I have a quick question about the adept power Elemenatl Strike. When the element is chosen has the discrition in the BB of defenders use half impact armour would that be just for the effewcts or the actual physical attack?

Because you don´t deal 2 different damages (like you don´t have 2 damage codes with elemental-combat-spells) your melee-damage gains the "half armor" benefit. The secondary effect only causes things to burn/melt/etc. if the GM wishes them to. In addition with critical strike, this is quite deadly.

Aside from the fact that you can't have critical strike and elemental strike active at the same time, sure.

Actually, you can use critical strike with elemental strike. Incedentally, this makes Penetrating Strike almost useless. (for half a point you can have either AP-2 or AP-half plus some nasty side effect)

no it isn't. you can have something like a gauss cannon, where you first cut the armor in half and then remove more armor afterwards. but yeah, unless you really want to emphasise subtlety or you've already got an elemental strike power, penetrating strike is a pretty lousy purchase.

Yeah, though even without elemental strike in play, penetrating strike is a lousy choice. -1AP is less powerful than +1 damage in all cases, so you're always better off going with another rank of critical strike than a rank of penetrating strike.

Elemental Strike: Sound is stupidly powerful: Ignore armor, cause nausea if DV is > than willpower (which results in a three combat turn paralysis). If less than that, you still cause -2 to dice rolls.

The point about taking Critical over Penetrating is a good one though. Still, there's nothign stopping you from taking both.

Unlike Elemental Strike, Penetrating Strike is not at all obvious to the naked eye. Nothing short of a Detect Magic spell or Assensing is going to be able to tell that you did something weird. You take it because its subtle.

Also, Penetrating Strike is good for dropping your opponent's armor below your DV. All of a sudden, their armor isn't converting Physical to Stun. Again, if you want subtle.

Then, if you want to be a spaz, you take Elemental Strike and Penetrating Strike. Half armor, minus your Penetrating Strike rating. Nasty, nasty. Even most milspec or hardened armors aren't going to be able to stand up to that.



You are correct, however... a Sound-based elemental effect is going to sound like a thunderclap. Not good for sneaking.

-paws

Sure there is, points are limited after all. If I have 3 points to spend I could get +3 DV and -3 AP or +6 DV. The +6 DV is better.

Adding more DV is just as effective for that purpose as AP is, and it also is much harder to reduce with the resistance roll.

Still better off with more DV instead of penetrating strike. Heck, aside from it's elemental effects, elemental strike only pulls ahead of critical strike against an armor rating of 6. Admittedly, an AR of 6 is lower than anything you're going to see on any real foe, but the breakpoint is there.

Unless you have a Magic Rating of at least 6 you cannot have any Power at Rating 6.

Oops, forgot that part. I think it's because I've never actually come up against that limit with a character design, too many different powers I like to have.

I see your point about penetrating strike (less powerful, more sneaky), and I'll raise you a follow-up elemental strike question; how does it interact with acid (and fire is a similar case), which says

"The initial DV of an acid attack counts as the Acid damage rating. Acid that has been splashed onto an object will continue to eat through for a number of turns equal to its rating."

Does that mean, if I have elemental strike: acid, 4 strength, 4 Critical Strike and 2 net hits, whoever I hit with my acid-fist will be melting for 10 damage every turn for 10 turns (unless it's neutralized)? That sounds too good.

Magical acid doesn't stick around for more than the current turn.

You may be right. I honestly don't know. Acid damage says:

"Note that Acid damage Combat spells only inflict damage once—after that the instant spell effect ends."

Elemental Strike says only:

"Elemental Strike enhances the effects of Killing Hands with an elemental effect."

Seeing as Killing Hands is explicitly magical, that's a pretty good case to rule Elemental Strike acid is like Combat spell acid; it doesn't stick around. In that case, does Elemental Strike: Acid do anything other than add the "cloud of acrid smoke" effect?

And what about fire? Nothing says magical fire goes away quickly, and, if someone's flammable (although this is almost entirely a GM call), the fire might stick around or even increase in size/damage. Sounds like a problem solvable with a squirt gun full of gasoline...

While everyone else here seems to agree on it, I do not think elemental strike adds the 1/2 armor or ignores armor mods to your unarmed strikes. I think the only thing you gain is the elemental side effects like nausea or stunning or igniting capabilities.

Shinobi Killfist has an excellent point. From a logical point of view, what sense does it make for my sonic-powered fist to bypass the entire milspec armoured suit my victim could conceivably be wearing, with his damage resistance determined by how well his ears are protected? On the other hand, if my fist is powered by lightning, it makes sense that his armour wouldn't protect him as well as it would against the lightning. But if that were the case, would my strength be a factor in how hard my fist-lightning struck?

I'm tempted to go with KISS and accept Shinobi's take; pay half a point, apply the effect of your chosen element, and forget the rest.

incidentally, to the earlier question about how you would decide what 'rating' the elemental effect had, i would probably go with equal to magic rating. i think i've heard that suggested before, and it's the only thing that really makes sense to me (since, after all, neither your physical strength nor your ability to wack things with your bare hands better really apply, imo)

Ever stuck your head in a metal pot while someone banged on the outside?

That's how I've always seen it, too.

The 1/2 Impact armor IS an elemental side effect. It's written in the elemental damage rules; elemental damage weapons just apply those rules. The rules don't originate with the weapons, they originate with the elemental damage type.

If elemental strike woulnd´t have this armor-piercing-capability, it would be absolutely useless. I wouldn´t pay 0,5 points for the possibility that his t-shirt is starting to burn. I think this power is one of the little adept-powers that are really good.

Elmimental strike is a unarmed adepts must buy. Baslt or should make really nice coichices so dose light.

Thanks all for the comments, it helped me alot!

Obviously I disagree.

No it would make it weak for some elemental effects and worth .5 for others. If it applies the armor mod it is overpowered beyond all comprehension for all but metal.

Agreed. Half a power point to halve (or ignore, with sound/smoke) armour, or .75 points to subtract three? Even with the subtlety benefits of Penetrating Strike, the power differential approaches the absurd.

Compare Elemental Strike (Blast) to Inertia Strike. .5 power points for +Force to knockdown (and I think it's fair to say Force=Magic), or .5 points for +half of Strength to knockdown? Even without ignoring armour, ES is the better power, but that's why it doesn't stack with Distance Strike or Penetrating Strike.

If you're determined to use ES to splatter people, work on your called strikes; ES (metal) with a called strike to avoid armour is... actually... +2 DV for .5 points... which is exactly like two more levels of critical strike. But hey, you can get it after you max out crit strike?

This is all so gross.

Just as PCs NPCs are allowed to buy protection against it. Against sound there is the sound damper, against electricity the non-conuctivity upgrade etc. There is nothing that protects against Penetrating Strike.

That is just your interpretation. Nowhere in the books does it say that adept powers have Force. That is only for Spells. So besides the halving of the armor, the blast does nothing according to RAW.

Well if you ignored the AP change, it would be even more powerful, but i guess you wanted to add neither the +2DV nor the +5AP. Wow 0.5 Powerpoints to shred paper, now that's powerful.

Goodness. I would hate to express doubt in the intelligence of my fellow poster, but it's almost as if you didn't read parts of my post before you quoted it. In reverse order:

Yes, I ignore the AP change... because I'm suggesting that the adept using it should use a called shot. SR4, pg 149:

"When a shot is called, either of the following may occur, at the player’s choice and with the gamemaster’s agreement.
• Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character receives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better armor is more diffi cult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body."

Certainly, it will be quite difficult to bypass milspec armour, or a troll stacking his dermal plating with Form-Fitting Body Armour, Mystic Armour and whatever else, but calling a shot to avoid armour is a viable option in some cases, and there's no attack that'll work in every case.

As far as your assertion that, under RAW, it says nowhere that adept powers have force... well, you're correct. I think it's clear that your opinion is that ES should apply the armour effects listed with their respective element, and my opinion is different. RAW is not explicitly clear on the matter, so I think we're just going to have to disagree, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Finally, your first point was mostly right. It's true that both PCs and NPCs can find protection against anything; however, I would challenge your assertion that "There is nothing that protects against Penetrating Strike." In fact, armour protects against penetrating strike very well. If ES halves armour, then adding 6 points of armour (say, upgrading from an armour vest [4] to full body armour with a helmet [10]) will only add 3 more dice to soak, and add 3 more damage required to deal Physical. Against Penetrating Strike, the change would add its full 6 points to both. Furthermore, the sound damper in Shadowrun only adds 2 dice to resisting sonic attacks, and I know of nothing else short of having a mage following you around and Hushing everything that gives "sonic armour" as described by the Sound element in Street Magic. In addition, there's nothing like non-conductivity for blast damage, so the only way to defend against it is half of your armour.

My point is, Dakka Dakka, that we clearly disagree. However, I see no reason that we shouldn't disagree respectfully.

Why? You can only use it for unarmed attacks and it lasts only some combat-rounds. RAW says that the attack is enhances by an elemental effect applies, not an elemental secondary effect. Elemental attacks make 1/2 impact armor, so there is basically nothing to discuss about it.

Look, the best rule in this situation (as in all situations) is the one which creates the most fun for everybody. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to have fun.

That said, Machiavelli (people whose opinions differ from mine seem to have the most awesome names), there's no problem with elemental attacks using 1/2 impact armour, but I would argue that there is something to discuss about it; RAW makes no distinction between armour-modifying elemental effects (half impact, or only sound dampeners, or only inhaled-gas protection) and so-called elemental secondary effects (shreds paper, increased knockback, glare modifiers).

My opinion, which I have attempted to express in previous posts, is that the game is better-balanced (i. e. more fun) without ES using half (if any) armour. I have compared ES to more clear adept powers, and in my own subjective judgement, I prefer that interpretation.

And with that, goodnight.

I agree that we can disagree. If anthing in my previous post seemed disrespectful to you, I apologize. This was not my intention.

I didn't mean ignoring armor for the called shot, but what I ment was that you and some other posters wrote that the AP modification of Elemental Attacks should not be applied to Elemental Strike. In the case of the Metal Effect this would actually improve the power unless you also waive the +2DV. Then all you get is a cosmetic effect for 0.5 Power Points.

Calling a shot to avoid armor is even worse in melee than in ranged combat. Whether you got the elemental effect or not you are better off with adding to the DV for a reduced dicepool.

You are right normal armor increses your soak pool with penetrating strike and only half as much with ES. But the Effect of PS always there. It cannot be countered by elemtal protection. It is true that some protection systems are more effective than others, and against some elemental effects there is no protection (yet).This is unbalanced, but most of shadowrun is unbalanced. Look at Increased Physical Attribute vs. Muscle Toner(even after SR4A's changes). At least to me this does not detract from my fun.

Speaking of fun, Elemental strike allows the adept to drop one target more quickly than without it. Isn't that what an adept on the Warrior's Way is about? If less powerful adepts are more your style, play like that and by all means have fun. But even with the AP effect, this is hardly more overpowering than a Samurai with an airburst-linked grenade launcher.

Or cyberspurs that add 3 to your damage for little essence and money, shockgloves that also half impact armor while nobody whines about etc. Sometimes, only sometimes, I really don´t know why we discuss and argue? Because it´s fun? Maybe. ^^

@McAllister: it is a pleasure to be on the other side.^^ The more danger, the more honor.^^

Shock gloves are 6DV. In the context of a physical adept based around damage oriented hand to hand combat 6dv is a starting point. If the armor is modified as some people would like phys adds with very little difficulty are taking out city masters due to a .5 PP power. Smashing blow 1/2s the armor on barriers and other static objects it costs a full PP and has a much more limited target range.

While yes things like metal would end up just having a cosmetic effect for .5 PP. Powers like electricity, sound, light, smoke would still have potent effects worth .5 PP.

But the adept still has to be near the city master, which could just as easily run him over. Lasers Gauss Rifles and Flamethrowers do not have this problem and can be used by everyone.
Yes different advantages are more or less valuable. This is nothing new in Shadowrun or in RPGs in general.

I am not absolutely sure, but as far as i know, elemental effects don´t half barrier ratings.

Aw jeez, Dakka, my bad. You know how the internet is; communication works better with body language, tone of voice, and all that good stuff to prevent such misinterpretations. I apologize.

Ok, I get that if ES doesn't halve armour ratings, it's a lackluster power, but if it does, it's quite powerful among adept powers (although certainly not game-breaking). Whichever way, that's cool. My next question is, if I'm wearing shock gloves (or have shock hand) and I punch a bitch as hard as I can, why don't I get something like 6s(e) plus the normal physical damage? Ok, I lied; it's not a question, it's a gripe, and I don't get the both shock damage and punch damage because that'd be IMBA, but I still wish I could.

I would pay 0.5 PP for the almost guaranteed ability to knock anybody on their ass regardless if I did damage to them or not. See Elemental Strike: Blast as an example.

The force effect of the element is, like all adept powers, equal to your adept's magic rating. So if you have a magic of 6, your Elemental Strike has the same elemental effect as a comparable force 6 spell.

Its probably not that big of a deal, but don't forget that Elemental Strike requires you to buy Killing Hands first. That's a full magic point before anything else.

-paws

I don´t think it works this way. It doesn´t change just because of a higher magic-attribute, it just enhances your melee attack.

Gosh, I feel like I remember that rule, but I can't find it in any book. What's the book and page number?

You can't find it, because it is not in any book. Adept Powers do not have a Force, they have Ratings.

The only real "exception" that I know of being Magic Sense, which is essentially an adept power that gives a spell-like effect.

Armor piercing effects work vs barriers, I don't see why this would be any different. Vs barriers which a city masters armor isn't considered the 1/2 armor really just brings it down to normal armor since barriers double there armor vs other spells. A city masters armor is just armor.

Yeah, but this balance difference makes elemental strike stupidly overpowered. I'm going to go with it not working like that. And sure it has the limitation of being in hand to hand which is nothing compared to the limit of a gauss rifle being an absurdly huge heavy weapon you can't take anywhere.

I hope they clear this up in the next version of street magic. Its like they go out of there way not to answer the most frequently argued about questions .

Just re-read the section but i can´t find it. Maybe i remember a previous versionm because i think i remember that elemental manipulations (good old times, eh) sucked agains vehicles and barriers.

Ok, we are discussing just the halfing of armor by this power, but did anybody think, that it could work like this power?:



If a power is comparable to this, then the elemental attack. Besides that, this part of the book finishes off the discussion about the 1/2 armor-thing.

On the other hand, the various elemental resisting armor mods (nonconductivity, insulation, fire resistance, etc.) add bonuses to its damage resistance against Elemental Strike. While it's still going to be a net loss for things like citymasters, which have rediculous amounts of armor anyway, personnel with appropriate armor mods are more likely to break even or even end up having better resistance against elemental strike than if the adept just punched them normally.

Yeah but I kind of don't assume everything out there is sand resistant. Heck since they are armor mods and not standard features I assume even the common resistance are a bit rare like electricity and toxins.

And crap things like smoke ignore armor and add a blinding effect. Sure someone can have an internal air tank or something to negate it but against the vast majority of targets they get no armor at all, and even if they survive the hit(highly unlikely) they still have to deal with smokes side effects.

IMO the choice seems to be between a range of some powers being weak and maybe just cosmetic for .5 through some power being balanced for .5 to a range of all effects being overpowered for .5 through some being absurdly overpowered for .5.

Personally I'll take the some are weak-some are balanced range in my games.