I disagree, especially for the circumstances the original poster is in. The OP can take both Magician AND Type O System, which means his standard grade bio is considered deltaware for essence costs.

However, even without that, R2 Synaptic Boosters cost 1 essence and 32 BP, grants +2 Reaction and +2 IP, and are always active, no matter what. A Force 3 Health Sustaining Focus sustaining a Force 3 Improve Reflexes costs 9 BP and one focus slot, grants +2 Initiative (not Reaction) and +2 IP, is NOT always active (the spell has to be cast into it and has to be re-cast every single time you cross a ward or astral barrier), IS addictive, and can be removed from the character (physically or magically). Yes, there's a 23 BP and 1 Magic point difference. There's no question that Synaptic Boosters are more expensive. The expense is a phantom issue, however. Magic is the ONLY unlimited stat; you can always get more Magic. So, losing a point of Magic isn't as big a deal as losing a point of another stat would be. And, to be blunt, there's only so much you can spend money on at chargen as a mage. You can't rely extensively on any kind of Focus without serious risk of addiction (and Focus Addiction is nasty), and there's a hard cap on the number of Foci you can use anyway, so IMO it's better to just get a good Power Focus at character creation and then just wait and spend the money you're not going to spend on anything else anyway on top-quality Foci once the game starts. Other than Foci and 'ware, there's really nothing else that costs any significant amount of money that a mage would want, and most of the 'ware is pretty cheap too. So, again, the costs are phantom costs, and the benefits are real and very tangible unless your GM is plays the opposition as idiots.

EDIT: I want to clarify a point that I made above. With the SR4A ruling that additional IPs don't come into effect until the next time you roll initiative, a mage Counterspelling your Improved Reflexes is now insanely effective. He doesn't have to contend with your Counterspelling dice and he only needs 2 net hits to remove your next five to six initiative passes (depending on whether you or he goes first, and assuming you re-cast Improved Reflexes on your next pass). It's an extremely efficient use of his time and resources if he can't be sure he can kill you with one attack. That cannot happen if you use 'ware for your IPs.

LOL why, oh why, isn't there an O-positive quality for Cyberware?



Though, after reading some on O-positive, I'm thinking it was a scam by the GM, (hasn't answered my email on it yet). Cuz O-positive only handles basic, NOT cultured bioware... and most of what a mage needs is cultured.

No, it works on all bio. There is no such thing as "basic bioware" in game mechanics terms. The term is "standard bioware". The use of "basic" in the description of Type O System is a pejorative, not a mechanical, term.

Coulda swore that I read that cultured, because it was custom vatgrown had only one-grade which was cultured... hmm, if that's been hashed out better, it's a lovely thought


On a side note... response from GM says he might be starting a new game by the time my roomate and I get to join up, so if that's the case, it's back to standard character creation.

Might have to play with the numbers again...

So if that's the case, which ever is lower(essence), bio or cyber gets halved, right?

so that would imply adding a few pieces, and saving for others, building and dumping magic rating as character grows, with trying to put all what I had in mind, back into play.

Especially without O-positive.

No, basic bioware are everythink listet under the heading basic bioware(look at AUG page.171) Doesn't include cultured. Basic bioware is most definedly a mechanical term.

No, cultured isn't a grade, it's just a heading name for non-basic bioware and it come is all the normal grades.

No. That all is under the header of "Standard Bioware" in the actual text, even in AUG. Nowhere is the term "basic bioware" defined. It cannot thus be used as a basis for any kind of ruling. There's nothing to support your definition in the rules. It also doesn't make any sense (generic bioware works perfectly with my internal system, but bioware specifically grown from my cells doesn't?).



Wrong and right. Right in that it isn't a grade all of its own (clarified in SR4A), but wrong in that it's not just a heading name. Cultured bioware must be grown to order (which means you have to give someone very sensitive data about yourself), whereas non-cultured bio could be bought at a store.

Not even, but only in AUG, even the corebook uses the term basic bioware in the table and anyway it doesn't really matter, as type-o only works with of the rack bioware and there are no off-the-rack cultured bioware.

LOL doesn't matter.

GM is starting a new campaign I think

Also have better contact with an unknown GM met through here, so will probably be going to basic start rules, and that doesn't include o-superqualityforbioware cuz the character in question is a mage:)

Currently working on how to fit it all in the right places... works mostly with karma gen, but with BP it's kinda tight. Doesn't feel like a real character without 1 in vehicles(even if not needed) and arbitrary skills in things like hacking1 for a hobby reference.

Question about Foci.

Going with standard creation, is it worth it to create something like a force 2 weapon focus mono-whip?
Is it considered pure cheese? or just a way for those lacking in attributes can make the effort?

Also, why is it that I think an extendable baton, or knife would just end up costing lots, and being worth little?
Though an extendable baton with a monowhip in the handle might be a thought

Please cite a definition in the rules for "off-the-rack" bioware and "basic" bioware. Please also cite a reason that cultured bioware would be less efficient in a type O system than non-cultured bioware, either logically or from a game balance standpoint.

Page 338 of BBB(347 SR4A) a table listing bioware under the heading Basic Bioware lists all non-cultured bioware.
Also listet in the before mentioned table in page 171/172 of AUG.

and then there is this from the page 61 of AUG

Important part underlined by me.
So ones again i say that basic bioware is most definedly a rules term.


Do i really have to spell out to you the game balance impact of super cheap delteware synaptic boosters.

You're flailing out there Zurai. This is one of those rare cases where the rules are absolutely clear. Stop butting your head against a brick wall of unambiguous text, it's painful to watch.

I wouldn't say perfectly clear... it's hard as hell to find all those references if you haven't got them memorized... heh, I knew I read most of it, and couldn't find it all.

Game balance of delta synaptic boosters 3 good when you pay lots... better for ME when I don't.

But for a 30 point quality it sucks hard without it.

My view is that it should include cultured, OR it should be a helluva lot cheaper.

The more I read to get info and views and clarifications, the more I realize I completely stumbled onto a huge headache/burning issue among the community.

A combat oriented mage, with bioware to boost the mundane, cyberware to boost the perceptions, and hacking skills.

I never once thought about this implication. Hell, I didn't even realize it had become SOP for good character creation for a mage to include the cyber/bio.

All I had done was read the "Chaos Mage" description and figured it'd be fun to have a mage that was really looked down on by his peers because of his obsessive techie side, but could show them his value because of the tradeoffs, and play with mystical symbols and do rituals in AR just to be really screwed up and fun.

I even went so far as to get Online subscription contacts to hacker circles (with a terrible loyalty rating to simulate how he is viewed by the hacking "pro" community and "The Outpost" with the idea that he thinks training in AR/VR is more effective and they have the facilities to do it.

On top of that... I grabbed an AI in lifestyles for a disadvantage quality to my apartment, and then put him as a contact and paid for that too, saying that he's the one doing the "erasing" in the erased part of the background, and view him kinda like Slimer from the ghostbusters. Savant in the datastream, and childlike and curious about the real world and especially about Astral, and I'm someone he's adopted to experience and learn more about them... but tends to be a general pain in the ass... kinda like if a lonely dog at home learned how to email you

In it all, this was what I'd written before even posting and asking questions, or reading about things to get a better grasp on what I was trying to do.

Does that make it better? or is it still just lotsa smelly cheese that's been painted gold, and I'm pretending it's gold?

The only thing I disagree with is the idea of a mage who can hack. Show me a mage who can hack, and I'll show you a weak mage who can hack incompetently. There just aren't enough points to do both well. You can make a rigger who hacks, a samurai who hacks, a face who hacks, even an adept who hacks (as long as the adept powers primarily boost your hacking skills). But mages are just too BP intensive to have a double specialty outside of magic. Skillwires are not a solution, because you can't waste your money on hacking skillsofts and still be at the top of your magical game. And even then, hacking via skillsofts is going to leave you as an essentially incompetent hacker, and you'll get pwned by any hacking specialists or powerful IC you find. In an advanced power level game, these are things I worry about. You don't want to drop a half-formed double newbie who sucks at two different things into an ongoing campaign with higher power characters. It's a bad idea.

Now, the mage who has cyber and likes computers, that can fly. Just don't maintain any illusions about being a hacker. You will get smacked down on the trix, it will not be fun, and you will want to build a new character. That's my prediction, anyway. It's not about cheesiness of any options that have been discussed, to me it's about whether they suck ass or not. Most of the bioware mentioned wouldn't suck ass, it would be beneficial, even if I think it's not optimal. The skillwires, however, are going to be a boondoggle that gimps you, plain and simple. Would be nice if you intended to build some kind of solo operative character, but not necessary or helpful to a team.

I fully intend on sucking ass when it comes to hacking It's a hobby, not a career option. A point or two in it is just to represent the comprehension and experience gained from using it more than other mages and making arcane symbols in AR to simulate what you would be doing in the real world. It's a focus concept (not foci, but attention), and might make for a decent geasa if I decided to go that route with it.
For mundane uses, I would see it as enough to be more than familiar with how to do things, and what to do, and knowing when things are wrong or broken... and knowing enough to take it to a professional to get it fixed.
Character has no illusions about the lack of skill, and doesn't intend to become a hacker (as in group role), regardless of what the skills say or become.

As well, I don't plan on taking skillwires. I'm taking the approach from the character's point of view that whatever he's doing, he's a professional at it, and skillwires are band-aids for non-professionals to try to get professional jobs.
I can see how they would be a great asset for filling holes that a group needs, example being something like demolitions or stealing a thunderbird when no one has the skills to do what is needed. But I'm trying to avoid, at all costs, being that guy... in another game... with another group that has more holes than filling.

Guess it's just habit to think like this, since I"m usually the guy that does that in whatever game. Concept says I'm not that guy... Desires say I'm not that guy... Practicality usually says if I'm not gonna figure out a way to include it, the group has holes.

Granted, where I'm living (Reno, NV), the gaming community is pretty damn hard to find, any search for gaming brings up casinos, dealer schools, and electronics repair. Same goes for trying to ask around town. Luckily, for the first time, there's a CON here, and it's this weekend. So my hopes are to have my gaming network explode in a good way.

Options are nice.

Super cheap? Type O system is THIRTY BUILD POINTS or SIXTY KARMA. It's also 85% of your positive quality allotment. That's not cheap by any definition, and if it doesn't cover cultured 'ware, it's dramatically overpriced. Even with it covering cultured bio, I've never seen someone take it. It's obviously not overpowered.

So, I ask again: cite a game balance or logical reason why it shouldn't work.

You also have yet to cite me a definition of "basic bioware" and "off the rack bioware". Nowhere are they defined in the text; the uses you're showing me are second-hand.

Yes 4IP:s for 240K and 0.75 essence is super cheap.

How much more defined can you get then table listing all bioware having a section titled BASIC BIOWARE.
And you can go up and look it up in a dictionry if you don't know what "off the rack" means, for the rest of us it pretty simple english.

Just my two :

From an efficiency standpoint, avoid specializations. Now, if you're grabbing a rating of 1 in a skill purely for flavor and also want the specialization (once again, mostly for flavor), be my guest, but from a BP build perspective, specializations are inefficient to purchase with BP (and quick and easy to nab with karma).

Avoid level 1 skills if possible. Most 0 rating characters can drive a car, they just won't do well at all pulling crazy stunts.

Two skills at 5 or one at 6 is really more a matter of what's most important to you, in my opinion.

I have a hard time with the rank 2 power focus. It's still expensive (50k nuyen is 10 BP) and if you find or want to get one later, you're hating yourself for that waste of 12 BP on a 'piddly' rank item. Then again, +2 to almost all of your significant rolls is pretty freaking awesome. 29 BP for the rank 4 Power Focus really means to me that you probably won't worry about a Power Focus for the vast majority (if not entirety) of the game, but 5 BP on Restricted Item is inefficient and you're spending 20 BP of resources to pay for the damn thing. For mages, there's a balance in chargen regarding this between nuyen and karma (the story is that mages are usually starving for karma and have too much nuyen to know what to do with it)--in other words, is spending 20 BP on 'money' worth it to you? Or are you viewing it more as saving yourself 32 karma? (if it's still 8 karma x focus force for power foci).

A sustaining focus at rank 3 is really a toss-up. You can't get a higher force sustaining focus at chargen without the Restricted Item Quality, and if I were going to take that quality at all it would be for a Force 4 Power Focus. That being said, a rank 3 power focus lets you sustain the Improved Reflexes Spell cast at Force 3 (meaning you can probably mitigate the drain with most builds AND you can get 2 IPs, keeping you competitive with most characters of your comparative power). The sustaining foci, though, aren't too expensive and are somewhat cheap karma-wise to bond. The question is, though, can you bear that -2 to your actions from sustaining Improved Reflexes (all actions, by the way) and possibly another -2 from sustaining a Heal Spell until it's permanent? Hoo boy...

Spells are a hard call. Not having them at the start means you might not have the tools necessary to do your job. Having them at the start eats away at the other options for your character. They are decently efficient to buy in chargen, but not that much so that I would recommend getting as many as you can. I would try to get what you think you need at a minimum and then get more if you can afford the BP later. Please, please keep in mind sustaining spells and sustaining foci you do or don't have (or how many you can have active at once anyway).

Now for astral combat, do you roll that to resist an astral enemy's attack? If a spirit whacks me in the face, do I roll Willpower + Astral Combat to dodge? I realize that if a rival mage is hurling a spell at my astral form and I just hurl spells back, Astral Combat is useless, but is there another reason to have it then? You tell me (please, I'd love to know).

Assensing is useful. Perception is useful. I think some sort of social ability is useful as well as stealth on its own (stealth skill or improved inviso help, but don't know if they sub for the skill well enough).

The sad thing is, I haven't myself found a justification for using BP to learn the Pistols skill or Unarmed Combat skill for a full magician template. As much as I would enjoy the idea of never having to worry about smuggling weapons into anywhere as a mage, I'm somewhat disappointed that I don't have the BP to spend on shooting a gun decently or defending myself with martial arts.

Oh, did I mention Edge is awesome but it's a royal pain finding any way of having any points left over to raise it? Woo hoo!

Looking at it this way:

240 BP for attributes (assuming Magic 5 and no Edge increase)
120 BP for skills? (and this just doesn't feel like enough if you care about having mundane abilities at a decent level)
Let's be nice and say 18 BP for spells?

You're at 378 BP there. Tack on 15 BP for the Magician Template and you've arrived at 393 BP total so far. With some disadvantages thrown in, maybe you can get some gear and a spell or two more?

This is why (as useless as people say they are) I've ended up leaning towards an Adept. At least I have an excuse to increase unarmed and pistols skills and on top of that, I have room for a decent stealth skill group and influence! I can even raise my Edge past 1 (or 2 for humans)!

Anyhow, that's my little input on my experience so far with playing around with BP to make a full magician template.

Oh, Mentor Spirits are a great advantage if you find one you like. Just make sure you will enjoy the advantages and the flaw (even if enjoying the flaw is only from a roleplaying perspective).

4 IPs for 240k, 0.75 essence, and 85% of your positive qualities, not to mention 30 more build points (ie, equivalent to another +3 stats or 150k ). Note that this is more expensive than 4 IPs as an adept. Adepts only pay 35 build points to get 4 IPs (5 for Adept, 30 for +3 Magic to get to 4 power points). With Type O system, you're spending (the equivalent of) 78 BP. Notice how that's twice as expensive? Remember how Adept Improved Reflexes is generally considered a very poor buy even with the price nerf in SR4A?

You continue to ignore that Type O System is the single most expensive standard quality (tied with Wild Card Nano Prototype, which gives you infinitely flexible reprogammable nanites, which you cannot get in any other way). Again, without the ability to affect cultured 'ware, it's dramatically over-priced and thus under-powered.

You're trying to tell us that the words "basic bioware," printed in the text as they are, don't mean anything, even though a quality references that category of bioware specifically. Basic bioware is all bioware that isn't cultured. You fail. The more you argue, the more you make yourself look deliberately obtuse and hostile. You can have your opinion, but you're not winning this argument.



That's your two yen? I'd hate to see your 20 yen, would crash the internet...

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

The fact remains that no one has been able to cite a definition for either basic bioware or off-the-rack bioware.

Folks, can we stop with the debate of minutia of words?

If it's working as intended, it's overpriced. because it only works for the cheap bioware which is not horrid pricing even in deltaware.

If it's meant to included cultured, it's priced correctly, and a very impressive quality.

Arguing which one it means is stupid.

Both of you know this, and you argue it anyway.

This is fine, argue the points if minutia and idiocy and flame and bitch and take each other out to the back yard and make a formal duel of it.

But please, stop it on my thread!

You've turned a good conversation, that has taught me tons, and gave me lots of insight to look for, and find more information, with well thought out responses, and genuine Help going on... into a thread that's IGNORED by anyone that could and would ACTUALLY HELP ME!

Doesn't that mean anything to you?

So either quit the argument and help and talk about the topic as its posted...

OR GO THE HELL AWAY!

Thanks

You don't understand the ad hominem fallacy, do you? Ad hominem is where I say "you are hostile, therefore you are wrong." That is the logical fallacy because your being wrong does not follow from your being hostile. What I propose is two different propositions: 1) The book contradicts you, therefore you are wrong. 2) You're making yourself look bad, therefore you should stop arguing. The two propositions are unrelated -- you're wrong because your premises are incorrect, based on the book. You're not wrong because you're being unreasonable, you're just wrong AND unreasonable. The fact that I say you're wrong, and also that you're being unreasonable, does not mean that I'm making the logical equivalency, and does not convert my answer to ad hominem. Understand? Or do I need to simplify it more?

You're wrong because you're ignoring the text. The words you want are right in there. Basic bioware is in the book. It is a category of bioware that includes non-cultured bioware. Your insistence on a definition is illogical and unjustifiable. It defines itself by the structure. You have a list entitled "basic bioware," listing a number of pieces of bioware. There's your definition. Now please stop embarrassing yourself.

No the pricing might not be super horrid, put deltaware isn't easy to get as most runners don't have acces to delta clinic and in chargen your limited to alphaware.
And even when only working for non-culture/cosmetic bioware it makes bio-adept pretty amazing, allowing her to fit pretty much bioware to that 1 point of essence and whole lot if your willing to sacriface two points of magic.

Yes it is, becouse there nothing to argue about, as Zurai is just wrong in this matter and very obtuse too.
With a simple search you can find statement from multiple devs/writers stating excatly what I and larme have said.

So I guess the whole ... QUIT HIJACKING MY DAMN THREAD AND TURNING IT INTO SOMETHING THAT WILL NEVER HELP ME didn't process...

Gotcha.

note: Inserting something I type as part of the request to quit, and using it to VALIDATE not-quitting is still NOT QUITTING.

Man. It's like talking to my 14 year old son. He just doesn't get it.

Regiment, I don't think you should listen to the haters who say a mage can't hack. I think what they're really saying is that if you managed to pull off a mage who COULD hack, it would break their conception of What's Possible, and that would be Bad.

You need two things to hack; nuyen, to buy programs and doodads, and BP/karma, to buy skills. You can get by with loads of nuyen (buying skillwires and keeping programs updated legally) or loads of skill (write your own programs and mod your own doodads), but the balanced approach is probably cheapest. Hell, you could get down the basics with 28 BP (Hacking 4, Computers 3) and 13,600 nuYen (Analyze 6, Exploit, and Stealth 5, Spoof and Sniffer 3, additional Common Use programs as necessary), plus your commlink/os, which even non-hackers should really keep high-tech.

You'd need to avoid cybercombat; that'd probably be the biggest difference between you and a hacker. Hell, you should probably even run cold-sim, so black IC can't nail you; you don't need the extra IP, and, what with your brain being your magical asset, you like it unburnt. Other than that caveat, you could probe your way in places, sniff yourself some juicy paydata, and delay any pursuit for long enough to get together a more serious defense. Decrypt and Defuse are nice, but it's the difference between having bolt cutters and a pickup truck for stealing a bike; either you can get the lock off the wheels on the spot, or you can take it back to your chop shop and work on the lock there.

Far as I can tell, the 10 BP for a wasted point of magic are worth it for the benefits. Remember, if you're rolling in nuYen later, you can take out you big soul-sucking budgetware implants and replace them with nearly twice as many shiny, soul-friendly betaware ones.

EDIT: I just wanted to be very clear that any reference to "haters" was in jest. I didn't mean to state or imply anything negative about anyone.

LOL I agree, it would prolly torque off a few people to pull it off. I've decided to go with a more hobby-style computer build for starters, going with karma gen and 750 pts. pretty much have it down, even use 2 points of essence up in the process. Hell, if I was gonna go full bore and be broke with a crap commlink, I could even do it where I had synaptic boosters 2 in the same build, but I decided to have a more techie mage life than that

I'll post for judgement and perusal later, there's a tiny gaming con in town this weekend that I'm camping... granted, that's a very loose description, since it's about 150 RPGA official sanction games and I don't play D&D at all. (ok, I'm lying, I got in a pick-up game of 2nd edition rules in a celtic setting tonight with a few other misfits that don't wanna play 4th ed D&D in a 3 day MMO binge to build my character up officially... woo!)

But after the weekend, I'll type it up and letcha see what I've done wrong and give corrections.

Thanks

And btw, I didn't take offense to anything, I just didn't want people seeing it as a flaming/argument thread and not being even on topic to what was being talked about originally.

Everyone can "hack," all it takes is a small pile of dough for a souped up agent and a program suite. The problem is that there's a difference between "hacking" actually being a good hacker. A mage cannot afford to be a good hacker starting out, and if they devote all their karma and nuyen to hacking instead of magic, they will lag behind in power and end up being a drag on the team. The question is not whether it's possible, the question is whether it's wise. It is unwise for a mage, the one archetype with 0% spare BP left over, to take up a hobby. That's the long and the short of it.

He's making the character with karmagen, so he could probaply make him a good mage and a good hacker, as it gives you more room to expand a character.