Stunball 'em to knock 'em out, then while they're unconscious, very carefully draw some blood. Get 'em mixed up as an aerosol by your friendly neighborhood whoever-the-fuck, and the toss out Ghoul grenades!

Hilarity ensues!

And Patrick -- apology accepted, and my own apology extended if I was snarky in return to your snarkiness (and I probably was). Everyone has bad days.

True, and I guess it's good for drones and other physical targets as well.

Or,it could be you just happened to share the same user name as one of the freelancers...
But, then again, I tend to see things in an unofficial location like this as a lot more "don't believe anyone"
then other places. I mean, I do not trust that Adam is really Adam Jury, or Tiger Eyes is really Ms. Harding...
since there are, to my knowledge, no actual safeguards...we are really just taking their word for it(and that
they have access to an Avatar that, to my knowledge, is not accessible to common fans). So, good news! My
skepticism is not just leveled at you! I do not trust ANYONE on here!

Wow! God! It must suck to live in your world! Not trusting anyone...



And after you use your ghoul grenades, then you'll have every corp and/or government breathing down your neck.

Trust but verify.

Well, this IS a Shadowrun-Board after all . .

Not for long, if they are actually breathing that stuff . .

I understand that there are other concerns. I'm starting with one part, which I think does not match with the flavor text given to the disease. The disability for 70 days is actually on par with the old system where you would be sick for two to three months.

The Ghoul infection, however, is an exception - the disease halts when you reach 1.0 Essence Loss & complete transformation. Thus, the symptoms cannot last more than 10 days (need not be consecutive).

I would dispute this. In the example on Augemtnation p. 130 the disease "has run its course", but the effects linger. So, I do not think you can interprete "halts" as stopping the effects as well.

Augmentation, p. 130:

Chun has been on a working vacation in Asamando,
and the Lagos necropolis hasn’t been overly kind to him.
After making a particularly poor choice amongst the local
culinary options, Chun (Body 2) has come down with
a case of botulism. The onset catches Chun by surprise 6
hours later, when he has to make a Disease Resistance
Test. Chun rolls no hits and suffers the debilitating effects
of botulism at Power 4: malaise, nausea, and paralysis.
At this point, Chun is in a bad way. This is not enough
to paralyze him (Chun’s Reaction of 4 is not exceeded), or
to incapacitate him with nausea (Chun’s Willpower of 5
is not exceeded), but it’s pretty close. With crippling agony
and a potentially fatal infection on his hands, Chun picks
up some strong antibiotics (Rating 6). The next time the
botulism takes effect, he is benefiting from them, rolling 6
extra dice on his resistance rest.
At the second test (12 hours after infection), Chun
rolls his 8 resistance dice and gets 3 hits. Unfortunately
the Power of the disease is 8 for this test (Power 4 plus the
unresisted Power 4 from the first test), which means that
Chun only reduces it to 5. Unfortunately, this now exceeds
Chun’s Reaction and he is paralyzed. He collapses in the
corner and has no choice but to hope for the best and let the
disease run its course.
After the botulism’s Speed runs out (the third
minimum test) again in 6 hours, Chun makes another resistance
test, rolling 8 dice thanks to the antibiotics again.
He gets another 3 hits, but the botulism is now peaking
and its accumulated power is 9 (Power 4 + unresisted
Power 5 from the last test). He only reduces it to 6, which
exceeds his Willpower, so Chun spends the next 6 hours
paralyzed and in crippling nausea. The disease has now
run its course, though, and all that is left is recovery.
On the next test, Chun only gets 2 hits, but he’s only
facing Power 6 now, so he reduces it to 4. He’s no longer
paralyzed and is back on his feet, if still sick. In another
6 hours he makes a final test, getting 4 hits, reducing the
remaining Power to 0, and finally kicking the disease.

hi hi

It is interesting that with diseases like botulism we have an analogue to the real world. Botulism, if untreated, can kill more then 50% of the people who contract it, but in Shadowrun you really cant die from it at all. Malaria, on the other hand, supposedly has as high as a 20% fatality rate in real life, and in Shadowrun a power of 3. I think it is safe to say that a power of 8 is super effective.

(a side note, anyone find it odd that tuberculosis is incurable? does that mean once you get it, your character has it forever?)

I think you are on to something here. I don't think that there are any specific rules like those for Sleep Deprivation being applied to hunger and thirst (please point them out to me if you can find them). The closest would be a Survival test. At the level of incapacitation, there is little chance of anyone being able to survive and it gets worse as the disease progresses. An average unattended person(Bod 4, Will 4) would probably die from thirst and starvation by the time he gets to the 10th day.

So the person who has botulism would die of dehydration if he is unattended. (survival test) while being paralysed

Not strange at all...IIRC there are some strains of tuberculosis that are resistant to the antibiotics of choice. Given Shadowrun's bleak perspective on everything in general it doesn't seem so far-fetched.

Further to the power debate. Influenza has a power of 2 and a speed of 12 hours(14). It notes that deadly flu might have a power of 6 but this is clearly, from a mathematical stand-point, bull drek.

Standard influenza, in an average human who does not seek medical attention, will kill by the end of day six.

A Body 3 human will, on average, accumulate 1 point of power every twelve hours until he goes into overflow on day four and starts taking physical damage. If, for whatever reason, he is unable to get medical attention at this point he has no more than two days to live. By this time he is not only disorientated but fading in and out of consciousness.

The combination of the three mechanics, speed, power and accumulation, creates a very deadly system that does not need to rely on jacking power through the roof to be effective.

It strikes me as a very knee-jerk, DnD-esque, design attitude that thinks 'I want this to be very deadly. I know, I'll crank the Power up to 11!'.

(I'm talking here about the way high level DnD (3.5) Monsters were 'balanced' by just lumping more and more Natural Armour onto them.)

If you really want to revamp the mechanic perhaps look at making the first test an 'infection' test. Nobody comes into contact with the flu and instantly comes down with full blown influenza, they either fight off the initial infection, and suffer no symptoms at all, or they don't and catch the flu.

That might be a very good idea.

You should get away with it. You'll only be paralysed 2 days on average, you could survive that, depending on how much vomiting you did in the first six hours...

Depends on the condition in which the person gets botulism. If it is a favourable condition, ie otherwise good health, good surroundings ect. The person is likely to survive, but if he gets it while camping or when injured, things go bad after that.

Remember the -3/-4 penalty on physical actions also acts as a modifier on survival checks.

Depends on how you handle dehydration.

Obviously if you are in the middle of the Sahara you are fragged. If you are at home in a temperate climate and you go to bed when you get sick you'll most likely be fine. I think my numbers might be out, it might only be 42 hours of paralysis on average.

On average your right, but if you can't move aka are paralysed, then the fridge/kitchen/drink can be a very long way of.

heh, a really bad alcohol poisoning can prove that

In answer to the original post/question... An Emphatic NO

Having read the entire thread I have a few questions. Forgive me but it's been a while since I’ve been here and only have the BBB 4thed.

Question

1) Since when has Redmond been an enclosed supermax area?

2) @ Patrick how goes the war against the Azzies?

3) It took almost 8 pages for people to start saying to house rule the damn thing? I.Q.'s have dropped since I was a regular. Well that's not really a question that's a statement. And the cursing! Lord a’ mighty. AH you never used to talk like that. Go wash your mouth out with soap and think about what you've done young man!

No, the ability to house rule anything was never in doubt, what is discussed is whether or not the official rule needs errata or fixes or what you call it.

Can I just clarify for a second.

This thread is a daughter thread of the DOTA:Dusk thread. It is not a thread directed at 'hating' Running Wild excepting that Running Wild confirmed the rules in Runners Companion. Running Wild did not break anything, it just didn't change it back.

The Disease rules are pretty arcane which, I assume, is the reason this hasn't become a big issue previously despite the length of time since RC's release.

I've seen some discussion of it previously but it was pretty tame with most people not understanding or dismissing the ramifications of the RC HMHVV-III rules.

It came up in this instance because DOTA:Dusk is the first published scenario to use Ghouls since RC was published and it was released at the same time as RW which didn't 'un-break' HMHVV-III.

Due to the nature of Dusk it is extremely likely that at least one player, one playtest group had three, will be infected.

The mathematical improbability of avoiding major trauma and/or character death/transformation can no longer be ignored.

Ok. If that's the case then yeah we need some errata stat! I don't want to play in zombie world. Hhmmm.... as I said it's been a while but isn't there a mortality rate with HMHVV? If that's the case shouldn't you have to role to see if it changes you or kills you? Again if that's the case.

Just getting an injection of O-cells(rating 6- will enable you to avoid the effects of HMHVV-III.
And in this adventure i would see it as completdly reasonable to expect frosty to pay for that treatment.

the mortality would come up if its a low essence street sam that gets infected. that is, if you have less then 1.1 essence, your going to die from essence loss before you turn ghoul after loosing 1.0 essence...

Or, depending on rules interpretation, if you end up paralysed and unable to do anything for 2 months from agony and nausea and die from dehydration.

It really feels more and more like diseases were put in there and were scaled solely by the hyper-augmented, hyper-rich, hyper-connected, magically-or-cybernetically-augmented, power levels of Shadowrunners and their ilk. When assigning power scores, etc, they seem to have designed them solely to be "challenging" for folks with double-digit Body scores, O-cells, Cure Disease spells readily available, bioware and Adept powers to help resist as well, Edge to spend...or, in fact, all of the above.

When (as the example last page shows) the basic flu -- not the lethal kind, but plain old run of the mill call-in-for-a-day-and-feel-better-tomorrow-influenza -- will kill the average human inside a week, something is wrong with the way the rules, in general, work.

I would recommend Rating 9 to be safe, 8 would do.

Regardless it is going to take you a minimum of a week to find any, half that if you rush the test.

O-Cells, don't leave home without them.

in other news, person dies from flu because he had no friends...

yes people, when your ill is when you will find the true meaning of friendship...

By RAW, you won't play in a zombie world.

You'll play in a world where the HMHVV-I infected are a dying race, preying on the Ghouls and running from the HMHVV-II infected.

Moved this to this thread to avoid divergence.

If those friends can't afford medicine for you then you are just as screwed.

A decent medkit will allow you to survive the flu but if 'Spanish' flu has a power of 6 then you are going to need nearly 6000 worth of Zeta-interferon to survive.

Don't even get me started on VITAS-3, fluff claims a mortality of 50%. Closer to 100% without treatment. Even with the Zeta-interferon and Rating 6 anti-virals you are going to be pretty sick.

These diseases would rip through the SINless and the Third World and kill 99% of victims. Only brutal quarantine measures would save anyone.

Clarification of what contact vector means in terms of diseases and infected persons would be a good step in the right direction. As others have pointed out, it doesn't fix all of the issues with ghouls, but it makes it at least would clear up concerns that 99% of everyone who has ever come within shouting distance of a ghoul will themself become a ghoul within two weeks.

On a related note, it was suggested upthread that the extreme virulence and difficulty of resisting HMHVVIII was a recent development as a result of rising mana levels (something which would help to explain the discrepency between prior fluff on the subject of ghouls and the current mechanics for the disease). If this is indeed intended to be the case, it merits further exploration. When did this development start/get noticed? What has the reaction to it been? How is this affecting the ghoul-rights movements in various parts of the world?

50% of people got treatment, the rest died

*Stands up and applauds* Well said, sir!

Although i am on the other side, it nonetheless made me laugh.^^

Since my 5 year old often plays on the computer and has responded to emails and IMs (as those who IM me know well enough), it is true enough that I may not, in fact, be me.

Now, for two more serious points:

1. DotA takes place in Lagos, and is near Asamando - where the majority of ghouls are 2nd or 3rd generation (ie, not contagious). A GM could easily enough say the ghouls in the scene were 2nd generation ghouls and had no ability to infect the runners (although not telling the runners that and letting them sweat for 24 hours is fine ).

2. In a clear, concise method as possible (lol), what is the solution you'd like to see to the issue of HMHVV III? Changing it to "injection"? Producing antivirals or immunizations that work and are priced reasonably? Saying the virus doesn't live outside a host for more than 1.8 seconds? [again, I'm asking for clear and concise statements... which might be a joke since this thread is 12 pages long... ]

All of the above, thank you very much. Changing it to Injection Vector, allowing some form of antiviral, and possibly slightly lowering the power would help.

Seriously though, the whole disease section of the rules needs to be reviewed and tested using 'Average Human' stats and assets. Overall they are excessively lethal.

"No spankies fo' you until 'dis is fixed cha."

Cheers

Vector: Injection
Power: 6
Penetration: -2



With how the disease rules are written, it remains extremely dangerous. It is, however, now at least possible for a character to survive, & avoids the global zombie problem of Contact vector.

Further, altering the disease rules so if you succeed on the initial test, you have not contracted the disease and need not make consecutive tests. Clarification on the various Vectors would be useful.

I would also alter diseases so that resistance tests beyond the minimum (aka 10 in case of ghouls) uses Remaining Power, not Initial Power. Thus, if you have a Power 6 disease & have made your minimum allotment of tests with 5 Power remaining, you do not need to resist 6 Power on the next test, you resist 5. Assuming 2 Hits, you do not resist 6 Power on the next test, but 3.

Finally, the power of some diseases in Augmentation need to be adjusted; as pointed out above, standard Influenza as written is deadly. Reduce the Power to 1. 'Deadly' Influenza should have a Power of 3.

i could have sworn that was the case already...

It is the case already hobgoblin. The rest of his points are good though.

A Change to the Injection Vector is necessary.

I would recommend to make a small incubation time, 1-3days in which a antiviral can be provided. This antiviral should change the cause of the disease, so that it doesn't transform you into a ghoul and maybe lowers the essence loss. pain, nausea and other nasty side effects are quite, ok

cya
Tycho

hi hi

I would prefer injection vector, but if it is to remain contact, I would suggest explicitly stating which parts of the ghoul are infectious. If dry tissue is not infectious, with explicit exceptions for sweat and skin oils, then contact with it would not be a problem.

As for the inevitability of the disease, if you keep its resistance to treatment and close the O-cells loophole, I would suggest making the power of the disease:
"Half Body+1"

If treatments are allowed increase the +X modifier. For normal humans, this means the disease has a power of 2, difficult without treatments, but not necessarily impossible. For the hulking troll with 10 body, it has a power of 6, which is still very challenging. You at least have a chance to succeed some of the earlier tests before the power begins to escalate out of control. This allows it to scale somewhat to the character, but not make it impossible for normal people or impossible for the super healthy. Suggesting that in people with slower metabolisms, the disease is slowed as well, and not as severe.

Again for clarity:

Vector: Injection
Power: Half Body+1 (10)
Penetration: -6

Is that official?

I find myself in almost complete agreement with Muspellsheimr.

I think I need to go have a lie down.

So the more healthy you are the more deadly it is?... makes no sense...

Ancient History does not seem to think so, as shown in his step-by-step example of ghoul infection.



So, if you are correct and my suggestion is already RAW, it needs significant clarification.

Yes, it is official. Asamando was formed in 2030. Assuming a general 'generation' of 20 years, that puts them at 3rd generation.