I apologize Bob, honestly. I wrote that at seven in the morning and I was half awake. That doesn't excuse snark though, so mea culpa.

My point is just that if you're going to claim things like "Wotc will merely be an IP holder at the end of the year" you need to bring the data or you're just prophesizing doom and allowing falsehoods to thrive. It's unfortunate that WotC and other companies do not publish their monthly sales. It would help those of us interested in the industry health to get a better read on things.

As a DnD 4e fan, unproven claims like that irritate me because it's not helping the problem we're talking about here. I see such a divide between the gaming community and people outside of it - the gaming community as a whole seems to dismiss 4e and throw nothing but negativity at newbies it brings in simply because they chose to play an edition that is unpopular. Seeing such energy spent wastefully sets off particular buttons.

To swing it back around to the "graying" of SR, more effort needs to be made to embrace the newbies brought in by the WotC juggernaut. Okay, so they're familiar with the concept of killing things and taking their stuff - but maybe they'll want to try something a little more modern, hm? Something else that has elves and trolls and dragons - but there's also cool guns, sleek chrome, and pink mohawks, and you can get paid for doing illegal things! Sounds awesome, right?

Last night in the shower I was thinking about what I'd said about anime conventions. GitS: SAC is still fresh in people's minds (if they're not already familiar with Shirow) and that carries loads of SR analogues, from cyberware to cyborgs to hacking to drones. Then you have shows like Witch Hunter Robin, Tenjou Tenge / Air Gear and Hellsing, which can easily be used to show how magic works. Mention some of that patented SR weird - one dragon's been president, another's the head of BMW, Chicago's been decimated by oversized bugs, that people can surf the internet with their minds, that you can be a catgirl, and I'm certain you'll find an interested crowd waiting for you at the table.

But many in the community don't want to put in that effort. They complain that there isn't new blood, but they're lining up to stonewall the people brought in through things like Games Days and the Penny Arcade / PVP podcasts they did with WotC. It's all "corporate bullshit" - but it's bringing new people to the fold, right?

So run with it. If there's a Games Day locally, go to the game store and bring a Missions one-shot. Put up signage that says there's free Shadowrun games running in three hour blocks. Leave books open to some of the cool artwork. If someone asks, talk to them without trying to unsell them on DnD.

Heck, do this even when there aren't Games Days being held. Make it a regular thing. No gamestore around? Use the local library or other free space. I know of a group that plays out of a Border's cafe on weekdays.

The only thing that preventing new blood is us. We've got to change and be willing to embrace different so that we can show them what else is out there. Throwing blame on video games or the internet or the damn WotC and their damned 4e makes us sound like we're Hank Hill. Until the hobby realizes this, we're going to continue to grey and whither away.

No need to appologize, seriously.
I am not here to troll and if it came off that I was, I am sorry. The internet is an imperfect medium to communicate through and me...being me...have enough flaws, foilbles, and outright baggage that simply compound the matter.

Like you, I love this hobby, warts and all! And...I want it to succeed and thrive.

I guess I'll add my .02 nuyen.

I'm 24. So I started gaming my junior year (20 years old) in college. I started with Shadowrun because I am a big fan of cyberpunk movies from the nineties (can I get a hell yeah for 1995? Virtuosity, Ghost in the Shell, Johnny Mnemonic, and Strange Days). But here's the kicker. I had known about Shadowrun since I was in elementary school. You know why I knew? Videogames. I was a big Mechwarrior fan. In every Mechwarrior product FASA put out they had a catalog with all of their Battletech, Shadowrun and Earthdawn lines listed. I thought Shadowrun looked really cool because I liked fantastic elements, but hated (and for the most part, still do) traditional fantasy. The only reason I never picked up some Shadowrun books and started gaming was because I never had a group (or knew a group) that would play. Plus, despite collecting Star Wars comics since 1995, I never really browsed the PnP RPG sections unless looking at some of the cool artwork on the covers of some of the books.

Back when I was in high school and aware of what PnP RPGs actually were, as opposed to seeing the covers of the books and just thinking they looked cool, I knew of a group that played DnD. I even talked with them about it, but they would never play Shadowrun. They were all hopped up on traditional fantasy because "The Fellowship of the Ring" had just come out and they were happy with a setting that didn't deviate too much from that.

Now, I am a substitute teacher with plans of being a full fledged high school teacher in the next few years. Being of the videogame/dork persuasion I'm able to find out a lot about those future dorks and gamers. In the high schools I sub at, there is at least one group of gamers playing DnD each. I'm not even talking about the older kids (juniors and seniors like back when I was in school), but freshman and sophomores. They get a kick out of playing their games like Grand Theft Auto and killing and looting for the hell of it, but it's still a start. I always mention Shadowrun, but nobody really cares about the cyberpunk backdrop setting, despite being ok with elves trolls and dragons.

Some of them frequent the local game shop, but others are frightened to go up there. Why? Exactly like someone pointed out earlier. The shops can be loud, smell bad, and you have to deal with lewd customers... and that's just if you are a dude. Girls get stared at and treated like they are stupid.

Put this into perspective. You are a 16 year old gamer up at the shop with friends. This fat gross unshaved 35 year old man overhears you reminiscing about a gaming session that was cool and awkwardly comes over and tells you about why his older edition of the game was far better than the latest edition you play. He starts whining about how the company has sold out to appeal to WOW gamers and wants to make sure everyone understands his protests. Then he moves the discussion to his level 18 female elf wizard that he likes to draw naked. As he gets into the details he starts breathing hard and laughing creepily and as you try to walk over to the other part of the store he doesn't get the clue that the conversation is over and follows you. Even if you can tune out what he is saying, his unwashed stink is still enough to make you uncomfortable. Now, as that 16 year old kid, isn't that a little bit outside of your comfort zone?

So are kids not gaming? Nope. I happen to know quite a few who are.
Why don't we see more? Frankly, the middle age gross inflammatory suburban trolls mentioned above make them hide their hobby from the older generation.
Are they into Shadowrun? Not so much. As someone mentioned above, cyberpunk has been dead since the Matrix killed it. If you can find a bunch of kids who like watching the Encore movie channel and like a big dose of 80's and 90's sci-fi, you might be lucky enough to get them to play. Unless we have some cool media come out in the mainstream in then next few years, it'll continue to die down. Luckily, you can mention that Shadowrun is one part Ghost in the Shell:SAC, one part Black Lagoon and one part DnD and they'll try a bite.

When I eventually teach full time, I'm going to try and establish a school gaming club solely for PnP RPGs. It would be cool to have a club to encourage the kids of next generation to spread their hobby to their peers and have the resources of a school to make it entertaining for the kids.

Quoted for Truth.

The one thing that kept me from jumping into SR 1st edition was some really bad experiences with Gamma World. The whole magic and technology mixing thing for me was just too taboo. It wasn't until I made friends with this one guy who told me that I was missing out and loaned me his books to read through did I realize just how cool it was. Kicked myself for not getting into it sooner but here I am all these years later.

Grade school and college are two great places to focus on bringing in new blood.

I think the whole pen & paper community is greying but shadowrun has from my experience quite a lot youngsters compared to other games. (Up to the point that i didn't play it anymore on conventions )

Rousing words, Ravenmuse. So what are we going to do? Lie down and say that we can't compete with a linear, limited online game?

Not a chance. I really like this hobby. Maybe some of us should try and find ways to bring in new people - running games at shops, or some such. Could be fun, too.

Anyone got any other suggestions?

K.

Well I'm always trying to set up a group. Not for SR atm but an RPG all the same. I'm finding it incredibly hard. One in 17 so most of my peers and too proactive plus its hard finding even four people per system I want to run. I know this is a compound problem of both area and lack of intresset how ever I should have my Vampire game running soon and may be move to SR when they get RPGs

I think invading the Video Game turf (like PAX) is a good start, also if somehow we could encourage a less creepy gamer that would be another positive. For the gaming shops I suggest they alter their business drastically, change into coffee shops, restaurants, pubs, that have spaces and encourage gaming. Just imagine having 40k battles at the local pub while drinking a beer. It needs to be fun and accessible to all like monopoly. Not elitist like authentic miniature battles of waterloo.

My wife and I are living for a few years in a small town in Alberta... highly conservative territory. She is the principal of a middle school (grades 6- 8 ), and I run the archaeology club there, as well as substitute teach the odd day.

I have thought about trying to start up a role-playing club, or specifically a Shadowrun club, but have self-limited the attempt for a number of reasons.

My wife has played Shadowrun, with me as GM, and she watched her son play AD&D for years. She has seen how the game can be directed according to the needs/wishes of the players and GM. Nevertheless, it would be hard to overcome the aura of violence the game carries with it. Yes, yes, I know the computer FPSs are way worse, but in an adult GM / sub-adult player format, the GM could very well be seen by principal, teachers and parents to be complicit in the indoctrination of the children into a culture of violence. Nevermind that it is easy to argue that a reasonably run game would demonstrate to the players the folly of gratuitous violence.

Then there is the element of magic, and the religion-sponsored fear of it with which to contend. Parents seem to see computer games as abstract, but face-to-face games as practice for the 'real thing'. Recall the lunacy about Dungeons and Dragons some years ago.

I can make all the arguments about the social and intellectual benefits of role-palying games, and point to myself as someone who has role-played for 30 years and not been sucked into Hell yet, nor have my children who have both played Shadowrun, but the prejudices are still there.

Now, if I could get some of the parents to play at the same time.... hmmm.

What can we do? Easy.

Did you know that Free RPG Day is this weekend? It's a perfect place to start. Grab the Quickstart from the SR4.com site or print out one of the free Missions from Catalyst, make some premades. Go down to the store with not only the books needed to play, but books with great Shadowrun art in them. Set up a sign that says that you're running three hour block games and allow people to poke through your books and ask questions.

Don't attack their favorite game. Show how Shadowrun is different, not "better". Encourage them to sit and play.

Likewise, Wizards is planning on throwing a Games Day for each core release to come out this year. Repeat this process.

Going to a convention? See what's being offered gaming-wise. If it's mostly DnD or WoD stuff, see if you can volunteer for a day to run games, tailored to the crowd. Anime con? Put a changeling or two in there and emphasis the big gun cool cyber arm motif. Sci fi crowd? Play up the cyberpunk / transhumanism. Business meeting? Turn on KMFDM and run Blood in the Boardroom

Create opportunities too. Put up a public message online that you're holding your own Free RPG Day in your area, grab quickstarts, and set up shop at a library or bookstore or coffee shop.

Just remember to curb the more "radical" elements of our hobby. I hate to stereotype, but if their hygene is bad or they're loud or they're quite obviously making other people in the area uncomfortable, don't allow them to sit at the table. Don't be a jerk about it, but you're trying to encourage people to stick with the hobby, not be chased out by guys who want to tell you about the red dragon and the Decanter of Endless Water.

It takes work but it would really be worth it, imo.

Double post.

to pbangarth: I suggest starting an RPG club but with things like Mouseguard, Call of Cthuhlu (in true HP style of never describing the horror itself just the PCs reaction), or other less combat focused games if you are worried about the violence.



Sheer awesome!



I wouldn't say heavily dominated... sure there is a place across the street that has RPGs but really other than the WOTC stuff you have a decent wargaming presence. The board games and other RPGs (non D&D) they dump in the far back corners. It certainly has more than E3 but I think PAX/Sokura Con (SP?) and other gamer friendly but not gamer cons are a good place to start.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt....

*nod* Alot of the crowd on their roleplaying forum wandered in after they grabbed stuff at PAX.

And yeah, definitely. Much of my hate for brick and mortar stores comes from experience. I've used personal examples every time that I've mentioned my dislike - we rarely go to one of the shops in Boston because we've had frequent problems with staff that want nothing to do with our business and two weeks ago, my SO was approached by one guy that didn't know what the phrase "personal space" meant. With me standing next to her! Their upstairs looks like a messy library and their roleplaying and board gaming things are downstairs, right next to the open play area. This way, while you shop, you get to hear other people's games! Whee!

We had a Warhammer store at our local mall up until a year ago. Again, my girlfriend used to walk past (it was next to the craft store, natch) and we'd laugh as we watched twenty sets of eyes follow her as she went by. The store blared heavy metal, the floor didn't look swept, and the one time we went in there for green stuff, the stores guy looked like he was going to pee from talking to a girl.

Contrast this with the shop that's an hour and a half into New Hampshire. The store was spotless and almost sparkled. There were tables set up with Munchkin, 4e, the DnD minis game and Catan, each with a sign that said, "ask us to play!" The DnD minis were next to the different dice in glass counters and the one guy working that day was all smiles and friendliness. We love this place, but it's an hour and a half away!

Again: the hobby just needs to make itself more inviting. It needs to stop trying to seperate itself from the norm and embrace it. Hire people that know their shit and realize that they're working and not to ogle the females. Clean your store hourly. Seperate the sales stuff from the play area. Make your store resemble an actual store and not somebody's basement. Curtail the weirdoes. Heck, if that means it's basically a Border's Cafe that sells roleplaying material, then so what! They'll probably get more sales that way.

Indeed it is not! It flows through Uganda and the Sudan as well!

(Sorry. So very sorry).

Mouse Guard is a great idea.


I know, right?


See, I'm working from off-hand knowledge, living in Boston and having never gone. From what I'd read, there were groups playing DnD, oWoD / nWoD, Star Wars Saga, Catan, Cthulhu, and thought that at least White Wolf was there. I bet that if someone emailed one of the organizers (probably Robert Khoo) they could help organize more play.

Sakura Con And I totally agree. I know Anime Boston has a roleplaying element, but I've never had a chance to browse through. Arisia's gaming room is..frankly, fucking terrible, but that's emblematic of Arisia in general.

You know, there's a /b/tard convention that rolls through the area too that a friend helps out at. I wonder if there's any play going on there.

Completely true. There is no good reason for role-playing games to be confined to a particular sub-culture. And they're not - half of my players in my game at University were off the football team. However, there is a preconception that exists so running a game in a café or pub environment would be good. Unfortunately I live in the UK where you spend as little time as possible in a café because they want you to clear out to make way for the next customers and I'm in slight difficulties in pubs because I don't drink alcohol (if I have to see one more of those pathetic little tomato juice bottles!). Still, a pub game could be a fun if I find the right one. Somewhere without annoying music in the background, though.

Or possibly, it being Summer, playing in the park. I think that might be excellent and could well draw in a few interested people.

K.

So let me put it in perspective, PAX main building is the convention center its huge and filled with video game stuff and WOTC had a booth that was mostly ignored by comparison (but still a presence). Its your typical Con stuff with massive displays and demos and SWAG! (including some shirts being shot out of cannons to the crowds from the Pirates of the Burning Sea folks) Now you wonder across the street to the old library building. Its a gutted multi-story building with flickering lights no carpet just the plywood on the floor, well you get the idea its a gutted building. WOTC takes up a HUGE chunk of the building for all their games. Where they hang posters and use folding tables with table cloths just to make it look nicer. On the 3rd floor is the cafeteria (ok its a bunch of tables and some vending machines) and movies. On the 2nd floor where WOTC is not (they have the whole 1st floor) theres a empty corridor that leads back to the other games. Here you find a couple annexes of gaming stores and a lot of Warhammer and 40k. There is also a room where you can borrow a board game. Plus a few more unknowns like AE-WW2 (which if you got to PAX you NEED to go watch Matt run AE-WW2 Demos). If you wander through the gutted corridors back there long enough you'll find some empty tables and various rooms (still gutted) where people may be playing an RPG they brought.

The thought strikes me: Why aren't there online "conventions"? I seem to remember WotC holding one five or so years back.

What you say?

I mean, look. We're all online now, talking about roleplaying games. There's tools like IRC, Maptools, Ventrilo, Twitter...How easy would it be to set up a list of games that people can sign up for, set up some chatrooms for people to talk in, and have a guest speaker or two in a "conference" call. You can be introduced to new and exciting games and meet new friends to talk about your hobby with, all without having to leave your house or changing out of your boxers.

The future. Scary shit.

Hm. Interesting. Not at all the impression I'd gotten from listening to people talk.

I wonder what they'll do when they start East Coast PAX next year.

Well the video game area in the main convention center is rockin! And WOTC tries to make their part of the library look nice.

I liked what the dark eye (i think that's the english name) did.
They put their core rules book in pdf format on the dvd of their latest computer game.
Don't know how many people that attracted but it seems to be a good idea to me.

There's also Bioware working on an rpg tie in with that big new computer game they're assisting with. The rules are exactly the same, so you can build your character on the computer and take him to your group the next night. That's thinking with portals.

Well, I read the first half a page of posts and it seems to be a whole bunch of people complaining about the "good old days" before kids with their "instant gratification WoW" and such. I for one am 18 and have been gaming since I was...15 I think, and interested in it before that. That andf my brother is semi intwerested and hejust turned 15 as is my friend ben who is 16 or 17. First off, I think it could be that many of the older people on here, as was mentioned, don't generally come into contact with younger people that often, you know? I mean, if there were 100,000,000 young shadowrunners, you probably wouldn't run into that many simple because you adults don't do that much associating with us young folk if we're 10-25 years younger than you. This isn't an insult by any means, but simply an explanation. In addition, I think there are many younger gamers buty I also agree that shadowrun, but its nature, attracts older gamers, it's a very complex system and very adult in both theme and style so that's not surprising that not that many younger people are playing. But hey, that's just my 2

Your players have stats?

I have been playing DnD since I was 10 years old. I am 20 now, going on 21. I try my best to spread gaming of anysort to other people and have even been sucessful of luring my Girlfriend into the fold of DnD (Oh no! An elusive girl gamer...hehe...silly stereotypes...you make me laugh)

I actually started playing DnD when my Father decided to introduce 2nd edition to my sister and I. That was when I was 10. We didn't know the rules, or what was really going on...but the whole imaginative aspect was really fun. A year or so later, I introduced it to my friends, 3rd edition this time, and got them interested.

The way I see it, sure, younger people (even people my age, cuz I'm only 20, most of these PnP RPGs are older than me!) like their instant gratification from games like WoW and Halo and Whatnot, but when I have kids of my own, I'm gonna introduce them to PnP games like DnD, Rifts, Shadowrun....and hopefully they'll get their friends interested.

PnP gaming is just a Fad. So what if its losing popularity now? It'll come back. The same ay Bellbottoms came back (Oh god...horrible comparison!)

Edit: Yes...I know this is a Shadowrun Forum...I only used DnD as my example beause it is what I have been playing the longest. I've really only been playing Shadowrun for a short time actually...

Well I started playing RPG's in 1978 with my cousin. Started playing SR in 1989 the year it came out. I have an 11 yr old son who is into RPG's. He plays with my mostly 30's something group. They treat him like a peer and he has fun. I have an 8 yr old daughter who has asked about the game and I have told her next session she can sit in and I can help roll her up a character. I am always on the lookout for people who seem to be interested in gaming. (not in a creepy way)
We have one store near here in Milwaukee that is very well kept up. It can get a little loud, but the sales staff seems pretty friendly, and I have often though of starting up an SR group to see who would be interested.

When I was in the Army in the early 90's I had my SR books and was reading one day. My roommate asked what it was, and at the time I was a little hesitant to let people know what I was into, I kinda blew him off. He kept asking and I finally showed him. He asked if this was one of those DnD kinda games. He had always wanted to try it, but was kinda put off by the crowd he saw doing it. We talked for about 2-3 hours and the next week he brought 10 other guys with him and we started group. These were guys from every walk of life you could think of, we had at least 2 football jocks, 2-3 former gangbangers and a few brainiacs. Made for an interesting table let me tell you. But it shows you never know who might be interested. If we want to keep this hobby alive we need to reach out with our best foot forward and teach.

just my .02 nuyen

Trevor L.

Well said.

I started when I was around 9, blowing the dust off a few books my cousin had in an old backpack. I'll never forget it. I found the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB, Cyberpunk 2020 Rulebook, Complete Book of Fighters and Shadowrun 1st Edition rulebook. The artwork in these books got me hooked. My cousin never really got into it so he just loaned me the books. He also loaned me the Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends.

I started running D&D games with just the PHB, making up monsters based loosely off the core stats provided. Then I got my hands on a DMG and MM. Cyberpunk and SR came much easier to run.

Over the years, my game tastes changed but it always gravitated between D&D, Vampire and Shadowrun. Of those, SR is the only one I am actively buying books for anymore.

I've changed so many groups over the years, I've had the good fortune to see many different playing styles. My current group is one I have gamed with for about 10 years now. We have a new player, the younger brother of one of my good mates. He seems to be getting into it more and more but sometimes I worry he's just into it for no other reason other than for something to do. Can't blame him. Our RP group is very casual and more of the "beer-n-pretzel" variety (even though we hardly drink when playing).

I've tried pulling in younger players. Most lack the patience to sit their and imagine the setting to be honest. I blame it on a Gen Y thing. Also few people ever truly want to immerse themselves in the setting. Some new blood in my games would be awesome but in my experience, it is hard to find good players - especially younger ones.

- J.

I got into role playing games about 2 years ago through my cousin and DnD 3.5. I thought the idea was great and it was pretty fun but the system felt to constricting to me. Then I found shadowrun, GURPS, and Mutants and Masterminds and that all changed. Shadowrun with its amazing setting has held me longer then any other system. I'm 18, going to college, and find it much harder to game at all but I still like to grab the books and see what kind of characters I can come up with in all of the systems. While I am newer to shadowrun then the others mechanics wise, fluff wise I have read a lot more things. Before I even started on my first 4e character I began reading the old 2nd and 3rd edition books I found for dirt cheap. It makes me appreciate the system as it is now a bit more. It's hard getting a group together, mostly because I dont know enough people with an interest in roleplaying and the patience to see it through. As it stands most of my gaming has fallen to PbP boards cuz I cant find enough people in real life to play. I tried getting kids into it starting with people my age, my younger brother and his friends, etc. but they would much rather do things that give them a sense of accomplishment now ala halo and call of duty...damn you video games.