Does anyone play anything other than an adept anymore? I look at all the character builds that people have been making, and they're ALL adepts. I'm not surprised, really, since they're very cheap for all the bonuses you get, but still. It's destroying my notion of magic being uncommon in the 6th world.

While I love adepts, and do have one floating around, if it's any consolation, my two main characters are both heavily cybered bruiser types.

Not even orks, either! One human guy and an elf guy(the latter is my main guy, so to speak.)

Thing is, while they start a bit slower, they do eventually get frightening. Now, not even power-wise, adepts just have all of this cool, neat stuff they can do. Combat, social, athletic, technical, whatever. I suppose it's just the ''feel'' of them that gets people.

Nah, Mundane Trolls is where the big Fun is at ^^

My current PnP group consists of two adepts and one mage. One of the adepts is a new character, and made as a result of the player's opinion (after years of playing a street samurai) that adepts offered more than sammies.

Metal is better than Meat.

Heck, in my group they are mostly Technomancers. Nobody posts characters to DS because the recommendations here go counter to our playstyle.

BlueMax

I like your sampling technique.

Adepts are just the more challenging and fun build. The 0-essence samurai has been done to death. The challenge is combining the sammy and the adept and coming up with something that's better than the sum of its parts.

That said, adepts are not cheap, and their bonuses are not that overpowering compared to what you can get from cyber. Unless you're talking melee combat, in which case they can rock the socks of a mundane, but bringing a fist to a gunfight is still stupid, no matter if that fist sets things on fire or pours out toxic smoke when it punches people. Adepts are also the best throwers, but I really haven't seen too many throwing builds...

As I see it, it's Light Side vs. Dark Side. Streetsams are the Dark Side, they're the quickest way to incredibly power. But someday the Adept, through cleverness and dedication, will advance to where he can defeat the streetsam... You'd just better hope the campaign isn't over already

Er, did you see my thread asking for newbie advice? All I have to say in my defense at picking a Gunslinger Adept was liking action movies that seemed to feature characters that seemed they would be somewhat like that. If I didn't pick that example character to use as a template, I think I would find Drone Rigger very interesting but find myself intimidated by the digital world - and even though I find trying to understand magic even more intimidating, I don't view the Adept as magic per se, just an extention of fun point buy, kind like when I would make various characters with Fallout's (PC) S.P.E.C.I.A.L system, kinda like they are extra Positive Qualities, so I find it easier to understand to my newbie mind. Hmm, and if I didn't do Adept or Drone Rigger, I think I would do a weapon specialist, I just find cyberware and magic spells kinda creepy ... which I guess totally works for some people, some people probably find drones, remote hackers, and guys who like to shoot other people for a living creepy too.

My players never really play adepts until one of them discovered the Gunslinger Adept. We usually get all kinds of street sammie characters or mercenaries.

Whenever I made npc characters for them to have the option to hire (to fill in gaps in the group), I would always play the Decker/Hacker, and had designed an Adept and a face that they never actually bothered taking with them, lol.

The thing about Shadowrun is that it's not just a cyberpunk game, it's also D&D and wire fu, all rolled into one. So we get a substantial number of people who don't have a cyberpunk mentality, who think that if cyberware was real, they wouldn't get it because it's just wrong or unnatural to replace your natural body with machinery. And like it or not, many people tend to play what they'd like to be, even versions of themselves projected into the SR universe, because that's all they know how to do. A person who doesn't believe in cybertech IRL is much more likely to be prejudiced against it ingame, hence the gravitation towards "pure" adepts and mages. The system punishes virtually any archetype that doesn't take some cyber (mages the least, though), but people persist in doing it because of their own RL opinions about cyberware.

Of course, for hardcore cyberpunk fans, cyber is the holy grail. Personally, I'd like to get my body removed and have one of those cyborg bodies from Ghost in the Shell (the military grade androids, not the little toaster on legs type ). For me, cutting away flesh to install metal isn't just natural, it's preferred But I don't even know if a majority of players appreciate cyberware to that degree. Like I said, Shadowrun encompasses multiple genres and thus pulls in diverse players, so it's understandable if many people shun the cyberpunk elements in favor of kung fu or D&D type stuff (i.e. adepts and mages, respectively).

PS. Also, some of the anti-cyber mentality can be attributed to SR's messed up Archetypes system. We've always had Archetypes, and they've never meant squat because there are no classes. But somehow, they stick. Adepts aren't supposed to have cyberware because that's how the sample characters are, and for some reason this translates into people saying that playing a cybered adept somehow adulterates the archetype. Never mind that "archetype" is a meaningless concept--you gain no bonus for conforming to an archetype, and are often penalized because the sample characters are engineered to be middle of the road, not particularly good.

Imo folks don't tend to play magic characters with a lot of cyber because... it's "cheesy", and against the usual RP flavour of an awakened's background. Of course this doesn't preclude it rules wise. It's just that it comes across as a min/maxer approach. I have no problem with min/maxing, it's my default style when I play (although I find myself moving away from that style as I grow older). But a min/maxer needs to be mindful of the rest of the group. A rogue min/maxer will screw up game balance, and cause the GM to create opponents who are too deadly for half the party = no fun.

Which is why one should show the other players a trick or two, once the GM ain't looking any more ^^
In SR, you don't NEED to be the Weak-Ass-Mage. Be an Ork, or a TROLL-Physical Adept with Path of the Magician.
You can brawl with the best and you can STILL sling some stylish(if useless) spells.

As I said elsewhere, I almost always take a little cyber unless even the IDEA would be anathema (Think Native American Souix Magician).

I have played just about everything in one of the editions of the game at one time or another, except a dedicated rigger. A samurai has a lot of advantages, especially early on: they are mostly financially limited. Karma's usually harder to come by than money, unless it's a SERIOUSLY gritty game. In Runner's Companion, Netcat earns 100,000¥ for retrieving a single computer file. Yes, it required a Resonance Realm Quest, but the Johnson didn't necessarily know that. They just knew what the file was worth to them. So as long as the money flows, they can focus on things like locating a Delta Clinic and upgrading themselves to the max. The only real downsides they have is that there is an absolute ceiling on their abilities (ESSence has to stay positive unless the GM is feeling a little nutz and is willing to allow a Cyberzombie PC), and that they tend to set off alarms everywhere, and the authorities are ALWAYS curious why they are built like the proverbial Main Battle Tank, what with that internal armor, bone reinforcement, internal weapons, air supplies, toxin antidotes, and on and on and on. Karma is a lot less limiting on them, and things like Skillwires can be a handy way to get around skill progression on skills that aren't "mission critical" but they'd still find handy to have. (Think the scene from the first X-Men movie, when Wolverine walks through the metal detector at the Statue of Liberty.)

I don't think the CyberSammie is dead. I think they have a speciffic place, and if your party doesn't have that slot, you probably won't see her in your group. They are powerful and effective, and with a good WILlpower (and EVERY one should take Daredrenaline - look it up) can even stand up to a magician.

The biggest limitation on the Adept is their relatively slow progression in power level. It will depend on what kind of campaign you're planning to run. Short term, the Adept looks a LOT less attractive.

I almost never play Adepts. Don't get me wrong I like the idea of an adept assassin that can walk past cyberware scanners and then rip out a target's heart, but I love my Riggers a little too much. When ever I do play a magical character I tend to play a full Shaman. Just something about the NAN magic that calls to me the most of all the magical types (including adepts).

I just don't get along/can'T wrap my head around the concept/rules of magic. No, not even the simply Adept Stuff works for me in most cases <.<

I am ALWAYS delighted to leave the rigging to somebody who loves it and understands it in detail.


And given what I have seen of you Stahl, and in combination with what I said above, I would be delighted to have your studly troll ass along if I need that kind of firepower. Again: leave the job o the actual specialists. If I have a tank that needs busting, or a cyberzombie that's getting my panties in a twist, I know who to call. *wink*

This might be symptomatic of how long our campaigns often last, but I have two full magicians (one hermetic, one shaman), one mystic adept and that is it.

Nobody wants to go an adept. Despite their awesomeness, the karma hurdle is too much for too many players to get over.

- J.

A mystic adept is an adept, too. and he didn´t pointed out if he is just talking about physical adepts. So maybe he should come back and tell us what exactly he meant?^^

Technically, yes. In practise however its pretty much a mage - although it comes down to the build.

When the OP says "most builds" he means that most are using 'physical' adepts (skill/social/warrior/stealth/whatever). At least that was my reading.

- J.

Yeah, could be. But i also saw a lot of mystic-adept builds around, so i´m not completely sure. Why isn´t anybody using the "ki-ad" notion anymore? I was so pretty clear what was meant.^^ Is it the same thing that there are no otakus anymore and now only technomancers exist? I liked this notion.

In the PbP game I just joined over on SA, I'm a relatively unaugmented mundane. One IP, not a whole lot of performance boosting cyber or anything. In fact, the best cyber I've got is Aluminum bone lacing. Keep in mind, the game premise is stolen from the 2nd Ed source book, Cyberpirates.

Note: there's a reason for the one IP thing. Character is a heavy weapons user, with a specialization in machineguns. Because who doesn't love horribly violent person/vehicle killing suppressive fire?

I suspect Mystic Adept builds pop up a lot around here because they're a pain in the butt to get to the point where they feel effective. At least out of character creation.

-paws

Don´t be so cruel to the poor mystics. ^^ If you focus on one aspect, they ARE effective. Ok, you always lose one point of magic, but if you play them as mages, the BP´s are 5 points lower than for his counterpart and there are a lot of advantages you can gain from the adept powers. If you play him as an adept, you have access to counterspelling. I think they are worth the trouble and pretty effective.

Yes, they are. Well, they can be if you build them right, anyway. What I was trying to say is that people try to do too much with them at character creation. They spread themselves thin to the point of uselessness.

-paws

PS The Charisma-based Social Mystic Adept with Conjuring looks pretty tempting to me.

I can't think of anything better modeling Shadowrun gaming reality than Dumpshock. Seriously, though, half the people in my group play one, and there have been a lot in Missions play.

I meant adepts of any sort. In our group (of 4), we've got one physad with some cyber (bone density, etc.) who's a boxer and a mystic adept who goes for all the stealthy stuff on both sides of the magic divide.

I guess my thing was that, due to the adepts ability to improve skills in particular (though other reasons, too) that they show up far more often in game than the setting would imply.

T'would be to me, if it weren't for the cost on binding materials...

I think that trying to apply game-world demographics to the shadowrunner community is not a good idea. IMO.


500 nuyen/force (as of SR4A) isn't exactly bank-breaking... unless you're playing Denver Missions or a street-level game.

Oh, wait.

-paws

PS Oh come on, the pay isn't that bad, is it?

That is how I got into playing riggers in the first place. I was new to the group and all the "cool" roles were filled. They needed a wheel man and I wanted to play. I just read everything I could get my greedy little hands on and in the end I ended up loving the rigger more then any other archtype. I find it funny that back in SR1 I thought of the idea of sending in drones instead of the team because it was safer (in SR4 it is considered SOP). My favourite Rigger book so far has to be Security Download as it is the book that I feel brought Riggers to a level where they could really contribute to a run.

My main character is a fast talking rigger/smuggler. He's pretty oblivious or super intelligent.. i'm not sure which. He also helps the hackers out here and there, and establish top of the line communitcions with the group, and is farily adept at Breaking and entering.

My other character is an orc with bone lacing, bone density,orthoskin, custom cyberarm with gyro, spurs with cyberglands. He dresses himself in some layered armor, a helmet and a ballistic shield and kicks the door in.. while firing a heavy pistol around the shield.

My 3rd character in the works is a mage with astral hazing, basically an ANTI-MAGE

Here was kind of my thought process:

Cyberware? Hmm, would I really want to tear my arm off for a brand-new metal one, even if it worked better? Probably not, and hot damn how does someone rolling around with all that 'ware behave subtly? Oh, not really at all? Ahh, screw this then...

Oh wait, Bioware. Hmm, that feels a bit more like just 'improving' my actual body instead of replacing it with tin cans, although apparently I'm still raping my soul to do it (though not as much). But holy shit, this stuff is expensive?

And hmm, the better or best of the best 'ware (usually less soul-raping in terms of Essence lost) is not available at chargen or is just too expensive? Well, I better wait then for that, and not do anything yet...

Well, we have some options for beings that don't get their bodies raped. Hmm, a mage, he can utilize his 'awakened' mind (ie, better, smarter, able to exert his will on reality itself) to literally change reality. Oh, and the smarter I am, the better I do this (logic traditions at least anyway)? Great, sign me up!

But uh-oh, apparently being a mage that utilizes a pistol and unarmed combat as primary combat skills while having decent perception and stealth skillset with some existence of a social skill just costs too much BP if I want to be a competent mage at all, eh? Oh, and if I wanted to focus on using pistols/unarmed combat while just using multiple buff spells (instead of nuking everything to death with manaball), then I would have to get a truckload of sustaining foci or just leverage so many penalties on myself that I'm non-functional anymore? Well fuck this, this isn't working at all anymore. As much as being able to bypass all weapons scanners and nuking my enemy anyway is nice, I would still like to be able to use a gun and my fists well, as well as sneak around and not be an utter social retard.

Alright then, an Adept is obviously inferior (at least at chargen) to a street sam and lacks the kickass potential of a mage, but at least I have some godamn points left over to do something I like with my character. Oh, and the only upkeep on the Adept is buying his magic attribute up, or hell I can just focus on improving other things on my character sheet? Great! His powers, though somewhat expensive and inefficient at times compared to other options, are often passive and don't impose penalties on me? Even better!

Well, what about mystic adepts? Initial opinion: You want me to combine my rant about the full mage (above) with my adept build (also above, but lower)? Now that's madness!

That's more or less been my frustration with the game. Cyber is gross to me, bioware might be passable but still apparently rapes your soul and costs way too much, and being a full mage makes me nothing but that (apparently I can't shoot anything competently, use my fists well at all, sneak around without improved invisibiltiy or stealth spells, or talk to people with any means of competence either).

Also, Adepts just feel like they can blend in a bit better than the others. Oh, and no foci for many adept builds = more karma and nuyen free to spend how you like! I don't have to know a fucking talismonger and hate myself every time I want to get a goodie for my character, I can actually just go out and buy shit!

So yeah, pretty much my sentiment. Any advice on the mage vs. adept thing is also quite welcome...

Your gripe is that you can't make one invincible character with every neccessary skills and no major weaknesses? That's a good gripe to have It makes chargen fun. In SR3, I had to deliberately self-gimp in order to not rule the streets on day 1. In SR4, it takes careful choices to become that powerful, and it *always* requires sacrifices. What's great about SR4's chargen is that no one archetype rules them all, there is always a choice and nothing's a no-brainer.

Also, what chargen are you using? Adepts have points left over to be versatile? That's crazy The streetsam is the ultimate versatile build. In fact, by using racial bonuses and clever cybering, you can make a streetsam with 5's or 6's in every attribute, and a very broad skillset. It won't be as good as the SR3 version, but it's the only way to make a passable generalist. Adepts spend tons of points on magic, their attributes suck -- there's just no way that they make a reasonably versatile character who isn't an absolute gimp. Sorry, but I just don't see the basis on which your opinion could be true. Maybe Adepts are the last choice if you're prejudiced against cyberware, but that's pretty much the only reason to play them (without cybering them up at least).

No, it's not actually. Of course there are two factors at play here:

1. When I originally posted this I didn't have my books at hand and had it in my head that it was 1000/Force. Oops.
2. There's just so many fun toys out there to be bought first.

I've been catching up on some classic Sci-Fi recently, and finally sat down to read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress by Heinlein. I found the best argument for voluntary cyber-replacement in that book.

The main character (Manny) has a cyber arm as a result of an accident. That's not the selling argument. What was compelling for me was the scene in which Manny pops off his arm (essentially a Modular Cyberarm with at least 7 or so different specialized arms under SR rules) before heading to bed with his lady for the evening. I used to be in the "I'll keep the meat" camp myself, but if I could just take off my arm for a round of nocturnal cuddling instead of trying to figure out what to do with the meat one all night? I might very well consider it...

It used to be 1500/force. Which sucks to the point of being useless in anythign even vaguely resembling "street level"

And yes, there are a lot of nifty toys to buy. You ought to see if you can con the others into buying some of them.

-paws

We don't have many adepts in a group that's been playing for 20 years. (eek) but for them making magic look too common, think of what runners are. They are the outside of society and a place that will draw in these extreme types. I mean most runnersd have smart links, but how many normal citizens do? Adepts have a highly psecialized skill set that is hard to find a use in the average job so running is typical for them as a place to use their skills- most professional sports ban them, I think so crime and security is the logical place to find them in a higher level of density that you'd have in a normal group. For example if you go into a RL cop bar, more people there will have guns than your average bar.

now if your world has pizza delivery boys and fry cooks who are adepts, yeah it's out of ocntrol but in the runner comminuty? nope what else can they do with that talent?

Aside from sports, more or less whatever they want i would say.
Being an Adept means you are superhumanly good at something you like.
Look for a Job that has something to do with what you like and you are probably going to do well enough.

I never get the superhumanly good at something feel from adepts in 4e. Really at most we are talking about +3 dice for most skills, a smart gun link does +2 dice. Attributes will frequently produce more dice thank skill can produce, and a bunch of other bonuses form other sources sort of drown out the 3 dice into a tiny extra benefit. Sure if you are looking for the absolute most dice you can possibly throw at the situation the adept wins out, but only by a fairly small margin.

Now perception can get a bonus eual to intuition, and charisma linked skills can get absurd bonuses. But most skills 1 extra success, which is sort of in the ho-hum category.

Well, just STATS-WISE you are right.
But FLUFF-WISE you are wrong.
Smartlink Adds Bonus dice to Dice Pool.
Improved Skill RAISES SKILL DIRECTLY.

Adepts only have particular areas where they can be better than anyone else, and typically only when they combine with cyberware. The +3 from improved attribute is only 2 dice higher than a streetsam can get from Reflex Recorder. And in some cases, using the RC positive qualities, mundanes can get the same skill boost, like from the Natural Athlete quality. The only places Adepts are truly better than mundanes is where they combine Improved Ability with some other bonus that mundanes can't have. They're the best at Dodge because they can get +3 modified skill, +6 combat sense. They're the best at social stuff, because they can get +3 from Improved Ability and +3 from Kinesics, as well as +6 to resist social from Cool Resolve. They're the best throwers because of Power Throw and Missile Mastery. And they're also the best unarmed combatants because of Elemental Strike, which can all kinds of brutal effects to punches like sonic damage and smoke damage. However, punching is pretty lame because it has no range, so it's not much to recommend them.

The other thing Adepts have for them is that Improved Ability lets them raise mental stats. Though mental stats all have augmented maximums, there's almost no way to raise them. You can grab +2 to Logic, which is the crappiest dump stat in the game, and you can get +1 to Willpower from Pain Editor, with a corresponding -1 to Intuition so that's a wash there... And you get get +1 to Willpower from a really expensive genetech. Only Adepts could ever net 9 Intuition or 9 Willpower, the former being helpful to everyone, the latter being great for spellcasters. In fact, Improved Ability might be the single best reason to make a Mystic Adept, since drain stats are such a hard cap on spellcasting for the most part.

yeahbut they're going to drift to physical stuff. I mean the adept who wants to be a great typist is a waste and maybe some of the more flamboyant chjef styles could find a use but in a world where office workers and professional drivers are cybered, they will be forced out. I mean sure the adept driver will be better than RL you or me, but the rigger with her system cybered will blow their doors off.

Typist, yes.
But any kind of Artist? Not so much i think O.o

Yeah...hmmm...but they keep their essence and therefore their soul. At the end of days the go to heaven while the sams go to hell.^^

Maybe the sams don't even go to hell, maybe they just cease to exist...

I don't know, what happens to a vending machine when it stops working and you have to throw it away?

It is shreddered on a junkyard and becomes a tin-can.^^

Maybe the Sams are good enough/know someone so they just don't die?

I will admit i didn't consider arts like dancing but culture will direct more athletic men towards sports than dance. Might be interesting as a run, the new prima balleria in Moscow, is she an adept or cybered? or a competino between two such women, one with enhanced articulation and augmented tone vs an adept.

what would fans think of an adept musciian, many wouldn't care but what about anti-magic religous types. They already think that music is the devils work, what then if they discover some great player like Eddie Van Halen is really using 'magic' to create his music?

On top of bonus dice, though, Adepts can also do some handy stuff that mundane's can't -- like Gliding and Wall Running. Sammies can get a nice high Agility and Strength, and (if they still exist in SR4) hydraulic jacks in their legs and Synthacardium and plenty of other goodies to let them run and jump real well (if all you're after are bonus dice), but there's still a point where magic, and only magic, can tell physics to shut up and sit down, because a character is out to run straight up a telephone pole, then sprint away along power lines.

Gliding is partially available to sammies, as is wallwalk. As of SR4. Augmentation.

While I agree with the sentiment, the examples suck for me since both are so incredibly overpriced for a 90% fluff ability as to be worthless.