It was an example, AE. Calm down already. The media has its hold on the world, and it won't let go. So until somebody gets the media to start calling it by the right terms, it will always be a "clip" in the eyes of the general public.

And, yes, people are stupid enough to not figure out the difference between a box magazine and an internal magazine. If you've ever worked retail, you know what I'm talking about.

I like drugs, sex, theft, and gambling.. Discuss..

There, now we've covered just about every vice imaginable..

As I stated both previously and clearly, it's unlikely that you can swap magazines between different pistols. For example, two people, one with his Morrissey Alta and the other with her Colt Manhunter, are pinned down behind cover. If one runs empty, he or she cannot grab magazines from the other. And you sure as hell cannot do it if one is armed with an LMG and the other with a pistol. I think it was only written down as 5¥ for magazines in the book for pricing purposes, and not categorized as a single item for reasons of functionality. I don't think I can explain any slower or clearer, so past that, you're on your own.

And wired reflexes make a hell of a lot more sense than a basic motor function in combat taking far more or far less time (or, in this case, both) than it would in real life. I can't beat up on the magic system for being unrealistic because we don't have magic, but I can beat up on the reloading system for being dumb because I know how to reload a 1911, and this will not change a bit in 60 years. As for magic or wired creating artistically unpleasant game dynamics, that's neither here nor there, but the fact remains that this is not about suspension of disbelief, but suspension of even the smallest amount of intellectual capacity.

edit: read your post, and no, my problem is not with the mental command portion of Smartlink. Merely that there's no use for it to begin with, as the entire system was designed with the misconception that people just slapped mag releases and let the things fall to the ground (just watch any bad action movie, really).

I'm calm. The last line could've used a smiley.

My current problem is that I'm having one of my good moods. It won't last for long. I ought to reach complete understanding of the limitless idiocy of humankind in a few hours. Hilarity will ensue.

BTW, I know nothing about the PETA other than that they have ads with a nude Dominique Swain in them. Thanks to that, and the fact that I do not have to deal with their (possible) crap because I live in a different country, I rather like the organization.

Arethusa: Would you say releasing a magazine and putting it back into a magazine pouch is a Complex Action? That's what I've been thinking.

I totaly agree that there is no basis in RL or SR for different weapons being able to switch mags. Even if they're in the same, and I use the term loosely, class. I was merely wondering where the thought came from. You appeared to be responding to someone's post. Or its a thought that has been bothering you for a while. I know how that is.

OK. Between your two posts and AEs comments, I think I got it:

Instead of, "Same goes for Smartlink and its free action mag release, which, again, makes little to no fucking sense if you want to play realistically."

What you should have said was, "There's no fucking way it takes that long to press the mag release. Thats makes no sense. Its unrealistic."

Or you could have switched it up a number of ways simply by placing the colorful and everpopular "fucking" in different positions, thus letting us know how strongly you felt about the free vs. simple action of "eject clip". You could even say "eject mag".

Or in your most recent post you could have said: "Yes, AE. Thats what I meant. Thank you for explaining it in terms Kevyn668 could understand. He's a bit slow, you know." and then place your choice of smiley to indicate whether you truly do think I'm slow or if you agree with me in that you were vague w/ your earlier post.

I think the problem here might be that you were talking about large capacity rifle box magazines exclusively, whereas I was talking about all magazine springs in general, then a 1911 pistol mag specifically. That's what the whole "given, it's only a 7 round mag" comment was there for. I wasn't comparing rifle mags to pistol mags, I was simply relaying an experience I've had with one type of magazine.

My point was to illustrate that some magazines can stay loaded for very extended periods of time while others won't handle it near as well, even magazines of the same design made by a different manufacturer. I also agreed with you about the high cap rifle mags and their disinclination to feed correctly toward the bottom of the ammo stack. I agree with you that it's probably not a good idea to leave high capacity rifle mags loaded for years at a time, especially the kind that go in particularly finnicky rifles like the AR15 and variants. However, I'm sure it's been done innumerable times, and I'm sure it's worked just fine a great deal of those times. Please refer to Aus's comments.

PS: The spring in one of my 7 round 1911 magazines is nearly identical in design to the spring used in one of my 30 round AKM mags. They're even the same gauge wire. The differences are the length and diameter of the springs, and most importantly, how much compression they're under when the magazine is fully loaded. The AKM mag spring is under far more compression, which means that it will fatigue faster than the 1911 mag.

I have two 30-round AKM magazines that have been loaded and in storage since late October. I'm pretty sure they'll work just fine once I put them to use again, but I'll be happy to let you know if they don't.

I was, actually. Back on the first page:

I should have quoted this to begin with, considering I waited some two hours to respond. My apologies if that got confusing as a result. That said, you are obviously stupid, remarkably dense, and very annoying, and I despise you for reasons I have yet to compose, but I am quite sure that, when I do, they will be clear, forceful, and compelling, and you will be forced to agree.

And, yes, Austere Emancipator. That's what I meant. Thank you for explaining it in terms Kevyn668 could understand. He's a bit slow, you know. And since you internet Cute Nazis must have your way with me, just this once:

Anyway, seems that that's cleared up with a minimum of fuss and injury.

I do. I personally would somewhat like for it to be more significant, but it's a bit unfair to say that an unwired person should take more than 3 seconds for the task, and in deference to them, I don't think it can be taken any further without getting a bit silly. At most, though, might be able to get away with simple action to remove the mag and a subsequent complex action to jam the thing in a pouch. As a side note, I'm rather fond of the idea of breaking up reloading into various smaller actions and assigning them certain lengths of time (eg. simple action to remove your pistol mag, complex action to stash it, complex action to grab a new one, and simple action to release the slide— or alternatively, free action to release the slide and complex action to fully rack it). But, as you can imagine, it's not exactly compatible with Shadowrun's action system, and would require something that allows for a bit more detail.

There can be several reasons that this can take much longer in combat.

You will probably not have a full magazine in your other hand (we were using both hands to control our weapon, weren't we?). So you'll need to get it of your magaine pouch.

You will probably be cowering behind something. You don't want to reload in a 'range stance' in the middle of an open area, so you will probably be crounched or lying down behind something, depending on how you are contorted reloading may take a bit of extra time.

In combat it is like that you are going to be breathing fast (your hands will shake, from slightly to alot) making the normally simple action of getting the magaine out of the pouch and into the magazine well that much harder.

In combat, reloading may not be occupying your whole attention, so things like making sure you don't have the magaine backwards, or you have ejected the old magaine first, or something else 'silly' like that might delay you further.

Mud. If you are in the infanty, God will have arranged for there to be a lot of mud where you happen to be, even if you are in normally mud free places like New York City or Antartica. Since it will have invariably gotten on your hands, on your weapon, into your magainze pouch, and so on. Your hands might slip on the magazine, and you may have to 'tap out' or wipe the magaine to reduce your chances of a misfeed.

While individually, none of these things might increase your time that much, they usually all come at once.

Depending upon how well trained and prepared your are for combat. One of the points of training with firearms is to make these kinds of tasks as subconcious as possible so you can concentrate on other things. Anyone can be overwhelmed depending on the circumstances, and the average soldier is well under-trained. Still, dirt, loud noises and incoming fire do not, by default, turn all into hopeless, fumbling puddles of terror. At some point you learn how to classify your fear and work with it. Willpower tests and all that.

I thought you guys might want to see how quick mag changes can be done. Here's video of Todd Jarrett shooting and changing magazines . Given, he's a like a skill level 8 in Shadowrun terms (and is, of course, not under the stress of combat).

Some magazines are designed to drop free from the firearm (see the video linked above) without hassle and include replaceable bumper pads so that the mag can be dropped directly on the floor with very little to no threat of damage. There are a few companies that make add-on bumpers that slip over existing rifle magazines to serve the same purpose as well as provide an easy place to grab the mag should it not drop free (like the MagPul). About half the time you see a picture of SWAT or specops operators, they've got these things on their mags.

Yeah, cause those magazines I worked with most certainly were of the "30 round, assault rifle" type, and actually have longer springs/more spring depression because they were 7.62x39 instead of 5.56x45.

I do it pretty much like Siege said for pistols, as long as the characters had the mags easily available. If not, that's an additional Single Action. For assault rifles, it's a Complex Action unless the character has done significant preparations (fighting from a position with a fresh magazine laid out next to the gun for example). And then the additional Complex Action if you wish to put the empty back into a magazine pouch.

(emphasis mine)

Sounds like you've composed several clear, forceful, and compelling reasons... But, I still choose to not agree w/ you.

That being said, I agree w/ your ideas about stashing the empty mag. It should be a pain in the ass. I always assumed that the simple action of replacing the clip was just that and had nothing to do w/ keeping the freshly ejected one. I figure they just fall to the floor. I've never been in a gun fight in RL, but in SR my chars don't worry about keeping the empties during the fight. If I won and have a minute, I'd scoop up the empties and haul ass. But if the bullets are still flying and I have to leave in a hurry, well, screw the empty mag...they only cost 5 . Maybe thats why they're so cheap. They're meant to be disposable do the high degree of violence in SR.

BTW:

I don't think I've heard the words "cute" and "Nazis" in the same sentence before...

If you think that sucks, when you're a mage you actually need to pay for chalk for that quick Hermetic Circle you want.

Well hurray for you!

You get a cookie!!

Anything else you would like to preen about?

Your not convincing me.

Next time I trip over newspapers excreted from the anus of Rupert Murdoch's "fair and balanced" media empire, I'll think of you

You didn't comment on it in any way, you just commented on Raygun's example. So I thought maybe you didn't notice it, or maybe you noticed it and didn't consider it to be addressed at you. So I reminded you again. Wouldn't consider that "preening", but whatever.

So what kind of proof do you want? If you wish, I can ask for some of my army mates to make up Dumpshock Accounts. Unfortunately the Finnish Defense Force does not actively advertise it's extremely old gear.

I can think of a couple reasons to keep your mags.

1. They cost money. It may only be 5¥, but that still adds up over time and you should never waste a logistical resource if possible.
2. Letting a clip fall to the ground makes noise. Noise that can turn you into a bullet magnet. Best reloading technique I've ever seen was letting the empty mag fall into the hand holding the full one and then reload. Fast, efficient and quiet. You can let the slide drop when you have a target resolution.
3. Evidence. The more evidence you leave behind, the greater the chance of getting caught. This is the most critical as a shadowrunner.

I didn't say they were the same spring. I said that they were basically the same design of spring with very minor differences in terms of design. The size of the springs differ greatly, as does the pressure they're under at maximum compression. Other than that, I think I agreed with everything you said.

Christ, dude. It's not the end of the world. No one is calling you a liar. No need to get bent out of shape because people have had different experiences than you. Like I said, some magazines crap out. It happens. It's happened to me. Other magazines are extremely reliable. It happens. It's happened to me. Apparently, 30-round 7.62x39mm AK-style magazines and 7-round 1911 magazines are particularly good designs. I guess I can say the same for Lee-Enfield magazines, Ruger 10/22 magazines, and Colt Woodsman magazines. I cannot, in great confidence, say the same about most NATO 4179 (M16/SA80) magazines.

If you're not convinced by what two people in an internet forum are saying, good. Skepticism is generally a good thing to stick to in places like these. But I have no reason to lie to you.

Each gun leaves it's own tell tale marks on the mag. Forensics can ID the weapon that way. My Steyr GB is notorious for making minute scratches on just the left front top on the mag and someone else I know doesn't have that issue. Every weapon is going to have these little manufacturing inconsistencies that are just as damaging as your own fingerprints.

Shell casings aren't a problem if you go caseless... which you should in that line of work.

I do agree. Mags are woefully cheaper than they should be. Cripes, 10-round mags for my SVD cost $40 a pop. I'm not even going to mention how much they cost for my Steyr.

Um, you did see the part about bullets still flying, right? I added emphasis incase it was too subtle...

1) 5 . I'd have to leave 100s if not 1000s for it to make a difference. Also, when being shot at, I have bigger concerns on my mind than conserving resources. Sometimes I do let RL spill into my game...
2) It does make noise. But you probably wouldn't hear it over all the gunfire. I like your idea about the hand holding the full mag catching the empty one but that sounds like there should be a test of some sort. Quickness, maybe. The only thing is some clips are pretty big...and I don't mean to get personal, but how big are your hands?
3) meh, if I screwed up enough (or it was simply a GM plot device) to be in the middle of a firefight in the first place, one more piece of evidence isn't going to make or break me. Besides, how many players out there have had characters that beat a murder rap? More likely, its 3-9 counts of 2nd degree murder, 10 counts of reckless endangerment, possesion of illegal weapons/cyberware/magic. Use of illegal weapons/cyberware/magic. 8 counts of destruction fo private property. 6 counts destruction of public property. Resisting arrest. Assaulting an officer of the law. 2 counts of trespassing. Etcetera, etcertera, drek-cetera....

So, that clip really doesn't matter. If they catch you, you're done.

BTW: does anyone make regular rolls for crime scene investigators? Or are there canon rules for this?

I've seen alot of posters make refference to getting caught this way. I figure unless you do something stupid, I'll assume your character knows enough not to leave obvious clues. More power to you if you say things like, I make extra sure not leave any clues. Then again, my group is full of newbs so I don't set the bar that high yet.

One magazine extra with a new pistol is pretty much standard practice. And, while they're easier to load to -1 capacity, if the mag and gun are of sufficient quality, you shouldn't have any feed problems at full capacity. Also, do you mean stripper clip?

Edit: you're talking about stripper clips. There's no such thing as a charger clip. And you can't really load an Enfield by removing the mag— or, more accurately, you can, but it requires a bit of disassembly first, and is not exactly practical, assuming you're talking about a classic Enfield rifle like the No. 4 (made famous by such wars as the second big one everyone talks about from time to time).

The only time this (weapon malfunction) would come up in my games is with the Rule of Ones, and even then it isn't a guaranteed thing.

I'm just going to go on assuming that in 60 years, most gun manufacturers will have "wisened up" and quit making guns that can't even shoot a measely 1,000 rounds without jamming. In -30 degrees celsius, barrel full of sand and rusted through.

If I did use rules for weapon malfunctions, I'd roll a die every X rounds, with a cumulative TN of Y, where both X and Y are determined by the "Reliability Factor" of the gun. The RFs would probably just be Very, Quite, Mediocre, Not very, M16A1 or something similar.

Strange, but I never got that impression. I use it as any type of bad luck, from tires blowing out to guns malfunctioning to spells misfiring to the face's fly being open. I don't recall anything in canon that states that the implimentation of the Rule of Ones is solely due to character error.

Funny how this didn't get commented on earlier... There is no "HK MP" (AFAIK). The only pictures of a USP with a larger-than-normal magazine was an obvious fake, with an extra magazine cut/pasted underneath the real magazine. There certainly does not seem to be any way to easily convert a USP for automatic fire (which MP would imply).

The Glock "MP" is the Glock 18, and I'm pretty sure using the 33-round magazine on a regular Glock 17 wouldn't be too much of a problem.