I just noticed the bit on p.50 of Unwired that states commlinks, vehicles and other wireless nodes act to extend the matrix in areas without dedicated MSP nodes. (yeah, that's the very definition of a mesh network but SR4 hasn't been real good at sticking to real-world concepts)

As far as I can tell, that pretty much makes a retrans unit obsolete. Which wouldn't be as much of an issue if there wasn't a retrans drone *in* Unwired.

Retrans units are essentially Electronic Warfare toys that can help Riggers in areas where there is no wireless, or where they expect to encounter heavy jamming resistance. Also works well paired with Non-Standard Wireless link to run somewhat hidden.

Could the Rigger use a Satellite Link in those situations? Sure, but both nodes would have to be equipped with one, and it adds lag time (reduces Response if I remember correctly, rules-wise) that may be detrimental to the health and welfare of both your drones and teammates.

I think the real advantage (as Kingboy mentioned) is for establishing a long-range network independent of the Matrix and other users that can operate despite jamming.

No, I think he means that any device with a Signal rating can act as a retransmitter and thus a dedicated "Retrans" unit isn't necessary.

Well you could sit back, send a retrans drone out to the edge of your signal, and then do your dirty work from the safty of the extra distance. Add in several drones chained together and some open space and you could be blocks away from the action in a city, or miles away in open terrain.

Even better you load up your drone with all sorts of crazy IC and only accept external signals through your drone. Someone hacking your system? Cut the connection to the drone and the hacker's cut off.

The key benefit I see from a retrans drone is mobility. You control where you signal extends too instead of hoping your target makes it within your signal range.

A retran drone would also have a higher bandwidth then a mesh net of different commlinks. At least you would think so. I'm going to have to go back over the rules to check.

Because having a very long cable of Fiber Optic line to stay safe and sound at home base is just too easy to trace back to you.

The part that really should embarass the repeater drone is that it doesn't even do that good a job of it. Most of the other minidrones could be modified to be just as good as signal repeaters for less than the cost of buying a repeater drone.

Anything with a signal of 6 will do all the things a retrans unit will. The wireless matrix is repeatedly stated to have functionally infinite bandwidth. Every wireless device is fully routable, even to traffic that does not have legitimate access to that node. The Retrans Unit is a cool idea, but as far as I can tell, the only use for it is getting a Signal 6 node at character creation without having to burn a feat for Restricted Gear.

It ha uses but they are lacking. If playing in an open environment retrans units are useful. If only as you can set them to directional with a decent signal hard to hack to notice the drone thats reallying from one fixed point a long way away. However I would houserule them to be better.

It is also cheaper than a boosted commlink, isn't it?

By the RAW matrix connections have near-infinite bandwidth. IRL a mesh network is capable of providing more bandwidth and possibly lower latency depending on the number of links and their routes.

I'm going from memory here (at work without books,) but I recall noticing this last week while playing with "subtle drones" ideas.

By my reading of the SRA modified rules: A drone can normally only have it's signal rating boosted to Base (drones tend to be 2 or 3) +2, so it would cap at 4 or 5.
The SRA adds in an upgrade ($1,000) that lets you use any response or signal you want to plug in. Uses up 1 slot.
Then you could install a Signal 6, which is $3,000 ($4,000 & 1 slot total.)
Retrans is $4,000 and is effectively a signal 6 using up 1 slot.

The main diffrence:
A retrans unit is a second Signal rating, so a Drone with Pilot 3 and a Retrans has both Signal 3 and Signal 6. I don't know how often that would be important, other then say jamming on the fly.
A retrans unit does not let you upgrade the Response.
Retrans is easier to get your hands on then an off the shelf Signal 6, which is important at character creation.

Blackjaw... I read it a little bit differently.

I agree w/ the first part... it's basically a way for any piece of electrical gear to get signal rating 6 and mechanically it's identical to buying the upgrade for 1000, then buying the 3000 signal chip. (since SR4a came out after, I'd consider that mod route superceding this one in fact as it does the same thing for the same cost and allows for higher and lower grade signal upgrades).

PreSR4a: it was pointless, because it' was cheaper to just upgrade signal to 6 using a signal upgrade which didn't eat up space
PostSR4a: another mod appears w/ identical cost which allows for wider selection of signal upgrades.


On the second part, I completely disagree, from a mechanical perspective... it makes no sense for the drone to have two signal ratings. From a mechanics perspective of the matrix, all devices operate as retrans anyhow. And if the retrans did pick something up, there's zero reason it couldn't talk internally w/ the drone effectively replacing the drones signal as it's outright betterin all aspects.

It's only purpose in life is to give signal6+ to devices which normally couldn't have it.

On the last point, I think you found it's only advantage, it's the only way to get signal 6 out of chargen. As the signal chip is 16, it's only a 12. Though w/ the upgrade mod in SR4a... I'd eliminate it and ignore it, rather than leave a signal6 out of chargen loophole.

To revisit my point: if you rely on mesh networking to extend your range you have no control over what frequencies and channels your signal is being routed through, meaning any amount of area jamming (your's or your enemy's) will fuck up your ability to command your drones. If you use a retrans unit you can create a long range network that is unaffected by your jamming and easier to protect from enemy jamming.

That is what a retrans unit is good for.

... and I'll revisit mine. Any drone with a Signal 6 can do the job of a Retrans unit: it can repeat the signals of any network, the "public matrix" or a private network of just your drones. The change in SR4A the limits Signal upgrades puts a Retrans unit back into the realm of "useful" since (as Blackjaw pointed out) it is cheaper if all you want is a drone with a Signal of 6.

I don't see our answers as mutually exclusive. He didn't ask "Whats the most cost effective way to extend my network range?" He asked "What is the retrans unit good for?" I would argue that having 2 viable options for extending signal range (retrans unit and signal 6 commlink) doesn't make one or the other "obsolete" (to use kingmatzomat's word) any more than mages make shaman obsolete, adepts make cybersams obsolete or the Ares Alpha makes all the other ARs obsolete. They are just different options.

Retrans helps for Slaving your drones at range. Since it just forwards the signal it keeps the subscription connect directly to the Commlink of the Rigger.

You can't Slave the Non-retrans drone cause it would forward all your subscribe requests back to you.

Think of the Retrans as a way extend your PAN. Without it you would have to beef up your inbetween drones to prevent hacking.

Also the Repeater drone is about 1k less then the mod and has multiple transmitters built in which still leaves you with 4 more mods you can do.

Another use is to sit outside a build that is wireless proof and beam a laser link though a window to your repeater drone. Now you have a signal inside the building and continue rigging from your car.

That's an interesting point. Without a Retrans unit, you would need to slave the "end point" drone to the repeater drone which is in turn slaved to your Commlink. If the repeater drone has a Retrans unit, the "end point" drone can continue to be slaved just to your Commlink. I think in the end its a wash as far as being hacked goes (the intruder still needs to hack into your Commlink) but it would make a slight difference in tracking Subscription slots and such.

You could always mod up the Retrans drone with laser/microwave links too, in order to have less hackable communication between the Retrans unit and the drones it is supporting. Easier to use those sort of things when they are in a Retrans Blimp parked over the combat zone with (hopefully) clear lines of sight.

1) Can get it at character creation
2) Doesn't eat up a slot that could be spent on some other more useful trick
3) Bypass wifi inhibiting paint without wasting another more useful drone

As I said you can't slave the non-retrans to your commlink as it would not pass the other signals to anything other then yourself.

Retrans and not to retrans is only important if you use slaving to help protect your drones. If you don't then bouncing signal with another drone is fine but the subscriptions list is based on your 2xresponse of the intermediate drones and not your comm.

Non-retrans Cons

Can't slave your drones.
Limited to your intermediate drones response for number of subscribe channels.
Your Icon is in two places (intermediate drone and your commlink.)
Your Intermediate drone becomes the Hub of your Pan....

Retrans Cons.

Cost you extra mod slot and 4k + extra drone.

However, the Repeater Drone is only Signal 4.

You don't need to subscribe to something to route traffic. If every piece of hardware in the matrix that was routing traffic opened a subscription for every packet it relayed, the entire system would crash as every device with 37 nodes within range of it would instantly drop to a Response of 0.

Every matrix accessible device has a constant flow of traffic through it because of how the wireless matrix works. Slaving a device means that only the master can connect to the software running the node, not that only the master can send traffic through the wireless antenna.

Nope you don't. You can send your commcode calls anywhere you want without subscribing it. But you have no control of the path it take to get to your buddy who is standing next to you. Its a mesh as it moves it switches where it comes from..as it gets closer to other nodes and further from one...to have it do anything else requires a subscription to control the path it takes. You can send a command signal to the pilot this way and be no worse then anything other method....

BUT You can't remote control or Jump-in to a drone without subscribing to it. Thus to use the a Drone as a router without Retrans. You have to Subscribe to the router drone then Subscribe the Router drone to Drone you wish to control...thus your icon is in 2 places...your commlink and the router drone.

The Retrans is a dedicated router unit that take a signals from one area to another bridging the to nodes without the stops inbetween. Thus a subscription passes through it with no problem as it is dedicated to routing your signals.

Hence all the talk about PANs. Without a Retrans, you end up making the commlink the slave...and one of your drones as the PAN Hub. Thus your Icon is in the Drone Router and commlink. Not bad thing just makes you in two places at once...which only dangerous if someone hacks your drone and decides to attack you in both nodes with an agent.

I thought subscribing can be done at any range as long as you have a link (signals within range, both on the matrix, laser link, or any combination there of.) Subscribing includes encrypted connections for example, and I don't get the impression you can't have an encrypted connection unless your within each others signal range. How do off-site security spiders do there thing?

Do you have a page number / reference for limited subscription ranges?

You don't need to be within mutual signal range of a device to subscribe to it. If you did, no hacker could hack anything over the matrix, because they wouldn't be able to subscribe to the nodes they wanted to invade without being within signal range of them.

Instead, they subscribe to the node they want to be active in, and rely on the mesh network of the matrix to route all the traffic between them and the node they are subscribed to. Rigging works exactly the same way. You subscribe to the device you want to jump in to or remote control, and the two way flow of traffic finds its' way through the mesh network of the matrix automagically, regardless of where you are, and where the drone is, as long as there is a continuous, unbroken chain of devices between the two of you.

Edit:
Check out the rules for subscriptions on pg224 of SR4A. By the way, making a commcall is actually a subscription, because it is a two way flow of data between a specific pair of nodes.

A subscription is from page 224 of SR4A


From page 54 unwired, you can't route though a hidden or Passive node, also:


Typically you are running all your drones in hidden mode...which makes them non viable for matrix routing...only Subscribing (my take on it)

Again if you don't slave you can still route and run though the matrix.

The Repeater Drone from Unwired is a different beast than a retrans unit. Yes the signal is only 4, but it comes equipped with a Directional Antenna, which makes the effective signal for units in the antennas path 6 (4+2 bonus from the antenna). What the Repeater Drone does not come equipped with, strangely enough, is a Retrans Unit (unless this has been added in some errata I am unfamiliar with). The "radio signal repeater" it comes with is not the same thing, rules wise, and is in fact rather a mess. Why they didn't just give it a Retrans Unit (and perhaps the other gear, for security's sake) and be done with it I don't know.

I'll admit I wasn't clear about any mentions I made earlier to a "retrans drone". What I had in mind when mentioning that was something like a modified Stormcloud floating overhead, not necessarily the Repeater Drone.

Those page references... yeah, they don't mean what you think they mean.


This means that you can subscribe to a node or device (including slaving) if both of them have access to the Matrix as a whole - you explicitly do not need to be in mutual Signal range, although that's another method that works just fine.


This one has nothing to do with active/passive/hidden nodes; it just means that all the routing is handled invisibly by the infrastructure of the Matrix. If a user in Seattle wants to look up some info from the main branch of the New York City public library, his datatrail is going to pass through hundreds or thousands of nodes on the way. However, it's all done on the routing level and he doesn't actually perceive or interact with these intermediate nodes at all - from his persona's perspective, he makes one hop from his home node to the library's node and that's it. I don't remember reading anywhere that a passive or hidden node is unusable for routing purposes; routing happens on a level that most of the game mechanics ignore.

So your take is that a retrans unit on a drone lets it route connections even if the drone with the retrans unit is in hidden mode, compared with just a signal 6 upgrade which doesn't?

I don't buy it, at that point you might as well duct tape a signal 6 commlink to the drone and call it a repeater node.

If it were to operate specifically like that, acting as a wholly new node, running it's own app/firewall/etc.. while the drone does it's own thing. Then it is functionally no different than placing a second commlink on the thing.


As far as drones go and forwarding connections. There's no reason your drones couldn't open encrypted links to other drones using a subscription. (drones have tons of extra subscriptions if you stop and think, they rarely use more than 1 to 3... 1 for the controller, and a few extra for sensor data if a tacnet or similar is in play). At that point, you have a defacto encrypted network running on hidden nodes. Hidden to me, means it doesn't participate in the matrix at large, only talking to other devices which specifically know of it's existence.

From page 54 unwired, you can't route though a hidden or Passive node.



You see they did that when they made the Retrans modification in arsenal ....they even put a cost to it for you with thresholds for install and slots it takes up. Its just does not need an independent firewall since it uses the drone as the master hub for the slaved Retrans (this was a way of looking at it.)

All they did in Arsenal is make it so there is a cost (price) for extending the range of your drone network. You can do it the other ways everyone mentioned here too...but they say that using the routing method would allow your signal to go though the matrix. If you don't mind that then no worries.

Though I think routing though a drone in hidden would have to take up a subscription slot for each routing and one for the master commlink.

But if you don't mind broadcasting your drone signals to the matrix for any kid hacker with idle hands to mess with then using the drone with out a retrans is the way to go.

So the no routing rule is from an expansion.


NightJackal:
Your post makes no sense... retrans is for all practical intents and purposes, EITHER a signal upgrade of the drone. OR it's a second commlink in it's own right. There is no 'sharing' of any system or signal unless it modifies/replaces the drones own signal rating. If it shares the same firewall, then it is from a security context the same system.

Though to be honest I can think of something which could use it. If it's a valid mod for RFID tags, that's kinda scary (one hell of a signal.. though it should drain the battery in short order).

As far as forming a private hidden network. That's exactly what I said... eat up a subscription for each drone/commlink used in the web within signal range of each other. Which limits the size of the web, but does allow for a nice hidden mesh functionality. There's another drawback in there as well, an enemy decker who breaks into one of your drones could pick up the list of other hidden nodes and attack them as well. So my point was it was an interesting tactic w/ some benefits and drawbacks.

Your last paragraph... no... your over the air signals are ALWAYS available to anyone w/ a sniffer/radio scanner. The only way to prevent people from getting in is to run a fiber from you to the drone. And you can do the same thing w/o using a rare modification slot (most drones only have 4) and just upgrading the signal chip. If they're encrypted, the only thing which prevents people from getting at them is if the data is only time sensitive so that by the time someone decrypts, it doesn't matter.

Quite frankly, I like including a radio scanner as part of the sensor suite because it counts as sniffer software, but doesn't use up a valuable software slot when you do it that way. Only counts against your sensor capacity.

Sorry my post sucked...

Anyways retrans unit is a dicated signal repeater that acts like the router of the commlinks. Its needed if you want to extend the range and not daisy chain a bunch of drones together nothing more. Its not an upgrade to the drones signal as its not related to to what controls the drone as its a separate unit.

/shrug

This is not necessarily true. The Satellite Link gives a node (including properly modified drones) the ability to use direct satellite uploading/downloading, which in game terms gives it a Signal rating of 8 while using satellites to connect to the Matrix or other nodes. Similarly the Non-Standard Wireless Link is a plugin radio module that allows a node to connect to the Matrix or other nodes through deprecated signal channels at whatever Rating it is purchased at. In both cases the Signal rating of the node remains the same (Signal Rating 3 in the cases of most drones as they are typically Device Rating 3 nodes). If you choose not to use the SatLink or NSWL for whatever reason, the Signal Rating of the device reverts to the rating of the Signal hardware installed in the node itself.

A Retrans Unit is similar, in that it is an optional radio transmission system seperate from the Signal rating of the vehicle/drone node it is installed in that is used for a specific purpose. It's not replacing the Signal of the node in question, it is supplementing it with a second, purpose built transmission unit that be controlled and handled perfectly well by the nodes preexisting System (in this case Pilot).