First let me give some back ground. I've played Shadowrun for about 20 years now, and I love it. It's been one of my favorite games consistently for a variety of reasons: quality of ideas; quality of writing; quality of inspiration. (Notice Crunch doesn't make my top three list. That's important.)

However my vision of the game, I think, vastly differs from what I see as the average "Cyberpunk" game out there. I draw my inspiration from a variety of sources-my career in Law Enforcement, my time in the Military (Hey does Derek still post around here these days?); popular culture (Movies like Heat, Ronin, The Way of the Gun, and more. Comic Books like Fables, The Walking Dead, and many more. Music like Aphex Twin, NIN, Machines of Loving Grace, etc...) My game is more Noir in some respects, definitely grittier, and far less "Punk" than how the game is presented.

Now I get we all get to bring our own vision's to the table, and that's fun. So please don't think I'm missing that point. Iget the Gamer Police won't show up on my door step if I don't use YoTC, or stuff I don't like. I also get the people selling the game aren't doing it for free, and that one of the many ways they keep the game alive is attracting a new market.

Now all of that said this thread is inspired by a post I've quoted below, and is intended to be a discussion of what it means to be a Professional Criminal, which I believe is different from Criminal, and certainly much removed from "Violent" and "Unstable". So feel free to contribute, try not take it too personal, and most of all have fun!

A Note

I've removed the specific poster's name from this post, although I am sure any one can easily figure out who posted it. My intent is not to single this poster out, and harass them. Rather their post inspired me to make this post, and it's been one of the more fun posts I've written for any forum in a long while. Please respect this user's privacy, and please refrain from getting to harsh. I've tried to keep my comments lighthearted, and tried to refrain from making it a personal attack. (I'm not sure if I succeeded, and if I failed my apologies.)



Well see here's the rub my friend. There's professional criminals and there's Professional Criminals. I work in a prison, and I am around people who've chosen Crime as a profession all day nearly every day. There's a pretty huge difference, in my book, between a Thug and a Professional. Anyone can commit a crime. It's pretty easy. Sure society tries to differentiate between "Serious" crimes and "Non-serious" crimes. (Or if you prefer violent, non violent, property damage, etc...etc...) but the fact is we're really bad at it. Most people get away with more crimes than they are caught for.

Talk to any convict and they'll tell you that they committed tens, if not hundreds of offenses prior to being committed. Even more after they've been committed.

Being a Criminal is like any other job. Some people care about what they do, and how they do it. Some guys are going to burn the place down if we take their stapler one last time. Being a good criminal, in a lot of ways, is like being a good soldier or spy, or actor. In fact it sort of involves being all of those things at once in order to be successful. (A term I reluctant to use, successful, because it's subjective. We'll all define it just a little differently.)

To me the point of a "Shadowrunner" (Seriously? Who would say that? Who? No one that's who.) is that you aren't some jack ass with a day glow mohawk drawing attention to what you're doing. You're a nameless, faceless, anonymous ghost in the machine. You can be anyone. You can be anywhere. You can do anything. (Or at least make people believe you can.) That doesn't mean you're an amoral slob who'd jump out of a bush to touch kids funny. Even hardened killers (There are few of these in reality, most people kill one or a few people whom they tend to know well enough to be emotionally invested into.) have codes of conduct.



Ah but not every job has to be illegal, and not every crime is equal, or even unjust. Just because you commit crime for money doesn't mean you have to take any job that comes along. Every criminal, just like anyone else, has different goals. Some are obviously less noble than others.



I think this is way too narrow of a definition, and utter bullshit to boot. It's nothing personal, but if that were true wouldn't playing Shadowrun amount to some sort emo sadomasochistic circle jerk? Even the game as presented isn't about being an amoral, unstable, violent, insane monster. Maybe that's how you roll, but in my game that shit would get you tossed out on your ass, unless you had a story to tell.



I think all of that can be true, but those are the guys who get caught, and do hard, hard time. For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Remember that? No where is it more true than law enforcement. Ever been pulled over? Were a prick to the cop writing you a ticket? No? Why not? Because he could shoot your ass, right? Or write another ticket. Or search your car. Contempt of Cop is a pretty common offense, especially inside prison walls. (No that doesn't make it right, or even common place. It is what it is. I am not saying every cop is dirty, or that every cop is looking to bust your balls.)

Kill a boat load of people in my game, and guess what? Local, County, State, National, and International Law Enforcement people start looking for you. Unless it's the job to kill, why bother? A wounded security guard can only press charges against you for malicious wounding, felonious assault, and/or felon in possession of a firearm, right? A dead security has friends, family, and murder charges following you.

So yes, Use of Force is a tool in every Professional Criminal's tool box. But just like working in law Enforcement there should be a Use of Force Continuum. This isn't perfect but here's a decent example:

[img]http://www.cbp.gov/custoday/nov2000/images/force.gif[/img]

(Not sure why this isn't displaying, but just in case The Link

Notice it starts with Presence.

Presence is commonly defined as



Follow up on each level, and their appropriate response. Use of Force is not cut and dried. Nor should it be. You don't use a screw driver to hammer a nail, and you don't use a hammer to open jars. The right tool for the right job.

I think you either don't know anyone who works as a Private Investigator, or perhaps you just don't get the game as written (At the minimum you have a vastly different idea of what the game is, or how I understand it to be commonly understood.). While I agree that currently Police Corruption isn't anywhere near the levels it's portrayed as being at in Popular Culture, the News media, and other forms of entertainment (Make no mistake the News Media is selling you the news my friend. They're not nonprofits.); I think that misses the mark of the game is envisioned. It's a Dystopian Future where there are fewer checks and balances on authority; where violence is more common place and accepted at a level that would make International Prime time news these days.

For all intents and purposes there is little difference between Shadowrunners, P.I.'s and Body Guards. In fact I'd suggest that Investigative Work, and Body Guard are types of jobs some Shadowrunners could take. (The idea that all Shadowrunners have to be Professional Criminals is a box I don't feel the need to limit my players or game to.)



So can every day people. Every member of this board, whether they want to believe it or not, is capable of any of these acts. Some may have actually committed them. Single parents kidnap. Soccer moms steal. Priest's commit arson. Everyday people assassinate each other every day. It's called murder.

A Shadowrunner can do these things. Or conversely they can choose not to. Haven't you ever seen the wrongly convicted Hero strive for his freedom? (Hey Harrison Ford in the Fugitive, I'm looking at you!) You need some more Pop Culture exposure my friend!



Or not. You do realize how many people have Warrants right? In times past these warrants have been issued by Creditors, Jealous wives, angry coworkers...Let's just say it's not always a judge of what's really going on. That said, i do think you're somewhat correct. A high enough profile criminal will attract some attention, these could take the forms of Warrants, etc... That's one consequence to use on players who are sloppy.



You keep saying this. Why? Why is it true? Why is it like that in your game? Why limit yourself to that single definition?

Now I address all of this to you, but I should mention I'm not trying to put you on the spot here. You certainly don't have to answer, and I am certainly not trying to say your a bad person, or anything like that. I just trying to understand how you have your fun at your table, while explaining how we have fun at ours.



That perfectly describes a lot of people under arms: Police men, Fire Men, the Military. Money isn't everything right?



Man how unfun is your game? Even in real life not all criminals are drunk or high when they commit crimes. I think you're bringing a personal chip to the table man. I think the game would be more fun if you left it behind.



Wow, do you have any fun when playing? Look I'm not sure how to say this any better, but the best Criminal's are the well adjusted ones. The ones that fit right in. The violent psychopaths don't last long. Even in real life they burn out and fade away, getting old takes the piss and vinegar out of most people. Few people can be angry all of their lives.

I think you need to take a serious look at what you think of the game, and re-examine it. I think you'd have more fun if you let up a little. I'm sorry this has taken a slightly personal twist at the end, and obviously if you're having fun then who am I to tell you how to have your fun?

Now onto remarks inspired by your post:

A Shadowrunner is a Professional. Like any Professional they have a code of conduct they adhere to, be it No women, no kids, or something more concrete. Just because you're a Shadowrunner doesn't mean you're SINless, or even a criminal. The game allows you to do more than that. Just like not every PC is a Mage or a Street Sam-not every "Run" is illegal, immoral or illicit.

Build an internally consistent world folks. Don't be afraid to make the game work for you, and make it fun.

Okay tear me apart! Tell me what you see Shadowrunners as being? What is your definition of a Professional Criminal? Do Shadowrunners in your game get Shoe Endorsements? Are they heroes? Are they antiheros? Are they villains? Is your game a wanton bout of blood soaked violence? Is it a puzzle trap that would make Grimtooth shudder? Is it a pop culture reference fest?

Speak the Word.

Stupid rules about "Maximum" number of quotes. So I had to break down into two posts, sorry.

I support your views and wish to subscribe to your news letter.

While I didn't want to revisit the original thread in question or the unnamed poster I was reading through ghost cartels last night and I couldn't help but notice both investigative and bodyguard jobs in the job bank side bar. Huh, how odd, why ever would they not go through licensed and legal channels.

A lot of guys who lose their tin, especially midstream, find they have little patience or desire to work a "normal" job. I know a few guys who also work as PI's to supplement their income. Obviously not all PI's fit these molds, and it's not all cut and dried. In this day and age PI work has to be easier than ever, imagine how easy some of it must be in the Sixth World?

Yea, for those who are wondering Paul is reffering to my post that 2 out of 3 PI's i've met known/personally were cops who lost their jobs for one reason or another badly enough they couldn't get on a police force somewhere else. I didn't want to paint the whole profession with too broad a brush.

Although the video is played for comedy, intended to sell video games of an unrelated franchise, I can't help but think of Team Fortress 2's Meet the Sniper when reading this thread.

Bravo. +1.

I'm new to SR, and I've only really read the rule books, but I've noticed this tendency and wondered why. The game itself goes to great lengths to describe people who could be amoral, immoral, or possibly very moral and simply buggered by circumstance. The vignettes in the books describe people who have all sorts of different reasons for doing what they do. The opening vignette of the 4th BBB involves a Runner team that tries to complete their contract, gets almost TPK'ed, and part of the reason they are so pissed is the Johnson was trying to kill a bunch of Orks and Trolls. Psychopaths? Hardly.

I partially attribute this to a tendency among RP'ers in general to throw around words they don't quite understand. Examples include psychopath, sociopath, sadist, schizophrenic, lunatic, narcissist, and a whole host of others. It seems every time I turn around somebody is throwing around these words like everyone who commits crimes is one of them. Part of it is the trend of pseudo-intellectualism in the RP community. People hear about something on TV, spend 10 minutes on wikipedia and dub themselves expert. Sorry, my little mini-rant there.

I think the game is intended to have diversity. If every PC is supposed to be a mentally screwed up individual the game is going to get boring fast. Perhaps more importantly, some people don't want to handle themes like that in their games. I can already hear some people say, "Then don't play SR," but that is a cop-out. Modern storytelling is filled with genres and sub-genres where life sucks, people get killed, but the terror of it all is glossed over for the sake of the story. SR is just a game, and adhering to some artificial standard of "realism," or anything else at the expense of the game is just silly. Besides, how are players supposed to portray Ice Cold Runners professionally working together on a mission if they all belong in a nut house, and know it?

I've played bad characters. I mean the kind of people you love to see die at the hands of somebody like Mel Gibson at the end of a movie. I've played really good people. I mean the kind of people who usually end up dying in movies to save something larger than themselves, and sometimes failing to save it. I've played a lot in between, including some people who were genuinely amoral. I've done my damn best to play old-school Malkavians in WoD and had my players, not their characters, get seriously scared. I'd like to think SR can encompass all those experiences, and provide a wealth of opportunities for exploring concepts and having fun.

I don't think a world in which all, or even most, Runners are crazy can provide an adequately large RP experience. I don't think the UAW (Universe as Written, Kerenshara's phrase) supports that view. I know the fluff I've read doesn't support it. If somebody wants to play a game where Runners are crazy, more power to them. I always put the desires of the table over the books. But, I disagree with the notion that the game is intended to be that limited.

As for criminals, the 6th World is even more clear on that. People without SINs don't have opportunities outside of crime for the most part. Most of them just suffer, endure poverty, and die. Some of them join gangs or crime syndicates. A small percentage of them might just be talented enough for a corp to scoop up. Some of them become Runners. It can pay well, and it can get them killed. For many it is apparently better than near-starvation on the streets and a lonely, ignominious death. Being a criminal in the 6th world doesn't mean they are sociopaths or like stealing and killing. It could just mean they are ambitiously dissatisfied with their circumstances and are willing to take the physical risks and the moral hazards if it means a chance at something better.

Paul, you have a done a fine job on this. Much better than my ramblings.

I like your take on things ... only, like the quoted post's take on things as well.

I wouldn't want to demean in any way your IRL experience, in fact I would respectfully defer to it, but do to my own limited experience with playing SR (which was disappointing, but that was for Out of Character reasons IMHO, I don't blame SR for it) there seems to be a distinct lack of respect for the being Professional part of being a Criminal.

I remember thinking, even as my first character blew apart a guards head, "This sucks, I don't think my runner would actually want to kill anyone unless that was expressly the goal of the job." and became resentful of my fellow runners actions that lead to my character having to unnecessarily (though necessary by that point) take a life, especially the life of some poor slob in 2070.

What do I think of Shadow Runners as? Simply, a self employed Contractor looking to get paid under the table, which most of the time will mean the job they are doing is illegal because the Client of the Contractor needs something that they would like to be paid under the table as well ... and because of those conditions, since tax/duties/etc are not paid, even if the act is legal normally, it would be considered illegal.

Heh, so I could so see a Shadowrunner doing a renovation for someone on their house for a certified cred stick just so that individual didn't have to get a building permit, pay for inspections, and stuff. Holmes On Homes wouldn't like Shadowrunner home builders possibly And that is my perspective taken from a bit of experience and training in rough carpentry and general construction.

In conclusion, I think there is room in SR for the Pro and Pink, I just don't think they would get along, sorta like in Heat when they go to take out that one guy who we later learn murders women for jollies. In fact, in a strange way, I think a Mr. J might even prefer a Pink for some jobs, perhaps as a distraction to the actual target the Pros are going against so the Emergency Response Teams are tied up with the Pink Mohawks ... hey, come to think of it, a Pro team might even hire a Pink team to do that, hedging their bets that they wouldn't even have to pay the Pinks if none of them survive.

I have to disagree, I don't think Pink Mohawks could survive as actual Runners in an Ice Cold Pro world, as gangers sure, but not as real Runners.

With that said, Ice Cold Pros could eek by in a Pink Mohawk world, but they would mostly be "pets" being kept by one corp or another.

Oh, I don't mean to be misunderstood, so I actually agree with you: I don't think the Pinks would survive either, even in their own "world". I just think there would be more Pinks then Pros, so sure, more death in the Shadows and all that, then by attrition you end up with the few still alive being alive for a reason, so Pro. At least, that is my humble opinion.

Not sure that I actually disagree, well with the exception that personally I don't think the survival rate of the "Pros" would be much better, even in a Pink World, Running isn't a lifestyle that you take up if you want to live to the ripe old age of thirty.

heh, the pink mohawk may survive, if he is professional enough to get said mohawk done in synthair, and ready to go "gray man" as the job requires.

but then, it depends on the mohawk being physical, or just a shorthand of a playing style where one would break a glass door and step thru the frame just because it sounds so much "cooler" then simply opening the door...

Pink mohawks could survive in the world I read out of SR4 fluff, but I agree that they'd be either gangers, or raving maniacs that various corporate organs keep starved and on a short leash until they need to let it out for a one-shot damage spree.

I have been GMing SR for 20 years, and I have seen a wide variety of groups. Every group has been different, and even within long standing groups, I have seen vastly different types of teams from one campaign to another. I ran a Denver campaign with a group that would not do wetwork, and would go to great pains to avoid killing, even to the point of treating the injuries of those they incapacitated or wounded during the course of a run. I ran a Caribbean League campaign with that exact same group and they became blood thirsty pirates, smuggling drugs, hijacking commercial ships and killing the crew, and just being generally bad people.

My definition of a Professional Criminal is someone who makes a living through criminal activity. Can you play Shadowrun without playing a Professional Criminal? You certainly can, I also ran a campaign where everyone played Sioux Military Spec Ops. They may have technically broken a law or two during the course of the campaign, but they were definitely not professional criminals, they were soldiers. The SR rules even provide you with ideas for alternate campaigns such as DocWage HTR teams.

The game is what you make of it, both as a GM and as a player. The only thing that is the same about every SR group is that they are all different.

I've been operating under the assumption that "Pink Mohawk" means a style of play that is a bit more dirty. The best analogy to a movie I can come up with is Smokin' Aces, iirc the movie title correctly. There were those guys who bust into the penthouse and one has a chainsaw ... and well, it gets interesting. Even that one chick doing her sniper thing goes "Pink" IMHO when she thinks her girlfriend is dead.

Ultimately though, I think how well the criminals of SR get by is largely dependent on what a GM allows the setting to let them get away with. There is definitely the possibility that some GMs out there will allow the PCs to rack up body counts that would make Rambo jealous and the setting hardly bats an eye other than the Mr. J offering a job that sets them up against progressively harder opposition so that the GM thinks they are challenged in combat or whatever. Just saying though, I think that style of GM'ing gets old fast and rather hope that the setting will take notice when NPCs start dying, even if they are guards for a corp or gang or whatever and assumed to be in the line of fire by their fellow NPCs.

I've always operated under the assumption that Pink Mohawk is a more flashy, stylistic playstyle, sort of taken with the Rule of Cool as paramount - a game where everyone can do what's awesome, and does awesome things because they're awesome. Basically, a giant one-upping contest, almost, with everyone int he game basically looking for a distinctive style.
Whereas Ice-Cold Pro is just a downright gritty game - may not be in the streets, but is more realistic, with tough consequences and a bloody painful approach, attempting to keep people form doing stupid things and making them think and work for their pay.
I dunno - is that sort of accurate?

Pink Mohawk is style over substance where-as Ice Cold Pros are results above all else.

However, I disagree that "grit" or even "realism" has anything to do with either trope.

i tend to see most vanilla-runners as a group that came to prominence as a result of the cultural points of divergence in the shadowrun timeline.

excessive urbanization gives them a wide range within which to operate and a natural habitat that may be foreign to many other people - cities are beautiful places with a million things going on at once, giant organisms, and shadowrunners are capable of navigating them.

corporate extraterritoriality results in a situation where what is "illegal" in one area can be legal, or at least overlooked, in another area, and shadowrunners are in a position to cross these jurisdictions freely.

the transhuman aspects of shadowrun, namely cybernetics and magic in all their forms, offer people shortcuts in many areas that would otherwise require a large amount of legitimate time, training, energy, money, etc... to accomplish. the edge that this gives an otherwise normal human can be rather significant in dangerous situations.

so basically, you've got balkanized legal jurisdictions serving as barriers between entities within an overpopulated urban environment, and this subset of people who are not bound specifically to any single one of those entities who KNOW how to navigate that urban jungle AND who are usually capable of some significant feats of human-boundary-pushing through whatever flavor of dice-pool-boosting-mechanic you like, and what are they gonna do, since their lack of entity-affiliation makes them unfit to participate in the dominant social structure...

this doesn't fit all shadowrun CHARACTERS, of course. you can make a character whomever you want her to be, but that just means not all SR characters are actually shadowrunners. unlike the contemporary professional- or career-criminals that some people are comparing them to, shadowrunners exist in a world abundant with cultural rifts occurring in relatively small areas - sociopathic, insane, amoral, etc... are all adjectives that are defined within those different cultures. even if they all agreed on what was crazy or moral and what wasn't, the shadowrunner still comes from a place that is by its nature antithetical to that. they are from a world where the obvious question is not, "what is right, and what is wrong?" but, "what IS right and wrong?" they ARE sociopaths, they ARE amoral, they ARE violent, but they are only so as representatives of a post-societal, post-moral, post-violent world.

shuya - that's an excellent post

Think a great point - the transhuman elements really push the setting apart from modern day comparisons. Most (in my games, at least) of these private contractors do have superhuman powers...

The forces of law have these things as well, but in a checks and balances way - they come after you if the waves you make are too big, but don't (IME) have mages and cyberninjas out on the regular beat cop patrols/backwoods security work.


Personally I like variety in the game - from elements of realism through to complete action movie bodycount stuff... I just like to know is which style of game the GM and group are playing before we start making characters. Figure the only time it's a problem is when people in the same group are on different pages.


My only occasional bugbear is something I've seen from one 'ice cold pro' GM was: He'd screw you over with things your character probably should have known.

He killed our group in the first session of one game because we forgot to destroy all the skin flakes and hair we'd shed in a car - we had ritual magic done on us with them. Kinda makes some sense, but if that's a regular consequence in the game I would have thought our 'pro' characters should know this?

When the scars faded and we let him run again, he screwed a player over for some unsecured comunications chatter - fair enough, but the player didn't know, the character probably should have done?

What I'm trying to get at is I like it when the characters knowledge adds an 'ice cold pro' edge to a game without the player having to think of every little thing.

Did your characters have the proper skills, knowledge or active that would have allowed them to actually be "Ice Cold Pros" or were they relying on OOC knowledge?

I think the Pink mohawk/vs professional issue was handled well in the movie "Smokin' Aces". it even had pink mohawks.. and a sniper with a 50 cal. sniper rifle...

a orc, a troll and a dwarf walked into a hotel...

If the characters all had some sort of security or forensics knowledge with at least a dice pool of 4, then yeah, I would say my characters would have the appropriate know-how to avoid this kind of stuff.
Also, I believe there is one part of the book that says the GM has to talk with the players before the game begins on how hard he will come on this kind of stuff, where they draw the line for "you must tell your character is doing this in order to happen" and "I assume your character is taking precautions for this already".

raise of hands, how many seasoned RPG GMs read the GM section of a new corebook?

It is unfortunate that your GM took this tack with your group, especially if a TPK was involved. It sounds like your GM is more roleplay oriented, which is fine if you are aware of his style (I am the same type of GM). This sounds very similar to some things that happened early in the current campaign I am running, but I did not take it to lethal levels off the bat.

The group had some wetwork to do, taking down an undercover Lone Star detective. They staked out his flop house for a few days from a vacant building. The first thing they noticed in the building was a foul smell, the next thing they noticed was that there was a dead homeless person rotting in the building with them. They chose to leave the body and go about their business. At one point I quizzed them about what they were eating, and if they were doing it in the presence of the body, and had them make some rolls to avoid getting sick because they were bringing in food, etc. Never once did they indicate that they were taking pains to make sure they disposing of their trash, or avoiding leaving other forensic traces. They did the deed out on the street, and when Lone Star came to investigate the murder, they also found the rotting corpse, and forensic evidence of the PCs stake out.

I could have shafted them easily enough, but I decided that there would likely be other forensic evidence on the scence not linked to members of the team, and the Star had a lot of leads to follow up on. They used ritual magic to track down one of the runners doing the stake out, and sent out a detective to pay him a visit the next day. The runner played it cool, but still raised suspicion in the interview. The Star was still in the preliminary stages of the investigation, and the runners fake SIN held up to a cursory check by the detective, so they did not haul him in. All involved were able to avoid the heat by burning SINs and abandoning prepaid Lifestyles. It taught them a lesson, but they only lost nuyen, not their lives. Now they make sure they clean up, but if they slack off about it, next time I won't be so kind.

*raises hand*

I read cover to cover. On the other hand, I ignore any GM advice that does not suit my style.

Listening to Aphex Twin's Windowlicker.

I think that at different times there is a time when players want something serious and sometimes when they want something they can drop their hair down for.

There are times when they want to play games like Heat and there are times when they want to play games like Airheads.

The problem I have had with playing heavily gritty games, like when I did with cyberpunk, is that at the end of the day the GM is not having fun and the players are not having fun. I mean there are only so many ways the GM can fuck over the players before the fun factor starts dropping.

In RL, if you are a professional criminal means you make your money primarily through criminal activities. You are an earner. You make money for your bosses, who have to make money for their bosses. If it involves gettin rich tourists drunk so they starts buying me over priced champagne or an hour in the VIP room, so be it. If it involves being a thug and using people as punching bags so they will pay up, so be it.

However, reality is not as sexy as movies, and games seek to emulate the sexiness of movies, not reality.
We all want to walk into a night club in our 12,000 dollar suits with a porn star on our elbow and a Lamborgini Guiado in the parking lot. Or alternatively looking like Arnold after the military surplus buy-out in Commando. Even if, we as players, are socially so limited that we have trouble with ordering a fast food meal at McDonalds, we still want the power trip that reality cannot provide.

Most criminals it is about two parts: getting caught and the pay-off. If you can guarantee an easy job with a big payoff, then it is worth it. Most criminal fraternities place a lot of power in prison. The small lie: you can get through prison you can get made, just get caught with the gun. The big lie: Your boss screwed up the heist and needs a fall guy. Sometimes you have no choice, you're an earner and you can't lose face.

There will be people who don't like hurting other people. There will be people who like hurting other people. Both can be criminals. Most don't get a choice about their likes.

Now, about Shadowrunners, they are portrayed by players who often want that slice of fantasy. They want the power trip, the control over their lives. They want the things their life does not provide, whether it is thrills or spills.

Sometimes the excess has to be cut back on, especially if it does not fit the genre of the game (Waingro in Heat). Other times the genre changes (such as in the crossing over from the U.S. to Mexico, going from a thriller to a vampire survival movie).

o/

Right now I have some involvement in both play styles. I'm running an Ice Cold Pro game & playing in a Pink Mohawk (well, crazy go-ganger) game with the same group. There has actually been very little change in the world between the two games.

The ICP game, most of the precations are taken automaticly, after a pre-game talk I had with the players before the first game. Agonizing over every little detail gets old after a while. The characters have formed a contracting 'company' complete with office and a secretary. They avoid doing things crazy or killing people (unless hired to do that) and make the big bucks. The only thing they focus on is the results.

In the PM game, we're all a bunch of crotch rocket riding Go-Gangers who have formed our own gang. Bloody and violent to the extreme at times, but most of it is directed at street people and other gangs (ie. nobody of note) so the cops aren't over our ass. Pretty much, style is everything. My character in it has pimped and blinged out bikes, pistols, knives, and an AK. Cool is the rule. But then, we all know that when we are out of the sprawl and in downtown Tampa, KE will slot our shi'at up.

It is rather interesting watching the same group of players switch from game to game.

Great post, everything you've said meshes with my experience with close relationships I've had with people from the opposite side of your profession.


Shoe endorsements wouldn't be that far fetched. The fluff makes mention of numerous ex-runners who went on to have trid shows with endorsements. What the heck was the name of that pirate down in the Caribbeans that had his own show? I always felt like his articles and fluff really made Cyberpirates.

As far as pink mohawks go, I don't really think that it'd be any bigger of a deal than the chrome monster sitting next to you at the table. A "punked out" runner would be able to blend into the crowded streets in the majority of Seattle and all but disappear into the sprawls. Now take a well worn sammie and try and make him blend in anywhere other than a soldier of fortune convention. Sure people go for the hardened street sam look but in a side by side comparison it's the same as the weekend warrior bikers you see today and a genuine road worn 1%er, you can tell which one you should be afraid of in a second. If there's anything we should keep in mind while playing SR it's that you can NEVER judge a person by their appearance. Real life is full of this (just do a little reading up on serial killers), and in a world where the cute little girl standing next to you in line at the stuffer shack might have enough hardware implanted in her to literally stuff your head up your own ass this is even more true.


This is a good thread.

Yeah, the problem is when one part of the group wants to play a ICP game and another part wants to play PM.
We keep teasing the PM player, because every section the GM must literally take a bunny out of his hat to save the PM player from being killed.
Last game though, he threw shit on the fan by killing the only link we had with the target that we were looking for. The mage turned him into goo, and left him there to be dealt with by the club's security. Unfortunately, he got out and swore revenge to us (he is a god damn wusha adept chinese ork with 15+ dice pool when shooting).

Easiest thing to do when people in the group want to play both styles is to have two games going. It also helps prevent GM burn out since they will get a chance to play. Seriously, I was about to call it quits on the ICP game since I was getting totally brain fried. The PM game (we played it every weekend for a month straight before settling down to back and forth weekly) let me relax and unwind.

Seriously, I suggest that everyone should try both styles of game. Hell, you could end up having more fun then you thought you would.

I try to be flexible as a GM, and make the style fit the way the group plays. When the group is mixed, though, I always lean more towards Pink Mohawk. The Pros can still do their thing if they want, and the fun and havoc created by the Mohawks will not cause dire consequences. Most of the time the Pros end up getting into the spirit of things, and adjust their characters to suit the style as the campaign progresses. I find it harder to get a Mohawk to act like a Pro, so this seems like the best solution to me.

Most of the group were new-ish to the game, but old hand roleplayers. The setting had been talked about for a while and people had a reasonable idea of the background... It was 3rd edition and I think I was the only player who'd played it before.

For our first outing, can't recall the exact makeup of the group, but there was a 'former company men' type and an ex cop/mage... was a 'sober looking group'. Lots of police and security procedures type skills in the group.

I didn't say anything as we were going along as I kind of assumed this was being taken care of off screen. Which was what I was used to from a previous GM. Showed me that assumption is the mother of all screw ups.

At least it was memorable! It still gets laughed at in RPG conversations from time to time. Did go towards showing me that I have more fun messing with players rather than killing them arbitarily. Unless they're really asking for it ofc.

Something like the example with Kerrang's Lone Star seems far more interesting and amusing to me than dropping stone dead from jacked up ritual magic/orbitally dropped anvil/etc. Guess they take cleaning agents/magic with them to stakeouts now?

To be fair, we just encouraged that GM to leave shadowrun alone and run more horror games - at which he excelled.



I wholeheartedly agree on this - I make a point of having a conversation about that and a what will/won't float before running a new campaign nowadays.

As an added bonus - I find lets the players and the GM come to an agreement about these sort of things - which I generally find more fun for all. Work out where the focus of the game is going to be.

Great thread. Shadowrunners vs. Professional Criminals. I play 3rd ed, but that hardly matters for this discussion. First off, I think there might be some misconceptions here about Professional Criminals. Not all pros belong to a gang or syndicate; many work solo or in a loose group. Some pros have a straight job, for cover or to make extra cash. Many pros have never seen the inside of a prison, and consider prisons to be for amateurs (even if some of them are gifted). Pros don't pull jobs on impulse; doing crime is their main job, and they are methodical in planning, and efficient in execution. Pros know the laws, and penalities for breaking them, and balance the risk/rewards carefully. The OP is right about progression of force, and some criminal oginizations have similar models; I have heard that certain Motorcycle Clubs have strict rules of engagement when confronting law enforcement officers, so as to limit the blowback.

Let's look at a long-standing criminal profession in any major urban area, the Pimp. Pimps don't usually have a straight job, they are too busy pimping. Pimps commit folonies almost every day, including assault, pandering, drug possesion and use etc. There are some pimps in prison, but not many because the crimes are usually small scale. There are always notable exceptions like Heidi Fliess, but overall a pimp is not ever going to be widely known for thier crimes. Do pimps in 2060 shadowrun? Only if they have a personal stake, like a missing 'prostitute', I should think. Not really the kind of 'pro' we are talking about, even if it is his job.

Now lets look at another criminal, the smuggler. Smugglers often have straight jobs that correspond with their methods, routes, etc. For instance, that coastal fisherman may indeed be catching and selling some fish, but he may also have a boatload of drug, guns, or people. While some smugglers might go to prison, there are others who have acted for years without the slightest hint of an investigation. Do our smugglers make shadowruns? Perhaps. They often have specailized local knowledge, custom vehicles, and plenty of contacts. They have down time between their smuggling runs, and can turn extra cash into product. This is closer to the Professional Criminal I imagine in my game.

Even so, pimps and smugglers seem more like contacts or buddies than PC's. Some characters are former criminals, (in my current campaign one of the PC's started with a Criminal SIN), but Shadowrunners are really not Professional Criminals. They are certainly percieved as such, and often commit plenty of felonies while on a run, but being a criminal is not their job. What do our PC's do between the shadows, or in other words, in between game sessions? In my experience, they spend their money and time trying to find new gear, learn new skills/spells, and find another job. My PC's do not ask if they can do some robberies, muggings, or smuggling to earn extra cash, even if they need it, and are more than capable. My players are not professional criminals. (If they indicated they did want to do these things, I would make an adventure for it, but it just isn't their mindset.)

Shadowrunners fall into a unique niche. To the media and the corps, runners are portrayed as criminals and terrorists, while really being used as pawns in a much larger game. I imagine that most common folk in 2060 believe the same thing, but there must be many, awakened and otherwise, who guess at the truth. Otherwise, why would the trid buzz at 3am with a worried looking contact on the line? Over the years, most players develop real characters with flaws and sometimes even emotions. They realize that killing a boatload of pursuers is likely to burn all thier assests, and get them all killed/locked up, but they also really don't want to kill a bunch or corp goons who are just trying to do thier jobs.

Many 'jobs' our runners complete could be done with less hassle and expense by in-house corperate assets, merc groups, or even some gangs, given time to plan everything. But Mr. Johnson never seems to have much time does he? Its dark, its raining, you just got home from a marathon session of clubbing, and your cell rings. Time to do work.

Paul,

I agree with a lot of what you've said. There's room in Shadowrun for the mentally unbalanced, sure, but they don't last long. Or if they do, it's only by moving around quite a bit.

Something to note, though, is that when you go on to claim that local, county, state, federal, and international police will hunt someone down for doing XYZ, well... in the splintered world of Shadowrun, adding in corp-sec, extraterritoriality, etc... I doubt most policing agencies would be willing to cooperate. It's easier to slide away into the shadows that exist between these massive conglomerates and government entities, even if you are a pink mowhawkers. So I think there exists shades in the runner community; and you don't have to be the ice-cold professional to make it, the tough-as-nails street-smart ganger can make his cut too. As long as they're both not stepping on the wrong toes, the big guys have more to worry about than them.

I will say this though about the way I run Shadowrun; I've never liked the idea of the sheer number of Shadowrunners that are apparently active in the sixth world. I mean honestly, LA has freakin' REALITY TV about 'em! I try to scale that back; the guys hired by corps, governments, etc. - the true "deniable assets" are from a small, ultra-competitive pool that includes your ICPs and your tough-as-nails merc/gangers (on some occassions). But in my mind, the idea of what makes a shadowrun isn't always ultra high-tech laboratories with secret research projects, but also the street-level "one gang wants to take out another gang and make it seem like they didn't do it" kind of runs. Take some unknown gang, dress 'em up like a rival, and send 'em into a warehouse to kill a whole ton of fucking people. That flies in the face of ICP, but hell - it still says Shadowrun to me!

Anyway, I liked the discussion this has engendered and I look forward to reading more. I think what it all boils down to though is that characters, not worlds, make Shadowrun fun. If the crazy characters are the most fun... well then hell, make 'em crazy! And if it's more fun to be the invisible killer... well then hell, that's just what you do! The diversity is endless and the fun is limitless if you're looking in the right places for it.

While not knowing the PC's stats, IMHO this is not good GMing on your GM's part. A GM should realize that his friend is (probably) not a carreer shadowrunner. And that alot of the obvious stuff, like make ing yourself less visiable to cameras, casting low-level sterilize spells, and other forms of covering your track should be second nature. If the GM needs it for storyline purposes he should mention this to player that his PC thinks that he needs to do X to cover his tracks, he should say so and give the player a chance to do it.

Otherwise what will happen is that you will have the players describing everything they do to cover their tracks, and this can bog the game down considerably.

Example:
GM: You pass by several store cameras as youwalk down the street.
Player: Hold on..let me hack the first stores system and edit my self out of the picture. (20 minutes later after resolving the matrix) Ok, now on to the next store.....

I think this is way over sold. Why wouldn't they cooperate, at least at a basic level? It benefits almost everyone to cooperate, and rarely benefits anyone not to. Yes the world has balkanized. yes, authority figures have less checks and balances. But I think it's pretty unrealistic to sell this too hard.

Sure, here and there there will be some dick swinging and measuring, and a few snubs-but I think all of that would be behind closed doors, and not general public knowledge. Most security providers in the sixth world sell themselves as either being the "Cops", or just as good in public. And why wouldn't they? Most people have it ingrained to cooperate with the police right? Why not take advantage of that sentiment?

I've seen some inter-agency dick swinging first hand, having worked with the State Police, the FBI, and interstate Agencies on the Gang task Force I work. Most of it is personality clashes, less of it is Agency clashes. Most people welcome help, because frankly we've got way too much on our plates as is.

This especially true in cases no one wants. Passing off high profile stuff, or sensitive cases isn't unknown or unheard of.



Oh, I agree it's easier than it would be if all of these agencies were under the same umbrella. And I agree there is certainly bound to be lag time in communicating between Agencies, even in the Sixth World.



Absolutely I agree.



We're on the same page here. I see the Community as being very small, and not public knowledge. I've removed a lot of what I call the "Nerps Aspect" in my games. There a lot of people who are edgy-performance artists, street prophets, people who amass cults of personality, etc...But rarely are these the kind of people who remain as "Shadowrunners". I approach "Canon" with a razor blade and a chain saw.



I think there's room for all that and more. We've run games as Government Agents; we've run Campaigns that started with 90 point characters trying to take over their block; we've run games where the PC's were photo journalist's for the national Geographic; we've played Saeder Krupp Special Forces; we've played Vampire Hunters and paranormalists; we've played Con men and Hustlers. After 20 years we still have fun.



Speak the Word!

In my 20 plus years of running games, I have rarely had to kill a PC. There's just so many other fun options. Now if death is the right tool for the right job, then so be it. But I can get amazing mileage out of crippling, maiming, hideously deforming, robbing, violating, folding, spindling and mutilating my PC's; their contacts and Dependents.

No one gets out alive, in the end!

It all depends on the setting doesn't it? There are varying degrees of dystopian. Your world can be like Mad Max, lawless ruled by the strongest and most cunning. Or like V for Vendetta, where the government is completely oppressive, the populace controlled by brutal subjugation and mind control propaganda. And it can be subtly dystopian.

I like the extreme. In the game that I run, the Barrens are like Mad Max, and the Sprawl is like V for Vendetta. It is so different from RL, but so tantalizingly similar. I love to play around with these themes because it becomes a dark reflection of our society. In my world if Lone Star found a squatter rotting in a flop house they would call a cleaning company and send the city a bill. They are a for profit company.

In my world the word shadowrunner isused. In my world the "shadow" is a metaphor for the veil that the ultra rich and powerful use to obscure their true intentions and natures. It keeps everyone ignorant but also, perhaps unintentionally grants the criminally minded SINless with protection.

Its like ancient Rome, only the rich has any kind of protection, and the rest of the world are either slaves or barbarians.

You can be a cold professional if you want, but you can also be a psychopathic vampire, after all who's going to fuck with you, if you can turn their brains into pudding with a thought or if you have a million nuyen worth of cyberware and gear? And it's cheaper for the "authorities" to cover up the mess that you left behind rather than risk their necks in the Barrens shaking down a bunch of SINless.

True'dat! This right here is the thing that saves more pinks then anything else.

Yup! Pretty much standard. Unless you REALLY piss off the cops, get caught WHILE on the action, or kill a bunch of people, you should be home free.

So very true. Thanks bringing us back to this; grounding us again.

When I have some free time tonight or tomorrow I'll post up how I envision the world! Thanks everyone for making this an interesting read.

The same people who call private investigators "gumshoes," flight attendants "stewardesses," or anyone who works for the government "suits." It's a colloquial term for anyone who "runs the shadows," ie, does quasi-legal to wholly illegal and morally bankrupt things for hire. You pay them enough, and they get the job done.

I'm not really sure why you have such a problem with it or even why you wrote a small novella lamenting it. It's a broad term for a broad group of people all doing vaguely similar things. Whether your group is a 2070's version of the A-Team, a cabal of black-suited professional criminals, or a motley gang of street thugs willing to do whatever you pay them to do, you're a shadowrunner. And people will and do call them that, even if not to their faces.

Afterall, you know what people mean when they use the term. Why wouldn't people in-game? Especially when they're romanticized within the game's own media outlets.

Also Lawyers, who find every way in the world to retitle themselves, and then get retitled by everyone else in the world.
And Policemen, often clled 'cops' or 'bobbies' or 'the fuzz' or 'pigs' or whatever.
And Private Military Contractors, who are totally NOT 'merrcenaries', though this may be disputable because Mercenary is a term in and of itself...
And repairmen of all sorts, who may be called 'handymen' or whatever
Groundskeepers, who while NOT the same thing as 'gardeners' are called that anyways by the uninformed
...
I think I've totally gone off topic, and am not talking about the same thing as everyone else anymore. I'll shut up now.

You do understand that the "cops" are a rival corp and not a neutral party like the cops of today.
Extraterritoriality is a real boon to shadowrunner, most of the time
Page 23 of Runners Companion explains the reasons for non-cooperation pretty well under the title "Data Balkanization".

The last two I've heard in use, however the first I've only ever heard in movies. But I get your point..



There we go again with the moral bankruptcy. Maybe I'm just an eternal optimist, but seriously not everyone whop's a Criminal is morally Bankrupt.



I just do, and I had the time. You're welcome to post as many replies as you'd like to, or not like to. Vote with your posts.



Apparently my definition varies from popular opinion. I'll live.



Well, I guess I just don't seeing coming to pass that way. It's pretty colossally ghey, and frankly any moron who who's filming his crimes like an episode of a reality TV show deserves what they get. But that's at my table. If yours is different that's cool.



I do. (I really appreciate you giving me a page number too, because after 20 years of playing the game I might have missed that little tid bit.) What I'm saying is I don't buy into the way the game is written when it comes to a few things, one of them is how they handle this part of extraterritoriality. I don't think it makes sense. Like I said in my previous post, I see more benefit's to cooperating in this particular arena than I do not cooperating. Now I agree there's wiggle room.

In the end this is all just stylistic difference. I mean neither of us are writing Canon material, and this is just a thread, on a board on the internet.

What possible benefits would there be for Ares in helping Lone Star in their investigation of a shadowrun agains NeoNet.
And that question allready assums that NeoNet actually calls Lone Star to investigate, instead of just covering uo the whole think after quick profit calcualtions. It's all about the bottom line after all.

I like to call myself, a professional Problem. Or Problemsolver, depending on who is paying me how much to do what.