Thanks Glyph, I was aware of the first aspect of the use of combat pool on defense. (mages had nothing to spend on but defense generally)
I was more curious about it in general though. What about the street sam or adept. If you found yourself in an encounter where it was important to silence the opposition relatively quickly, but w/o taking damage. How common was it for them to use their pool more for defense than offense.
Given how hard it was to heal damage in prior editions. Damage avoidance makes a lot more sense is the tack I'm trying to understand. However in SR4, you're more likely to take some damage from a lot of things. So thus lightweight healing is more necessary to the SR4 rules than to prior rules. I'm wondering if that theory pans out.
On the second:
IIRC, that was 15 dice against the TN == the targets willpower.
Then 6M would roll against a TN of half the spells force/2(rd) + mods. Again, fuzzy her, it then staged the damage down D -> S -> M -> L -> nothing for every 2 hits. Not reduced the power outright?
Also, there were other complications IIRC. A lower force would net more hits, more hits staged up damage while keeping the drain's TN a lot lower. However, that doesn't recall quite correctly in my mind.
Mind you I went from playing SR1 -> 4, w/ only glancing at the SR3 rulebook ages ago, never playing it.
Full Version: Reigning in Mages and Mystic Adepts
Generally, the mage rolled against a base TN of half of the spell's Force, with whatever modifiers. Exclusive or fetish modifiers reduced the spell's Force for the purpose of Drain only. So if you cast Manabolt (with a Drain equal to the Damage Level/2) at Force: 6, but with a fetish modifier, its effective Force would be 5, divided by two and rounded down to give a TN of 2 for the Drain resistance.
To affect the target, the mage still needed more net hits than the target for direct combat spells. But the mage was rolling against a TN of the victim's Willpower, while the victim was rolling against a TN of the spell's Force. So having a Willpower of 6 actually meant something - you were twice as hard to affect as someone with a Willpower of 5. You were still often defending against a 2-to-1 dice disadvantage, not good odds. 6's can be elusive buggers, though, so even tossing 12-15 dice, the mage could come up empty. But as Willpower got lower than 6, it got exponentially easier to overcome.
For Drain, it was generally a choice between casting it at a damage level of, say, M, and hoping to stage it up, versus casting it at D, and only needing a single net hit to kill the target - but also needing 8 successes to soak it down to nothing. In the case of a mage with 12 dice for Drain, rolling against a TN of 2, that actually was still doable. For a mook with Willpower of 3, though, you didn't even need to bother. Cast it at M, and you would likely stage it up to D fairly easily. And M is easier to soak (requiring 4 less successes), which is especially meaningful for spells with higher base Drain.
To affect the target, the mage still needed more net hits than the target for direct combat spells. But the mage was rolling against a TN of the victim's Willpower, while the victim was rolling against a TN of the spell's Force. So having a Willpower of 6 actually meant something - you were twice as hard to affect as someone with a Willpower of 5. You were still often defending against a 2-to-1 dice disadvantage, not good odds. 6's can be elusive buggers, though, so even tossing 12-15 dice, the mage could come up empty. But as Willpower got lower than 6, it got exponentially easier to overcome.
For Drain, it was generally a choice between casting it at a damage level of, say, M, and hoping to stage it up, versus casting it at D, and only needing a single net hit to kill the target - but also needing 8 successes to soak it down to nothing. In the case of a mage with 12 dice for Drain, rolling against a TN of 2, that actually was still doable. For a mook with Willpower of 3, though, you didn't even need to bother. Cast it at M, and you would likely stage it up to D fairly easily. And M is easier to soak (requiring 4 less successes), which is especially meaningful for spells with higher base Drain.
Falconer, I don’t think I’ve actually “crossed that line�. Come on, be honest (with yourself) here: in what other post have I seriously suggested to NerfTM Mages at all? I’m usually the one arguing they aren’t as powerful as people think they are. There are really two arguments running in parallel in this thread (which wasn’t my intention when I put up the OP):
First: It is my belief that it is inappropriate for Drain damage to be healable with anything but time and rest, and that it would make MORE sense to me if it were possible to do it with magic than mundane methods if it WERE possible, as opposed to the way it currently has been left to stand.
Second: I don’t think First Aid should represent “permanent� healing of injuries for a number of reasons I don’t need to repeat.
Unfortunately, those two have become quite well entangled in the course of discussion. While I feel they are both appropriate, and that they relate to each other, I don’t feel they constitute the same argument at all.
I have no interest in returning to the “Bad old days� which were REALLY bad for Mages. But under current rules for healing, even just laying in bed at home, an average person (BODy 3) heals 2 boxes of Physical Damage per day of bed rest. So, same average person takes 7 days to recover to full health from death’s door step (10 boxes Physical Damage and 2 of their 3 Overflow boxes filled). That’s pretty incredible, don’t you think? With medical intervention by a skilled and experienced physician (Let’s just call it LOGic 4 and Medicine 4, 3 assistants, R6 MedKit, and of course that -2 Awakened penalty since we’re discussing Mages) That same person is up in a little under 3 days on average. Even using the optional sidebar rules on healing, using only BODy rather than BODy x2, Death’s Door to Full Health in 6 days is proof of just how good Medicine in 2070 is. Now, going with BOTH sidebar rules (BODy rather than BODy x2 AND apply wound-modifiers to the test), those numbers go to “never� at home alone (BODy 3 …quot;1 Conditions …quot;3 Wounds = -1 Net) and the middle of the 9th day in the same hospital. Actually, now that I did the math (yay for ExcelTM), even with both options used, it’s not as bad as it used to be, but then again, that’s medicine in 2070, so go figure.
Was your point C about diminishing returns paraphrasing me or agreeing with me? I just keep tossing out “6 boxes� because it’s the reasonable MAXIMUM you could expect. With no DP caps in place, patching up right after the fight would be something like (FirstAid 2 + Trauma specialization 2 + LOGic 4 + MedKit R6 +1 assistant -1 Indoors since it’s AFTER the fight -2 Awakened or four points of ‘ware) 2 boxes (could have been 4 by Hits except for the low First Aid). With the DP caps, it’s still 2 boxes, but it could have been up to 3 2/3 boxes by Hits. Essentially, it’s going to be limited to the Medic’s skill. Now, if you decide to go with a LITERAL reading of the rules, the MedKit adds its rating directly to the user’s skill, meaning an unskilled person with LOGic 4 can heal 2 2/3 boxes between fights indoors, or in the first example you could heal 4 boxes, easy.
As to the barrier, I was thinking that a single barrier-type spell would be less draining than the flurry of Stun Bolts needed to knock all those guards flat, especially since we’ve demonstrated (and I think it was YOU that pointed it out) that you’ve got to cast at really high force to have a reasonable chance of one-shotting an average guard. Most humans are VERY reluctant to run through a curtain of flame of ANY kind, which is why flamethrowers are such effective psychological weapons in combat AND why the Flamethrower spell, despite the mechanical game penalties, is still an effective tool in combat. If the GM has average guards or even average HTR members in anything but completely sealed military-grade armor run though a curtain of flame without checking for morale in some fashion, they’re ignoring the (meta)human element of this entirely.
I think, regards to E, that I was saying the SAMMY using the gun, not the Mage. I don’t refer to 3rd Ed, since I didn’t like it; I refer to 1st and 2nd. And it never DID make sense to me that magic wasn’t “dialable� in earlier editions. For the record, I thing that the 4th Ed magic system is mechanically the best I’ve ever seen in any game system. Note: the argument about Drain being healable is actually an argument about the HEALING rules, not the rules for magic.
The trick of holding dice for Drain meant you could mitigate the effects of higher Force spells, but then you weren’t getting the potential you might have anyway so it was a bit of a wash compared to going full-pool on a lower base Force.
I agree with your comment about the elimination of threats. I would add the addendum, however, that avoidance also constitutes elimination because you have removed it as an impediment to your mission.
You’re arguing with the wrong person about the early and often use of StunBolt. I think it’s a DANDY spell as written, and completely disagree, personally, with the people who want to NerfTM it. That being said, aren’t you the one who pointed out you needed something like force 8 to reasonably guarantee dropping said guard with one shot? You want to make sure they go down so you’re shooting for 11 Stun, right? Taking into account whatever, a F6 isn’t likely to cut it, unless you’ve got a net 15 DP after all modifications, in which case I hope you aren’t using that new optional rule about “1 Drain per +1 damage� for DD spells. Or did I get that wrong?
OK, taking things as separate arguments and not one combined, this serves to better balance things and I feel it’s more realistic. But does it MATTER to the success of that particular ‘run if the damage is permanent or not? On the ‘run, you’re more worried about wound modifiers most of the time. Unless you’re getting WAY into your damage tracks, having to take three or four days after the ‘run to rest up shouldn’t be much of an issue. For that matter, laying low for a few days after is often a good idea anyhow! I still don’t feel it should apply, under any circumstances, to Drain - which is a separate argument.
If you change the “duration� of the Combat Turn, all sorts of other things start to morph too. Hmmm, now that you bring it up, damage from bio-feedback shouldn’t be “fixable� either, but that’s another can of worms. But if we’re saying you’re applying analgesic meds, insta-splints, wound powders, trauma bandages (scary things IRL, how well they do the job), coagulants and even nanites as a means to control pain and keep wounds from worsening, I actually am not too worried about that taking 30 seconds or less, because frankly, a lot of tech’ is pretty wiz in the 6th World. I just disagree with the ability of the (meta)human body to keep up regards to actually healing itself properly in that short a time without magical (read: direct life energy) assistance.
I’m not sure you’re quite right about the relative fragility, because the target numbers can’t get stupid huge like they used to, that you NEEDED high pools just to get a chance. Fundamentally, unless you’re an Adept with lots of levels in something, the best ANYBODY is doing is reducing the “quality� of the hit, even on Full Dodge, unless the other person’s a pretty piss poor shot. REAction 3 + DODge 3 = 6 DP to get the drek out of the way, so if they got you with 3+ Hits, you’re probably taking the shot. Mages are only restricted on armor by the fact that their BODy isn’t as high as a Sammie’s, but there’s always the Armor or Deflection spell, even at low forces, in a sustaining focus. Consequently, I think Mages are either as survivable or MORE survivable in 4th Ed than previous. That’s purely my opinion, however, and it’s going to depend in VERY large part on the play style of your table and the “capabilities� of the opposition (i.e.: is the GM letting them pick out the Mage early and easily so they can play “geek the Mage first!�).
Drain on SOME characters COULD be disgustingly easy to deal with, but by the same token, if you’re careful and smart, it’s not insurmountable now, even if you can’t heal it with a MedKit afterwards; It just means you have to me even more careful and smarter.
I’m not asserting anything, Falconer. You and I have had that discussion before, and you’ve stated clearly what your feelings are. The last paragraph of my above “spoiler’ed Wall of Text� was in no way addressed to you. If you felt it was because I brought up your name earlier, I apologize because it was not.
You really run into aspected background counts that often? I seriously didn’t read it as being that common when I read the section. If that’s how you’re playing it at your table, then it would almost HAVE to cloud your perceptions of needs and average Force levels.
“Going Nova�; What an interesting description. Given my own quirky background I’d be more likely to call it “Going Death-blossom� but that’s probably a bit too far afield for many people to get. But whatever you call it, there ARE times when that’s absolutely the appropriate thing to do. It’s heroic, it’s cinematic, and when it works, it’s impressive as maulk. Like I keep saying: I think a Mage should husband their strength until needed, but when needed, put forth whatever it takes.
As an aside, since you weren’t addressing me with your opening paragraph, but you know, Falconer, after reading your bit about illusions and drones, I am thinking that just maybe you have a point. On the one hand, maybe it’s a good power-balance (read: NerfTM) on some of the abuses I have seen of illusion spells. On the other hand, that DOES mean that a Mage has to cast F5 Improved Illusion to stay invisible to hovering drones while regular cameras can’t see them at F3, and THAT doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, either. Maybe it’s worth a thread all its own?
First: It is my belief that it is inappropriate for Drain damage to be healable with anything but time and rest, and that it would make MORE sense to me if it were possible to do it with magic than mundane methods if it WERE possible, as opposed to the way it currently has been left to stand.
Second: I don’t think First Aid should represent “permanent� healing of injuries for a number of reasons I don’t need to repeat.
Unfortunately, those two have become quite well entangled in the course of discussion. While I feel they are both appropriate, and that they relate to each other, I don’t feel they constitute the same argument at all.
I have no interest in returning to the “Bad old days� which were REALLY bad for Mages. But under current rules for healing, even just laying in bed at home, an average person (BODy 3) heals 2 boxes of Physical Damage per day of bed rest. So, same average person takes 7 days to recover to full health from death’s door step (10 boxes Physical Damage and 2 of their 3 Overflow boxes filled). That’s pretty incredible, don’t you think? With medical intervention by a skilled and experienced physician (Let’s just call it LOGic 4 and Medicine 4, 3 assistants, R6 MedKit, and of course that -2 Awakened penalty since we’re discussing Mages) That same person is up in a little under 3 days on average. Even using the optional sidebar rules on healing, using only BODy rather than BODy x2, Death’s Door to Full Health in 6 days is proof of just how good Medicine in 2070 is. Now, going with BOTH sidebar rules (BODy rather than BODy x2 AND apply wound-modifiers to the test), those numbers go to “never� at home alone (BODy 3 …quot;1 Conditions …quot;3 Wounds = -1 Net) and the middle of the 9th day in the same hospital. Actually, now that I did the math (yay for ExcelTM), even with both options used, it’s not as bad as it used to be, but then again, that’s medicine in 2070, so go figure.
Was your point C about diminishing returns paraphrasing me or agreeing with me? I just keep tossing out “6 boxes� because it’s the reasonable MAXIMUM you could expect. With no DP caps in place, patching up right after the fight would be something like (FirstAid 2 + Trauma specialization 2 + LOGic 4 + MedKit R6 +1 assistant -1 Indoors since it’s AFTER the fight -2 Awakened or four points of ‘ware) 2 boxes (could have been 4 by Hits except for the low First Aid). With the DP caps, it’s still 2 boxes, but it could have been up to 3 2/3 boxes by Hits. Essentially, it’s going to be limited to the Medic’s skill. Now, if you decide to go with a LITERAL reading of the rules, the MedKit adds its rating directly to the user’s skill, meaning an unskilled person with LOGic 4 can heal 2 2/3 boxes between fights indoors, or in the first example you could heal 4 boxes, easy.
As to the barrier, I was thinking that a single barrier-type spell would be less draining than the flurry of Stun Bolts needed to knock all those guards flat, especially since we’ve demonstrated (and I think it was YOU that pointed it out) that you’ve got to cast at really high force to have a reasonable chance of one-shotting an average guard. Most humans are VERY reluctant to run through a curtain of flame of ANY kind, which is why flamethrowers are such effective psychological weapons in combat AND why the Flamethrower spell, despite the mechanical game penalties, is still an effective tool in combat. If the GM has average guards or even average HTR members in anything but completely sealed military-grade armor run though a curtain of flame without checking for morale in some fashion, they’re ignoring the (meta)human element of this entirely.
I think, regards to E, that I was saying the SAMMY using the gun, not the Mage. I don’t refer to 3rd Ed, since I didn’t like it; I refer to 1st and 2nd. And it never DID make sense to me that magic wasn’t “dialable� in earlier editions. For the record, I thing that the 4th Ed magic system is mechanically the best I’ve ever seen in any game system. Note: the argument about Drain being healable is actually an argument about the HEALING rules, not the rules for magic.
The trick of holding dice for Drain meant you could mitigate the effects of higher Force spells, but then you weren’t getting the potential you might have anyway so it was a bit of a wash compared to going full-pool on a lower base Force.
I agree with your comment about the elimination of threats. I would add the addendum, however, that avoidance also constitutes elimination because you have removed it as an impediment to your mission.
You’re arguing with the wrong person about the early and often use of StunBolt. I think it’s a DANDY spell as written, and completely disagree, personally, with the people who want to NerfTM it. That being said, aren’t you the one who pointed out you needed something like force 8 to reasonably guarantee dropping said guard with one shot? You want to make sure they go down so you’re shooting for 11 Stun, right? Taking into account whatever, a F6 isn’t likely to cut it, unless you’ve got a net 15 DP after all modifications, in which case I hope you aren’t using that new optional rule about “1 Drain per +1 damage� for DD spells. Or did I get that wrong?
OK, taking things as separate arguments and not one combined, this serves to better balance things and I feel it’s more realistic. But does it MATTER to the success of that particular ‘run if the damage is permanent or not? On the ‘run, you’re more worried about wound modifiers most of the time. Unless you’re getting WAY into your damage tracks, having to take three or four days after the ‘run to rest up shouldn’t be much of an issue. For that matter, laying low for a few days after is often a good idea anyhow! I still don’t feel it should apply, under any circumstances, to Drain - which is a separate argument.
If you change the “duration� of the Combat Turn, all sorts of other things start to morph too. Hmmm, now that you bring it up, damage from bio-feedback shouldn’t be “fixable� either, but that’s another can of worms. But if we’re saying you’re applying analgesic meds, insta-splints, wound powders, trauma bandages (scary things IRL, how well they do the job), coagulants and even nanites as a means to control pain and keep wounds from worsening, I actually am not too worried about that taking 30 seconds or less, because frankly, a lot of tech’ is pretty wiz in the 6th World. I just disagree with the ability of the (meta)human body to keep up regards to actually healing itself properly in that short a time without magical (read: direct life energy) assistance.
I’m not sure you’re quite right about the relative fragility, because the target numbers can’t get stupid huge like they used to, that you NEEDED high pools just to get a chance. Fundamentally, unless you’re an Adept with lots of levels in something, the best ANYBODY is doing is reducing the “quality� of the hit, even on Full Dodge, unless the other person’s a pretty piss poor shot. REAction 3 + DODge 3 = 6 DP to get the drek out of the way, so if they got you with 3+ Hits, you’re probably taking the shot. Mages are only restricted on armor by the fact that their BODy isn’t as high as a Sammie’s, but there’s always the Armor or Deflection spell, even at low forces, in a sustaining focus. Consequently, I think Mages are either as survivable or MORE survivable in 4th Ed than previous. That’s purely my opinion, however, and it’s going to depend in VERY large part on the play style of your table and the “capabilities� of the opposition (i.e.: is the GM letting them pick out the Mage early and easily so they can play “geek the Mage first!�).
Drain on SOME characters COULD be disgustingly easy to deal with, but by the same token, if you’re careful and smart, it’s not insurmountable now, even if you can’t heal it with a MedKit afterwards; It just means you have to me even more careful and smarter.
I’m not asserting anything, Falconer. You and I have had that discussion before, and you’ve stated clearly what your feelings are. The last paragraph of my above “spoiler’ed Wall of Text� was in no way addressed to you. If you felt it was because I brought up your name earlier, I apologize because it was not.
You really run into aspected background counts that often? I seriously didn’t read it as being that common when I read the section. If that’s how you’re playing it at your table, then it would almost HAVE to cloud your perceptions of needs and average Force levels.
“Going Nova�; What an interesting description. Given my own quirky background I’d be more likely to call it “Going Death-blossom� but that’s probably a bit too far afield for many people to get. But whatever you call it, there ARE times when that’s absolutely the appropriate thing to do. It’s heroic, it’s cinematic, and when it works, it’s impressive as maulk. Like I keep saying: I think a Mage should husband their strength until needed, but when needed, put forth whatever it takes.
As an aside, since you weren’t addressing me with your opening paragraph, but you know, Falconer, after reading your bit about illusions and drones, I am thinking that just maybe you have a point. On the one hand, maybe it’s a good power-balance (read: NerfTM) on some of the abuses I have seen of illusion spells. On the other hand, that DOES mean that a Mage has to cast F5 Improved Illusion to stay invisible to hovering drones while regular cameras can’t see them at F3, and THAT doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, either. Maybe it’s worth a thread all its own?
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 7 2009, 09:15 PM) 
<<Not the first post using larger or special fonts.>>
If ALL CAPS irritates me, then larger and special fonts really really irritates me and I wants to post abusive text in reply, but I will not. Thank you for being considerate.
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 7 2009, 08:25 AM)
If ALL CAPS irritates me, then larger and special fonts really really irritates me and I wants to post abusive text in reply, but I will not. Thank you for being considerate.
I'm not sure what went wrong with that last post. I wrote it in WordTM because I knew it would be a little long, and I didn't entirely trust the editor in here. For whatever reason, it came out looking like that. I'm sorry, but that's as good as I could get it to come out for whatever reason.
@Karenshara, I typically compose in Notepad if I don't want to lose a longer post to a browser hang or something. Also, you can dump from Word to Notepad, and then C/P from Notepad to here if you want to strip the formatting.
QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 7 2009, 09:53 AM)
@Karenshara, I typically compose in Notepad if I don't want to lose a longer post to a browser hang or something. Also, you can dump from Word to Notepad, and then C/P from Notepad to here if you want to strip the formatting.
Brilliant! Why the grapp didn't I think of that? Let me try it and repost.
<Edit> That worked! Brilliant! I'll remember that from now on.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 6 2009, 10:01 PM)
1. Tymeaus... read the rules. Illusion spells while not cast on a target, MUST BEAT THE OBJECT RESISTANCE OF THE VIEWER.
Similarly, I can't get a lower object resistance on a drone by targeting say the tires, on a drone w/ powerbolt. Declaring that you only need the OR3 of the camera is exactly the same. At what point do you cross the threshhold between a more complex machine made of simpler machines and change the object resistance? (rather pointless to have OR5 drone, if I can target say the plasteel casing which forms the dobermans leg for a lower OR).
Do I fully agree w/ the above, no. But that's how the book reads to me, and it does make some sense. Needing force5+ on an illusion to use it w/ 5+ hits is a bit of overkill. And I believe the best way to address that is to reduce their drain codes (because people will probably have to recast them to get them w/ sufficient levels of force). (I think the classic case is powerbolting the aircraft, as opposed to powerbolting it's 'skin').
Similarly, I can't get a lower object resistance on a drone by targeting say the tires, on a drone w/ powerbolt. Declaring that you only need the OR3 of the camera is exactly the same. At what point do you cross the threshhold between a more complex machine made of simpler machines and change the object resistance? (rather pointless to have OR5 drone, if I can target say the plasteel casing which forms the dobermans leg for a lower OR).
Do I fully agree w/ the above, no. But that's how the book reads to me, and it does make some sense. Needing force5+ on an illusion to use it w/ 5+ hits is a bit of overkill. And I believe the best way to address that is to reduce their drain codes (because people will probably have to recast them to get them w/ sufficient levels of force). (I think the classic case is powerbolting the aircraft, as opposed to powerbolting it's 'skin').
I have read the rules, and I disagree with you on the illusion spells... you are not trargeting the Drone directly... therefore the viewing device (Sensors) or "Cameras" are what is seeing the illusion... therefore, according to the very obvious fluff and crunch... Sensors are OR3... and as an aside, I am NOT targeting specific items on the drone... the drone in interfacing with the Illusion in a manner that requires observation, thus the lower OR Threshold... If I wanted to harm the drone, I would use a Powerbolt and hope for my 5 hits...
Seems pretty cut and dried to me, and is what is used at our table...
QUOTE (kzt)
Then you are making sub-optimal choices. All the prep work you can do off-site you do off-site, well before you are standing in the shadow of the fence. It's like getting over the fence and having to stop and drive back to weapons world because nobody remembered to bring any ammo. You don't leave major astral traces outside the target and take the risk of a botched summoning right outside their perimeter. You summon off-site, well before you need to, where you are can recover if you get unlucky.
You took that in the worst way possible. I didn't say, or mean to say, that I would walk up to a corp facility and then summon a spirit. I mean that playing an experienced Runner I would use my resources, which includes a non-bound spirit slot. I'd summon it early in the evening/day, rest up if I got hit with drain, and have it on stand-by in case things went to hell. My point was specifically that I would use what I had, including summoning a high-Force Spirit, not that I would stand there like a dumbass.
Falconer: It's no more personal than your posts. You get involved, so do I. I'm arguing in good faith. In fact, I'm having fun.
Kerenshara, I'll take our discussion to PM's, as it has little to do with the OP. Please forgive me if it takes a few days for me to finish my response.
I actually think Kerenshara is right; there are two issues at issue now.
First: FA shouldn't apply on drain: While prohibiting FA on drain isn't a houserule, per se, I think it does qualify as a nerf because it specifically inhibits magicians. The more I read and think about FA (see below) the less I see the need for the nerf. Magic can't heal drain. The "one set of wounds" rule means they will still stack mods up.
Second: FA permanently healing damage: It's an abstraction. I can see how the time-frames involved could disconcert you. Personally I'm willing to allow it simply based on the technology of the time and the need for the characters to not spend month on months getting better. That reminds me of the bad old days of 2nd Ed Dnd where you could only 3 hp/day under strict circumstances. The crazy part was high-level characters would spend more time resting up than low-level ones. I'm on the fence.
If you want to convert FA to allow it to ignore damage as opposed to heal it, go for it. That makes a better mental line between FA and Medicine to me.
I think a lot of the concern over FA could be solved by a careful perusal of the rules for it. 1: It can't be used in conjunction with magical healing, so you go medkit or mojo. 2: It can only be used once for a set of injuries. Assuming you have the time to sit there and medkit up every party member after they catch a scrape, there will on average still be some mods stacking up. More importantly every time they roll is an opportunity for a glitch.
I think there is a lot of room for interpretation about "set of wounds." Is a set of wounds what the shot up Sam possesses when he sits down at the street doc, or is it broken down into sets as determined by what specific action did them? If the Sam got shot three times, and then stops to bandage up, can he make three rolls, or one roll? It reads like only one role, so chances are good with his neg mods from wounds or whatnot there will still be damage. So, in play the medkit slows down the accumulation of wounds, but doesn't eliminate it. If you wanted to alter it slightly you could say FA only works once per instance of injury. The character uses up the good FA can do him, and then he has to make it to full health again before it will do him any more good. Conceptually, the drugs, stitches, wound dresses, and care of FA can only help so much. At some point, he needs rest or someone with Medicine.
How would you change FA if you wanted it to not actually heal wounds? Would you just have it ignore wound mods?
Tymeaus: We'll discuss in the other thread.
Totentanz:
No, you have things in your post wrong as well.
Firstly: aiding drain is pure RAW & pure RAI. (they didn't change it w/ SR4 -> SR4a, despite NUMEROUS chances to errata). Not allowing it, is by definition a pure house rule.
Secondly: First aid MUST BE USED PRIOR TO MAGICAL HEALING. They both can be used, but if you use magical healing first, that's it. So that's another big thing you have wrong.
The last part, one 'set' of wound is pretty much universally accepted to be all damage taken between healings. Though it's not uncommon to see someone try and rules lawyer it to the most advantageous of, each individual bullet wound is a set of wounds.
Karenshara:
Actually first aid is capped at higher of skill or medkit rating. You can only heal 6 boxes w/ a rating 6 skill or rating 6 medkit. (theoretically, you could get 10boxes max, w/ medidept 7(10)... but I've never seen it).
Maybe a better way to handle it is to change the cap (EG: (Medkit+Skill)/2== max healable amount... low skilled players just can't get the full benefit of the medkit). Another suggestion would be changing the availability on medkits to say Ratingx4 or5 availability. (24 or 30 avail on a rating 6 medkit would make finding and restocking it a royal pain)
Also, another modifier that's commonly forgotten is the essence loss penalty. That makes healing bio/cyber-adepts a real pain.. as they're easily down 3 or 4 dice to start.
My only point on pool size was that a maximized pool is not the same as a typical pool. If someone wants to be a one trick pony, then that's their schtick. Yes it's important to know the outlying case, but it shouldn't be taken as the norm.
As far as SR4 healing, yeah I agree it can be rediculously fast. Especially for high body chars.
But I think that's partially stylistic. It's no fun to have a character knocked out of play for months at a time. And it's a nod to fun over realism. The sidebar on page 252 of SR4a clearly states this.
It suggests two rules which I think would go a long way towards fixing your problem.
First suggestion:
Apply wound modifiers at negative pool mods.
If reduced to 0... the character can't heal w/o medical assistance.
Second Suggestion:
Use body instead of bodyX2.
By that one... your 10 box down 3bod char would be unable to heal unless under medical care. -3 wound penalty on top of 3 body == no dice. He'd need some serious medical attention, and even then... glitches and critical glitches will make his life miserable on the puny dice pools after an aid (if only rolling 1-4 dice glitches become a big problem).
On the defense through offense (tank through gank)...
Two potential routes...
1. Cast high force accept the force/2 -2... then just overcome wilpower w/o splitting pools. This is the most straightforward and works best if there's significant penalties in play. (sustaining, visibility, bgc, counterspelling, magical barriers, etc.)
2. Multicast lower force, this potentially has more damage... however, works best when dealing w/ mundane puds. If you add any counterspelling this doesn't work. This also tends to require significant bonus dice to add after the split which is costly in terms of nuyen & karma (power focus, spellcasting focus, bound spirit ($$$$), lesser bonuses from specialization/mentor). However just as multicasting gives multiple bonus dice... it also gives multiple penalty dice (one target may be standing in the spotlight plain view, and the other concealed in the shadows w/ significant visibility penalty. That's why modifying dice are added after the split. However if they're both in bad visibility or behind a masked ward... you get double whammied. Say 2 guards behind a force6 masked ward each w/ wil3, now each roll 9 dice to resist w/o counterspelling).
In either case, you want to get your damage from the force of the spell, not from adding net hits. As drain goes up by half force damage, but by 1 per net hit w/ the SR4a optional rule. (I actually like that one a bit.. even though it makes dropping even weak targets w/ single castings really hard).
The bigger problem w/ mages and overpowered IMO is certain types of mages. Combat mages while they get a lot of flak are actually pretty weak compared to a street sam. (unless you're running into a lot of ItNW type stuff). But that's really no different than the street sam being superior than the mage when the drones come out to play.
The real problem mages IMO is the mindrapers. Start combat... turn pud against his own allies... rinse repeat as necessary until you run out of puds. I think the mental manipulations are a bit too fast acting and a bit too effective. Possession is similar... possess pud, turn him into meat puppet and give him major stat boosts at the same time.
There's also another "problem" which comes up. People say a mage can do this that and the next thing because of spell, X, Y, and Z. But does the mage actually KNOW spell X, Y, and Z. Buying spells turns into a MAJOR karma investment. So while Mage A can do this, Mage B can't. So there's an illusory problem of mages appearing to be able to do more than a character mage actually can. Also, people seem to always assume the mage is mentored and specialized in every spell example.
As far as background counts, according to the text. WEAK background counts are supposed to be relatively common, especially in urban areas! If you're not using them, then your mages will be a bit more rampant. And quite frankly, especially for corps... it makes sense to aspect them to their advantage when possible. A 1 point bgc is an annoyance to everyone... but if you aspect it, it turns into a 2 point swing in favor of the puds. Which allos you to field a lowskill wage mage and actually have him stand up to a starting runner. Also keep in mind there's a difference between an aspected BGC, and a basic BGC.
And lets face it, how many people are going to get the starfighter reference. Death blossom indeed :). Definately apt for multi-casting stunbolts. One big explosion seems more 'nova' or 'big bang' to me though for a single area effect spell.
Totentanz:
No, you have things in your post wrong as well.
Firstly: aiding drain is pure RAW & pure RAI. (they didn't change it w/ SR4 -> SR4a, despite NUMEROUS chances to errata). Not allowing it, is by definition a pure house rule.
Secondly: First aid MUST BE USED PRIOR TO MAGICAL HEALING. They both can be used, but if you use magical healing first, that's it. So that's another big thing you have wrong.
The last part, one 'set' of wound is pretty much universally accepted to be all damage taken between healings. Though it's not uncommon to see someone try and rules lawyer it to the most advantageous of, each individual bullet wound is a set of wounds.
Karenshara:
Actually first aid is capped at higher of skill or medkit rating. You can only heal 6 boxes w/ a rating 6 skill or rating 6 medkit. (theoretically, you could get 10boxes max, w/ medidept 7(10)... but I've never seen it).
Maybe a better way to handle it is to change the cap (EG: (Medkit+Skill)/2== max healable amount... low skilled players just can't get the full benefit of the medkit). Another suggestion would be changing the availability on medkits to say Ratingx4 or5 availability. (24 or 30 avail on a rating 6 medkit would make finding and restocking it a royal pain)
Also, another modifier that's commonly forgotten is the essence loss penalty. That makes healing bio/cyber-adepts a real pain.. as they're easily down 3 or 4 dice to start.
My only point on pool size was that a maximized pool is not the same as a typical pool. If someone wants to be a one trick pony, then that's their schtick. Yes it's important to know the outlying case, but it shouldn't be taken as the norm.
As far as SR4 healing, yeah I agree it can be rediculously fast. Especially for high body chars.
But I think that's partially stylistic. It's no fun to have a character knocked out of play for months at a time. And it's a nod to fun over realism. The sidebar on page 252 of SR4a clearly states this.
It suggests two rules which I think would go a long way towards fixing your problem.
First suggestion:
Apply wound modifiers at negative pool mods.
If reduced to 0... the character can't heal w/o medical assistance.
Second Suggestion:
Use body instead of bodyX2.
By that one... your 10 box down 3bod char would be unable to heal unless under medical care. -3 wound penalty on top of 3 body == no dice. He'd need some serious medical attention, and even then... glitches and critical glitches will make his life miserable on the puny dice pools after an aid (if only rolling 1-4 dice glitches become a big problem).
On the defense through offense (tank through gank)...
Two potential routes...
1. Cast high force accept the force/2 -2... then just overcome wilpower w/o splitting pools. This is the most straightforward and works best if there's significant penalties in play. (sustaining, visibility, bgc, counterspelling, magical barriers, etc.)
2. Multicast lower force, this potentially has more damage... however, works best when dealing w/ mundane puds. If you add any counterspelling this doesn't work. This also tends to require significant bonus dice to add after the split which is costly in terms of nuyen & karma (power focus, spellcasting focus, bound spirit ($$$$), lesser bonuses from specialization/mentor). However just as multicasting gives multiple bonus dice... it also gives multiple penalty dice (one target may be standing in the spotlight plain view, and the other concealed in the shadows w/ significant visibility penalty. That's why modifying dice are added after the split. However if they're both in bad visibility or behind a masked ward... you get double whammied. Say 2 guards behind a force6 masked ward each w/ wil3, now each roll 9 dice to resist w/o counterspelling).
In either case, you want to get your damage from the force of the spell, not from adding net hits. As drain goes up by half force damage, but by 1 per net hit w/ the SR4a optional rule. (I actually like that one a bit.. even though it makes dropping even weak targets w/ single castings really hard).
The bigger problem w/ mages and overpowered IMO is certain types of mages. Combat mages while they get a lot of flak are actually pretty weak compared to a street sam. (unless you're running into a lot of ItNW type stuff). But that's really no different than the street sam being superior than the mage when the drones come out to play.
The real problem mages IMO is the mindrapers. Start combat... turn pud against his own allies... rinse repeat as necessary until you run out of puds. I think the mental manipulations are a bit too fast acting and a bit too effective. Possession is similar... possess pud, turn him into meat puppet and give him major stat boosts at the same time.
There's also another "problem" which comes up. People say a mage can do this that and the next thing because of spell, X, Y, and Z. But does the mage actually KNOW spell X, Y, and Z. Buying spells turns into a MAJOR karma investment. So while Mage A can do this, Mage B can't. So there's an illusory problem of mages appearing to be able to do more than a character mage actually can. Also, people seem to always assume the mage is mentored and specialized in every spell example.
As far as background counts, according to the text. WEAK background counts are supposed to be relatively common, especially in urban areas! If you're not using them, then your mages will be a bit more rampant. And quite frankly, especially for corps... it makes sense to aspect them to their advantage when possible. A 1 point bgc is an annoyance to everyone... but if you aspect it, it turns into a 2 point swing in favor of the puds. Which allos you to field a lowskill wage mage and actually have him stand up to a starting runner. Also keep in mind there's a difference between an aspected BGC, and a basic BGC.
And lets face it, how many people are going to get the starfighter reference. Death blossom indeed :). Definately apt for multi-casting stunbolts. One big explosion seems more 'nova' or 'big bang' to me though for a single area effect spell.
Currently, I can heal up to 6 boxes of damage using "First Aid". Assuming a rating 6 medikit, first aid 6 and logic 6 I get 18 dice, so I usually can get 4 net successes, healing 4 boxes due to it being a threshold 2 test. So I can literally erase the damage of someone who got shot in the chest by a pistol in 12 seconds of work. Pretty cool trick party trick, eh? This suggests that something is wrong with the basic concept of first aid in SR4.
If you them allow this to work on drain this means that if I'm a mage I can reliably overcast huge spells that will pretty much nuke all opposition and expect that less than 30 seconds later I'm good as new. For example I take 7 physical drain from a F12 spell if I have a magic of 6. Assuming I have 9 dice I can expect that on an average day I'll take 3P and 12 seconds later I'm fine. This means that a mage can reliably can drop everyone within a 24 meter diameter. And do it silently, invisibly, and can do it from a mile or more away.
The best part is that drain doesn't produce any "wound" for someone with first aid to try to fix. So it doesn't really make any sense for someone to be able to fix this with a bandage.
If you them allow this to work on drain this means that if I'm a mage I can reliably overcast huge spells that will pretty much nuke all opposition and expect that less than 30 seconds later I'm good as new. For example I take 7 physical drain from a F12 spell if I have a magic of 6. Assuming I have 9 dice I can expect that on an average day I'll take 3P and 12 seconds later I'm fine. This means that a mage can reliably can drop everyone within a 24 meter diameter. And do it silently, invisibly, and can do it from a mile or more away.
The best part is that drain doesn't produce any "wound" for someone with first aid to try to fix. So it doesn't really make any sense for someone to be able to fix this with a bandage.
Well, you're right it says FA has to be used before magical healing.
You are also right about the drain. I thought there was wiggle room until I re-read the relevant sections.
As for the wounds, I'd go with that interpretation, too. However, there is definitely room for different interpretations here, as the examples do not clarify sufficiently for me. It can also, as I previously stated, be interpreted to mean that the character can only benefit from FA once until they are fully healed. The examples aren't clear about whether the FA "slot" frees up when you have another "set" of wounds or whether you have to get healthy again and then can use FA. Conceptually, I can see both.
Jeez Falconer, if I didn't know any better I'd say you were getting personal. : P
It suggests that FA in the 6th World has advanced to a substantial degree. If you think that is wrong, then change it for your group. I see nothing wrong, just like I see nothing wrong with Orks, Trolls, and eyes being ripped out on street corners and replaced.
Yes, you can erase the damage of a gunshot wound if you have the best equipment available to science, the highest skill in FA allowable without a quality, and are the smartest a human can be without a quality. I'd expect you to work miracles at that point. You can do something amazing with amazing equipment, skill, and talent. Grats.
1: Negative penalties apply to FA rolls.
2: The spell might not be seen, but the caster is going to light up like a Christmas Tree (SR4A Page 179 - Noticing Magic).
3: Yes, you can do this. It can also be done to you. Eggshells with hammers, right?
It's specifically talking about healing tests here, but I think the text is still informative. The damage rules are intended to be abstract in order to keep characters involved and having fun. I don't see anything wrong with that. Advanced tech genres use accelerated medical technologies all the time.
Except...
Emphasis mine. I hate to use fluff for an argument point, but that sounds like physical damage to me. Bandages, analgesics, burn creams, etc would be perfect for this.
They use the headache thing a lot for the normal drain damage. If that is the case, how about aspirin? FA kits include a lot more than just dressings.
You are also right about the drain. I thought there was wiggle room until I re-read the relevant sections.
As for the wounds, I'd go with that interpretation, too. However, there is definitely room for different interpretations here, as the examples do not clarify sufficiently for me. It can also, as I previously stated, be interpreted to mean that the character can only benefit from FA once until they are fully healed. The examples aren't clear about whether the FA "slot" frees up when you have another "set" of wounds or whether you have to get healthy again and then can use FA. Conceptually, I can see both.
Jeez Falconer, if I didn't know any better I'd say you were getting personal. : P
QUOTE (kzt)
Currently, I can heal up to 6 boxes of damage using "First Aid". Assuming a rating 6 medikit, first aid 6 and logic 6 I get 18 dice, so I usually can get 4 net successes, healing 4 boxes due to it being a threshold 2 test. So I can literally erase the damage of someone who got shot in the chest by a pistol in 12 seconds of work. Pretty cool trick party trick, eh? This suggests that something is wrong with the basic concept of first aid in SR4.
It suggests that FA in the 6th World has advanced to a substantial degree. If you think that is wrong, then change it for your group. I see nothing wrong, just like I see nothing wrong with Orks, Trolls, and eyes being ripped out on street corners and replaced.
Yes, you can erase the damage of a gunshot wound if you have the best equipment available to science, the highest skill in FA allowable without a quality, and are the smartest a human can be without a quality. I'd expect you to work miracles at that point. You can do something amazing with amazing equipment, skill, and talent. Grats.
QUOTE (kzt)
If you them allow this to work on drain this means that if I'm a mage I can reliably overcast huge spells that will pretty much nuke all opposition and expect that less than 30 seconds later I'm good as new. For example I take 7 physical drain from a F12 spell if I have a magic of 6. Assuming I have 9 dice I can expect that on an average day I'll take 3P and 12 seconds later I'm fine. This means that a mage can reliably can drop everyone within a 24 meter diameter. And do it silently, invisibly, and can do it from a mile or more away.
1: Negative penalties apply to FA rolls.
2: The spell might not be seen, but the caster is going to light up like a Christmas Tree (SR4A Page 179 - Noticing Magic).
3: Yes, you can do this. It can also be done to you. Eggshells with hammers, right?
QUOTE (SR4A Page 254)
The default rules opt for fast recovery times from injury in the interest of getting characters back in the game.
It's specifically talking about healing tests here, but I think the text is still informative. The damage rules are intended to be abstract in order to keep characters involved and having fun. I don't see anything wrong with that. Advanced tech genres use accelerated medical technologies all the time.
QUOTE (kzt)
The best part is that drain doesn't produce any "wound" for someone with first aid to try to fix. So it doesn't really make any sense for someone to be able to fix this with a bandage.
Except...
QUOTE (SR4 Page 163)
Fatigue numbed the pain from the magic and her burned hands.
Emphasis mine. I hate to use fluff for an argument point, but that sounds like physical damage to me. Bandages, analgesics, burn creams, etc would be perfect for this.
They use the headache thing a lot for the normal drain damage. If that is the case, how about aspirin? FA kits include a lot more than just dressings.
It's a crazy day, but I want to illustrate my problem with First Aid and how the rules are currently written.
(I cribbed from the comments I made in another thread.)
In Dungeons & Dragons (3.x) the average 1st level character had 8 "boxes" of damage, and could go 10 "boxes" into the hole before dying. A 1st level Cleric can cast Cure Light Wounds, which will heal an average of 5 points, or around 28% of the most damage the character could take before dying, and it takes 6 seconds. In Shadowrun, an average character can take 12 "boxes" of damage before dying (8+[3/2 round up]+3 overflow), and a veteran paramedic with Veteran level of skill (3) and Trauma Specialization (+2) and an above average LOGic (4) using a Rtg 6 MedKit indoors will heal on average 3 boxes most of the time. That's 25% of max, and it takes 9 seconds. Not shabby for being mundane.
First Aid winds up being pretty close to being "magical" when you look at it by the numbers. After a battle (as soon as you're no longer being shot at), if you're indoors, your penalty drops from -3 to -1, which is what I used in my above calculations. If you capped number of wounds at the LOWER of MedKit or Skill (min 1) then that would make more sense to me, but the math above DOES NOT CHANGE.
Anyhow, I'll be back to this thread in a couple hours to go over a couple other things, but this was my key one.
(I cribbed from the comments I made in another thread.)
In Dungeons & Dragons (3.x) the average 1st level character had 8 "boxes" of damage, and could go 10 "boxes" into the hole before dying. A 1st level Cleric can cast Cure Light Wounds, which will heal an average of 5 points, or around 28% of the most damage the character could take before dying, and it takes 6 seconds. In Shadowrun, an average character can take 12 "boxes" of damage before dying (8+[3/2 round up]+3 overflow), and a veteran paramedic with Veteran level of skill (3) and Trauma Specialization (+2) and an above average LOGic (4) using a Rtg 6 MedKit indoors will heal on average 3 boxes most of the time. That's 25% of max, and it takes 9 seconds. Not shabby for being mundane.
First Aid winds up being pretty close to being "magical" when you look at it by the numbers. After a battle (as soon as you're no longer being shot at), if you're indoors, your penalty drops from -3 to -1, which is what I used in my above calculations. If you capped number of wounds at the LOWER of MedKit or Skill (min 1) then that would make more sense to me, but the math above DOES NOT CHANGE.
Anyhow, I'll be back to this thread in a couple hours to go over a couple other things, but this was my key one.
Stop me if wrong here but rating six is the new eight from SR3 right? So with the best general med kit in the world your pretty good at patching someone up? The only thing I would change here is the time involved. 9 seconds is not enogh time to deploy the cocktail of nanites and pain killers, let alone tissue bonders and coagulants.
I dont have a problem with the symbolic getting someone up and running and for book keeping leaving it there, with the previso their going be hurting for a while. But 9 seconds without wires? Perhapes not.
I dont have a problem with the symbolic getting someone up and running and for book keeping leaving it there, with the previso their going be hurting for a while. But 9 seconds without wires? Perhapes not.
Healing times ARE somewhat fast indeed in Shadowrun...
It's stated that it was intentional, and geared toward getting the PCs back in the action quickly. There are a couple of options given to make it slower and more realistic.
Personally, I liked the slower healing of SR3 for my particular style of game. We kept general track of time, and if they got a job offer before X time had passed, they had to consider whether they wanted to take it even though they might not be in peak form.
In our current game, we have 3 rotating GMs. I've only run SR4 as one-shots or very short arcs at a time so far, so I've agreed to try the healing rules as given in SR4 before we make up our mind, but yeah, they're silly quick IMO.
Personally, I liked the slower healing of SR3 for my particular style of game. We kept general track of time, and if they got a job offer before X time had passed, they had to consider whether they wanted to take it even though they might not be in peak form.
In our current game, we have 3 rotating GMs. I've only run SR4 as one-shots or very short arcs at a time so far, so I've agreed to try the healing rules as given in SR4 before we make up our mind, but yeah, they're silly quick IMO.
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Sep 8 2009, 05:21 PM)
Stop me if wrong here but rating six is the new eight from SR3 right? So with the best general med kit in the world your pretty good at patching someone up? The only thing I would change here is the time involved. 9 seconds is not enogh time to deploy the cocktail of nanites and pain killers, let alone tissue bonders and coagulants.
I dont have a problem with the symbolic getting someone up and running and for book keeping leaving it there, with the previso their going be hurting for a while. But 9 seconds without wires? Perhapes not.
I dont have a problem with the symbolic getting someone up and running and for book keeping leaving it there, with the previso their going be hurting for a while. But 9 seconds without wires? Perhapes not.
I remember reading that the old 6 is now a 4 in SR4. You can do the math from there.
How to reign them in? Gaes: Drunk.
Now, suggest the rest of the group have Intolerance to Drunks as free points.
Done.
Now, suggest the rest of the group have Intolerance to Drunks as free points.
Done.
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