As the title says. I'm wondering: I'm not seeing in the book (Augmentation) where a metahuman couldn't be implanted with a biodrone control system for some 5-IP fun.

Because 5 IP are only for Cyber-Space, not for Meat-Space

Think McQ has a post from a week or two ago about just this. We've addressed this locally not too long ago as well. New movie "Gamer" gives some ideas.
A quality exists that makes the character an escaped clone, certainly you could toss a stirrup system in a clone. Cost would be a limiting factor. Theres at least one mention of "jumping jacks" rigged clones the Proteus board used for face to face meetings IRC.

Also the mention of biomorph drones in Runners companion and Eclipse phase site (Human sleeves) about the same time got me thinking we'd see something concrete in the near future. I've since been told that the drones mentioned in Runners Companion were VGI drones. (Although I was told they would be explained in an upcoming book in a past chat and VGI has been around since Augmentation.)

Edit: What Stah said, think it's been addressed recently. Meat 4 passes. Machine 5 passes.

VGI gets a bit more information and some actual mechanics in Running Wild. (Look in the Critter Rules chapter near Warforms.)

I did talk about putting a stirrup into people--it makes a fun exploit for mysterious cyberware and a Street Sam who has a MBW system, or it can have some additional side uses. The 5 IP being discussed for cyberspace would apply for a rigger who has "jumped into" the drone and is running the necessary hardware--upto 4 shooting et al with the drone plus an extra matrix action. It's very costly, but does start approaching a few of the transhuman issues.

I knew it would come up! I knew it! RW has been out for 1 week and look what you've done!!!

Rigger, please.

I'm thinking that stirrup-ing yourself will give you potentially 5 IPs, use your Response instead of Reaction (and Agility in some cases), take a -1 to all skills, and take 1.5 times the damage from bio-feedback through the rigged interface. Not sure about what sort of Sensor rating one would have, though, for attacking and Perception tests.

If that's your bucket of ducks, I say knock yourself out.

I'd say you'd probably have to limit IPs to the rating of the MBW system you install. I don't see why skill ratings should be penalized though. Also, what if you run cold sim? No biofeedback there. Or would a cold sim jump-in on a metahuman biodrone even be possible?

I don't think it is possible to stirrup yourself. Why would you need to jump into yourself, if anything that would slow yourself down (it would be like remote desktopping into the computer your working on, very silly).

By my read, that's basically exactly what move by wire systems do.

You're just mad, I came up with the idea first. At least they haven't discovered phase two yet...


Edit: On a slightly more serious note, I think what Aaron was trying to say is that the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks from his perspective. It may be cheaper to actually just build an anthroform rather than investing in the stirrup. (A rating 3 Stirrup has an availability of 28R and a cost of 100,000 nuyen afterall...before alpha grade increases)

The -1 that he mentioned is part and parcel of using the stirrup interface, per Augmentation 153.

In ADDITION to any other physical and/or stun damage which gets dealt to your body.

No, I think that'd be included in the 1.5 times - you take normal damage from any attack, plus half again from biofeedback per standard rigging rules. Altogether, 1.5 times normal damage.

Hrm, okay, i may be wrong there . . but math is an asshole <.<

You don't jump into yourself with a move by wire system, your put into a constant seizure state and the system directs the seizure in the motion you want to go.

Feel free to flame the newbie if I'm being enormously dense ( ), but doesn't Cold Sim leave you with one less IP than Hot?

And how does the system direct the seizure? Through DNI. And what's preventing someone else's DNI from directing the seizure for you? That's where the stirrup system comes in. Either way, through MBW you aren't directly controlling your body anymore, your mind is kind of puppeteering through a digital system. Minus the remote sensory input, isn't this exactly what rigging a metahuman biodrone would be like?

So this can be done. Interesting.

(Tiger, note that the rules originally appeared in Aug and it looks to have been possible even then.)

The stirrup doesn't cause a seizure state in the biodrone, its not rigging. Sigh it is like talking to a brick wall.

Here's what Augmentation has to say on Stirrup interfaces :



This means that yes, the stirrup interface does artificially induce a state of seizure, just like a MBW does.
Because a Stirrup is a modified MBW.
Plus a rigger control.
So that you can, well, rig a creature with a Stirrup implant.

This is wrong. It is 5 IP for all actions, as all actions that you make while jumped in are considered Matrix Actions. We've been over this a couple of weeks ago.

It might help if you made a counterargument here besides "no."

Rules state stirrup system is an advanced MBW, smart guy.

Neraph--Do you have a link? I didn't follow that conversation. Part of my reasoning behind the combination was that firing a weapon in the Matrix is a Complex Action, but it's a Simple Action (usually) in the Meat, thus you can fire more by mixing and matching.

Yeah, but it's a Simple Action to jump in or out without the ... um ... proper quality. More than Metahuman, I think it's called.

IP Meat // Matrix
1 Shoot (x2) // Shoot
2 Shoot (x2) // Shoot
3 Shoot (x2) // Shoot
4 Shoot, Jump // Shoot
5 Matrix Action // Shoot

7 shots vs 5 shots (Presuming SA/BF) With More than Metahuman, it becomes a Free Action so you can take the 8th shot before jumping.

Oh, and to completely undermine the entire discussion, a GM would be completely within his/her rights to say that there is not a metahuman version of the Stirrup Interface since it is designed for animals. (Augmentation p. 152)

But technically, you would only have to build in a reverse control rig into some body eith MBW allready in it it seems . .

Er ... wouldn't this require you to start out in the meat? Wouldn't you then be stuck with your meat IPs for the Combat Turn?

Metahumans are animals. Even now you are still part of the animal kingdom.

You don't want to put yourself into this danger? - Send your rigged clone!

Btw, that would make the first multi-use suicide bombers.

Or, just get the mini-cruise missile drone and rig it if all you want to do is to deliver a bang.

There you said it yourself that the stirrup is first a modified MBW and secondly has a rigger control on it. Thus a Stirrup is NOT a MBW and a MBW DOES NOT allow you to jump into yourself and thus you CAN NOT use a stirrup on yourself to jump into yourself. End of story.

Amazing.
I think you just invented a new kind of logical fallacy.

Mathematically speaking, you're looking at sets while he's looking at basic addition. Since this is all fluff, he's clearly being a complete ****ing moron.

As regards to the drone discussion: I'm not too hot on the drone rules. I thought if you jumped in for full VR, you got a full set of actions...?

You don't get a full set of VR actions the pass you jump in, you've spent your actions that pass getting into VR. Same concept projecting into the astral. If you had VR actions waiting for you to use that pass, it wouldn't make much sense for logging in to require an action at all.

On the MBW thing: Stirrup is a MBW with a doodad that let's you rig the MBW system. It's MBW+, so you couldn't "rig" yourself with a standard MBW system. At least, someone else couldn't do it. I'm sure in a fluff sense it works because you're "jumped into" yourself, but that's all you can jump into without a commlink and you can't have friends over. Mechanically it operates exactly as it says on the tin, and that means you can't jump into that guard with the MBW system and walk him around like he has a stirrup system.

Wait, there where people in this thread who claimed that you can rig somebody with a normal, off-the-rack MBW?

Damn, in that case, i'm awfully sorry TBRMI.

Never wanted to make that point.
Of course you need a Stirrup interface to rig any living being.

Okay, reread the whole thing...
Yeah, i really see your point.

Of course, a normal MBW couldn't be used for rigging somebody.
Even though i'm fairly certain that hacking it would allow a crude form of control over the body (like moving a puppet on strings or something).

However, what you can do with a normal MBW doesn't have that much to do with the original topic.

If one would come across a Stirrup interface tailored for metahumans, anything in the biodrone section would be possible.
And i'm fairly certain that this is possible, as there's already primate biodrones (such as Ares' CyGor warform).
Not that far off to apply the same technique to another kind of primate, right?

And yes, i think that one has to adapt a Stirrup to the species in question, i don't think that you can just implant the same device in a condor, a tiger or a human (unless you use something along the lines of the Chrome Critters optional rule from RC- if you can use metahuman cyberware in nagas, centaurs or pixies with a 20% Essence penalty, why not use gorilla cyberware in a human with the same penalty applied?).

For a specifically human Stirrup, i'd probably increase Availability and would certainly change legality from R to F.

This all doesn't really adress the issue of self-rigging, though.
But none of the points mentioned above excludes it.

The problem in this case would be to find a way to apply a RAS override (so that the user doesn't try to move his body in the usual way) while still allowing the rigger to move the body via rigging.
If the rigger and drone body are identical, this could lead to paradoxical signals cancelling each other out.

There may be some way around it (which may boil down to applied RAW phlebotinum), but it would certainly be a concern as far as plausibility goes.

Balance wise, i don't see a problem with the idea, though.
The -1 to all actions and the potential risks from biofeedback, as well as possible hotsim addiction, should make up for a cheap way to get 5IPs.
I'd probably allow it in a game i run.

That's what I was thinking... one lone terrorist or vigilante (possible a para/quadraplegic or heavily damaged individual) using stirruped clones to perform their tasks. That's just begging for an "Oracle/Barbara Gordon" rigger running stirruped "Batgirl" clones, or a "Wolfe" riding "Goodwin" clones.

That's a very expensive attack plan. If he has his own cloning facilites then it's even more expensive, and if he doesn't his plan won't last very long.

It's MUCH cheaper to kidnap a homeless bum and force implant a Sim Module (Hot-Sim Modified) with a hardwired suicide bomber personafix. Now that you've given them the motivation, just equip them and give them a target. They're back to being one-shots, but they're very economical and swift to produce.

1. Team is hired to for info retrieval. (list of names)
2. Team is to kidnap a half a dozen special forces personnel. (non-lethal weapons only)
3. Team is to escort packages to a remote clinic were they act as security for the doc and his staff there. (A few days to move implants around,perform lobotomies and implant stirrup.)
4. Team is abandoned in wilderness to deal with this first test batch of "rigged" assets.

Or bums are disappearing off the streets, only to turn up chasing the team during a test run.

Something to spring on a team they'd never see coming.

Edit: Cost is the biggest de-motivator for rigged sentients but it does just have a coolness factor you can't deny.

Best use for metahuman stirrup rigs: High end bunraku parlors. Let the clients do the rigging.

Gives new meaning to the phrase "go fuck yourself".

The phrase "go fuck yourself" has already officially been given new meaning with the introduction of Poly-POV porn sims.