Hey all!

This is just sort of an interesting thing I decided to do, since I wanted to see what people would come up with. Using 250 BP for attributes and 100 Karma for... anything, really, and with a limit of 35 BP worth of Positive and Negative qualities, and AND INFINITE MONEY (and no restrictions on gear and ware), can you build the most deadly MUNDANE (Read: No Adepts, Bio or otherwise) Street Sam Ever? Delta and Beta grade cyberware is encouraged.
Race: Human.
No SURGE. Aside from those restrictions, go to it! And remember, he doesn't need to be playble in the least.

Couple q's: do we need to use the Karma for skills etc? so we get 250 bp atts, 35 bps +/- quals, and 100 karma for everything else?

Also what sort of metrics are you looking for in terms of "deadly"? Does our guy need to survive getting hit. Just looking for some goal posts here.

Robocop/Terminator or Street Preacher Levels of Deadly.
Can survive most anything, should be able to kill with most anything too.
So, MBW 3 Delta, Agility Stuff, Built in Armor and Damage-defying i think.

Unlimited money? For me, the money's on full Delta cyberbody and Move-By-Wire 3 plus something else in a custom cybersuite.

Karma and BP would go toward skills and contacts, with a few knowledge skills relating to killing.

Oh, and I'd buy a zeppelin plus several hundred bombs. How's that for deadly?

Nah, not BOMBS . .
first, magical stealth and shielding for the zeppelin.
second, naval grade lasers/gauss cannons/rail guns.
third, ?????????????
fourth, PROFIT!

Here's roughly the deal: build the character with 250 BP for attributes, I guess I'll specify another 150 BP for skills, knowledge skills (on top of the free ones), and contacts at base, 35 BP +/ - qualities, and 100 Karma to improve him/it even more, via more skills, attribute raises (use 4A costs), specialization, and so on.
Deadly as in he can survive mostly anything and dish out as much damage as possible - being somewhat stealthy and sort-of viable isn't a ad thing, but killing and surviving shit comes first. Basically a super-soldier, if you get my drift. But not just amoving gun - he has to be good enough and connected enough to get to and plan the shit he does.

I guess left it open for the lazer zeppelin .
But seriously, I meant things like cyberware, bioware, nanotech, genetech, delta everything, super-modded weapons, super-modded armor, awesome gear, etc.
I guess you could include a really modded out citymaster or something if you REALLY wanted a vehicle. But that's not the point...
So... I guess unlimited money for the sort of thing I said above. And cybrsuites are a-OK, though I'd prefer you kept it somewht reasonable (somewhat, as the entire point of the post is a bit of absurdity)
If you have any further questions to specify the challenge, go ahead and ask. Good luck!


Edit: Oh yeah, and if you're willing, try and put the character out in a full sheet - like with all the skills, gear, attributes and so on listed, so we can all take a look.

Biodrone edition from Ghost Cartels, with all the agumentation goodness. IPs 5. Red line limbs. Done.

Can you buy more qualities with the karma?

question is, is it super sam...or serious sam?

sorry couldn´t help a of topic joke

Dammit, I'm having trouble using all the BPs and karma. A infinitely wealthy troll who doesn't need to buy physical attributes and can skillwire skills is pretty inexpensive!

Metatype: Fomori (45BP) Ghoul (35BP)

Attributes: 180BP
Body – 10 (0)
Agility – 1 (0)
Reaction – 3 (20)
Strength – 8 (0)
Charisma – 3 (20)
Intuition – 4 (30)
Logic – 4 (40)
Willpower – 5 (40)
Edge – 5 (40)

Active Skills: 72BP/88karma
Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannon) 7 (20/42)
Blades (Cyber-implants) 7 (20/42)
Dodge (Ranged) 4 (16/2)
Perception (Visual) 4 (16/2)

Knowledge Skills: Free
Academic: Biochemistry 4
Interest: Sports 4
Language: Or’zet 4
Language: Japanese 4
Professional: Security Procedures 4
Professional: Security Design 4
Street: Ares Macrotechnology 4
Street: Seattle Fixers 4

Positive Qualities: 35BP
Ambidexterity
Aptitude – Heavy Weapons
Aptitude – Blades
Biocompatibility – Cyberware

Negative Qualities: -35BP
Augmentation Addiction
Combat Monster
Wanted
Weak Immune System

Contacts: 18BP
Yakuza Lieutenant (4C,4L)
Ares Cyberdoc (2C,4L)
Black Market Dealer (3C,1L)

Geneware: 1.2e
Adapsin (.1e)
Daredrenaline (.1e)
Genetic Optimization – AGI, BOD and STR (.6e)
Sideways (.4e)

Cyberware: 4.125e
Deltaware Move-By-Wire 3 (1.5e)
Deltaware Titanium Bone Lacing (.45e)
Deltaware Rating 5 Cybereyes (.15e)
Deltaware Rating 4 Cyberears (.15e)
Deltaware Obvious Cyberskull (.225e)
Customized AGI 6, BOD 16, STR 14
Deltaware Obvious Cybertorso (.45e)
Customized AGI 6, BOD 16, STR 14
Deltaware Obvious Left Cyberarm (.3e)
Customized AGI 6, BOD 16, STR 14
Deltaware Obvious Right Cyberarm (.3e)
Customized AGI 6, BOD 16, STR 14
Deltaware Obvious Left Cyberleg (.3e)
Customized AGI 6, BOD 16, STR 14
Deltaware Obvious Right Cyberleg (.3e)
Customized AGI 6, BOD 16, STR 14


Bioware: 2.3e
Deltaware Enhanced Articulation (.15e)
Deltaware Orthoskin 3 (.375e)
Deltaware Reflex Recorders – Heavy Weapons, Blades, Dodge, Perception, Stealth (.3e)
Deltaware Platelet Factories (.1e)
Deltaware Reception Enhancer 3 (.3e)
Deltaware Trauma Dampers (.1e)
Deltaware Sleep Regulator (.075e)
Deltaware Symbiotes 3 (.3e)
Deltaware Toxin Extractor 6 (.6e)

Pretty straightforward. I didn't bother listing anything that didn't cost BP, Karma or Essence because money is unlimited and capacity is plentiful, but imagine I seasoned it with stat enhancements, cyberware armor, milspec armor with strength boosters, three different assault cannons and all that jazz. The only choices I feel the need to explain are A. I'd've gotten more social skills, but those come on activesofts and I could just load them up as needed and B. I didn't feel the need for any gun skills beyond Heavy Weapons because I could get a microgrenade launcher implanted, which is plenty of ranged action for when the gyro-stabilizer and Panther need to stay home. After all, if I made the cyberlegs raptor legs and strapped in cyberskates, I'm running 23 meters/second, so I'm never too far from melee range (using my spurs, of course).

Unlimited money? 250BP attributes? 150BP skills etc +100 Karma? Well, lets see what we can do with this here then...

Ok, so the basic stuff first. Attributes, skills & contacts


And here is his cyber/bioware:


And now, for some other assorted gear:


So his combat pool is going to be 15 base most of the time for firearms, and 14 for other weapons. Not the MOST optimised possible, but pretty close for a non-elf considering he has that dice pool in everything.
Body Resistance is 9+armour, which will be 20/19 or 14/10 depending on what he is wearing. He ingores all stun due to the pain editor, and reduces what damage is taken thanks to platelet factories+trauma dampener.
Defense is 12 base for Reaction 10+2 from reakt, and then you get dodge in close combat and have the option of full defense for many more dice. He has radar in his head and can fire his Ares with 2 Long-Bursts without taking any recoil (or a grenade-launcher short burst. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!)
He is combat kill, but also has fair contacts and social skills aswell, and the fact that he is a cyber-ninja isnt immediately obvious
Ok, so what do you think? I think it be very very silly.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and i still had 4 karma left over. Forgot about that

I think he said we have to make Humans. Also, what is the ruling on Adapsin? Can we have 2 levels of that before implanting everything else?

Man, that took me WAY longer to type than i had intended it to

And mcAllistor, i believe it was meant to be humans

I tried a build without cyberlimbs, but ended up slipping in a cyber lower leg. I also avoided biocompatibility since everyone is using it. The few skills he has are maxed because he has a crap ton of skillsofts for everything else tweaked out. I don't think you'll be able to fit any more 'ware into him though, since he is pretty much at the limit without going CZ. Oh, and I still have 76 karma unspent.

The character is built as an Ares research 'project' that is undergoing active field testing.

Jack Hatcher
Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, Jack going to f*** you with his fist!

Attributes & Qualities
Skills
'Ware
Gear
Pools & Other Stuff
Yes, they are that silly. Yes, he rolls 19 dice to bitch slap someone.

Adapsin has no levels.

Haha, this is heating up into some really amusing builds. I found the Fomori ghoul cyber-man very interesting, but I DID say to make a human. Also, Adapsin is cool - use it if you'd like.
To InfinityzeN - how'd you get all your skills to 7 and 8 with an aptitude only in Dodge? Sort of confused, though I'm probably missing a piece of ware somewhere in your build.
To make matters even crazier, I'm going to add a second challenge - anybody want to try their hand at making a really fucked up cyberzombie?

Reflex Recorder

And a CZ with unlimited budget gets out of hand really quickly.

Pretty much why I did it - this is purely for fun and speculation to see HOW out of hand it can get.

No meta, no surge? Then how do I get arcane arrester?

What would change if I took my build from troll to human... very little. Bump charisma up to 4, intuition up to 5 and edge up to 7. He gets a little nicer, a little quicker on the uptake, a good bit luckier and a little more agile (because we can now customize the cyberlimbs to 6, and augment them to 9) and loses a bunch of body and strength (but still has 11 and 10 respectively; go ghoulism!), a point of reach and arcane arrester. Overall a loss, but that's what would change.

I want to see what I'd put in the arms. The left arm would have the grenade launcher, an external clip port and 3 agility, and the right arm would have cyberspurs, 3 agility, 3 strength, a gyromount and 3 armor. I'm thinking a point of armor will usually be better than 2 points of agility, because they add together instead of being averaged and will lead to most damage being downtracked to stun.

Also, replace the sleep regulator with a pain editor. I forgot that the pain editor keeps you standing when stun overflows, whereas sideways (the genetic infusion) does not. Also, it helps a bit against spells.

EDIT: ooh, I forgot to add +2 to willpower for being a ghoul. Although I also forgot that charisma now hardcaps at 4, so I don't have the points for that. I guess I'll stick with 3 charisma, and add a 5/5 fixer contact. Between being able to use any skill like a pro (because if you can get all the activesofts, you can also get them all pluscoded and personalized) and having some good friends, the only barrier towards this guy being able to do his job is the fact that his appearance is a bit attention-getting.

Not technically but 2 treatments gets you a 10% reduction in Essence costs.

BTW, I love Unarmed Combat (Bitchslaps!)... I may have to rip that off at some point.

I thought ONE treatment got you a 10% reduction in Essence costs, and there was no such thing as multiple treatments of geneware.

"If the subject as previously"

Note: previously was originally in italics in the book but wasn't preserved in my cut and paste. Requoted for emphasis. It also says that you cannot take it at character creation and thus falls under one of those "if the GM allows it" items and didn't want to assume (although stupid in hindsight with +100 Karma and unlimited cash <shrug>)

Hmm, the way I read that was "Adapsin reduces the Essence cost of implanting cyberware (but not bioware) by 10% (round normally) if the subject has undergone adapsin EPE treatment PREVIOUSLY TO HAVING THE CYBERWARE INSTALLED." Meaning, adapsin applies to cyberware that's installed after the adapsin treatment, but not before. IIRC, there's no point in getting an adapsin treatment if you already have one.

Me thinks McAllister needs "Spoiler" assistance. Don't look at me, I'm in no condidtion for that sort of thing.

Hmm, i didnt want to split the firearms group with karma specs, but i you could do it. I supposed i'm so used to statting up 400BP characters that it never occurred to me.

Curses! I forgot about adapsin! I am not going to go re-calcing everying though, so my submission stays the way it is

Infected can't get geneware, the virus overwrites all changes to the genome. [/nitpick]

But besides that, fomori ghouls are probably the scariest sams around...if this challenge wouldn't be restricted to humans, i'd suggest changing ghoul to sasabonsam (+1 Reach instead of claws) and, of course, get some SURGE as well.

If we can build CZs, i've got a couple of questions :

-how do we calculate negative Qualities accquired during cybermancy? If there's no guideline for this, we could just go to Essence -6 to squeeze as much as possible out of the attributes.

-if we want to buy attributes above the old unaugmented maximum, but below the new, post-cybermantic maximum, do we have to pay points above 6 with karma or BP?
E.g., if i want to give a CZ with Essence -2 a WIL of 7, can i just pay 60BP or do i have to spend 40 BP to raise WIL to 5 and then pay 65 karma to raise it to 7?


Besides that, as far as the physical attributes are concerned, here's what i'd do with a -6 Essence CZ :
Don't blow any points on BOD, AGI and STR.
Get Genetic Optimization for all Attributes (at least for all the physical ones), along with Adapsin.
Zombify.
Get full cyberlimbs with Bulk Mod+4, customize BOD, STR and AGI to 13, then augment at least AGI to 19 (Exceptional Attribute for, say, AGI 21 optional).
Slap on as much Cyberlimb Armor as possible (woohooo, it all stacks!), but leave room for at least one nanohive.
Use any remaining Capacity to augment BOD.

Reaction could, in theory, be brought up to 19 as well (one would have to buy it up to 9 beforehand, then get MBW3, Suprathyroid Gland and Reflex Enhancement3).

I'd get Reakt, Synch and Qualia geneware as well, along with any other compatible means to boost perception (Attention Coprocessor, that bioware thing, fully tricked out eyes and ears, Radar Sensor, cybersniffer).
Reflex Recorders for all major skills would make it on the list as well, along with nanites and some bioware for good pathogen and toxin defense.
I'd also include Trauma Damper, Platelet Factory and Blood Circuit Control System.
Oh, and a Balance Tail.
And, of course, Skillwires with Skillwire Expert System.
LOG and CHA enhancing stuff seems pretty irrelevant for this challenge, but there'd certainly be room for some of that, too.

Wonder if i've forgotten anything...and wether we actually need delta ware when we can get down to -6 Essence.

Even for something like this, i honestly dont think CZ's are something that players should be going anywhere near. Build Points/karma simply cease to have much meaningful input once you get Skillwires 5 in the MBW and make yourself a full-cyberbody. Especially when you have unlimited money, as that is really the only constraint on cyberzombies at all.

Great Scott! I forgot about that. Also that aptitude can only be taken once. I'm fixing it again.

Metatype and Attributes:

Skills:

Qualities and Contacts:

Ware and Equipment:

Hmm... good question for the first one. I guess I'll just rule that post-'bp' stage, at least for cyberzombies, you can't pick up new neg. qualities. With the karma, you're free to get new positive ones, though.
For the second one, I'm thinking Karma. Just cause.
and that's a pretty scary build...

Not even close to being finished, since your talking crazy stuff for a CZ. I went without any cyberlimbs at all, no suite, and no adapsin. Only thing really is 'ware, since this is my build idea. And yes, he does hit -6.0 essence exactly. The guy is a total mad dog killer, with no social abilities what so ever and only some brains in his head because of bioware. I didn't spend any Karma and only 400 BP total (250 in attributes).

The build

Ohh a challenge....

Human...
Mystic adept or magician (10-15BP) (possession tradition - custom)
Biocompatibility (10BP) - cyber
Mentor Spirit (uhhh)

35BP negatives.

250BP attributes:
Bod5, Agi1, Rea1, Str1, Cha2, Int5, Log5, Wil5, Edg6, Mag5(1) <-- 1 point left after augmentations, spend karma 10karma at a time to raise mag from 1->2... then raise it up to get a good possession, don't forget to get the initiate grade in channeling.

Augmented:
Bod9, Agi9, Rea9, Str6(9 on one arm w/ cyberspur, cyberlimb gyro on the other), Cha2, Int5, Log8, Wil5, Edg6, Mag5

All Bio-cyber delta, (plus adapsin, 30% cost on cyber, 40% essence on bio (halved to 20%)).
MbW3 (30%). 1.5 essence
Full cyberbody (30%). 1.875 essence. (94 capacity, +6 boxes phys track... I'd put a cyberspur on one side ).
Cybereyes and ears (max rating) .3 essence


Bioware: (0.32 essence 1.6 * .4 /2)
Cerebral Boosters (.6), Enhanced Articulation (silly but .3), Platelet Factories (0.2), Pain Editor (0.3). Trauma Dampener (.2)

Total Essence loss: 3.995. Leaving 2 essence and 1 magic out of chargen


13 karma: Channeling
16 karma: Ally spirit (yes we possess ourself w/ the ally spirit!)
~50 karma: one hell of a nice ally spirit to possess ourselves with (no services to worry about and further enhance all physical attributes, as well as permanently buff ourselves w/ things like movement power, concealment, magical guard, etc.)
More karma: buy specializations as needed.


Skills:
Knowledge/language/interest: (8+5)x3 == 39 free ranks

16BP perception4
16BP Dodge4
40BP Stealth 4

40BP firearms 4
16BP blades 4 (for the cyberspur)
24BP Heavy Weapons (white knight, grenade launchers, and the gauss rifle!)
16BP Counterspelling *hehe take that mages*
Thrown weapons..etc.come to mind as well. But we're already over... w/ room to trim things down.

Unlimited equipment also means unlimited skillwires if you think about it.... And one hell of a tricked out cybercommlink cluster w/ kickass agents to defend it.

Troll levels of armor NOT including cyberarmor (even if we limit cyberarmor to 16 points (4 in each arm & leg). Rediculous levels of damage soak even w/ ItNW, the hardened armor threshhold probably doesn't matter much.

How's that for a rough draft of an idea.

The challenge was no magic or adepts, with a human base.

Haha... talk about losing sight of the goal...

In any case, I started off w/ just attempting to make a street sam like normal.... then I realized I had enough essence left over to actually have a magic score and allow possession. (basically only to allow the cheesy aspect of possession to creep in... figured gaining +4 or 5 to all the stats at the end would make it pretty silly. here's a Human street sam... yeah he has a 15/15/15/15 physical stats and soft-maxed mentals... oh and counterspelling (suck it mages)).

In any case, that still leaves a lot of points free then for other stuff. (genetic treatments, exceptional attribute, more skills).

I tried to keep w/ the flavor of using heavy cyber w/ some bio (at it's severely reduced essence cost) to make it a bit scarier.

Are Cyberzombie characters allowed to buy off accrued negative qualities with karma they get during play? Because if so, that could make a cyberzombie suprisingly playable.

What are the Reality Amp: Focus, Oracle, and Red Alert things? Programs to run on a tacnet or something? And what book are they in?

Reality Filters are from Unwired, which I've never bothered to read cover-to-cover. They're in the section just before tacnets. They're the BTL version of combat drugs; you can get addicted to them (as they mess with your emotive track in the special way only hotsim can), but Oracle highlights important sensory data (+2 meat perception), Red Alert adds +1 or 2 to initiative but sabotages extended tests, and Focus allows perfect concentration despite distraction (great for things like Neocortical Boosters, which add dice to logic-linked skills when distractions are absent, eh?)

Not sure you can run more than one at once, but I'm also not sure you can't, except Red Alert and Focus are explicitly exclusive.

Buying off negative Qualities is always something up to GM discretion.
It's possible in theory, but the question is a) wether the quality is reversible at all and b) wether the character has undergone then means necessary to buy the quality off.
But with many of the possible CZ handicaps, PAB reprogramming is a valid treatment, so this may actually be a method to keep CZ functional for a much longer time (not that having to undergo constant brainwashing makes CZ any less fucked up, of course, but at least it could prevent them from drifting off completely).

However, sufficiently stable subjects (those with good Intuition and Willpower scores) will most likely not accquire additional negative Qualities during the first two or three years in service.
There's still the issue of the Qualities that appear during the initial cybermantic ritual, of course.
Wether these are severe enough to render the character unplayable depends on factors such as mental resilience of the subject, the skill of the involved magicians and how far the procedure takes the patient below zero.
No one will make it through cybermancy unscathed.

There's always at least 10BP of negative Qualities to be applied, no matter how well the ritual went.
As a GM, i would mandate that every CZ will always have to live with at least this amount of cybermancy-related negative Qualities.
In my opinion, cybermancy still takes a massive price even though CZ are by the 2070s actually able to survive and function normally for several years and this should be reflected adequately in game.
A CZ shouldn't just be a supersam with ridiculous amounts of ware, it should always be clear that something is wrong about him on a very fundamental level, right from the beginning.
As well, (un)living as a CZ will certainly take a toll over time.
Once you've spent about 4-7 years as a CZ, additional problems appear almost automatically with each month.
Constantly sinking karma and money for psychologic treatment may slow this process down or even halt it (at least for some time), but in my opinion, patients at this point are in such a desperate state that even the thought of having to portray such a complete wreck every session makes me uncomfortable.

However, it may be interesting to play a CZ at the earlier stages, given that the power level of the group is high enough.

Their in Unwired. They can be run at the same time, with the exception of Red Alert and Focus (One hits the nervious/twitchy button while the other hits the calm & cool button). I didn't include the in his actual numbers.

BTW, what did you think?

I like the build. If it were me, I think I would have been tempted to use at least some cyberlimbs and pack even more armor on there. But with the 12/12 hardened armor from being a cyberzombie, it's hardly needed and pretty much a personal preference. It's already a nigh-unstoppable tank, and you'd need something damn near a great dragon to kill it.

Yep, and he is pretty cherry to. I didn't spend any of the XP and he has massive development potential. Also he can buy two hits on the crazy test right now and reasonably roll three, so he can last for a while without going bonkers. Of course, that goes up as he dumps karma into intuition and willpower.