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Ol' Scratch
That wouldn't be fixing elves at all. They don't need a "buff" so much as a "nerf." Some kind of negative aspect aside from their cost. At least Dwarves have an added pricetag on their gear (or at least they used to; I honestly don't remember if it made the transition to SR4). Elves get a bonus to Agility, Charisma, and natural Low-Light Vision with absolutely no negatives to speak of. Aside from possible metahuman racism, which even then they suffer the least of all the metahumans.

That's honestly the only reason they cost as much as they do. Which isn't very good game design in my personal opinion.

They certainly don't need to be given more perks and have their costs lowered! That's absurd. The problem is the cost-to-benefit ratio of Orks and Dwarves, and to a lesser extent the lack of perks for being Human. Definitely not Elves!

The biggest problems with races in Shadowrun is that the designers can't get beyond the old methods used in early editions of D&D. Where Humans were the "default" race and had neither perks nor disadvantages. It says a lot when even the game they stol--- err, were "inspired by" can catch on to the flaws in that mentality and correct it, while theirs steadfastly refuse to do so. Even video games like World of Warcraft have caught on for crying out loud. And this is coming from someone who actually likes Humans as a race in fantasy games (as opposed to because of their stats).
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 17 2009, 12:15 PM) *
That wouldn't be fixing elves at all. They don't need a "buff" so much as a "nerf." Some kind of negative aspect aside from their cost. At least Dwarves have an added pricetag on their gear (or at least they used to; I honestly don't remember if it made the transition to SR4). Elves get a bonus to Agility, Charisma, and natural Low-Light Vision with absolutely no negatives to speak of. Aside from possible metahuman racism, which even then they suffer the least of all the metahumans.

That's honestly the only reason they cost as much as they do. Which isn't very good game design in my personal opinion.

They certainly don't need to be given more perks and have their costs lowered! That's absurd. The problem is the cost-to-benefit ratio of Orks and Dwarves, and to a lesser extent the lack of perks for being Human. Definitely not Elves!


In my opinion, elves are about the worst race in SR.
Even worse than humans (based entirely on mechanics; fluff-wise, humans are my favorite race and i regularly play human characters).
For 30 BP, they get 2 net additional attribute points (as they start with Edge1, not 2).
Which means that, unless you plan to raise CHA and/or AGI beyond 5, you're worse off playing an elf than a human.
Sure, they can excel at some builds, but in any role that's not heavily CHA-based, they are a suboptimal choice.

I can see if that's reason enough to make them cost 30BP as they are.
I haven't even houseruled additional advantages for humans, in spite of the fact that they are my favorite metatype and everyone on these boards, including me, agrees that ruleswise, they suck.

I just wanted to give some suggestions for people who want to do something for the metatypes who don't get pampered as uch by SR4 as orks and dwarves do.
Ol' Scratch
Anyway, in an attempt to get back on topic, here's a few more specific questions:
  • What kind of implants are a good idea to consider giving a magician? Are there any that still help with drain, like Trauma Dampers? Is Bioware your only real choice, or are there Cyberware implants that are particularly tantalizing? Not just ones that any type of runner would want, but ones that specifically benefit a magician.
  • Which roles do you find the most fun when playing a magician? Sorcery? Conjuring? Flavorful Adept powers? Astral Recon? Something else entirely? I've always fancied Conjuring and really enjoy some of the more interesting Adept powers, but dislike Adepts in general because they feel kind of boring if you just focus on more subtle/mundane powers like Improved Reflexes.
  • Is there any new equipment in the game that appeals to magicians? I know one of the sourcebooks has a program that bolsters your social skills in many situations (I forget the name or which book it's in though). Is there anything like that for a magician? Like digital grimoires?
  • How about gear or implants that benefit specific spells or metamagic techniques?
  • Are there any methods for adding more flavor to a magician at the cost of some kind of drawback? In the previous edition, Geasa were great for doing that. But from what I can recall of SR4, Geasa have been delegated to negative qualities, making them utterly boring. One thing I used to like to do was replace spell fetishes with minor geasa that applied solely to that spell; it let you make some really interesting spells and added tons of flavor without leaving the character completely crippled if they were unable to complete one or two.
  • What kind of metamagic techniques do you find the most interesting? I've always enjoyed Psychometry and Divination myself.
Anything else you guys have to toss in would be great, too. smile.gif
Totentanz
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Aug 17 2009, 04:55 AM) *
Yeah, i can see that happening (as long as the player doesn't also spend a couple K nuyen.gif on biosculpting, which can make a couch potato look like a Greek god with ease).
All the tough orkish machos (which seem to be quite common according to orxploitation fluff) will call him elfboy or smoothskin or whatever, Humanis goons will be glad to find an ork who's easy to beat up (untill they discover he's a freakin' druid) and in general, it will raise some eyelids if you look out of shape in a world where everybody tries to give at least the impression of physical perfection.
But that's the same for a human with STR1.
And i don't think orks with STR3 would be that much more uncommon.


Arguably more common because while a human with Str 1 is a weakling to everyone, an Ork with a Str of 3 is at least the average of society.

QUOTE (Rasumichin)
Yeah, same here, but that works both ways.
If i want something for mechanical reasons, i will explain it in the background of the character.
This often leads to fluff elements i wouldn't have thought about before i started to minmax this specific character.
It's a constant feedback loop between fluff and crunch and hopefully, it results in a character who is both minmaxed and believable.
I wouldn't make generalizations about "blatant munchkinism" based solely on attribute choice.


That's what I do, too. The crunch influences the fluff, and the fluff influences the crunch. I get great inspiration from both; personally I find trying generate a character while holding one as more important stifling.

QUOTE (rasumichin)
There's plenty of reasons why an ork should have STR3, for example.
Perfecting your magic skills takes so much time, it's a task that can easily overshadow any other activities.
What if he spends all day meditating in his stone circle and doesn't have the time to work out?
If you're as proficient as the average PC mage, it's not in the least surprising if your studies have made you neglect mundane tasks.
Or probably he's getting old (ork, right? "getting old" could mean "in his mid-twenties").
Once again, not that unlikely given the level of magical proficiency that's considered average for SR4 PCs.
It takes time to bring up all those stats, which might be an issue if you can expect to die of old age in your early 40s.
O probably he's just a couch potato.
Or he's deliberately neglecting things like exercising, bio sculpting and so on because he's fed up with the demand for physical perfection 70's society is constantly shoving down his throat.
Probably he doesn't want to be a muscle-bound macho because he's realized what a bunch of crap orxploitation really is.
Or he's also bought the Human Looking Quality and wants to pass as a human because deep down inside, he hates being an ork.
If you don't generate ork Druids with STR as a dump stat once a week, you shouldn't run out of possible expanations.


I can easily see an Ork Druid who views the societal pressure for his race to be big and stupid as an un-natural trend he seeks to reverse. He lives openly in Ork society as an example of how his race can be strong without having muscles.


QUOTE (Rasumichin)
Haven't done that yet, but if i'd do it, i'd most likely give some additional benefits to humans and elfs instead of gimping the other races.
Orks and dwarves seem well-done to me if you view them on their own, representing quite well what an ork or dwarf in SR should be like.

Fixing elves seems a bit easier to me.
I'd probably drop the cost for elves to 20BP or make them cost 25BP and give them another minor bonus.
Make them faster, for example.
A minor perception enhancement such as Keen-eared or Hawkeyes would also seem appropriate, but that's probably D&D elves coming through.

Sometime ago, i came across the suggestion that humans could be given 10 or 15 BP worth of positive Qualities for free.
If you want to give humans a bigger boost, these free Qualities could not be counting against the 35BP hardcap.
This would reflect humans' versatility (if people have to balance humans against fantasy races, it somehow always comes down to "i'm sure we'd be more adaptable than orks!").
Please note that breaking the 35BP Quality hardcap makes some previously impossible combinations doable.
Such as Type O System and Magician or Exceptional Attribute, Aptitude and Metagenetic Improvement.
It's debatable wether you want to include that in your game, but it would be a significant advantage for human characters to have access to these options.


Good ideas. I don't have a problem with Orks and Trolls getting so much for their BP if others get similar gains. Mechanics should be balanced with mechanics, not with fluff, and not with GM fiat. People say elves get to be the beautiful people, but I'm not convinced of that benefit in world where Humanis is around and plenty of Orks resent them more than humans. Every social benefit in SR is a disadvantage somewhere else.

That isn't a bad idea for humans, but you are right it could lead to some unintended wrinkles. Somebody out there is certainly hankering for a Type 0 Mage, and it would be nice for some race to have the option. They are still the dominant race of SR, and they need something more than 1 extra point of edge to explain that.

Another possibility would be giving humans two +1's to go in standard attributes that can't be stacked themselves. They won't have the extreme ranges available to most metatypes out of the gate, but they are flexible. That might be DnD talking, too. : )
McAllister
"Anyway, in an attempt to get back on topic, here's a few more specific questions:"

A noble attempt! I'll see if I can help.

"What kind of implants are a good idea to consider giving a magician? Are there any that still help with drain, like Trauma Dampers? Is Bioware your only real choice, or are there Cyberware implants that are particularly tantalizing? Not just ones that any type of runner would want, but ones that specifically benefit a magician."

A Trauma Damper seems like a great idea; if you're not overcasting often but you seem to end up with just 1 more drain than you can soak frequently, I'd get one. However, you could also combine/replace that with Platelet Factories, which have the same Essence cost and are nearly 50% off the nuYen cost. The benefit is that PF removes a point of physical damage (when you overcast or get shot) instead of shifting it to stun, but it doesn't work on single points of damage, which could add up. As far as cyberware goes, everyone will tell you to get cybereyes, but it might also be worth it to get a cyberhand, or even lower arm. The benefits are that you can install a datajack for some DNI, a nanohive for all the weird and wonderful nanoware bonuses, and agility so your one arm can shoot straight and deliver touch spells.

"Which roles do you find the most fun when playing a magician? Sorcery? Conjuring? Flavorful Adept powers? Astral Recon? Something else entirely? I've always fancied Conjuring and really enjoy some of the more interesting Adept powers, but dislike Adepts in general because they feel kind of boring if you just focus on more subtle/mundane powers like Improved Reflexes."

You're right, spending power points on Improved Reflexes is such a drag. You have to buy at least one level on any nonmystic adept, so it does absolutely nothing to develop the character, but without it you're useless in combat. As far as favourite role, all of them can be done well; my only qualm is that, as useful as Astral Recon is, it gets boring if you don't face the right kinds of foes.

"Is there any new equipment in the game that appeals to magicians? I know one of the sourcebooks has a program that bolsters your social skills in many situations (I forget the name or which book it's in though). Is there anything like that for a magician? Like digital grimoires?"

You're thinking about empathy software from Arsenal. The short answer is that no equipment except foci has any direct effect on a magician's magical usefulness. Arsenal also has a bunch of manatech, and it's all boring, most of it allowing mundanes to do things magicians could accomplish with ease, or offering roundabout ways to accomplish magical tasks (like the astral smoke grenade). As far as equipment goes, invest in a chameleon suit and buy whatever you need to use the skills linked to your drain stat.

"How about gear or implants that benefit specific spells or metamagic techniques?"

Hmmm... nothing comes to my mind, but I bet there are people out there with more experience using metamagic techniques.

"Are there any methods for adding more flavor to a magician at the cost of some kind of drawback? In the previous edition, Geasa were great for doing that. But from what I can recall of SR4, Geasa have been delegated to negative qualities, making them utterly boring. One thing I used to like to do was replace spell fetishes with minor geasa that applied solely to that spell; it let you make some really interesting spells and added tons of flavor without leaving the character completely crippled if they were unable to complete one or two."

Yeah, geasa stack in the most annoying way; if you break one, they're all broken. You could always battle a focus addiction, or take a geas where you've got to be high on a drug to cast right. Other drawbacks include aspected magician (you retain your skill at sorcery/conjuring/enchating+arcana/astral projection+assensing, but get a -4 penalty to all the ones you're not aspected towards) and taking a thematically appropriate but mechanically useless mentor spirit.

"What kind of metamagic techniques do you find the most interesting? I've always enjoyed Psychometry and Divination myself."

Channeling is required if you're Possession type, Masking (probably Extended) is required period. Other than that, I think it's great fun to have an adept use Attunement for anything but a melee weapon (honestly, just get a focus, it's better), or Infusion and shout that he's going super-saiyan. A grade 3 initiate using Infusion to power-up Agility Boost and Strength Boost by 3 points each (and then uses both of them) is going to wreck some house for a couple rounds.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 17 2009, 03:27 PM) *
[*] Which roles do you find the most fun when playing a magician? Sorcery? Conjuring? Flavorful Adept powers? Astral Recon? Something else entirely? I've always fancied Conjuring and really enjoy some of the more interesting Adept powers, but dislike Adepts in general because they feel kind of boring if you just focus on more subtle/mundane powers like Improved Reflexes.


Personally, i enjoy conjuring the most.
Both because i love the incredible tactical flexibility of spirits (there's so many more uses to them besides "conceal our team and beat the crap outta our enemies") and because it can be so much fun to roleplay the interaction with your spirits.
I also love all the fluff regarding initiation and the metaplanes, it enables you to portray really mindblowing events that completely change the life of your character.
Just imagine meeting your totem face to face instead of as a vague vision in a dream.

But i try to utilize every possible magical ressource as much as i can, from astral scouting, Assensing and warding to Spellcasting.
In general, full magicians are my favorite role in the game because they're the most versatile character type in the game and i try to live up to these possibilities as much as i can.

QUOTE
Is there any new equipment in the game that appeals to magicians? I know one of the sourcebooks has a program that bolsters your social skills in many situations (I forget the name or which book it's in though). Is there anything like that for a magician? Like digital grimoires?
How about gear or implants that benefit specific spells or metamagic techniques?


If you go for the Invoking Metamagic, check out Wudu'aku (a magical compound from Arsenal).
It enhances your Binding skills and if you use Invoking, you want as many dice as possible for that.

QUOTE
What kind of metamagic techniques do you find the most interesting? I've always enjoyed Psychometry and Divination myself.


Yeah, these are a lot of fun, but the most powerful one is probably Invoking.
More spirit powers, including truly awesome stuff like Imbuing, Storm, Regeneration or Astral Gateway, better attributes, Banishing resistance against these pesky corpsec exorcists- if you want spirits that could best be described as milspec, go for it.
Can't wait to use my F6 Great Form Air Spirit with +5 to all physical attributes on the next run...even though the drain was a major pain in the ass, though.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 17 2009, 10:27 AM) *
Anyway, in an attempt to get back on topic, here's a few more specific questions:
What kind of implants are a good idea to consider giving a magician? Are there any that still help with drain, like Trauma Dampers? Is Bioware your only real choice, or are there Cyberware implants that are particularly tantalizing? Not just ones that any type of runner would want, but ones that specifically benefit a magician.
It borders on the absurd, but I love grapple hands in a cyber-limb. You paid the essence for it and it is still connected to you by myomeric rope, so it can be used to deliver touch attacks. It is useful for climbing. The arm has space for other useful gadgets like datajacks, agility augments, storage compartments (for fetishes / foci), etc.

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 17 2009, 10:27 AM) *
Which roles do you find the most fun when playing a magician? Sorcery? Conjuring? Flavorful Adept powers? Astral Recon? Something else entirely? I've always fancied Conjuring and really enjoy some of the more interesting Adept powers, but dislike Adepts in general because they feel kind of boring if you just focus on more subtle/mundane powers like Improved Reflexes.
For me the mage role expands with interesting application rather than one specific aspect.
I love mage detectives, even before I read the dresden files.
Ghost hunters/exorcists whether wuxia, indian, belmont or otherwise are a lot of fun.
Wall running, great leap, freefall, gliding all make for fun times.
Missile parry and missile mastery archers and lets you toss grenades back.

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 17 2009, 10:27 AM) *
Are there any methods for adding more flavor to a magician at the cost of some kind of drawback? In the previous edition, Geasa were great for doing that. But from what I can recall of SR4, Geasa have been delegated to negative qualities, making them utterly boring. One thing I used to like to do was replace spell fetishes with minor geasa that applied solely to that spell; it let you make some really interesting spells and added tons of flavor without leaving the character completely crippled if they were unable to complete one or two.
If you really like the Geasa, you could always bring them back like they were.
As is they are a method of initiation ordeal that leaves lasting flavor.
Aspected Magicians are a way to limit for flavor, but not necessarily worth it.
An unusual tradition can be limiting in ways you don't expect. Say, a psionicist who doesn't accept the general theories of magic.

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 17 2009, 10:27 AM) *
What kind of metamagic techniques do you find the most interesting? I've always enjoyed Psychometry and Divination myself.
I also really like those two metamagics.
Quickening is also quite cool. (every time i hear that said I think, "My name is Ramirez!")
I played a former-yakuza mage once that was slowly tattooing his body from the neck down covering himself completely. Spatial Sense and Detect Enemies, Extended made him a living radar.

Not metamagic, but Ritual magic is an oft overlooked aspect of magic that can really add to a game. It is as magician as it comes.

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