you've got a set of fingerprints, two hairs, and a spot of blood and they don't match anyone in the system, you can just issue them a SIN and name them John Doe. Essentially, you can issue someone a criminal SIN (albiet with incomplete biometrics) without even catching them or charging them for the crimes you're investigating since not having a SIN is a crime.
Adarael
Well, that's not a SIN so much as a database entry. It can't be a SIN unless it tracks your purchase patterns, medical history, shit like that. I mean, it would be a SIN in the database, but if data is only added when Corporation X creates it or when you drop blood on something, it's essentially a dead record.
DWC
QUOTE (Adarael @ Jun 12 2009, 01:56 PM) *
Well, that's not a SIN so much as a database entry. It can't be a SIN unless it tracks your purchase patterns, medical history, shit like that. I mean, it would be a SIN in the database, but if data is only added when Corporation X creates it or when you drop blood on something, it's essentially a dead record.


A criminal SIN doesn't have any purchasing or medical history when it gets issued. It just has the biometrics collected, the personal data they confirmed, and the stuff you did to earn yourself a criminal SIN. It's a mechanism law enforcement uses to keep track of potential repeat offenders. There's nothing more to a SIN than a series of database entries. A proper "issued at birth" SIN will have a complete medical record, purchasing history, tax records, employment history, credit history, and so on and so forth but that's a function of them living their life and using one SIN all the time, not a function of the SIN itself.
Adarael
Not when it's issued, but thereafter, it's your SIN for daily life. If a normal citizen is convicted of a crime, I would imagine they'd just flag the SIN with a criminal flag. I'm just saying that a criminal SIN assigned to a John Doe with fingerprints and DNA data isn't that much more threatening in 2070 than it is now. They don't know anything about you other than that data, and have no means to collect more unless they have more to go on.
DWC
They don't know anything else about you until they notice that the fingerprints match those found in three similar crimes. Then they get an image from the camera of a security guard's smartlink that tells them how tall you are. Then they match everything to the biometrics of what they determine is the fake SIN you've been using the last few weeks.

Suddenly, everything attached to that fake SIN gets attached to the real criminal SIN that they've attached to you. You've now got a criminal SIN, complete with a personal history (full of fabricated information), a purchasing history (mostly fake, but supplemented with the real data from using the fake SIN for a few weeks), and a fake medical history. A lot of the details are wrong, but now you're in the system, and the next LS camera drone you walk in front of immediately knows who you are, and what you've done.

Edit: Too much Big Brother does make Shadowrun lame.
Adarael
So you're saying you keep your REAL fingerprints on a fake sin? That seems like a stupendously bad idea, unless you're doing some kind of deep-infiltration job where a company has hired you, in which case you should have changed those prints anyway.

If you have my DNA and fingerprints - god knows why I wasn't wearing gloves, but ok - and my height and a general appearance...

Great. You know I'm about six foot to six foot four, white, and have brown hair, and operate in the Seattle area. How many people in Seattle match those? At a guess, probably about 30,000.

Unless they get more data, they don't have jack or shit to tag me to my fake sin. Even if they did, what if I have more than one fake sin?

On a personal level, I'm of the opinion that 'the system', such as it is, is set up so that people won't care if your SIN checks out. How many people actually check the face on your work ID badge outside of high-security areas? As long as the computer says you're good to go, you're generally good to go. It's analagous to how many people check what you sign on your bill vs what's on your credit card's back end. It happens once every blue moon, but no more often.
DWC
If your fake SIN has fake biometrics that don't match your real ones, you can't actually use it to do anything useful. If you try to get on the subway and the ultrawideband RADAR system's scan of your teeth doesn't match the listed dental record, it calls Lone Star or, at the very least, doesn't let you on the train. What do you do when someone asks you to supply a fingerprint scan to check into a hotel, or get on a plane, or walk into a bank, or buy something at a legit retailer?

Either the SINs biometrics need to be real, or you need to be able to alter your biometrics to match the fake ones. The rules for forging SINs in Unwired specifically mentions that part of burning a fake SIN that you no longer want to use is removing the biometrics so that no one else can get their hands on copies of yours.

And there might be 300,000 people who fit that general description, but the system can verify where 299,500 of them were at the exact moment that the picture was taken, because they have a SIN that they're broadcasting from their easily trackable commlink, and leave an easy to follow datatrail.

They won't get it immediately, but over time, a pattern gets built, and as that pattern gets built, it all gets tied to a criminal SIN. Eventually, the pattern hits critical mass, and it gets matched to a fake, and then you're done. I like to ignore that level of surveillance because it makes the game unplayable, but the technology supports it.

Edit:
Right now, most of the world has gotten complacent about identification security. No one flips your credit card over to check that the signature matches. Bank authorization systems for debit cards don't require a PIN for transactions under a certain value because it's a pain in the ass to type in your PIN to buy a cup of coffee.

But when the guy behind the counter making your coffee has a camera in the bill of his Starbucks visor tied to the local nexus that takes a picture of your face and runs a match versus your SIN as he's taking your order, the security comes right back.
Adarael
See, this is the fundamental area we disagree. In the SR4 books, it never indicates the subway scans your teeth. It also never indicates you should be providing basic biometric data for daily stuff like that, or even for checking into a hotel. That's how I envision the system checking against your fake SIN: the reason it rolls is because your biometrics do NOT exactly match the SIN's. The more effective the forged SIN with stolen biometrics (or made up ones), the harder it is for the scanner to spot all is not as it seems. If you're actually using YOUR biometric data on a SIN, things shouldn't even get to test unless they're checking your purchase history or whatnot, because there ISN'T anything amiss.

Additionally, how will the system verify where those 299,500 people are? The purchase history tracking supports point-to-point location, but why would Ares indicate where in Complex X you were at 2:15pm if MCT wants to know? Node-to-node tracking and triangulation is not only processor-intensive, but generally shouldn't be saved because it takes up a ton of storage space - while said storage space isn't tracked within the rules, I think tracking position, speed, and time for tens of thousands of people is a bit much. Evidence for this is Los Angeles' ACPS - it's worth distinctly mentioning, which means other cities generally do NOT have this level of tracking. Or what if they're at home? Or at work, in a wifi-inhibiting room like most office buildings will be?

Which brings me to another point: there will be times when corporations WILL want to do all of this, and will want all this shit recorded. But the theme of SIN information in SR4 definitely seems to be that there is SUCH a density of information about people that it is overwhelming, and there aren't enough people to accurately track it. It's not like a Scanner Darkly where one in ten people is a Scanner. It's like the UK is now, where there's 1 camera for every 14 people, yet only 3% of all crimes are aided by the CCTV system, and it doesn't seem to have helped that much at all. Corporations are not beholden, or even encouraged to share truthful SIN data about their employees with each other. Anti-spam software and hidden mode go a long way toward spoofing what you were doing at a given time, because you don't want to be physically tracked by spyware and targetted advertising.

I think this is primarily a different way of seeing the information presented in the base books.
Apathy
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 12 2009, 02:11 AM) *
I don't get it. Corporations are about the bottom line. How is the bottom line helped by retaliation?

Many people in the US believe that the death penalty is a deterent to serious crimes.* Those same people would say that building a fierce scary rep for your corp decreases the number of runs against you.

You could even argue that punishing shadowrunners is more likely to deter runs than punishing criminals would be to deter standard crimes, because there's an assumption that most runs would be coolly evaluated on a cost/benifit scale (as opposed to crimes in general, which are often committed on impulse).

If you want to assume that all runners are rational, then the added risk of retaliation increases the cost of any run against that corp. So now the street level team that would have cost 4,000 nuyen.gif now won't do it for less than 10,000 nuyen.gif, the mid-level team that would have cost 15,000 nuyen.gif now costs 40,000, and the elite team which would have cost 50,000 nuyen.gif now won't touch it for less than 100,000 nuyen.gif or refuse to touch it at all because they no longer need to take jobs that they don't want. In any case, the hiring johnson has a set buget available for his mission, and if the costs of the runners go up it may no longer be a good return on investment.

*Not intended to imply any personal position either for or against capital punishment. There's reasonable arguments for both sides. And getting sidetracked on this wouldn't do anything useful for the thread.
Mx
QUOTE (Apathy @ Jun 12 2009, 11:31 PM) *
building a fierce scary rep for your corp decreases the number of runs against you.

That what Aztechnology does, hasn't helped them that much.
Larme
QUOTE (Knight Saber @ Jun 12 2009, 01:42 PM) *
The value of forensics is a bit overrated for Shadowrunners... the whole point of their existence is that they aren't in the system at all, they don't exist legally. "SINner" in both normal and criminal and "Records On File" are both disadvantages, and ones that most runners don't have. You aren't going to be able to track them down in the public databases with a hair or blood sample. They buy their guns through illegal sources or with fake licenses and can change fake SINs with a minimum of effort... cosmetic surgery to change appearance is easy enough to do as well.

Furthermore, it doesn't solve the problem that the runners caused... it wasn't their idea do break into an R&D facility and steal a prototype or extract a researcher, it was some other corporation who set it up. The best course of action for a company would be to hire those same runners to do a run on the company that wronged them, since they've clearly demonstrated their skills.


Hehe, yeah I forgot about that. You leave your DNA behind, they analyze it, and they figure out who done it! "Sir, we have the perpetrator's DNA mapped!" "Good, show me the bastard who did this." A blank outline of a person, with a question mark over the face, appears on the holoscreen. Beneath the image are printed the suspect's name: "Jane Doe #58696."
Typhon
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 12 2009, 03:49 PM) *
Hehe, yeah I forgot about that. You leave your DNA behind, they analyze it, and they figure out who done it! "Sir, we have the perpetrator's DNA mapped!" "Good, show me the bastard who did this." A blank outline of a person, with a question mark over the face, appears on the holoscreen. Beneath the image are printed the suspect's name: "Jane Doe #58696."



Hehe, if this was the case, you know every hacker and his brother would be breaking into these data bases and spoofing new images into the IDs for giggles.

"Show me the bastard who did this!" A crudely doctored image of a drop bear shooting lasers out of his eyes and setting a building on fire appears on the holoscreen. Beneath the picture the name reads :"I wuz in ur base!" or "I can haz paydata now?"
Apathy
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 12 2009, 03:47 PM) *
That what Aztechnology does, hasn't helped them that much.

How can we really say that? How do you know that it wouldn't be even worse for them if they didn't have a scary rep? Trying to prove the effectiveness of a policy of a fictional corporation in an role playing game is going to be at least as nebulous as guaging the effectiveness of real-life policies, and we're still arguing about whether trickle-down economics or supply-side economics works better after decades of analysis. I could always say "Yeah, but if no one was afraid of them, there'd be twice as many shadowruns to uncover the secret recipes for their stuffer shack soy-slurpees..."
Larme
QUOTE (Apathy @ Jun 12 2009, 05:17 PM) *
How can we really say that? How do you know that it wouldn't be even worse for them if they didn't have a scary rep? Trying to prove the effectiveness of a policy of a fictional corporation in an role playing game is going to be at least as nebulous as guaging the effectiveness of real-life policies, and we're still arguing about whether trickle-down economics or supply-side economics works better after decades of analysis. I could always say "Yeah, but if no one was afraid of them, there'd be twice as many shadowruns to uncover the secret recipes for their stuffer shack soy-slurpees..."


Well, no matter your take on the fluff, it's one of those handwaving issues. Runners are NOT typically dragged away with hoods over their heads every time they do a job slightly imperfectly. Otherwise Shadowrunning wouldn't be such a vibrant industry. However you explain it, Shadowrunning is a viable thing to do, not automatic suicide.
DWC
QUOTE (Adarael @ Jun 12 2009, 04:27 PM) *
See, this is the fundamental area we disagree. In the SR4 books, it never indicates the subway scans your teeth. It also never indicates you should be providing basic biometric data for daily stuff like that, or even for checking into a hotel. That's how I envision the system checking against your fake SIN: the reason it rolls is because your biometrics do NOT exactly match the SIN's. The more effective the forged SIN with stolen biometrics (or made up ones), the harder it is for the scanner to spot all is not as it seems. If you're actually using YOUR biometric data on a SIN, things shouldn't even get to test unless they're checking your purchase history or whatnot, because there ISN'T anything amiss.

Additionally, how will the system verify where those 299,500 people are? The purchase history tracking supports point-to-point location, but why would Ares indicate where in Complex X you were at 2:15pm if MCT wants to know? Node-to-node tracking and triangulation is not only processor-intensive, but generally shouldn't be saved because it takes up a ton of storage space - while said storage space isn't tracked within the rules, I think tracking position, speed, and time for tens of thousands of people is a bit much. Evidence for this is Los Angeles' ACPS - it's worth distinctly mentioning, which means other cities generally do NOT have this level of tracking. Or what if they're at home? Or at work, in a wifi-inhibiting room like most office buildings will be?

Which brings me to another point: there will be times when corporations WILL want to do all of this, and will want all this shit recorded. But the theme of SIN information in SR4 definitely seems to be that there is SUCH a density of information about people that it is overwhelming, and there aren't enough people to accurately track it. It's not like a Scanner Darkly where one in ten people is a Scanner. It's like the UK is now, where there's 1 camera for every 14 people, yet only 3% of all crimes are aided by the CCTV system, and it doesn't seem to have helped that much at all. Corporations are not beholden, or even encouraged to share truthful SIN data about their employees with each other. Anti-spam software and hidden mode go a long way toward spoofing what you were doing at a given time, because you don't want to be physically tracked by spyware and targetted advertising.

I think this is primarily a different way of seeing the information presented in the base books.


Extraterritoriality really does throw a monkey wrench into the whole system. Hadn't considered that angle. That really does put a damper on things. The fighting among the megas does create a great place for people to hide.
The Jake
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 12 2009, 07:11 AM) *
In the end, the fluff states that Shadowrunning is the coin of the realm. If Shadowrunners were the target of corporate execution squads just because their face was seen or they left an eyelash, that wouldn't be the case. The fluff cannot support truly venegeful corporations. There is obviously some measure of retaliation, but it is not a given, it is situational.


If you read what I wrote very carefully, I think you'll find that is exactly what I said.

- J.
Red-ROM
Lets not forget this is a game. we want it to be fun. I make a gun bunnie because I want to shoot things. I have 6 shadowrun books, and 80% of the text is dedicated to dealing or recieving damage. also, in my experience, things always seem to go horribly wrong (or they do if you want it to be excitning). you need a killing machine when the drones are beat up and out of ammo, and you're trying to collect from a double crossing johnson. Why make everything so sneaky and bland in a system that has panther cannons and cybertails? this is an 80's dystopian future. Big brother, lawless corporations, savage concrete jungles. its supposed to be a mash of every action and fantasy flick worth watching. turn on any movie that people on here have recomended as a "shadowrun" movie, and see if someone gets shot, or has a distinct style. in the words of amy pohler-

really? no street sam? really?
Traul
QUOTE (DWC @ Jun 12 2009, 08:54 PM) *
It gets better. If you've got a set of fingerprints, two hairs, and a spot of blood and they don't match anyone in the system, you can just issue them a SIN and name them John Doe. Essentially, you can issue someone a criminal SIN (albiet with incomplete biometrics) without even catching them or charging them for the crimes you're investigating since not having a SIN is a crime.


It cannot work like that: how do you know whether all the samples belong to the same person or not?
Angelone
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 13 2009, 05:45 AM) *
I cannot work like that: how do you know whether all the samples belond to the same person or not?

You don't that's another thing street sams are good at making sure there's enough carnage to make csi a pita.

On a more serious note sure drones and those robots are tough and shiny and such, but they can be taken over, emp'd, or inhibited. While guy/girl with gun can work perfectly well. There are situations where the drone is a better choice. Doesn't make one or the other useless. Right tool for the job and all that. You wouldn't try to surf on an ironing board or iron on a surf board. It's pretty much the same thing.

Traul you do csi work?
Traul
No I don't: sorry for the typo embarrassed.gif
The Jake
QUOTE (Knight Saber @ Jun 12 2009, 07:42 PM) *
The value of forensics is a bit overrated for Shadowrunners... the whole point of their existence is that they aren't in the system at all, they don't exist legally. "SINner" in both normal and criminal and "Records On File" are both disadvantages, and ones that most runners don't have. You aren't going to be able to track them down in the public databases with a hair or blood sample. They buy their guns through illegal sources or with fake licenses and can change fake SINs with a minimum of effort... cosmetic surgery to change appearance is easy enough to do as well.


I was about to launch into a rant about how magicians can track based on ritual samples, but I've only just noticed this seems to have been abolished in SR4 (or if I have missed it, someone please provide me with a page reference). If nothing else, forensics can help build a pattern on a SINless person on the premises and use blood, hair, fingerprints, etc, to build a profile and do a forensic reconstruction of the events. From that they could piece together an MO, genetic profile of the people involved, astral signatures, etc.

QUOTE
Furthermore, it doesn't solve the problem that the runners caused... it wasn't their idea do break into an R&D facility and steal a prototype or extract a researcher, it was some other corporation who set it up. The best course of action for a company would be to hire those same runners to do a run on the company that wronged them, since they've clearly demonstrated their skills.


No but it comes back to what I said earlier: if the runners stole something of significant value it stands to reason that their mark may want it back and may take extraordinary actions to do so. Certainly not in all cases but in some situations for sure.

- J.

Jaid
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jun 13 2009, 10:25 PM) *
I was about to launch into a rant about how magicians can track based on ritual samples, but I've only just noticed this seems to have been abolished in SR4 (or if I have missed it, someone please provide me with a page reference). If nothing else, forensics can help build a pattern on a SINless person on the premises and use blood, hair, fingerprints, etc, to build a profile and do a forensic reconstruction of the events. From that they could piece together an MO, genetic profile of the people involved, astral signatures, etc.
still around but only in street magic iirc. requires a metamagic now though i think.



QUOTE
No but it comes back to what I said earlier: if the runners stole something of significant value it stands to reason that their mark may want it back and may take extraordinary actions to do so. Certainly not in all cases but in some situations for sure.

- J.

perhaps, but why should the corp assume that the runners still have whateveritis? certainly, pursuit is likely. and absolutely, if the runners can't shake the corp pursuit they'll have problems. but once they do, they hand it off to their mr J and now there's no real point in going after them anymore. you can probably find out what Mr J they were working for using much cheaper routes (after all, you didn't think that renraku doesn't have contacts of it's own, did you?) and not risk a major PR disaster for their retaliation to boot.
Larme
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 13 2009, 10:08 PM) *
still around but only in street magic iirc. requires a metamagic now though i think.


Biological samples now degrade within hours as far as material links go. Your hair, skin, blood, or whatever loses your essence pretty fast, it's no longer the instant auto death kill that leaving biological evidence behind used to be. What they need to establish a material link that won't degrade immediately is one of your treasured possessions, which isn't all that easy for them to get. Or so I recall, at least wink.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Larme @ Jun 14 2009, 12:52 AM) *
Biological samples now degrade within hours as far as material links go. Your hair, skin, blood, or whatever loses your essence pretty fast, it's no longer the instant auto death kill that leaving biological evidence behind used to be. What they need to establish a material link that won't degrade immediately is one of your treasured possessions, which isn't all that easy for them to get. Or so I recall, at least wink.gif

with the metamagic, they can do it with a picture.

checking back, you don't need the metamagic for material links, and with proper (non-chemical) preservation techniques the sample can be useful for quite some time.

a treasured posession is better than a non-treasured (both require the metamagic, but the treasured possession gives you a better dice pool) but both can work, as can an object that was merely handled by the target recently. and, as i said, even a picture or a doll can be used with that same metamagic.
The Jake
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 14 2009, 04:08 AM) *
still around but only in street magic iirc. requires a metamagic now though i think.


Yeah I think its Sympathetic Ritual or something.

QUOTE
perhaps, but why should the corp assume that the runners still have whateveritis? certainly, pursuit is likely. and absolutely, if the runners can't shake the corp pursuit they'll have problems. but once they do, they hand it off to their mr J and now there's no real point in going after them anymore. you can probably find out what Mr J they were working for using much cheaper routes (after all, you didn't think that renraku doesn't have contacts of it's own, did you?) and not risk a major PR disaster for their retaliation to boot.


Sure, there is that element. When I say the corp will "go after the runners" - I mean to the extent of retrieving prototype of XYZ widget, not for the purpose of retaliation against the individuals involved.

Imagine this -
Runners steal something so valuable, that Renraku cannot write it off. Let's say they've found a revolutionary encryption algorithm that cannot be cracked by current conventional technology (for argument's sake). Let's further assume this is the only copy, years of effort, millions of nuyen in research, etc. Maybe runners stole the backup tapes, copied research data and tampered the existing data enough to screw up the researchers but not enough for people to notice for awhile.

Something has to be done. So some big wig realises his career is on the line if this isn't solved. There is a team internally he can call on, but it costs several hundred thousand nuyen just to page them. Then from when the investigation starts, that bill goes up. Astronomically. And it gets taken directly out of his cost centre and the investigation gets oversight from the Board. All his security, business practises, etc, will come under review. It will be a painful process for all involved -and he knows it. But he doesn't have a choice. He hits the button. In come the Renraku 'Retrieval Specialists'.

These guys would have access to ritual sorcery, metamagics, bleeding edge forensics, psych profiling, etc, to be able to piece together exactly how the job was pulled. They then do research into what teams possess those skillsets, use that MO, who would be interested (and more importantly able to fund) that job, etc. They then feed that information to teams of corporate Johnsons and fixers to scour the shadows for any hint or sign of people interested in that data and teams with those skills. The Retrieval Specialists then review the evidence, begin the process of elimination, focusing on the highest probable matches, using expert systems to aid their work.

These Retrieval Specialists then call in the Red Samurai to start kicking in doors and shaking down people for dirt. God forbid the PCs left one piece of hair, skin or blood at the scene and it does not match to a valid SIN, you can bet your ass ritual sorcery would be used to find them.

Now, the real question:
Would these guys retrieve the data? Maybe. Success rate I'm guessing would still be pretty low, but given that they are only called when its worthwhile, from a risk perspective it is probably worth it.

Would they care about the runners? Only to the extent of getting what they need.

- J.
LynGrey
What I haven't seen is the self proclaimed code most sammi's take. Most Sammis are Street Sams cause of its a modern day Sam, which mean they have a type of code of honor they follow. Who eles would selflessly hold the guards back while everybody get in the get away car, who else would you get to go first into that room of guards? I mean yes your mage can cut a man in half with his healing hands, a rigger/hacke can shoot his rifle as good as the Sammi, BUT something i've noticed is they don't have that code about them.

You can Quote me on this: "Buying all the 'ware, add-ons, being up to date weapons and blades doesn't make you Street Samuarai.... being a complete bad ass does."

Either way, the Steet Sam has evolved into seperate specialities lateley: Bullet Depository, Gun Bunny, Demo expert, and what not. I'm a personal fan of the Bullet Depository wink.gif But a true Sam is one that can do the Killing and keep Ticking... he gets shot..so what, he winces and the adrenlin pump kicks into till he gets to the nearist street patch joint.
Dumori
Remember that if it worth that much the Corp might just try to one up the other Corp. Out pay the runners to give it back. Of corse some corps/johnsons might play evil and force them to do another job as well but othering more is likely the best bet to get some thing back.
counterveil
QUOTE (DWC @ Jun 12 2009, 11:59 PM) *
Extraterritoriality really does throw a monkey wrench into the whole system. Hadn't considered that angle. That really does put a damper on things. The fighting among the megas does create a great place for people to hide.


This, for me, is one of the primary reasons that corps don't (and can't, realistically), go directly after runners based solely on forensic evidence. I really agree with Adarael here. This is Shadowrun, where the corps are at each others' throats and it's very unlikely they would share information about perpetrators with each other (and with Lone Star, for that matter). Surely, there are bits and pieces of evidence at various corporate databases that reveal a little about a given 'runner, but it's not this massive worldwide searchable database that every corp has access to. If that were the case, I would just play Paranoia and put my SR books down.

Also, very much on the same page with Larme. It's not generally cost-effective to go after the 'runners for pride and/or vengeance. The times when corps go directly after runners is when they are a vital piece of the information pie that a corp needs to get its budget back in the black.
Larme
Good point counterveil. It's really a prisoner's dilemma for the corps. If they all worked together, shared information with each other and the cops, they'd be able to try and stamp out shadowrunning as a business. However, in order for that to work, they'd all have to trust each other. If one corp withholds information or provides misleading information, they'll simply put those shadowrunners into their own secret "do not allow on premises" list, and let those runners run wild all over the other corps. Because they can't possibly trust each other, they can't possibly work together. Any corp that tries collaboration is going to be taken advantage of at the first possible opportunity...

And let's not forget, the cops are rival corps too! Many megas have their own private security contractors, and would love to see the Star or Knight Errant go down by failing to catch criminals. Report to the cops? More like leak information about the crimes to the public without giving the cops one shred of useful evidence! Either that, or cover it all up, because you don't want to show weakness in front of the other corps by having it known that you were successfully hit.
The Jake
I don't think Corps would share their intel like that at all.

I do see the split argument on fake SINs however.

It comes down to this:
Either the data on the false SIN is completely fabricated or duplicated from someone else (i.e. not yours) and upon close inspection it will not stand up to snuff - OR the fake SIN does contain your real data, in which case it will stand up to scrutiny, however it does mean there is a risk someone will get your data and could use it to pwn you (in one way or another).

In the digital world, there is no other way around it I'm afraid. Shy of refusing to get a SIN (fake or otherwise) at all. And we all know how well that goes in 2070...

- J.
Glyph
I have always (as far as I can recall) seen the corps like that - they will make some effort to track down people, sure, but mostly, it's part of business. The one thing that can change this is if the PCs cause truly massive damage. Shooting some guards on the way out with a valuable prototype is one thing, but blowing up buildings or going on a massacre is another thing. That is one of the few ways that the runners can bring the full wrath of a corporation down upon themselves, because the corporation can't let it slide.

Not that there aren't other ways - some corporations, such as Saeder-Krupp and Aztechnology, take it nearly as personally as the Yaks would. And sometimes an individual within a corporation can get pissed that their buddy was killed, their life's work was destroyed, etc. Even a security grunt with enough spare time can be a nuisance to the runners, but a mid-level manager or the like can make the PCs' lives miserable, at least until his waste of company resources catches up to him.
toturi
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jun 15 2009, 03:08 PM) *
I don't think Corps would share their intel like that at all.

I do see the split argument on fake SINs however.

It comes down to this:
Either the data on the false SIN is completely fabricated or duplicated from someone else (i.e. not yours) and upon close inspection it will not stand up to snuff - OR the fake SIN does contain your real data, in which case it will stand up to scrutiny, however it does mean there is a risk someone will get your data and could use it to pwn you (in one way or another).

In the digital world, there is no other way around it I'm afraid. Shy of refusing to get a SIN (fake or otherwise) at all. And we all know how well that goes in 2070...

- J.

Or that the reason why fake SINs are so damn tough to fabricate and maintain is that it has one set of erronous data when someone is tracing you and it has your set that is used when the SIN is being verified.
The Jake
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 15 2009, 08:38 AM) *
Or that the reason why fake SINs are so damn tough to fabricate and maintain is that it has one set of erronous data when someone is tracing you and it has your set that is used when the SIN is being verified.


How do you falsify DNA or fingerprints?

Short answer: not easily...
Long answer: Yes there is cyberware as well as tools to allow mundanes to forge fingerprints. DNA alteration is still in the realms of cyber only last I checked however. If the DNA sample taken from you does not match the SIN, you are in trouble. Obviously this wouldn't be needed in most uses of a fake SIN but it would be at border crossings, possibly when pulled up by Lone Star on grounds of an offence (or when you're arrested), etc.

Bottom line, a fake SIN with completely falsified data is fine if you want to walk down the street, go to StufferShack, buya Nuke-It-Burger and soyacaf and watch a sim. It's not sufficient if you want to walk into an airport where you and your ID will undergo rigorous checks and your DNA doesn't match your SIN. This goes double if you are an un-Masked magician, have cyberware or carry guns (better make sure you have good permits).

It has been well established that all airports do a decent level of verification (the Aztlan Sourcebook had VERY strict entry requirements). By 2070 I don't see why these wouldn't be standard for most, if not all countries. I'm assuming the process would be as quick as it is in Gattica - submit a finger for a blood sample as well as fingerprint analysis, plug in your credstick which holds the SIN and check in your luggage. Questionable items will be checked against your ID to ensure you have valid permits (which may or may not be sufficient for customs officials).

- J.
toturi
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jun 15 2009, 04:01 PM) *
How do you falsify DNA or fingerprints?

Short answer: not easily...
Long answer: Yes there is cyberware as well as tools to allow mundanes to forge fingerprints. DNA alteration is still in the realms of cyber only last I checked however. If the DNA sample taken from you does not match the SIN, you are in trouble. Obviously this wouldn't be needed in most uses of a fake SIN but it would be at border crossings, possibly when pulled up by Lone Star on grounds of an offence (or when you're arrested), etc.

Bottom line, a fake SIN with completely falsified data is fine if you want to walk down the street, go to StufferShack, buya Nuke-It-Burger and soyacaf and watch a sim. It's not sufficient if you want to walk into an airport where you and your ID will undergo rigorous checks and your DNA doesn't match your SIN. This goes double if you are an un-Masked magician, have cyberware or carry guns (better make sure you have good permits).

It has been well established that all airports do a decent level of verification (the Aztlan Sourcebook had VERY strict entry requirements). By 2070 I don't see why these wouldn't be standard for most, if not all countries. I'm assuming the process would be as quick as it is in Gattica - submit a finger for a blood sample as well as fingerprint analysis, plug in your credstick which holds the SIN and check in your luggage. Questionable items will be checked against your ID to ensure you have valid permits (which may or may not be sufficient for customs officials).

- J.
Which is why when it is being verified as you, the DNA matches. When the SIN is being queried for your DNA it doesn't. In essense, when it is necessary to verify your SIN, the biometric data matches you. When it is not, it doesn't.

I am not saying that it has to be this way. I am simply speculating that it might be.
Bob Lord of Evil
For the OP topic,

I like the view that Mike Mulvihill gave me once. He envisioned SR as a futuristic version of Mission Impossible. You have one character that tends to be ever present but a pool of floaters that can be brought in for mission specific positions, think of them as guest stars for that episode. Tailoring the team for the mission seems to make a lot of sense to me. Every player has a small pool of very tightly specialized characters that do a few things very well and are brought in as needed.

If you need fire support there is nothing wrong with employing drones, far from it. As players though, I would be concerned about using the same one-trick pony too many times. At some point the GM is going to bring in a counter-measure and suddenly the team is going to be neck deep in the drek.

The only reason that I have a corp make an effort to track runners down is if there is some manner of financial upside to doing so. Such as the runner's have data that the corp doesn't want to see the light of day, that they came into possession of material that is valuable. I always do a cost to profit analysis to determine what sort of effort the corp would make. If the item is worth 10 million nuyen.gif nuyen , I could see the corp putting 500,000 nuyen.gif of assests in play. Even then, how much exposure is the corp risking?

Pure revenge? While there might be individuals within a corp that have an axe to grind at some point they are going to be held accountable for their expense accounts. If you are a suit, your job security is not at risk, and all that happened is that you lost some face and your rep got dinged how much are you going to risk for payback? What happens if your higher ups find out about it?

The Jake
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 15 2009, 02:22 PM) *
Which is why when it is being verified as you, the DNA matches. When the SIN is being queried for your DNA it doesn't. In essense, when it is necessary to verify your SIN, the biometric data matches you. When it is not, it doesn't.

I am not saying that it has to be this way. I am simply speculating that it might be.


I think I get what you are saying.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that a hacker/ID forger is sitting behind the scenes and monitoring when the SIN is used and adjusts the data to match when it is being searched (?).

That is not how fake SINs are processed. It is a one-way encoding. This is well established by RAW because of the number of systems that must be compromised in order to lay down the necessary data to construct a SIN that appears valid for all intents and purposes.

DWH and I are on the same page in this regard. Because it is a one way encoding, the problem therein is that a DNA check is a snapshot in time - your real DNA versus that on the SIN (whether it is your real DNA encoded on that SIN is another matter entirely). Since nobody is changing it, you have the dilemma of deciding whether you want to use your real DNA or a fake DNA signature. The answer to this question depends on what level of scrutiny you need it to stand up to.

- J.
Bob Lord of Evil
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jun 15 2009, 03:05 PM) *
I think I get what you are saying.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that a hacker/ID forger is sitting behind the scenes and monitoring when the SIN is used and adjusts the data to match when it is being searched (?).

That is not how fake SINs are processed. It is a one-way encoding. This is well established by RAW because of the number of systems that must be compromised in order to lay down the necessary data to construct a SIN that appears valid for all intents and purposes.

DWH and I are on the same page in this regard. Because it is a one way encoding, the problem therein is that a DNA check is a snapshot in time - your real DNA versus that on the SIN (whether it is your real DNA encoded on that SIN is another matter entirely). Since nobody is changing it, you have the dilemma of deciding whether you want to use your real DNA or a fake DNA signature. The answer to this question depends on what level of scrutiny you need it to stand up to.

- J.


Just curious is there any specific rule in SR4 that would prohibit creating an erase time bomb that you could attach to a SIN and the corresponding data that at point X in time it simply erases said data?
The Jake
QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ Jun 15 2009, 03:10 PM) *
Just curious is there any specific rule in SR4 that would prohibit creating an erase time bomb that you could attach to a SIN and the corresponding data that at point X in time it simply erases said data?


In real terms that is a logic bomb and useful for one-shot or disposable SINs (both of which exist in my game). That isn't canon per se, just my extrapolation. If a Johnson supplies a fake SIN for a job, we assume the SIN is of this type.

- J.
toturi
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jun 15 2009, 10:05 PM) *
I think I get what you are saying.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying that a hacker/ID forger is sitting behind the scenes and monitoring when the SIN is used and adjusts the data to match when it is being searched (?).

That is not how fake SINs are processed. It is a one-way encoding. This is well established by RAW because of the number of systems that must be compromised in order to lay down the necessary data to construct a SIN that appears valid for all intents and purposes.

DWH and I are on the same page in this regard. Because it is a one way encoding, the problem therein is that a DNA check is a snapshot in time - your real DNA versus that on the SIN (whether it is your real DNA encoded on that SIN is another matter entirely). Since nobody is changing it, you have the dilemma of deciding whether you want to use your real DNA or a fake DNA signature. The answer to this question depends on what level of scrutiny you need it to stand up to.

- J.
Yes, a number of systems must be compromised. But how and what exactly is done has not been specified to my knowledge. For example, a program could have been embedded into those databases or a sub routine was embeded into the actual fake SIN itself that causes it to refer to a hidden file within the database when it is queried.
The Jake
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 16 2009, 02:45 AM) *
Yes, a number of systems must be compromised. But how and what exactly is done has not been specified to my knowledge. For example, a program could have been embedded into those databases or a sub routine was embeded into the actual fake SIN itself that causes it to refer to a hidden file within the database when it is queried.


Even hidden data is data that is still in existence somewhere (or in some form). Which means it still can be obtained by someone/somehow - potentially for nefarious purposes. This is the crux of the issue I am trying to make.

Just as an aside, I work in IT Security as a security consultant/penetration tester (although I don't get much time for this side of things anymore but I'm still across it)/security architect (I wear many hats in this role). Amoung my PCs I have a senior system administrator/network engineer with security experience and another security engineer (both which are older and more experienced than I am in many areas). As you can imagine, anything I come up with has to be technically feasible to work for these two guys or I'll get challenged on it. Not that this holds any weight in a fictitious setting but helps when trying to extrapolate fluff and aiding players with the whole "suspension of disbelief" thing.

The whole wireless thing to us strikes us as ludricrous. But we just try to envision a world where IT Architects roamed free and security was completely disregarded (which isn't that hard to envision sadly enough).

Cheers,

- J.
Omenowl
Ok here is my view of a couple of things.

First it is just business. If it doesn't make economical sense then it won't be done usually. Yes, there is the exception where revenge takes precedence or someone is made an example of. I view that as a minority. The majority of corporations look at shadowrunners as assets when they are being paid and pests otherwise. To a corporation a shadowrunner is like a spider. You don't want one in your house, but you do want them around. Also corporations need to have shadowrunners so alienating them tends to be self defeating. You can't attack your opponents without a war and your opponents can use proxies to attack you without fear of retribution. If Aztlan has geeked the last 5 shadowrunner groups they hired then I am pretty sure no one will work for them again. Also many shadowrunner will view you as fair game and rules of warfare are off.

Secondly, the notoriety rating determines how a corporation will react. High notoriety shadowrunners tend to get there by incompetence and violence. The point of hiring a shadowrunner is for deniability and clandestine work. No corporation will stand for front page news of an attack without retaliation. However, if something goes missing or the break in was not reported then the share holders don't notice, the stocks don't drop and while work is lost, prestige and power have not been compromised. So it is in the best interest of runners to limit damage so corporations don't come after you and they also don't team up to take you out. Leave a bloodbath across five corps' territory and see if they don't work together.

As for fake sins. I look at it differently. They are real sins, but the character is borrowing or assuming another's identity . A level 1 sin is probably fake, but a level 3 is a real sin with biometric data, etc to pass everything except a fully vetted background check. Instead of a universal sin database I think every corporation and government keeps separate and private databases. When your sin is checked it goes to the "holder" of the sin data and validates the information there. If the holder validates the sin then reports the findings to the checker, but does not give much information. This does two things. One is it allows corporations and governments to have covert ops with multiple identities that check out as real. Two it means shadowrunners aren't constantly getting flagged for a fake sin. It is only when the holder flags the sin will an error come up.

Now for the sin ratings. Very low ratings means you have adopted someone else's identity, but as long as you keep a low profile it won't be flagged. Maybe the person died without being reported and his biometric data was changed to match the runner's, etc. Or maybe the low rating has a low credit, a minimum check for balance or someone else uses the credit also and as such if you use it for major purchases it will be flagged. Now high level sins are deep cover. The only way to discover they are fake is to do a full on the ground check with acquaintances, education, etc. It takes months to break these down to find out the person was actually an elf at birth rather than human. My general rule of thumb is it is an opposed test with 1 combat turn for a 1 rating, 1 minute for a 2 rating, 1 hour for a 3 rating, 1 day for a 4 rating, 1 week for a 5 rating and 1 month for a 6 rating. Threshold is the rating.

So to sum that up
1 buys you a happy meal no questions asked or fakes your age for a club
2 buys you groceries and allows you to walk in middle class or high class neighborhoods without red flags
3 gets you on a plane
4 lets you buy a house or confidential security clearance
5 lets you get a secret security clearance
6 lets you get a top secret security clearance
The Jake
I really don't think people are getting what I'm trying to say (or they are being deliberately obtuse) but the idea of validation in the SIN checking process is to certify one person is who they say they are.

E.g.

I present to customs my Rating 6 Fake SIN (kindly provided by my friendly ID forger contact). Like Omenowl said, the databases are indeed managed separately. He happens to have hacked a nice Knight-Errant database to make me appear as a security consultant for them, and forged the appropriate passes for me to carry around my gear.

However, airport customs being what they are, they ask me for two things: one is my credstick (which contains the SIN), the other is my fingerprint for a DNA sample.

The credstick is inserted. Looking at my credstick data, it identifies me as a Knight-Errant employee and it contains my SIN, my employee ID number, etc. The ID checker knows to verify my SIN with the Knight-Errant database. So it asks Knight Errant "Hey, we got this SIN - is this guy a valid employee?". Now because the system has been previously owned, it responds with a resounding "Yes!"

My fingerprint is scanned and blood sampled via pinprick. The analyser takes the sample and develops a DNA fingerprint. The ID Checker submits that DNA fingerprint to the Knight-Errant database "hey we got this DNA sample here, does this match your employee ID <blah>?". Again, the K-E system responds back with a "Yes!".

Customs official sees my ID and DNA is all a match and waves me through.

-----

Now there are a number of possible methods that this process hypothetically could be defeated. Not delving into the degree of difficulty, here's some that I see:
1) Hacking the ID checker at the airport (intercept requests regarding your SIN and respond with false information),
2) Hacking the K-E system to respond as an affirmative - either by intercepting the requests and altering the replies on the fly or by placing false datastores in the K-E node (heck, maybe just hack the K-E node to respond in the affirmative to any DNA sample that is presented with that SIN. That'd be interesting...),
3) Using false fingerprints and blood capsules in the fingerprints to present a false DNA (ala. Gattica - although I'm not sure SR has this equivalent by RAW).

Bottom line, there's a number of ways to tackle it - and yes you could possibly use someone else's DNA - but does become problematic. Occam's Razor suggests that it would be your DNA used and your DNA on file (for the most part, unless specified otherwise).

- J.
Critias
I propose that after every semi-successfull Shadowrun, the GM rolls a d6. On a roll of 1, the team is in that unlucky 17% where a vengeful member of management or head of security wants them made an example of. On a 2+, the corp realizes that what's done is done, there's no use crying over spilled milk, and they throw their resources at re-stealing the macguffin instead of just punishing the thieves that stole it from them.

Ta da, problem solved!
Bob Lord of Evil
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jun 15 2009, 08:50 PM) *
In real terms that is a logic bomb and useful for one-shot or disposable SINs (both of which exist in my game). That isn't canon per se, just my extrapolation. If a Johnson supplies a fake SIN for a job, we assume the SIN is of this type.

- J.


Thanks, good to know.
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