I am distinctly interested in making a mage character work that doesn't have just 4-6 in every magical ability and 0 in everything else, as well as no gadgets due to no money and does nothing but hurls manaball to kill everything. I am trying to actually build this character and may post something shortly. I had a few questions about some things so I can ensure I avoid certain pitfalls or don't ignore good uses of abilities I think are worthless (as well as not passing up good opportunities). So, here we go:

-I hear all these ridiculous things about Spirits of Man. I've vaguely read a little bit about them in Street Magic but have no idea what it is that makes them so 'awesome.' Please enlighten me (and perhaps where to reference that information).

-As it stands, I'm leaning towards Sorcery 5 (get spec after chargen), Counterspelling 4 or 5 (spec after chargen), and Summoning 4 or 5 (dunno if I'll spec or what into). Based on this, I'm clearly leaving out some magical skills for the opportunity of having a character with some mundane ability. I wanted to ask,

-What's so awesome about Binding vs. Summoning besides the non-expiration of services? What can a bound spirit do that a summoned spirit can't do that is so awesome? Sustaining spells would be nice, and as far as I can tell this is only from Binding, right? I am leaning towards ignoring Binding at chargen partly based on the need to invest money into something that will still eventually expire (I hate burning money for disposable things if I can help it not to) and because the fluff just makes it sound like a heinous thing to do anyway. Anyway, why should I get Binding or not?

-Is ritual spellcasting worth it at all? Honestly, I'm not seeing the usefulness of the ability and I don't intend to roll around with 5 mage buddies capable of helping me with such a ritual, anyway.

-Banishing is relatively worthless, right? Assuming I have a Manabolt or Stunbolt spell, this is more effective in the physical realm or astral realm than Banishing, no? I just see myself using Banishing (even with a 4-5) and ending up getting a lot of drain without much effect.

-Can I ignore Assensing until post-char gen? I like the skill and kind of want it, but it's not fitting in well at the moment. Since I can't default, does this mean I can't tell jack diddly at all from astral perception or projection? That would suck...

Looking at making a Hermetic or Chaos Mage, I like the concept of Spirits of Man and I most likely want a Logic-based tradition. Anyhow, feel free to give me some advice. As it stands, I'm strapped for BP and can't even raise my Edge above the base 2 (base 2 for Human), so suggestions on what I can skimp on or what I shouldn't skimp on would be nice.

Ritual Spellcasting does not require multiple magicians - it simply allows it. Ritual Spellcasting has no Line of Sight range limit.


Usually correct.






You know, it would be nice if you actually read the book before asking questions.

Well, what I was asking for, first of all, was assistance in piling over the various pages of the multiple books that I have not spent the necessary hours reading entirely through. In addition, I was also seeking advice from those who have had in-game experience employing the skills and techniques noted above.

For instance, having looked at Banishing myself, I observed that it is quite likely someone can accumulate a lot of drain damage very quickly without actually having a desired effect, whereas damaging one with the right spell may be much quicker and result in little to no stun damage from drain by comparison. It is this kind of number-crunching as well as the story of, "Well, I tried banishing against a Force 5 Spirit and ended up unconscious in situation X" or "Well, if you read Street Magic you find extra uses for Banishing that may entice you beyond the main rules" or so on that I was looking for.

Now I guess you've demonstrated your ability to copy and paste, which is certainly something I was looking for in regards to Spirits of Man, and I appreciate this.

However, it would be nice if you responded to the intent of the post, which was advice from gameplay experience and actual analysis that may have been done before by others willing to share their information for the sake of assisting a fellow human being.

Thank-you.

One thing I like to do is take cyber and bioware. While the essence loss hurts the Magic attribute, you can do some interesting things, including:

1) Damage compensators to avoid dice pool modifiers due to wounds
2) Increase initiative to get more than one action per turn...and possibly go first
3) Sometimes a gun is all that is needed. Smartlinks are very useful, as are weapons hidden in cyberarms.
4) Boost up body to absorb damage without the use of foci to sustain a spell.

Don't forget contacts! They are really helpful.

Be a full mage so your character gets full access to astral space.

Look at (extended range) clairvoyance, clairaudience and astral clairvoyance. I have found these spells to be exceptionally useful in surveillance, detecting ambushes and checking an area prior to insertion.

Use Influence to tell spirits to go sight seeing in Antarctica or patrol the equator for pirates.

Foci are easy to get at chargen, but tough to get during play due to "Karmic competition" (see spreadsheet, below). Buy a level 3 sustaining focus or two. Have at least one or two "helper" spells, such as Increase Reflexes or Enhance Aim. Definitely buy a power focus.

Improved Invisibility is essential and some sort of sound dampening is useful.

Trid Phantasm allows your mage to "modify" the battlefield. "Quick! Get behind that cover!" BLAM BLAM BLAM!



Learn to use ritual sorcery to track.

Always keep a spirit of some sort "available".

Don't forget to sanitize the area your 'runners fight in. Blood can be used in ritual sorcery to track the team.

Document everything your character does and try to get extra karma. You're going to need it. While a Street Samurai can buy improvements with nuyen, the mage is limited to karma. I have found that buying spells is more immediately useful than Initiating. First level initiation costs 13 Karma, which is almost 3 spells. Raising your Magic from 5 to 6 is expensive--and worth a bunch of spells. Once you have your spell list nailed down, THEN Initiate.

Finally, build a spreadsheet that tracks the character's abilities at different karma levels. Build the "final" character where you feel the character is a "master mage". I build in "goals". At 50 Karma, the character should have X, Y and Z.

Also if you are playing a Logic based Tradition, then buying a Cerebral Booster is instant boost to your Drain Resistance Pool.

Trauma Dampener is also nice because it can get rid of one box of physical damage... nice when you REALLY need to over cast that Lightning Bolt.

--------------------------------------------------------------

As for spell selection... I'm thinking Stun Bolt and Stun Ball are VERY nice because of a three things:

1. Low Drain
2. Good Will from Enemy (if you just stun him, his buddies might just return the favor rather than whacking you.)
3. harder to resist than a physical spell lightning bolt or fireball.

No, I demonstrated my ability to look in the section detailing Binding to determine what advantages it has over summoning.

I do not know all the rules; a few I am not even familiar with at all. If I have no idea where in the book it is, it takes me 5 minutes to look it up. If I for some reason have no idea what book it is in, it takes me no more than 15 minutes to find it. There is absolutely no reason you cannot even make the attempt before posting.

Your post made no suggestion that you wanted specifically gameplay experience, nor would that be necessary for all but one or two of your questions if you had bothered to actually check the book before posting. With quotes from the book, I answered most of your questions exactly, & better than could be explained by the majority without using quotes.

-I hear all these ridiculous things about Spirits of Man. I've vaguely read a little bit about them in Street Magic but have no idea what it is that makes them so 'awesome.' Please enlighten me (and perhaps where to reference that information).

Spirits of man have a number of useful powers out of the box. In particular, influence and concealment. Their real strength is Innate Spell however, which gives them infinite versatility. Giving them a direct combat spell makes them a powerful combatant, and giving them a sustainable spell(increased reflexes comes to mind), allows you to have a spell sustained with no penalty or focus.

-As it stands, I'm leaning towards Sorcery 5 (get spec after chargen), Counterspelling 4 or 5 (spec after chargen), and Summoning 4 or 5 (dunno if I'll spec or what into). Based on this, I'm clearly leaving out some magical skills for the opportunity of having a character with some mundane ability. I wanted to ask,

Cant's get sorcery 5 at char gen, it's a skill group, however, spellcasting is worth getting to 5 or 6 at creation. Counterspelling is fine at 4 at creation, no need to be higher unless you plan on doing a lot of mage hunting. Summoning and Binding are key skills for a magician, and should be high(in fact, binding being a 5 or a 6 wouldn't be a bad thing).

-What's so awesome about Binding vs. Summoning besides the non-expiration of services? What can a bound spirit do that a summoned spirit can't do that is so awesome? Sustaining spells would be nice, and as far as I can tell this is only from Binding, right? I am leaning towards ignoring Binding at chargen partly based on the need to invest money into something that will still eventually expire (I hate burning money for disposable things if I can help it not to) and because the fluff just makes it sound like a heinous thing to do anyway. Anyway, why should I get Binding or not?

Binding isn't required, but it is very useful. You can only have one summoned spirit at a time, and summoning can cause a lot of drain which can be dangerous in the wrong circumstance, plus you might fail the check at the exact worst moment. A bound spirit can do a few more tasks, you can have a lot of them(up to your charisma) active at once, and they are always ready when you need them. Plus when doing a run around dawn/dusk summoned spirits are unreliable. If you plan on mainly being a sorcerer, and only doing a little conjuring, just summoning is fine, but if you ever want to be a serious conjurer(which is very worth it), binding should be at least as high, if not higher, than summoning(due to harder checks). You get a lot of return on those skill points.

-Is ritual spellcasting worth it at all? Honestly, I'm not seeing the usefulness of the ability and I don't intend to roll around with 5 mage buddies capable of helping me with such a ritual, anyway.

Ritual magic can let others help you, but that isn't what it's for. It's purpose is to cast spells without LoS. You can astrally spot the target with ritual casting, or use a material link(see street magic). With the right metamagic(also street magic) you can even use objects associated with the target, or failing that, make a symbolic link(think vodoo doll). Ritual magic is useful, but not for everyone. Ask yourself, are these benefits worth the extra 8 BP required to get sorcerery 4 instead of spellcasting 4 counterspelling 4? For some people it's a yes(mainly people with mental/divination spells), for others it's a no(people who focus on combat).

-Banishing is relatively worthless, right? Assuming I have a Manabolt or Stunbolt spell, this is more effective in the physical realm or astral realm than Banishing, no? I just see myself using Banishing (even with a 4-5) and ending up getting a lot of drain without much effect.

In most cases, a mana or stunbolt is superior to banishing. Occasionally banishing might be slightly more effective, but it is usually expensive in drain, and not worth the BP. There is one big advantage of banishing though. Once you banish a spirit, you immediately have an opportunity to summon that spirit, even if it's not of your tradition. So apart from getting other traditions spirits, and possibly binding them, you can also use your services to grill it for information on your enemy mage.

-Can I ignore Assensing until post-char gen? I like the skill and kind of want it, but it's not fitting in well at the moment. Since I can't default, does this mean I can't tell jack diddly at all from astral perception or projection? That would suck...

Assensing is a very very powerful skill. Would you ignore perception? Would you ignore it if it also allowed you to understand magical phenomena and read emotions. The skill doesn't need to be high at creation if you don't focus on it, but you should at least be trained.

Looking at making a Hermetic or Chaos Mage, I like the concept of Spirits of Man and I most likely want a Logic-based tradition. Anyhow, feel free to give me some advice. As it stands, I'm strapped for BP and can't even raise my Edge above the base 2 (base 2 for Human), so suggestions on what I can skimp on or what I shouldn't skimp on would be nice.

Show us what you have for more help. Magicians are tight for BP, but rarely so tight that you cannot raise edge if you really want to(edge is useful for binding tests and resisting drain on those force 10 manabolts). Make sure you arn't starting with any attributes at 6, it's a waste of BP. Also make sure to take your full -35BP of negative qualities, more BP is always good, and negative qualities can add a lot of flavor. In paticular, sensitive system is used by lots of mages, though there is some cyberware you'll be missing out on.

I would first of all like to apologize if I appeared hostile in my last post in this thread, that's what staying up retardedly late and not paying attention do for you (in case you were wondering).

I'm going to post roughly what I was toying around with here. There are some roleplaying considerations to be noted here, although I am completely open to having everything analyzed and ripped apart. I love efficiency to a character, and yet I find myself falling into inefficient choices here and there for making what I believe is better for concept as well. So please, brutalize my considerations here based on whatever criteria you wish (as long as you let me know why it's bad, I'm happy to hear it!)

Assume a Logic-Based Tradition.

Human: 0 BP

Attributes (240 BP):
B 4, A 3, R 3, S 3, C 3, I 3, L 5, W 4, M 5, E 2
Essence: 6

Active Skills (128 BP)
Counterspelling 4
Spellcasting 5
Summoning 5
Climbing 1, Swimming 1, Running 2
Perception 3
Pistols 2
Infiltration 3
Shadowing 3
Unarmed Combat 3

Knowledge Skills (will be all free points, so not going to worry about it)

Qualities (Could use some help here), +15 net BP
Magician (15 BP)
Mentor Spirit (Wise Warrior, 5 BP)
Addiction (Mild, Foci, +5 BP)... not really liking this negative quality. Any other suggestions would be great.
Sensitive System (+15 BP)
Ritual Geas (Meditation, +10 BP)
Something else (+5 BP)

You can see I'm struggling on what to choose for negative qualities that I find appropriate flavor for my character AND don't gimp me or aren't cheapskate choices (Scorched, for instance, just feels wrong to choose for this kind of character, if I'm thinking of the right one).

Spells (21 BP)
Manabolt
Stunball
Analyze Truth
Combat Sense?
Heal
Increased Reflexes
Improved Invisibility

Foci (BP cost listed is for binding cost AND the associated monetary cost)
Power Focus Force 2 (12 BP)
Sustaining Focus Force 3 (9 BP)

This leaves 5 BP for gear. I know I have no contacts and that might be best for my GM since he is more into roleplaying contacts out rather than having a character sheet say you have them...

Regardless, suggestions on where I could/should shave off points would be great. Here are some of my thoughts about some of the choices above, although this doesn't mean I'm set in stone on anything above (otherwise, why have anyone look at it at all, right?):

I was looking at the 2 in pistols based on the example of that rating of firearms provided in the skills section of the book. I wanted a pistol to be a 'fall-back' weapon for the character, but not something he goes for necessarily right away. I felt that a 2 best reflected my concept of the character's ability with a pistol. As for the unarmed combat, I wanted him to be a little more versed in this as that's easier to train and when it comes down to it, sometimes all you have are your bare hands.

I avoided specializations because I can't help but stare at how inefficient they are BP-wise and how easy they are to accumulate karma-wise.

I like infiltration and shadowing a lot, and although stealth + improved invisibility spells can substitute well, I don't know if I like the idea of having to make sure I have those two abilities going when I really need to make one of those rolls on the fly. Then again, a seond Force 3 Sustaining Focus is 9 BP and would let me run Improved Invis/Stealth at the same time AND when I get in combat Combat Sense and Improved Reflexes at the same time, as well. Heck, a Force 3 Sustaining Focus and buying Stealth as an extra spell would halve the BP expenditure of Infiltration + Shadowing...

The idea behind Climbing/Swimming/Running is that I felt they were appropriate skills to have. I could envision my character having swam enough in his life to merit a 1 in Swimming, and his participation in sports in school/college could easily justify a 2 in running. The 1 in climbing is so I don't fail at climbing a chain link fence to get away from the imminent death that could easily be chasing me down the alley in this kind of business...

I think I do need Assensing and I probably want it at a 3...

Meh, feel free to tear this apart with any suggestions at all, I'm happy to hear them and done rambling about my thought process on all of this.

Personally, I like what you're doing here. You aren't going for any extreme dumpstats(far too many mages I know can barely pick up a pen, and sometime they go head and dump Charisma as well and focus on casting).

You have the ''core skills'. This is good. You have your casting, summoning, some perception, a backup gun skill and unarmed; the latter also helps with Touch spells as well as showing that you aren't a pushover if you aren't casthing.

There is room to grow, too. Which is also cool.

I MIGHT go as far as to take Athletics 1 instead of the separate skills. I mean, if you see your character as a runner it's good, but I'd say the extra 6 BP might be better spent on getting Dodge(Ranged) 1(+2) perhaps(though Gymnastics, in the group, can help you dodge, and since you have an Unarmed skill it might well be handy.)

Shadowing you might actually be able to get away with a bit lower; it is a cool skill but your spells can help. You might take a couple out of that for a basic 1 to get Assensing 2 if you want it.

Otherwise, I like this build overall. I usually like to bring up Edge a bit but a 2 isn't horrible.

While Specializations are cheaper in game, grabbing a couple BP for ''semi automatic'' might be nice. 2(+2) semiauto, a 3 agility and a Smartlink means you get 9 dice to throw in a firefight.

I can get back to ya with other things if it comes to me.

Great, thanks! By the way, I'm also fine with, "I hate what you're doing here, and this is why..."

The more and more I look at the Athletics points, the more and more I wonder if I need them. In fact, 3 BP for the Levitate Spell is 1 BP cheaper than 4 BP for Climbing 1 AND I can spend 4 karma (instead of say, 5 and a bunch of money for Levitate) later to get Climbing 1 if I want.

It's sad that it's cheaper karma-wise and BP-wise to grab a spell that covers for the same ability...

I was only looking at Infiltration and Shadowing at 3 to be at 'professional levels.' The problem is, I really do feel like I'd also want Assensing 3 and maybe Binding 4. The extra abilities given by Binding are quite awesome, and Summoning seems kind of, meh. Perhaps I could even switch the two skills out.

Another option is ignoring Spirits entirely which could free up some points. The problem is, that from both a player and a character perspective, spirits are so useful it's hard to decide to ignore them.

For most characters I make, they tend to have an idea of "If it works well, why not choose that over something else?" And spirits seem to be pretty darn effective.

I guess part of my problem is that I want to do too much at once. I don't want to be a gun-fu badass, but I want to be competent with a firearm. I don't want to be a badass martial artist, but I want to know what I'm doing in an unarmed fight. I also didn't want to be a social retard, but we're getting to a point where I only have so many points.

I don't care about not being great at pistols, unarmed, or social abilitiy. I do care if this affects my ability to function in my primary role.

The small problem here is that I may end up only playing with one other character, a hacker. I don't know if the GM will introduce NPCs or not to fill other roles, and therefore being able to even have a modicum of social ability and/or some practical skills would be nice.

I've played a very competent combat mage before, and under the 400 BP system. I went at it a bit differently, but it is very possible.

Switching out Shadowing for Assensing: 2, saving 4 BP, and then maybe taking Infiltration: Urban(1+2) for 6, frees up 10. Scratch out 2 more and theres a Binding of 3. Or switch out both Shadow/Infiltration like you said. Either would work pretty well.

Of course, there is the twinkier method of Making the Ideal Balanced Mage-go Dwarf.

[the mechanical reason for this is their stat bonuses. You'd pay 25 BP for Dwarf, but those same attributes above would end up 210, plus thermographic vision and the disease/poison resistance. It only saves 5 BP at the end of it all, but the vision mods are a nice bonus. Being able to pump Willpower higher is also nice.]

From a pure crunch standpoint you're probably better off with Willpower 5 Logic 4 than the other way around. It gives you an extra box of stun, and an extra die to resist spells. I also think you can run a much lower Summoning than you are - my current character has a summoning of 1 and is doing reasonably well with it (though I did take the Rating 4 Power Focus using the Restricted Gear quality).

I wouldn't personally take both manabolt and stunball unless you're RPing a Won't Kill type - in which case you get 8 points back for dropping pistols. *grin* Sometimes you really do need to blow the heck out of a lock or door, and for that you're going to want powerbolt. Plus that gives you the possibility of overcasting when you REALLY need to try to take down a drone or other vehicle. You can always stunball against a single target - hold up your hands like blinders until you only see your target. If you can't see it, you can't affect it. *grin*

Lastly, based on your comments about sustaining foci, I wanted to point out that they now need to be purchased for a specific spell category - thus, you don't have an R3 Sustaining Focus, you have an R3 Health Sustaining Focus. You won't be able to switch between sustaining Improved Reflexes and sustaining Improved Invisibility unless you have a focus for Health and a focus for Illusion. Also note that you cannot sustain a spell with force higher than your focus rating, and that you cannot get more successes than your spell's force - which is to say, unless you have a Rating 5 illusion sustaining focus, your invisibility won't help much against cameras. Stick to self-sustaining your invisibility until you get one.

I completely blanked on the aspects regarding sustaining foci. I may drop it entirely, or keep it for Improved Reflexes (which would be a Health one?), I don't know...

As for the Willpower vs. Logic thing, yes, Willpower would probably want to be higher than Logic from a pure effectiveness standpoint. As far as I'm aware though, my drain pool would not change with a Logic-based tradition as I originally had it. I do like the high Logic personally, although I see why Willpower would easily be the better choice for muiltiple reasons.

Yes, Powerbolt and Stunball are probably good choices for chargen. I just wanted to ensure I could avoid a ton of drain if I needed to aoe anything (and Stunabll would be the way to go for that), and that can satisfy my need for a mana-based spell in astral combat situations. Powerbolt is probably a good choice for me in that case.

You know, if sustaining spells were only penalties to magical actions, this would be so much easier...

As awesome as Binding is (I hate to say this), the way it's depicted to me just feels very, very wrong.

On that note, I feel as if I have enough justification to avoid it entirely. I may even drop Summoning altogether, as interacting with Spirits in general is just not anything I particularly envisioned the character doing. While I must admit Binding is a great skill practically speaking, I don't think the character I'm envisioning could decide that it was a right thing to do. Summoning seems fine if I want to bother with spirits at all.

That being said, the critical decision here is to bother with Summoning at all or drop it entirely. The Summoning Drain from these things is somewhat nasty, so I would also feel compelled to keep the Force of the summoned spirit around 3-4 (Force 5 just risks it getting 2 hits and therefore 4 drain, which a Logic 5 + Willpower 4 Drain Resistance Test should on average not remove all of the drain).

I'm going to look in Street Magic a bit more to see how useful I feel Ritual Spellcasting really is (not leaning towards it very much...).

Anyhow, Assensing for me is a definite must and I'll have to see what I want to do with my 'secondary' skills...

I think the only reason at this point to get a Sustaining Focus would be to get my two extra IPs (like most starting characters have that are expecting to do something other than run away, hide, or just blather suppressive fire in combat) without that irritating -2 penalty staring at me constantly. I don't feel like going for a Rank 5 Sustaining Focus at Chargen with the Restricted Item Quality, because if I were going to utilize that advantage, I would have obtained a Rank 4 Power Focus.

The goals of this character lay along the lines of 1) recon and strategy, and 2) a capable (not necessarily great, just 'enough' I guess) combatant.

I really like Extended Range Clairvoyance and Extended Range Clairaudience spells, for instance, as well as Analyze Truth and such. I also think this works really well with the choice to have the Wise Warrior as the character's mentor spirit. I'm just seeing spells such as 'Heal,' 'Improved Invisibility,' and the desired versatility of having two different damage spells (at least) and somewhat wondering what is going to be good for me or not. Combat Sense kind of feels like a waste of time for me and has a high drain value, so perhaps I could cut that out (Besides, it's a Detection Spell anyway, meaning I'd probably want to wait for the opportunity to obtain a higher rank Sustaining (Detection) Focus as well as the desired Sustaining (Illusion) Focus).

The real problem with your build is that you decided to be human.
If you were an orc and swapped logic/willpower to 5/6 you could save 30 points AND get low-light vision AND take human-looking as a negative quality.

As far as spells go consider the following:
On Sneakin'
A chameleon suit w/ rating 4 thermal damping is 2 build points, does everything force 4 improved invisibility does, causes no drain, and doesn't need sustaining.
While silence is actually does something tech doesn't, several of your spirits can use concealment which is even better.

On Buffin'
A dose of Cram cost 10 lasts 12 minus body hours and gives an extra pass and +1 reaction. While two passes is overwhelmingly better than one, every pass after that is kind of meh. If you are short on points screw increase reflexes.
Combat sense is REALLY nice if you have a sustaining focus for it. Keep in mind that Deflection (street magic) does something very similar and is manipulation rather than health.
Heal is 100% awesome, keep it.

On Combatin'
Mana spells are for blasting not-drones and elemental spells are for blasting drones.
Also spirits of air are pretty bad-ass in combat if you give them elemental strike due to their combination of high agility and high reaction, so you could skip having an elemental spell entirely.
Not much else to say here.



As far as skills go drop pistols and your athletics skills.
Take assensing 1, athletics group 1 and influence group 1.


Edit: I glitched my arcana test on Combat Sense, it's detection. Increase Attribute Reaction is health CS is detect Deflect is manip.
Good to know 3 spells from different categories do very similar things when you choose mentor spirit/foci.

I like the input. That commentary on the Chameleon Suit is great. At that point, the only advantage of Improved Invisibility is the ability to pull it off anywhere, although I guess you could wear a Chameleon Suit underneath a long coat (or other concealing clothing, then remove that clothing when needed).

That being said, ignoring drain problems and sustaining problems makes the Chameleon Suit an awesome option.

Cram is probably much more effective; however, I have no idea if I would ever bother wanting to do drugs. The fluff behind Jazz makes me want to consider it more though, as it was developed for law enforcement. Additionally, for me combat has always been a non-ideal situation in my eyes. Why risk dying or attracting more attention if you don't have to? On that note, drugs may be a better option (I can't believe I would be saying that).

I like your recommendations regarding the Influence Skill Group because I do want the character to not be a social retard. It will be hard for me to want to give up the pistols skill, but I guess in the end why would I have picked up a gun if zapping things just works so much better? The only consideration I had was a minimization of leaving behind magical evidence, because if I was competent enough with a gun I could bring that to bear and not raise as many eyebrows from people on-scene and the investigation of the scene later.

Yep, definitely get Assensing. It's extremely useful. Sometimes it is even required. If you are the only mage on the team, you need to have it, otherwise you are really hindering your own usefulness. It's not all about tossing spells and summoning awesome spirits.

In fact, I would really try to fit Assensing 4 in there, because you do not get a whole lot of bonus dice on those tests.

Not sure about Unarmed Combat. It's nice to have, but I think you should settle with just one combat skill initially (you have so many skills to cover already).
Also, if you want a close combat skill, I would rather consider Blades (or any other melee weapon skill), because of the potential to use it with a weapon focus later on (prolly much later, but you need to lay the foundations now).

Shadowing also seems like a somewhat weird choice. Infiltration would be my first pick from the Stealth group, like, always.

Bye
Thanee

I'll have to really consider the usefulness (or not) of Shadowing, as I can easily imagine scenarios in which I would want to follow someone and maintain some level of stealth, although I guess I could just astrally project and follow or utilize clairvoyance or something...?

Assensing is going to be worked in, and I'll have to decide whether or not I'm going to end up with Summoning at all. I do know that I for sure do not intend to have Binding or Banishing. Ritual Spellcasting is still kind of meh to me.

I strongly recommend that you take summoning.
There is so much overlap between spells and spirit powers.

Concealment + Confusion + Manifesting = Pretty much every illusion spell.
Engulf + Energy Aura + Elemental Attack = Who needs combat spells? (maybe take stunbolt)
Animal Control + Fear + Influence = Most mental manipulation spells.
Binding + Movement + Weather Control = Several environmental manipulation spells.

And some of those are better than the spell equivalents.

While both casting only and summoning only work as builds, a mix of both is easily the most efficient.

What!? And put forth needless effort into a task he can con Dumpshockers into doing for him?

Thanks for the input, Generico! Sounds like leaving out Summoning entirely would cut me out of a huge area of potential abilitiy, especially in light of my lack of Banishing (and most likely Binding).

Here we go. Try:

Ditch Infiltration/Shadowing for now. Get them later and use spells/spirit powers.
Ditch Swimming or Climbing.

Saved: 28 BP.

Pick up Binding 4(16)
Assensing 3(12)

And there ya go. You get your mage good at Summoning, Binding, Spellcasting, he has Assensing, and he's still good outside of casting magic. Should work well here.

That's what I was strongly leaning towards. Hell, I could ditch everything but climbing (I've heard the Running Skill doesn't affect your character's actual ability to run all that much to be worth it). Shadowing and Infiltration could be gotten rid of and built up later with the reasoning being that invisibility and the right equipment serve me well enough...

Thanks for the tips, everyone. I think I've got enough to finish this out, although continued feedback is still (and always) welcome.

Was thinking something like this:

Counterspelling 4 (16)
Spellcasting 5 (20)
Summoning 5 (20)
Assensing 3 (12)
Perception 3 (12)
Pistols 3 (12)
Infiltration 3 (12)
Shadowing 3 (12)
Unarmed Combat 3 (12)

May drop the Summoning to 4 and increase the Spellcasting to 6, but yeah. We'll see if I have any concern for Ritual Spellcasting before I settle down on this, and Binding just feels wrong from an ethical standpoint. Other than that, social skills (or the Influence Skill Group at 1) and/or climbing/running/swimming could be taken as needed or desired quickly after chargen. As it stands, this would leave me 21 BP for spells, and I believe I could have a maximum of 10 spells (2x my spellcasting score) or 12 if I raised Spellcasting to 6. Could save even more BP by hunking out certain skills (Infiltration/Shadowing) for spells, and I'll consider if I want to bother doing that.

Getting rid of Shadowing and Infiltration (24 BP) for the Stealth Spell (3 BP) and assuming I already have Improved Invisibility saves me 21 BP.

That's actually a real good set there. Binding isn't 100% necessary I've found(I had a shaman that I wanted to play more oldschool where they did not keep their spirits, so I avoided Binding.) Worked out perfectly fine for me and he still got to use spirits to do cool stuff.

Not sure if Infil/Shadowing are the keepers or Stealth +21 BP. 21 BP you can do a lot with(Athletics Group 1, or Dodge(ranged) something, plus a driving skill or something else.) My guy has both infiltrate and shadowing, but he's also a sam and doesn't have the Stealth spell, nor does a mage have it.

It's also worth noting that spirits can also substitute for skills.

Need to track someone?
Summon a spirit with search and tell them to shadow your target. (not a watcher, they're embarrassingly awful)

Need to scale a building?
Summon a spirit that can fly and have it carry you to the top. (it may need to be moderately high force to lift your fat ass)

Need a random technical or physical skill?
Summon a task spirit and pick that skill as an optional power. (out of the stock traditions, only possessing ones get task spirits)

Honestly, if you need a few points, I'd look at cutting down on Shadowing and Summoning. The real trick with summoning isn't the success test, it's the drain test - unless you really NEED to have many many services on a spirit. I've found in practice that I only use 1-3 services even when I get more, and I average 2 net successes summoning force 5 spirits using a dice pool of 10. I am of course assuming that you're picking up a Power Focus. Caveat: I'm playing a high-body troll. I can afford to botch, try again, then rest for an hour and get all my stun back. You might want to invest in an autodoc and stim patches.

I'd keep the Infiltration up - sometimes people will see through your invisibility, and it's best to be able to raise their threshhold to hear you as well unless you're also running Silence. I also feel you should consider putting a point or two into Etiquette and possibly a point of Dodge (specialization: Ranged).

Have fun picking your spells!

You should also read the (very long) threads on the best spells and why.
One can be found here
The other here

Its a lot of info to digest but it's good stuff.

I was thinking of dropping the Summoning to 4, and perhaps getting rid of the Sustaining Focus (Health) Rank 3 for Pistols 5 and Unarmed 4.

In other words, drop Summoning from 5 to 4, lose the 9 BP Sustaining Focus, and get 13 BP to play with.

I can then put 12 of that BP to upping Pistols from 3 to 5 and Unarmed from 3 to 4.

The last point could be used to get 6 BP (instead of 5) towards other resources.

The main use of the Sustaining Focus (Health) Rank 3 was for the Heal and Increase Reflexes Spell. I figure losing that focus won't change too much if I rely on a Spirit of Man to cast and sustain Increase Reflexes on me (?), and the higher Pistols and Unarmed Skills will be helpful (as well as the 1 extra BP for resources).

The links above for spell selection were quite helpful, by the way.

You know I was thinking of making a mage and a lot of this is helping me out too. Since the OP original made his character human (least I am pretty sure he did) that made me think of another question that maybe you guys can answer. Besides that extra point of edge what else are humans good for? I mean every time I make a character with a human I save points by switching to another race. Elf, oh I save 5 points, ork, wow I saved 10 points, and so on and so forth. I know this is a bit off subject but this has been bugging me a bit and I don't want to start a whole new thread on something that can be answered in one or two posts.

Now on subject, have you also thought about the progression of your character? I mean I know theres a lot of time to think about that but mages burn through karma like a fat kid through cake. Having a plan and knowing at least the general idea of where you want to take him might be good early on to avoid karma that you regret spending.

Just to counter all the people who are praising Binding, remember that it costs. A Force 4 spirit is 2,000:nuyen: gone forever already. It depends how much your team is making, but losing potentially half the income from every run (and earning 2,000:nuyen: less than each of your teammates each run) can be a pain.

Binding is great, but this is often overlooked when people talk in the abstract.

K.

Knasser, you do make an excellent point and this is another aversion to binding I have: 2000 nuyen spent on a disposable item is a bit steep for me (at least to begin with).

As for race choice, I believe some one pointed out I could save some ridiculous amount of BP by being an Ork. In fact, many race choices I'm sure could save me BP. The choice of Human on my part is purely RP, and it's unfortunate that I can't roll around with an Edge of 6 or at least something that takes advantage of my racial 'benefit.'

As for progression of the character, I first see myself spending karma/nuyen on a few spells to round out my character. Even with a choice of 7 (or perhaps eight) spells, I just don't think I'll quite get everything I want (thinking of things like Stunbolt, Stunball, Manabolt, Manaball, Powerbolt, Powerball would all be nice though I could probably not get all of those, now adding on Physical Mask, Improved Invisibility, Stealth, Orgasm, Heal, Increase Reflexes, Analyze Truth, Extended Clairvoyance, Extended Clairaudience, Mana Window, maybe Mana Static but probably not, Levitate, Magic Fingers, Trid Phantasm)... you get the picture on spells.

As for anything else, foci would probably be the key. Sustaining foci so I can keep a Force 5 Physical Mask running, perhaps even Physical Mask/Improved Invis/Stealth running at the same time.

Also, I'd need at least a Force 4 Sustaining Focus (Health) for Increase Reflexes. The thing is, I couldn't see being a serious combatant at all without extra IPs, and although a Sustaining Focus Health (Rank 3) available at chargen would get me 2 more IPs, I'm not sure if it's worth the 9 BP or not.

The other debate I'd had is regarding Power Foci. As nuyen is not as much of a problem for a magician as other characters, I'm wondering if spending 12 BP at chargen is worth a Foce 2 Power Focus. It's a nice bonus, but do I as a character want to run out and grab a higher force one immediately? If that's the case, is it worth the 29 BP (the Restricted Item Quality + 100,000 nuyen + 4 BP for binding) for a Force 4 Power Focus? Should a starting character even have something like that?

The immediate goals of the character would be: Sustaining foci as necessary (running Physical Mask quite often would be nice, etc.), a few (not a ton, a few) extra spells to round out my suite of abilities, and purchasing low levels of social skills as I learn to 'negotiate' in my line of work (perhaps athletics if I get caught needing to climb or run away from stuff, I can justify spending the points then or hitting the gym of course).

After that would be the desire to initiate, increase my Magic attribute, maybe increase other attributes, tweak higher my main skills.

I just build out a spreadsheet for the character and run the numbers for different options. I project what the character will look like every 50 karma or so.

A couple things I would mention.

First about Shadowing, unless you are picking it up as an RP element of your character, mages rarely physically shadow people. As a mage you can always just astrally project and follow someone on the astral plane. If they are mundane they have almost no chance of noticing you. Plus given travel speeds on the astral plane you can follow people who are in cars. This is another reason to have Assensing, once you have assensed someone, you will always recognize their aura again, unless they magically hide it.

Another thing I would say is that you can free up some BP by dropping your Str to 2, and taking Clubs or Blades instead of Unarmed. This might not go with your character idea, but you could do the same damage but save 10BP. Plus if you do a staff you could get +1 reach. Then you could switch your Geas to having to carry a staff (object geas requires 3 unquie characteristics though), then your character would always want to carry a staff, and since he did he learned how to use it.

Another thing, I personally like to go with stunbolt and an AoE physical spell. Reason being is since AoE spells take their AoE range from their force, and you have to use successes to reduce the effect, you will have a hard time doing high powered Stunballs and not hurting friendlies. I could be wrong, but I remember reading that AoE spells need the origin to be LoS, but the effect can hit out of sight. This does mean that if you want to do a 7 meter radius AoE you will have to do a Force 5 physical spell and waste two successes on increasing the effect, but I am fine with that. And you are asking for opinions not facts.

Lastly, though it is a bit of min-maxing, if you want a "back-up" weapon skill, Automatics is better than pistols. Automatics covers assualt rifles, smgs, and machine pistols. Plus you are mostly going to only use your back up weapon when you have too much damage to risk a bad drain rule, which means you will have damage modifiers, which makes wide bursts very helpful.

Thats my 2... or 4 cents.

All great suggestions, DoomFrog.

I'm thinking of keeping the unarmed and strength 3, and the staff is a neat idea but just doesn't suit me.

You are dead-right on the automatics. One area where I'm probably going to be pig-headed and insist on having a sidearm. It just feels, more... right.

I was considering the joys of astral projection and assensing and how they may simply ruin the need for Shadowing at all. It was only primarly taken as an RP decision, and even then it was kept from me cutting down from originally wanting Stealth Group 3 (Disguise and Palming, meh). My only concern with astral projection as shadowing is astral wards conveniently being thrown in my way to let the guy get away or where the hell did I leave my body unattended?

Then again, shadowing is such a risky activity on its own and I could imagine that as long as I have a buddy with me, astrally projecting and leaving my meatsack hanging out next to my buddy to guard it would work fine.

Freeing up 12 BP would be nice.

On the other hand, I've been looking at the efficiency of Foci. I'm really not feeling that any Sustaining Foci are worth it at chargen (even just a Rank 3 Health one for sustaining Force 3 Increase Reflexes during combat, bah) at all, and either a Power Focus Rank 2 or 4 really don't seem worth it (as compared to having more skills at 4 in exchange). This is not based on a BP-to-Karma cost for binding, but more of a BP overall-to-Karma Binding cost. My evaluation from the BP perspective included the monetary cost of the foci, as the story with mages seems to be that they never have enough karma and seem to accumulate excess money (especially if I'm not binding spirits or doing any other money-sink magical activities).

In other words, I evaluated:

Power Focus (Force 2): 12 BP (money+binding) to 16 Karma (ignoring money cost since it's just money and not BP or karma)

instead of Power Focus (Force 2): 2 BP to 16 Karma (based on this perspective, Power Foci are freaking awesome).

That being said, 12 BP spent on raising 3 skills at rank 3 (I have a lot of those noted in above build options) rank 4 is the equivalent of 24 karma.

I guess I would have to ask myself if, as a mage, would 50,000 nuyen equal 8 karma for me? The general feeling I get from forum posts is no...

Definitely go with RP over min-max'ing it always makes the game more fun and interesting.

I just wanted to make sure you were aware of those facts. You seemed to want to know what would make your character "better" in a sense of game mechanics.

But I will mention that you will be kicking yourself half way through your first combat after the street same kills 4 people in the first round with his 3IPs and your stun ball only does 3 boxes and you sit around with your 1 IP. If you plan to be a major spell-slinger during combat you will NEED to have Increased Reflexes up, and -2 dice on all tests (including drain) is not something you are going to want.

.

You're not analyzing what the Power Foci adds to your character propoerly. It adds 2 (or 4) dice to every roll that requires magic (maybe not forcing your way through wards - i'd have to check that). Summoning, Binding, Spellcasting - your bread and butter. + 2 to your magic attribute is worth 20 bp, which is easily 40 karma. Very, very worth the purchase.

Meanwhile look at karma costs for skills. 2x new skill level. Karma cost for attributes? 5x new skill level. Attributes, and items that add to attributes, will always win out from a bp perspective.

So using proper analysis: it's 12 bp for ~71 karma worth of benefits (+2 to magic attribute = 20 karma for magic 5 and 25 for magic 6, + 16 karma to bind. If you have magic 6 already, now we're looking at initiating 2 levels, and THEN buying magic up two more points - the karma numbers get stupid high at that point). Oh and 50k is nothing to laugh at either, especially if you go via black market channels (With the resulting price increases).

I was simply comparing the BP-Karma ratios in regards to the cost of binding an equivalent focus (in terms of karma).

Viewing the item as an upgrade to the Magic attribute (which would also eventually require initiation) is great in terms of justifying its choice over increasing magic/initiating, but the comparison should be BP cost of the focus as compared to karma cost of binding the focus, if we're making a direct comparison. If we're looking at the fact that it's pretty much not feasible to get greater than Magic 5 at chargen (and initiation is not achievable at chargen, either), then a Power Focus is really a way to get those last ounces of capability out of the character. But BP for binding should be compared to Karma for binding, just as BP for increasing a skill from 3-4 is compared to karma for increasing a skill 3-4 when weighing efficiency.

And yes, Increase Reflexes is has always been a must for me if I'm going to be comptetent in combat at all. I'm wondering if I could rely on a Spirit of Man to cast and sustain it for me (via the Optional Power Innate Spell) long enough to get my hands on a Sustaining Focus (Health) Rank 4 or 5.

And yes, ultimately concept rules the day, as long as your character is functional. I'm not particularly looking to min-max here, just weighing efficiency into my evaluations and seeing if the situation still fits my concept.

Why would you not look at the bonus it gives in actual play? Being a mage, the bulk of your rolls are going to use your magic attribute. The +2 will be used over and over again. You would have to play the equivalent of ~15 sessions to get the same +2 to your Magic.

I'm not saying it's not a factor, I'm saying that your comparison went from BP-to-karma directly to BP of one thing to Karma or BP for a completely different thing.

For a direct comparison, one would compare:

-BP cost of a Power Focus to Karma cost for a Power Focus

-BP cost of increasing Magic to Karma cost for increasing Magic

When compared to increasing my Magic from 5 to 7 (BP or karma-wise), a Power Focus probably looks fantastic by comparison. The look was towards efficiency of BP expenditure vs. Karma expenditure, with a cost-benefit analysis coming into play. Initiating and a Magic any higher than 6 aren't possible at chargen. Magic higher than 5 is fairly inefficient (25 BP to 'max' out is inherently inefficient by a considerable amount compared to multiple other options).

Now, if your point was to drive home that outside of a specialization, I have very few ways that aren't karma or BP intensive (quite intensive, I may add for emphasis) to increase the majority of my spellcasting dice pools, then point well taken, sir.

The question is if I can wait until gameplay to pursure a Power Focus instead of scooping up one at chargen. A Power Focus (Force 2) costs 16 karma to bind and however much nuyen (50k?) after chargen, and is much cheaper than initiating one level and increasing Magic to 7 after chargen as well.

Now, once again if we're looking of dice pool maximization out of the gate, Power Focus 2 or even possibly 4 is one of the more efficient ways of pursuing that (considering that I was looking at a character with Magic 5 and Spellcasting 6, for instance, and a Specialization is easy enough to grab after game 1 that it isn't a worry to me having to start). Also factoring in me having a Mentor Spirit, a Power Focus is the only feasible way to go for more dice at chargen OR after.

The question is, is 50k and 16 karma really that much to worry about that I can't wait a few games and get it later? Or in addition, can't I just wait a bit longer and save up for a Power Focus 4 without having to deal with a positive quality I could otherwise do without?