A lot of the time, I hear people complain about how Mages (and Mystic Adepts) are broken, how they're OverPowered, and how nobody has a chance against them. I have seen all kinds of hinkey and devastating home rules to reign in their power and a lot of them wind up, fankly, gimping them to the point of pointlessness.

On the flip side, I have also seen many ideas for ways to ABUSE Mages in fashions I don't believe the original authors intended or the system was designed for.

So, after a little thought, I came to a shockingly simple (to me) sollution to the problem:

Do not allow Mages to heal Drain in ANY fashion except regular rest and healing.

You can ignore the EFFECTS with a stim patch or damage compensators or whatever, but no amount of technological First Aid will help until you have the required down-time. That's hours for Stun and days for Physical. If Mages can't turn to the person with a med-kit next to them after every scuffle involving dice rolls and say "hit me!", I think they will be a LOT more circumspect in how they sling mojo, and it will severely discourage overcasting. No actual "mechanics" need to change, nobody needs to Nerf^TM a spell. Just every point of un-resisted drain will be with them for the duration.

I'd love to hear any thoughts, though I'd prefer this not turn into another flame thread.

(As an aside, at our table, we treat First Aid as a "Stim Patch" for physical damage - it allows you to ignore the "effects" and go on, but the damage will still require real rest and healing afterwards, otherwise, why have a hospital? Just hire a Healing Physical Adept with a Rtg 6+ Medkit, and virtually any amount of damage can vanish *snap* just like that.)

Again I point out, isn't this the way it worked in SR2 for damage from drain? Perhaps we houseruled it that way back then as well. I agree with this particular rule whole-heartedly.

That's pretty much how I handle it. My opinion is that drain is not bruising or bleeding you can "fix" with first aid, but simply tiring yourself out (if it's stun) or internal hemmoraging you can't fix without invasive surgery or nanotech.

Frankly, if someone wants to burn charges from their savior medkit to heal drain, I'm inclined to let them, because that shit be expensive.

I just make being a Mage more expensive in terms of Build Points or karma

Sems to do the trick >shrug<

I tend to have people avoiding serious amounts of pain effect, but still carrying on doing things, take extra damage.

That is not a bad suggestion Karenshara, though I think Control Thoughts still needs to be nerfed (and still is at my table). That nerf did seem to be instrumental in driving away the groups only mage (though he hasn't explicitly mentioned that was why he stopped playing), but he has been replaced by 2 new players who have decided to play mages.

I have no problem with this, being a mage PC. But... My biggest problem with the game system is that to balance the Mage "class" you have to have downtime instead of a damage resistance check like you have with guns. Ranged combat is Opposed Test, then Damage Resistance test; Magic is just Opposed Test (for direct combat spells). This is the heart of the imbalance, with Drain being a mechanic to discourage casting ManaBolt at Force 7 all day long (statistically you will get drain, eventually). By comparison, PC's with guns deal with clips / belts and to date I've never seen a gunslinger run out of ammo, combat is over too fast for that to happen.
The biggest thing to "hose" a mage is to use Vision modifiers, since they can't just use their cyber eyes to compensate and their dice pool is typically smaller than a gunslinger's. As soon as the enemy mage gets shot though, the fight is over.
Initiate Passes is also a HUGE problem, if you have less than 3 passes you might as well not even play, but that's another story.
-Surge

The way I would define it (for Stun Drain) is that your energy reserves, or perhaps your "channel" for mana have been damaged or ... think of it like strain-related swelling to a muscle. This reduces your ability to channel mana.

For Physical Drain I see it as damage to your actual aura, a deeper more significant wound that manifests as genuine damage; Fixing the damage will not fix the wound that caused it (astrally speaking). I liken that to The Matrix - "your [aura] makes it real".

Ok, so maybe it's a stretch, but it certainly works to keep Mages honest. You don't see people at our table over-casting summoning or high-power of high-drain spells. I'm overcasting low-drain spells at F4 where I only need to dodge 2 points of Physical Drain that my 10 dice are more than able to handle it. For anything requiring more hits, I'm seriously averse to over-casting; resting for an hour or so is ok sitting in the back of the van, but days of bedrest suck.

I have thought of both of these changes to the rules before. I think "First Aid" is quite cheesy, frankly, that it "heals" damage much like stepping on a Medkit in an FPS. It's a quick and relatively painless fix to change First Aid into a test with a Threshold equal to the person's current Wound Modifier. Every hit allows the person to ignore 1 point of Modifiers. If the person is damaged again, all First Aid "effects" cease and they are not subject to their full Wound modifier.


I just wanted to point out that cyber eyes if they have been paid for with Essence, can be used to compensate for Vision modifiers and still cast spells.

Yes, but how many players do that? I didn't, I figured there was more to lose from 1 essence than gained by cyber eyes, but maybe my math was wrong. Most of the time I'm Astrally Perceiving anyway....

My poorly worded point was, Drain is the "Damage Resistance test" for spellcasting, and I'd rather have a true damage resistance test by the victim than Drain test by the caster (which is divided by 2, and the source of the unfairness). Not to mention entirely different rules for Direct and Indirect spells, Manipulations (all of them are OP), and so on. I don't support getting rid of Drain, I'm just saying there could be a better way.

I like this thread.
-Surge

Let me take this by parts, because some of these are old arguments.

Let's be honest: this is a SUBJECTIVE evaluation. You feel it's imbalanced because it is different. But let's look at it from the other side: when being SHOT AT, Mages tend to be disadvantaged because they lack the additional resistances to BULLETS an Augmented character has. Essentially, as opposed to looking at how Direct Damage spells are unbalanced and different from normal combat, perhaps it should be seen as a way to balance Augmented characters and physical combat?

As another idea, how about a -1 DP penalty per point (or fractional point) of lost ESSence to the Mage's Spellcasting roll? I seem to remember this being a mechanic in previous editions. It's not what you are looking for, but it DOES hinder the Mage somewhat in terms of final output of damage through Direct Damage spells.


Well, I can think of Astrally Perceiving and taking the penalty to cast there, and if the Mage gets a single Net Hit, the spell gets through. But that isn't the point. Mages DO tend to have smaller dice pools and they are HARD capped at extra damage = Force of the spell, which a gun or a knife is NOT, even if they spend Edge. No offense, Omae, but this part doesn't hold any water with me.


Here we go again (not at you in particular Geek the Mage First): why? How is it that at character generation or with less than 50 Karma earned EVERY person at the table HAS to have 3 IP or they're in deep chither? I keep making the argument that people are too focused on "breaking" the system, and that players who do that compel the GM to respond entirely in kind to the point that situations like you're describing become the norm. Of the default templates (which admittedly are FAR from ideal) in either of the BBBs for 4th Ed, only two individuals have a total of three passes: the Street Samura and the Gunslinger Adept, both of who are uncompromisingly designed for main-line combat. A Mage can achieve this with a F3 spell, but it has a relatively high Drain code and it must be maintained. It's a symptom, in my opinion (and again, this isn't directed at you personally in any way Geek the Mage First), of the way many people approach the game in the first place: "if I can't nuke it on the first pass and walk away clean, I'm not playing!" It's SUPPOSED to be hard for the characters (and the players) and the mechanics actively DISCOURAGE comabt as a first option much of the time. Who needs extra IP if your Decker can convince the security system (and the guards) that you really belong in the first place? Of if the Face can get you past the same guards by TALKING like they have 5 IP worth of speech? It factors into IP, into people going for massive over-kill DP, skill ratings that are inconsistent with the Universe As Written (UAW), and stats that make even early characters walking demi-gods. We play with strict caps on hits and dice pools, and the GM can throw fairly mundane opposition at us and it's still a challenge; He doesn't need to pull a rabbit (or a CyberZombie) out of his hat to give us a hard time. And nobody feels "under-powered" at our table, be they mundane, Awakened or augmented to the gills.

I would love to sit at your table. At mine, we alternate between being completely useless to one-shot killing opponents. My arguments are old and tired because we FAIL at Shadowrun and have always re-rolled characters for each run we do because they either die or fail or derail or the players hate that their character doesn't do as much damage as the rest of the team. Our group is very inexperienced despite playing for 10 years over 3 editions, and the result is the same no matter which of the 5 GM's sits behind the screen.

At least we laugh our hoops off every time we play.
-Surge

It a viable method. Down side is that magiacains sudedenly become lightweights in prolonges series of conflicts, with considerably longer turn around in coming back to fighting fitness.

I applaud your reasoning and the ethos of the objective. It just one more approach in the toolbox. Personaly I dont like tweaking a rule set until am convinced it is unbalanced, and extremes are not good case examples. So yes reasonal players with a reasonable ref play nice and everyone has fun in a challenging game.

Personally I control the pace of the game in my SR3 game, my magicain PC was design to be a magical power house but physically frail, so laughs in the face of drain, giggles at the stress of summoning and wimpers as soon as breathed on too hard. She is frightening but very human in her vulnerabilities. Every single character has has nearly died and been stuck back together, even if it is with sticky back plastic and duct tape. they have to work as a team to harness one another strengths and cover one another weaknesses.

I like the reasonable fast turn around of magical healing (drain with standing) and biotech, both from a game perspective and from a story/psycological perspective. It enables because the threat of demise and pain of wounds is percevied and very real. When you lose the emotional weight of these effects then rapid healing disables the roleplaying into cancellation of consequences.

Different strokes for different folks, circumstances, times, colours of the moon, if you had coffee, your mothers maiden name etc

Actually, what it REALLY does is encourages Mages to reach for the low-drain spells first... I mean, most heavy-duty mages are rolling about twelve dice one way or another eventually for Drain, and the first two points of Stun Drain have no "crunchy" effects at all other than fluff "discomfort" (lots of descriptions for Mages and TMs having that "pain between their eyes"). So as long as the spell on AVERAGE doesn't do more than DV4, it's a better choice than DV5+ spells. Let's say you have just 9 dice for Drain Resistance; there are PLENTY of useful spells under DV3 or thereabouts.

Keep in mind that, on the whole, higher Drain spells are less "subtle" and much "flashier". It also encourages Mages to take the "limited" forms of the spells requiring a talisman/re-usable fetish to cast. Right now, most Mages wouldn't do such a thing because healing Drain is just too easy. But those extra couple dice can let you toss a much bigger spell without Drain if you CAN'T heal it.

I don't mind the "fast" turn-around from healing generally, especially with nano-tech help; That being said, I don't like the "FPS" healing from First-Aid as-written. Now, if you JUST treat that healing like a Physical Stim Patch, you still have relatively fast betwen-adventure turn-around (especially with somebody who takes that - currently largely useless - Medical skill to help). More to the point, the Mage now has a common turn-around with the Sammy who likely took Physical Damage doing what Sammies do best: standing in the front and fighting. It also encourages the Mages to have a more respectable BODy stat... or even consider taking something like rapid healing. It also serves to make the Heal spell more "special" because it's the only way to REALLY heal up near-instantaneously... at the cost of heavy Drain to the Mage. It also makes things like the Adept power Empathinc Healing more useful, because the Adept probably will heal a lot faster than the person they're healing... unless it's that huge Troll Sammy.

I completely acknowledge your point about not necessarily finding it a problem, and for our table it really isn't because none of our Mages (myself and one other presently) OR the TM wants to regularly push the Drain/Fading values high enough to really become an issue, and we don't "ignore the pain, you pussy" to pull off disgusting feats of Magic/Hacking because ALL of us agree the "magic med-kit" to fix that is so much maulk, so we play apropriately and it's not an issue. But I am suggesting a formal "fix" that requires no MECHANICAL changes to the system itself (in terms of how dice roll or are counted or whatever) in order to bring something some people are highly prone to abuse back in line.

Make sense?

But it's not like this is an MMO.

A GM has ultimate authority on the game such abuses take place. It may seem abusive to us on the outside but what if it fits right in with their game? What if this ends up becoming too limiting for others as well?

It's a good house rule, something that may be adopted by many groups. But I've never totally abused spellcasting in that manner even though I've had more Mages than any other archetype.

When it's clearly being abused it's up to the GM to put his foot down. Is that a cop-out? Perhaps, but I seriously don't see the need for a widespread "ruling".

I do agree with Geek the Mage, that the Magic system is in need of an overhaul though. Manipulation spells are just way too good and well, a lot of things like Drain on the whole need looking into.


I had this whole thing about not liking it based on fluff but I'll do away with that with a suggestion instead: LIMIT what can be healed by "emergency" means. Half, rounded up let's be nice, of the total stun damage can be repaired and that's it.

Medicine can cure the rest later on, to aid in natural healing and whatnot.

The damage isn't fully cured, however the full healing amount can remove the modifiers. What I mean is that if you got a Stun of 5 and First Aid heals 4, it only really fixes up 2. However, it's as if you only have a Stun of 1, even though you have a 3.

I'm rambling again.

Good thread.

Why? Or better yet: what specifically? What version was your first introduction to SR? The Magic system has gone through a LOT of revision(s) over 20 years. It's still one of the BEST magic systems I have seen. The problem with "manipulation" spells is that many people don't like how hard they can be to resist at higher levels. But if you've got a Mage running spell defense on your side, they're actually not that hard to resist at all. If your Mage knows their business and you didn't gimp your own WILlpower, you should be able to get by. Also, if you're Augmented, look at Daredrenaline in the Transgenics section. It's +1 die to ALL WILlpower rolls INCLUDING critter powers AND spell resistance! That's not bad. (Ok, so you become an adrenaline junky, but hey, you're a Sammy, right?)

And as to Drain, this is the best Drain system yet, IMHO. Drain is essentially unique to Shadowrun as a system, and it's a far more effective limit than the nonsense we see out of DnD and some other systems. If the Mage is willing to work with low Drain minor spells, they can cast all day long without serious effect. But one top-shelf spell and they can literally kill themselves.

If you make it so they HAVE to rest to "heal" drain (modified only by improved healing qualities and MAYBE Adept powers for a Mystic Adept) then the Mages have to be realistic unless it's vital. I had several times in older campaigns saved the whole team by almost killing myself at a critical moment, and often knocked myself out saving our bacon.

If magic (especially DD and Manipulation spells) are kicking your hoop, get somebody to run spell defense for your group. If nobody wants to play a Mage, get an NPC - there are plenty of those out there, and you can specifically look for one who specializes in defense while you're at it! Heck, maybe they Heal too! And if you think Manipulation is bad, watch out for some of the Illusion spells, and if used right Health is JUST as nasty.

You have to counter like with like. As I said in several other threads: if you don't wear armor, you can't complain about guns being overpowered. Likewise, if you don't have a Mage of your own, you can't complain when the GM tosses mojo (or spirits) at your group.

Well I'm not looking at this as if my characters aren't Awakened, they usually are Magicians.

I wasn't putting down SR4a, it's a great system else I wouldn't be here. My problem with magic, if you can call it that, is the nature of the spells: There's no real customization involved, apart from spell choices and Force, if that. My Stunball will be the same as yours, if we had equal skills. (And Hackers seem to have the same deal.)

But the real complaint is with Manipulation. Yes, an enemy mage adds greatly to a group's defense, but seriously most of the uses of Mental Manipulation spells aren't always in combat. Perhaps it is vastly different in higher levels of play, but I don't buy the armour analogy. Bullets are something everyone can deal with, awakened or not. Not so magic, unless you get some advanced Manatech.


On Drain. It's a system I like. However it's a bit too immediate.

Yes, the one-off spells should be instantaneous. But the sustained spells need a constant, if lower, testing of drain. It should be a steady flow for sustained spells. Lower but tested and applied each pass. Better that than just a -2 on all when sustaining spells. The drain value starts lower than normal but increases the longer its held.

This way even higher level characters can't shrug off drain once their drain stats are higher.

There's also a whole part about Spells being more... "customizable" from the start that I won't blather on about: like Knockout/Stunbolt/Stunball being just one spell, a Stun spell, that the caster can choose to make the range Touch, Direct, Centred (around himself), or Area. With Drain Values being adjusted. Reduces the clutter of spells and can make more room for other spells in the grimoire.

Excuse the ramblingness, I'm running on 3-4 hrs of sleep today.

OK, these are speciffic objections, and I can always debate speciffic objections. *grin*

What kind of customization were you looking for? They're "mana direct" spells, so there's no (exempting the new "pixie dust" nonsense) visible manifestation of the spells, just the observed effect (or lack thereof) on the target(s). From the perspective of game mechanics, there's nothing to separate them, be they Hermetic or Shamanistic or Shinto or Voudoun. What was it you had in mind?


What kind of OUT-of-combat spells are you concerned with? Most of the complaints I hear are combat-related. Can you give me a couple speciffic spells as examples and how you feel they need a re-write? (Look at most of my posts; I'm not afraid to go back and tweak speciffic instances as long as we leave the actual "mechanics" of how the dice are rolled or counted intact.)


OK, now that's an interesting concept, but it would depend on the spell in question I would say. And the "stressful" part is usually MANIPULATING the mana, not maintaining the flow needed to sustain it. Put another way, shaping the initial asatral "matrix" of the spell is what's so tiring, representing the battle of your Will as a Magician against the inherent chaotic nature of mana, forcing it into a patern of her Will. Keeping up the flow of mana to sustain that matrix is simply a matter of concentration. Now, some spells, I would agree with you on possibly needing more, but I would NOT see the codes INCREASE over time.


Why SHOULDN'T they be able to shrug off lower levels of drain more easilly? To go back to the "armor analogy" (because it fits) that's like saying a more-cybered Sammy shouldn't be able to soak/bounce bullets as they improve their physical defenses over time. If they put the Karma into the stats and whatever else, they should get the bump(s). I mean, spending upwards of 20 Karma to get another die on the test? 30+ Karma to get one more point of "free" drain on average? Come on, that's pretty extreme, don't you think, considering that's the equivalent of taking a skill from 0 to 5 outright!


Don't worry, you're not rambling that badly (take a look at one of MY "wall of text" posts when I'm sleep dep'd). But you're back to customization. Hit me, I'm curious what you're actually on about because maybe it's something I haven't thought about; After all, I go back to 1st Ed and I am pretty thoroughly locked "in the box" of the 6^th World's magic paradigm.

edit: doh, double.

I.. uh, wait, hold on.

You mean this wasn't in the rules already? I could have sworn it was, that's the way I've always run it when it's my turn to GM. Well, except for physical drain which requires access to a lodge to heal with magic. That was just a concession.

*sigh* Technically, no, not in 4th Ed. It specifically DISALOWS the use of magic to heal Drain, but leaves out any mention of technological healing, and MedKits are just as good, if not better by RAW than the Heal spell, which to many/most of us doesn't make a lot of sense because otherwise hospital stays wouldn't really exist, you just need a really good MedKit. After all, it only takes one turn per point of damage "healed". That's why I suggested the whole "it's not actually fixing the damage, just letting you ignore it; you have to rest for it to heal fully".

Added effects really. Something that would make the spells stand out as being part of a specific tradition and also should evoke the actual magician's style.

Someone's base stunbolt spell could have a disorienting effect, in addition to the stun modifiers. Another's could have reduced senses (sight). Something to reflect the personality of the caster.

Think of them as a bag of tricks a mage can add to his spells. They can be cast "purely" but with the added effects adding Drain of course.



The Mental Manipulation spells. Control Thoughts for instance. Or even Influence and the like.

Now, there are great combat applications for these spells. But the greatest use of them, to me, has been out of combat. In combat the enemy's mage or magical defender is alert. While you're doing the legwork, scoping the area, or even laying low casting these thoughts on vulnerable metahumanity makes things too easy to get away with.

In these situations there's really nothing stopping a Mage PC. In combat being able to get the rent-a-cops to look the other way or shoot each other in the face for a little drain is too good to pass up.

Yes a Mage can counterspell, but hey they're trying to geek the mage and your team should be too. This of course changes at higher levels with better resistance for the poor corpsec.



Good point.

For only a small amount of sustained spells the drain code should increase. Not for every action pass perhaps, but a retesting of Drain for specific spells should be in order.

It's a better limit than bigger and bigger initial penalties. Oh this spell is powerful, it requires F/2 + 13 but it's sustainable.



Yes the armour fits for that situation .

I didn't mean in general. I meant for the specific spells that I believe are under-Drained. Yes, the investment should pay off for the Mage, but take the example of the retesting of Drain up there. You now have an overall easier time resisting it, an even better investment, but just because you passed it once without taking stun damage doesn't mean you'll pass it again just as easily.

Hey about testing for drain for sustained spells every *Magic* Combat Turns?




For Combat Spells I especially believe that having multiple versions with different ranges makes them unattractive investments. This "graduated effect" shouldn't be applied to those spells that have a different version that's improved; for example, Invisibility and Improved Invisibility should be two different spells still.

Consider a combat spell to be a firearm that has Semi-Auto/Burst Fire/Full Auto Modes. Drain would be Recoil in this regard.

You don't have to buy a gun for each of those modes and switch them out (that is, of course if you want those modes in the first place and several guns actually have them without any modifications--bear with me, it's an example) when you want to fire differently.

The Stun spell would be the same. You 'select' Touch range and cast it with ease. But then next pass you choose to cast Stun again but in an Area effect, so the Drain code increases.

I believe this makes Combat spells more attractive as now they're each distilled into their effects and range itself becomes a matter of choice. It may just be my perception but there are fewer and fewer full Combat Mages out there these days. The drain is high, the cost is high, and the danger is high. This does nothing for the drain or danger, but the cost is lowered.

Yes, this may mean you can have a Touch-ranged Fire spell.

Then there's the add customizations I talked about earlier which would add to the Drain.

One of the worse ideas I've seen so far posted.

Mages have their issues... but generally drain isn't one of them. (outside that illusion spells have a little too much, and the entire manipulation line needs higher drain and should probably be split in two between mental and physical manipulations). Mental manipulations should probably have a lot more rolls for the target to resist with over time as well... and should probably require time to be sustained before they take effect (EG: 1 pass per 2 points of force of the like).


Quite frankly... it only details combat spellcasting as well. What happens when the mage tries to summon a force 4-5 spirit on the fly (magic 6), and gets boned on the drain due to bad luck. It doesn't deal w/ the outliers well. (I'm used to trying to do this because I want at least force 3 optional power in the 0-2 point background counts which are common).


And geek the mage first... makes the same problem that many others do. Firearms fire TWICE as fast... they also use a full dice pool vs. a single attribute. They get an extra damage resistance test though because they DO fire twice per pass w/ no dicepool penalties. (almost all SA guns have 1 point of RC and if not... personalized grip... problem solved). Assuming both cases have say 15 dice vs 5, likely success.

One force 9 stunbolt... drain 3 physical, w/ 9 dice drain pool... reasonable chance of taking 1 physical self-inflicted. (1net hit to up drain and damage to 10 for a likely knockout).

As opposed to 2 shots from a reasonably concealable heavy pistol (normal 5P/AP-1). Both at 15 dice, resisted by 5 dice reaction, then 4 dice reaction and say 9 points armor + body. 30 vs. 5+4 dice... ~7 net hits on attack rolls (+7 damage, no drain increase), total damage 5+5+7==17 (nearly twice the spell), Resist... 9+9-1-1==16 dice. So reduced by ~5. Target has taken 12 damage.

WOW roughly same outcome!!!! Who woulda thought.


Drain not the problem w/ mages.

You're only really going to be able to first aid away 1-3 boxes per encounter. So it really serves as a limit to keep the mage from going all out... and that's on top of any damage the mage actually takes in the fight! Drain right now, basically serves as a governor, it prevents the mage from going too far too fast, but keeps him at a reasonable pace compared to the other characters.

On the other hand, in the case of spirits it does a good job of encouraging responsible behaviour... EG: only summoning a single non-bound spirit an hour or two before the run so that you can rest off the drain effects for say a force 5-6.

Does the street sam take damage from their weapon when they fire? Their limiting mechanic is Recoil which takes away dice from the attack (instead of inflicting backlash damage).

I'm not arguing for the removal of Drain, I just can't wrap my brain around it from a mechanics perspective. I play the game, and I love it, ESPECIALLY the magic system which I agree with OP that it is the best magic system. The OP points out that Stim Patches completely negate the 'balance' of Drain and was looking for a solution. Not using Stim Patches solves the problem and makes players play more conservatively, but I think we can all agree it is being abused.


Was that really necessary? Are you like that in real life? At your game table?

At least you've got the laughs then!

IMO the problem isn't the rules or the game mechanics per say, it's the mentality of the people you game with. Much like you, I've had the benefit of having a steady table for over a decade, but it didn't come without telling fruit cakes and gun bunnies to take a hike. I agree to that once you get into the constant stae of everyone trying to game the system for 3 IP, then everyone is gaming themselves for combat. The GM can't throw you up against a bunch of lowly corp sec guards, he has to try to bang your heads against the wall to show your team that they aren't gods in the flesh. Thus the cycle continues.

At our table, when we play Shadowrun, it pays bigger dividends to be secret and silent and NOT kill as many people as you can. Less a corp loses the less likely they are to come after you* It's not KillmaimdestroyeverythingTM that gets in my path!

There are MMO's for that.

*this isn't always true

Good luck chum

No, I'm just blunt and direct. I gave my reasons for the criticism. And knowing Kerenshara, there'll be a point by point deconstruction and rebuttal.

And recoil is NOT the limiter for gunbunnies... it's really easy to work up enough recoil to handle 2 short bursts per pass. (you're limited by the rules to 1 long burst per pass). I can get to RC5 w/o even using gas vents on suppressed guns. Even with only RC3, that's still ONLY a -2 dice penalty on the second shot... or a reduction of less than 1 point of damage total (if it hits). Recoil really only limits automatic weapons and burst fire.

The example I gave above is 2 SA shots... so you only need 1point RC, which is trivial. Not only that bod3,arm6... that damage is physical not stun.

To reiterate the main point... it's that allowing drain to be first aided really says... that on a per encounter basis, the mage can manage 1-3 points of drain w/o getting himself too beat up. (bigger problem is most people forget all the negative dicepool mods on the first aid check (target magical environment, etc.)!!! Even then, 12 dice is only 3-5 hits on average and first 2 don't count... so again 1-3 healed). Also if a logic tradition mage, normally he IS the medic (so wound penalties as well). And healing that drain, doesn't include combat damage from say... being shot twice in a pass by a security guard.

BladeRunner:
I don't think it's really the passes... it's the setup of the encounters. Generally combats are pretty one sided either in favor of the PC's or the NPC's. And the immediate tactical objective is one of, escape ambush, setup ambush. Or I'm a melee type and they're 150m away... I better pull a pistol/MP/SMG to cover myself while I advance. ESPECIALLY when it's all point-blank room to room... it tends to get over and done with in a real hurry. With good use of negative modifiers and cover, fights can get real drawn out. And generally drawn out is bad (especially if the other side can rely on resources or the fuzz might respond, and the longer something draws out the more likely one side or the other is likely to escape w/ intel on you).

But one of the key items at the core, is that SR is a very fatal system. Combat should be avoided if possible, but when it happens you don't want to fight fair. You want the other side down and dead as fastly as possible. Mages have a way to do it, Gun Adepts/street sams have ways to do it, riggers have ways to do it.

I don't know, personally I like the nerfing of First Aid, however, I'm on the fence whether or not to change Drain, on one hand, I believe that Mages should be trying to use mundane means whenever possible, but on the other, them being afraid to throw arounda ny mojo at all is a bad thing...

Hmm, I'll have to think about it more.

OK, let's step back for a moment and look at the last part of that:

The characters should ALWAYS be striving to minimize Drain because IT HURTS. If it's discomfort (no wounds), pain (stun) or outright injury (physical), Drain is something the people slinging mana are going to want to try to minimize. Use the spell at the minimum force needed to accomplish your goal; If F3 is enough to spoof cameras, why toss F6? Right now (as somebody so eloquently put it) they just "step on the FPS MedKit" and they're as good as new, and that has encouraged the idea that Drain is just an inconvenience, like seeing the health bar drop 20% in an FPS game.

This change essentially shouldn't materially affect people who were playing their mages more like in 1st and 2nd Ed where you were stuck with your Drain; It's mostly to keep people who don't see the discomfort, pain and injury of Drain as significant and just keep tapping their MedKits.

And as to the general "Nerf^TM" of First Aid, I'm surprised how FEW people dislike what I included originally in my OP as a sidebar to illustrate how we look at 'running at my table generally. Like the Hit and DP caps I keep mentioning, if you approach the game like the characters would, you shouldn't run into problems often, and the between-game medically-assisted healing is already fast enough that it shouldn't inconvenience all but the most grievously wounded players, and it makes the Medicine skill far more important. Furthermore, all these things feed mack on themselves; I had a conversation with our youngest player (the reformed Super Munchkin) and he was saying in Shadowrun, knowing that the limits exist and that they apply to the NPCs as well, he's not interested in Munching things up. He told me, in fact, that he rather enjoys a world that he can Role Play and enjoy the story as it unfolds instead of constantly having to scramble to max the Crunchy Bits^TM. Reflecting on how his character plays, I'd say he hit it right on the head. And it's a lot easier to maintain immersion when you expect the NPCs to behave like regular people and the rest of your party isn't pulling off super-human feats of derring-do an a regular basis (or if they are, it's something special about them rather than everybody just having heinous Dice Pools).

I like the suggestions made for First Aid. Treating it like a Stim Patch without the drawbacks is a novel approach. It keeps the target upright and able to ignore modifiers. I'd houserule the houserule to suggest that it heals back 1 point of damage if the target had 2+ points of damage on the track being treated.

First Aid does minimize the wounds in real life after all.

Then you still have to recover from the damage by healing it via magic (if possible) or via time & rest.

Makes everyone tone their actions down a notch or two and make them a bit more selective on how they open up gangbuster style.

As a returning player who is working on getting a game together, would be be kind enough to tell me what those limits are? Thanks!

Actually, I orginially planned to do a simple response, but now I'd just hate to fail to meet your expectations.


Your point about how (relatively) hard FirstAid is up front is well taken, and you're right: it IS often overlooked. But with a really good skill (say 4 - Veteran), specialization (Trauma), high LOGic (say 5[8] which is easy even for Mages), and a top shelf MedKit (Rtg 6), by my math that's 20 dice (the max if you're using the optional cap). Lost two for healing a mage and another three for environment, you're still at 15, which is 3 Net Hits (above your threshold 2 mentioned). Since nearly all spells are [F/2 + or - something], that would mean your average mildly min-maxed mage could throw something DV7 once per encounter and be healed right up after every fight, again on average. DV7 is a BIG spell. THAT's the kind of thing I'm aiming to curtail (unless cinematically vital and appropriate), and though we don't see it at MY table and you might not see it at YOURS, I HAVE seen reference to this kind of thing often enough that I posted the OP to address a simple way to reign it in without changing a single die-rolling or numerical mechanic in the game.


Hey, we actually agree on something.


Here you're being subjective (which in itself isn't bad). The people who created the spells/system set things up so every spell is based on the same base mechanics, and Manipulation spells are Manipulation spells, and Illusion is Illusion, and in both cases the big diferentiator is Physical or Mana, and THAT mechanic is identical for Combat as it is for Illusion. You're talking about subjective based "balance" changes that, frankly, the UAW (Universe As Written) don't really support. In older editions, Drain was a bigger hurdle than in 4th, but I don't want to monkey around with the Crunchy BitsTM, so my simple sollution was to apply a Fluffy mechanic where there was none to begin with and say that you just can't heal Drain in any fashion other than (medically assisted) natural rest and recuperation with the standard extended 1 Hour (for Stun) and 1 Day (for Physical) tests. This, incidentally, is where Adept powers and/or Qualities that affect healing times would become a big bonus.


No, I said Drain of any kind (unless I misunderstand you here) and that includes summoning spirits, which is VERY draining, depending on the force of the spirit. If you wind up with bad luck, that happens. That's why we roll dice for Drain: to cover good AND bad luck, as well as average. We just have to plan for the average and let the exceptions develop the story in exciting and unexpected ways.


This is where we really differ, and specifically WHY I want to make Drain hard to heal quickly; Why are you throwing a F9 Stunbolt? I'm just wondering. How about splitting your dice pool, taking the individually easier to resist spells and counting on the fact that the mundane probably doesn't have good resist rolls? And if you're targeting a Mage, don't use a spell they probably have bonuses to resist (High WILlpower, Counterspelling and possible Mentor Spirit/Specialization bonuses to Combat if they're a security Mage) in the first place? Hit the Mage where it hurts: with bullets from the Sammy's guns since the Mage probably has less Body (and armor) that they do defense against your spells?


I touched on the effects of easy fixes between encounters of 1-3 boxes healed. There are LOTS of spells the Mage can use that are likely to net them 0 Drain damage taken but still influence the outcome of the fight quite effectively. And your point about not over-summoning is well taken - I agree. (Now, why not summon a spirit you're pretty sure won't get you Drain in the first place? You're not calling for the super-F8 spirit-of-I-Win! twice a day just after duck and dawn - before "stepping on the FPS MedKit" - so why not a F4 with an increased likelyhood of extra services owed? Seriously, you're clearly not going for overkill, you're taking a reasonable precaution, so why not go easy unless you suddenly NEED to go higher during the 'run in which case any Drain you take will be fully justifiable?)

Please keep in mind that all I am actually doing is making it harder to clear those one or two points of Drain damage between encounters. Mages should not be pushing so hard that they're picking up that much Drain every fight. You're exactly right: Shadowrun is supposed to be dangerous/lethal, and letting mages overcast with impugnity and just "step on the FPS MedKit" between fights actually DETRACTS from that very sense of danger, as well as the personal sacrifices working high-level magic demands of the caster/summoner.

Kerenshara - I'm actually on the "first aid skill not healing s**t track," along with your rules. Basically, I'm seeing a couple arguments in this thread:

1. Mages are too powerful vs. No they're not (which is a sideline argument to your point).
2. Mages are too powerful vs. 'so are gun bunnies.' (which is fine, and in keeping with the "shadowrun combat ain't no joke" play style, which I enjoy.)
3. Mages are capable of recovering too quickly from drain in between battles and over-incentivized to cast massive spells (which is your big shtick), and
4. First aid skill causes #3 and has some other effects.

I agree with you on 3. I don't care about 1, and I'm fine with 2. I like your "first aid rule," because it evens up the score for both mages and gun bunnies. Basically, the way I see it, getting shot sucks. Any serious injury takes a long time to recover from. Even trivial injuries accountable by stun damage (big black eyes, broken knuckles, the big bruises you get when your body armor catches a bullet, etc.) suck. First aid skill can make them suck less, but the real advantage in first aid lies in the fact that you 1. don't take further injury from bleeding, bone fragments, or infection and 2. are easier to treat by doctors/extended care/etc.

This adds to the debate as well, as it levels the playing field for both mages and 'normal combatants.' Normal combatants have an advantage over Mages by your rules in that they have a quicker recovery time between combats, which I feel creates other perverse incentives. The close combat monster who can take a hit or two before he evens in shouldn't brush himself off and go into the next fight while the mage has to bleed from his nose and sit in the car drinking tea, etc.

I find the first aid rule to be an elegant way to make everyone approach combat with caution and tactics, which makes the combat a more memorable and important experience. I use an armor degradation rule (non formal, but I browbeat players for wearing armor that has already been shot a couple times, and penalize them if they don't satisfy me that they take reasonable precautions). I plan on incorporating your first aid rule, which makes everything nicer.

Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to parse out the arguments, because honestly I had started to lose track a bit.

You're right about the "first-aid rule" evening things out. We just use it because it makes SENSE, but the way you laid out the "spin-off" effects only strengthens that feeling.

And as to in particular making Drain un-healable, that one is intended to... not so much Nerf^TM or humble the Mages as keep them honest and "encourage" them to sling mojo the way their character probably would prefer to, subjectively. And understand, I play a Mystic Adept with a low "MAGic skill split" so I'm overcasting more that I'd like to, but only when it counts.

Minimize the EFFECTS, yes, but in no way is the actual injured tissue mended. This is entirely about the wound modifiers, and I imagine by 2070, Tylenol XP^TM is probably some wicked maulk Reducing swelling, blocking pain, etc and all in just seconds!

Absolutely! They are:

1) the maximum number of Hits (not Net Hits) you may keep on a Skill Check is equal to your [Skill x 2] (or 1 if defaulting). This is essentially similar to the Hit limit in Spellcasting tied to the base Force of the spell as it is cast. This serves to emphasize skill over talent (stats). For this to work EFFECTIVELY you MUST enforce discipline about skill levels and essentially keep them to their DESCRIPTIVE levels (Unskilled, Beginner, Novice, Professional, Veteran, Expert, Elite, Legendary). Using the thresholds in the book, defaulting can only succeed on easy (1) tests. Even Beginners can pull off average (2) tests. Novices can succeed at hard (3) tests on a good roll, but you need to be a professional to expect to succeed at extreme (5+) tests, which is as it should be.

2) the maximum number of dice that may be added as modifiers to the Dice Pool for any Skill Check may not exceed [Skill + Stat]. No matter how favorable the circumstances, without the ability and experience, you just can't take full advantage of that situation. Please note how this especially strips back over-geared people trying to default their way to success with lots of bonuses.

3) the maximum number of dice in a Skill Check Dice Pool may not exceed 20. This keeps things from spiraling completely out of control, power-wise. I went into great detail in another thread not so long ago, but the HIGHEST threshold in the new system ANYWHERE is only 5. With 20 dice you can actually BUY 5 hits (assuming the situation/GM allows it). Statistically, it's a near certainty to max out that roll, so what's the point of more dice? The underlying system really starts to break down when the DPs exceed 20 dice, allowing characters to succeed in super-human feats of legend with boring regularity.

First sorry i'm kind of new and not english fluent.

Couldn't you deal with over powered magic by more activly having the oposition hunting them down based on the astral imprint they leave after casting (if I'm not mistaken more powerful spells leave an astral signiture longer then lower powered ones) and the signitures could be traced back to the mages hide out.

Personaly I would think that a corp squad knocking on your door because you left an astral signiture would discorage me from tossing out the bigger spells with out a very good reason.

It's a nice idea, Sintis, and believe me, that's what the Corps would really like. But unfortunately for them (fortunately for us seedy 'runner types) that's not how it works. At best they can get a mage to identify the signature of the caster so they know who to blame, but they face several obstacles.

First, once the Mage stops sustaining a spell, the "link" that is tracable is severed. All you have is the "afterimage" of the spell, like the dots in your eyes after a picture flash.

Second, while higher level spells fade more slowly, there are a couple of things a Mage can do to make things harder for the corporate Mage:

1) the quality Astral Chameleon reduces the duration of those images by half in addition to penalizing the scanning Mage's roll.

2) there is an Initiate metamagic power that let a mage decrease the duration of the spell's signature, and another that allows them to alter the appearance of the signature while it lasts to look like somebody else's if the scanning Mage can't penetrate the deception.

Together, it means the Corp can sometimes identify if a particular Mage has hit them before (assuming the scanning Mage had seen that particular signature before), but that's not the same as saying they automatically know who that Mage is. Furthermore, when being directly scanned, one of those mentioned Initiate metamagic powers allows the Mage to alter their visible signature, either choosing to appear mundane, stringer, weaker or entirely like somebody else.

Magic, despite six decades of research, is still very much an "art" and consequently nabbing Mages based on their trace astral signatures is nowhere near as easy as lifting their fingerprints or DNA from the scene... which CAN be used to try to figure out exactly who the Mage is.

Thank you very, very much, Kerenshara!

*sigh*

Okay, lets go over this again. What about the non-self inflicted damage. What you mean nobody's trying to kill the mage?! How's that supposed to get patched up on top of all the self-inflicted damage.

Why bother with medkits at all... you turn them into glorified stimpatches, for all intents and purposes (actually inferior stim patches; stimpatch doesn't 'end' if more damage is taken).

By that problem, everybody else, gets first-aid... plus heal spell (potentially hurting mage more, some of my worst drains have come from trying to heal).
But the mage can't use the first aid on his drain, and heal doesn't work on drain. So any mundane damage the mage takes is now harder to heal, plus the mage is guaranteed to have to deal w/ cumulative self-inflicted damage. All because by your own admission... to "shackle" when he's already hobbled by his own mechanics.


If you want to go with prior editions... lets not forget this old goldy. Patching up a mage involved a risk of PERMANENT NONRECOVERABLE magic loss. You want to go there as well?! Stimpatches also involved a similar risk. I'm glad to see that one gone.


Lets use a common NON-COMBAT spell... physical illusion... drain code +1. We NEED to use force 5 (or higher if background count)... to beat OR5 on a drone. We also need 5 hits on the spellcasting roll! (so a high chance we'll have to try and recast it). Drain code +1. Force5... drain == *3* (4 if in a background count, and we'd need force 6 w/ 6 hits if cast outside the background count!).



My problem here, is quite simple... you're basically giving ANY combat mage the finger. Arbitrarily changing the rules for recovering from drain.For some very weak reasons. (mage is hard pressed to do 10s w/ a single spell... while the gun adept is easily pumping out 13 physical (or equivalent stun w/ heavier armor) in the above example). Neither one is a twinked out pool, but twinking out the pool helps the gunbunny more (net hits add to damage w/o hosing drain).


I see your point for changing all medkits... but I don't really agree with it.

I also strongly disagree w/ your example, 5 logic, 4skill, (spec offsets awakened), 6 medkit == 15 dice... now take in for bad environment... we're dealing w/ 12-15 typical. I'm not saying it can't go higher, especially for a medadept. But those are special cases, and shouldn't be taken as typical.

b
My issue is as follows. Mundane damage infliction is FAR MORE EFFECTIVE (barring ItNW, then again magic doens't mix w/ drones well either) that I find it insulting when people keep coming out with... but it's a force 9 spell... yeah it's a force 9 spell with a NEGATIVE DRAIN MODIFIER (only reason it's even attemptable).
X can kill things easily w/ next to no chance of self-inflicted wounds. Y can kill things easily but must suffer some self-inflicted damage to do it. Lets nerf Y!!! Why, because I don't like the concept of a mage pushing himself to the limits when things matter. (for the record I HAVE been in circumstances where a force 9 casting, edged to 9 hits HAS NOT BEEN ENOUGH TO OVERCOME COUNTERSPELLING! Literally going nuclear on that astral plane stunball on the ambush clusterf*ck took out 2/3rds of the spirits and saved from a TPK... I was a wreck afterwards too!).


Why not multicast... it multiplies the effects of counterspelling! Drain becomes far more problematic as well w/ even a 1 point background count (common).

Now I've explained the dice splitting mechanic in the past to others. Taking a typical mage, 5 mag (BGC, starting, etc.), 5 skill. +2 bonus dice (mentor or spec), 10 dice... split into two pools of 5. Now apply the visibility penalty TWICE, apply background count TWICE, add the positive mod twice... Now rememver the target resists TWICE w/ FULL WILLPOWER + COUNTERSPELLING (not like shooting where reaction is dropped by 1 for each additional). In the presence of ANY counterspelling, you're significantly reducing your odds. (multicasting makes either a bound spirit service or power focus mandatory investments, neither which is anywhere close to the miniscule cost of bullets).


I put forward the notion, that in any serious combat the mage WILL suffer 1-3 points of self-inflicted drain. Most of the time, yes he'll cast low force stuff to pick things off... help with whatever. But you're more or less saying in a run which could encompass 5 encounters... you can't take any drain at all. (because well first aid is gone, and worse, you're getting shot at AND suffering self-inflicted wounds). Also if he's taking 1-3, and only getting 1-3 healed... then odds state that he's getting 0-2 cumulative each time, which he'll have to naturally heal.


At best I see your suggestion as a triumph of fluff over substance, and a major core change. Too many complications, and it completely screws mages even more. (in SR4 mages are already weaker than they ever were in prior editions.) You call my one area subjective, and i agree... but your assertion that a mage and the nature of the damage suffered is no less subjective and arbitrary.

If you really want grittier healing, I'd say increase the amount of time it takes. How many teams are going to have say 15 minutes to first aid off 15 boxes of damage off 5 team members. (plus more time for magical heals).

Falconer, in response to the immediate above post, rather than the usual point-by-point format, which would break the slightly primitive limits of the system here, I just lumped it all together below.

Overcoming your objection to not being able to heal non-Drain damage to the Mage is simple: track it separately on the same track like you do fatigue damage.

I wasn’t the one who suggested making it end, and if you remove that stipulation, I think you’re overreacting just a tad.

Mages can still get First Aid, just not on the damage caused by Drain. And I did a search and couldn’t find a single instance of the word “shackle� in the thread before you used it. Drain doesn’t “shackle� Mages, it limits them. Not the same thing at all.
You’re the one suggesting a full roll-back on losing magic, not me. I think that there is a very happy medium in between the old and the current, and that’s precisely what I was suggesting.

You’re seriously on about background counts. They aren’t the TYPICAL state of affairs everywhere you go. If they are that bad, take the metamagic cleansing feat and be done with it. Deal with everything at a baseline, and if you’re really in a high background count, it’s put there intentionally to make it that much harder on the Mages. The reason they upped the ORT for drones and similar to 5+ was that it’s supposed to be nigh-impossible for anything but a world-class top-of-the-form Magician to pull that off. Consequently that part of your argument leaves me totally unmoved. Now, if it was that hard to get over the next lower ORT, for say a camera at Hard (3), then I would say you were absolutely right. But saying you think it’s unfair that you should face the possibility of taking damage and have to seriously stretch trying to beat a Extreme (5+) threshold is silly; It’s SUPPOSED TO BE THAT HARD.
I PLAY a “Combat Mage�. The gun Adept is pumping out 13P in some pretty unusual circumstances. The choice of the word “arbitrary� is very subjective, and I can see you think my reasons are weak. And since you bring up “twinking the pool� remember that I’m also a huge proponent of capping things in that regard, meaning you can’t expect to get 7 Hits on average, ever, without using edge; you can get at most 6 2/3 Hits on average. I’m not proposing making any changes to the Drain mechanics themselves, just the recovery. And if your table is structured so that it’s expected and virtually mandatory that the “Combat Mage� turn to the medic (or, if you prefer, “Magician, heal thyself�) after every encounter, I think there’s probably something amiss, but it’s your table. Just remind me I don’t want to be playing there. And to save you the time, I’ll just go ahead and call MYSELF a wimp who should go back to other kiddy games.
The medkit change has more to do with the way it relates to surgery, if nothing else. Usually, characters are going to heal fast enough between ‘runs that it’s immaterial if the damage is “really� healed by the MedKit or not. But if MedKits are really fixing things permanently, there shouldn’t be a hospital stay for anything under 7 boxes of damage, which is a Heavy Pistol shot to the torso. THAT’s what was my main impetus, but the timeline had a lot to do with the final decision, because the result was literally IDENTICAL to the magical spell Heal in terms of how quickly it rendered wounds whole, and that just totally blew any kind of reasonable suspension of disbelief out the lock for me… and apparently a lot of other people on this board given how people are reacting to what I originally included as a sidebar commentary to keep things in perspective about out table.

You’re misquoting me on the medic example, because I was including another 3 points of LOGic from Cerebral Boosters, and I included “awakened� in the negative modifiers when I got to my numbers as well as environment. And nobody is going to go higher at my table because we use the DP 20 cap.

Now, you’re arguing with the wrong person entirely with regards to the comparative “lethality� of magic to mundane, because on that score I am all with you. I think guns in highly skilled hands are potentially a lot more deadly. I see Mages tossing spells to soften the opposition so the Sammy can finish them, but more often I see them neutralizing the opposition in other ways. And if you saved a TPK and wrecked yourself doing it, bravo! So have I and so has my GM in other games; But there’s nothing to congratulate if you just “step on the FPS MedKit� and go back to (more or less) fully functional. Sacrifice is what makes things like that memorable and special. If you regard the pain and suffering a momentary inconvenience, why shouldn’t your party members (and their players) regard you in exactly the same way? THAT is what I see having been lost/damaged in the current edition of the game, because healing Drain is so easy by RAW.
And I wasn’t suggesting multi-casting against magical defense. I was suggesting it against a normal mundane. If there’s a mage covering the target, you and your party have other priorities, don’t you? With active magical defense, you’re going to wind up having a LOT of your spells outright negated no matter WHAT you do, because Force only increases the number of Hits you can keep, it doesn’t improve the native DP you’re using to generate them. How were you planning to generate 9 Hits with a 20 DP? Oh, I keep forgetting, not everybody thinks that cap’s a good idea.

I put forward the notion that in any CLIMACTIC combat, the Magician will likely suffer 1-3 points of self-inflicted Drain. From everything you have EVER described in a post, you make clear to me that you’re playing at a VERY high power table, regardless of how “low level� it may pretend to be. You routinely encounter high aspected background counts, high-MAGic enemy mages at every turn, high Force spirits in multiples, simple guards with high WILlpower scores and virtual fleets of drones that for some reason your Combat Mage is directly responsible for dealing with. That’s not “normal� combat by any stretch, even (especially?) compared to the novels and canon vignettes in the 4^th Edition material.

Though I contend it IS a major “core change� because it’s quite limiting but I am not changing any of the numerical MECHANICS, which tend to be tightly inter-related, where you and I differ diametrically is summarized by the sentence “I see your suggestion as a triumph of fluff over substance�; It is MY belief that “fluff� IS substance, the rest is just Crunchy BitsTM. It is not in any way “complicated� and while it prevents Mages from riding roughshod over encounters, you seem under the impression that Mages are already “screwed� even in the base rules. As to the “nature of the damage suffered� actually isn’t “subjective� because it’s fairly well supported in the “fluff� you disregard so casually. Consequently my choice to address the issue is not by definition “arbitrary� though the term “subjective� can be utilized from within the correct observational context.

Now, increasing the base times for healing with First Aid has some interesting possible consequences and could serve to accomplish the same goal I have for limiting Mages between individual fight scenes (notice that the other reason I dislike your characterization of “normal� combat is that having multiple fights like that in rapid sequence seems … higher power than most of us typically talk about), but it still does NOTHING to address the relative usefulness of Medicine skill or hospitalization when within nine minutes of surgery, the highly trained and extremely lavishly compensated MedAdept will heal nine of the ten boxes of Physical Damage a normal person can take, and if they were completely at Death’s own doorstep with 12 boxes of damage before hand, they are down to a mere 3 boxes afterwards! (Typical being BODy 3, by definition the stat level for 2/3 of the population.)

*sigh*...

Yes, Lets...

Your example of the Illusion spell is wrong... you ARE NOT AFFECTING the drone with your spell... you are creating something that the drone perceives... as such, it only needs to beat an OR of 3, NOT 5+...

Just a little point, but an important one...You do not need to beat OR 5+ for Drones when you are NOT affecting the Drone directly...

Rant Over...

Please return to your previous discussions...

Keep the Faith

As this is primary a SR4 thread my previous stipulations are perhapes imprecise, as am looking through a SR3 filter on wether Id use this and the staging system if very different.

My intent was to highlight that for most the dual wammy of first aid followed by magic healing really makes for a stronger team and higher survival rate. Both from combat effectiveness as well as the basic medtech saving lives.

As I have no vested interest in either view I can see this becomes a matter of playstyle again. Both of which Id be happy to do. A more prolonged heavy game will stretch the mage magicain more than the RAW rules interpretation. And with this slight shift of focus and playstyle and the boundies are shifted, players adapt and the world now means the team aim for less combat in comparison and to minimise drain via ingame choices.

As in SR3 you cannot heal stun with biotech and I like the magic loss rules due the massive power of a full mage, I am both antiquated and well placed to see this essentialy being a proposal of the same guideline with first aid.

Kerenshara propsal builds in more healing time and for her this is more realistic to the boundries for a magicains magical ability base on quentisental energy and that first aid does not heal just reduces trauma.

As the health track is a symbolic example of wellbeing it rather depends how you intrept this symbol.

As first aid is making you better, it symbolicly increases your damaged track. Whether tempory or perment for what ever reason, becomes a matter of taste like so much else in life depending on how you like to play. Do you want more down time, consequence and maths or more action and strealined but less realistic play?

Personally I might impliment this ruling if I was to SR4 and wish a specific feel for my players. Or not, depending on what I wanted to make them think and so feel.

When talking about balance, I like to think of scenario balance, rather than balance between members in a party. For example, if a party was composed entirely of mages, then the scenario would need to be designed specifically for that group. However, if you take a pre-written scenario that assumes a specific party composition, then the GM can run into problems with keeping the game challenging. Thus, I all ways suggest looking at scenario design, rather than penalizing characters.

Kerenshara, here we are with this "average" BS again. Is there any area of the system or the game world you won't argue should be subjected to your personal notion of the 6th World?

You are always going on about "appropriate" actions for characters. The problem is your version of "appropriate" is really just an arbitrary interpretation of the game world. It limits the diversity of characters. You continue to ignore the reality of people applying effort and logic in order to justify your slavish devotion to the "norm." I see a couple examples of this premise in this thread.

1: Combat should be avoided in SR, because it's deadly. People shouldn't try for 3 IP's because it isn't "standard."

Frankly this is a load of drek. Combat is deadly, yes. Runners try to avoid it, but they end up in it all the damn time. So, "average" Runners aren't supposed to invest in making themselves faster just because your interpretation of fluff says so? I'd say Runners would do everything in their power to survive. They want to be faster than the average corp security because they need to down them quickly and GTFO before the HTR team shows. You are always arguing for some arbitrary limitation based on the idea that people don't try. Yeah, smart Runners will try to avoid combat. Preparing properly for combat doesn't mean they are "playing an MMO." That is just plain faulty logic. If anything, the deadly and serious nature of combat in SR will lead them to seek every advantage and pray they never have to use them.

I also think this "combat bad, sneaky pretty" mentality ignores a large portion of the game material. There is an entire book devoted to pretty toys, most of which are weapons. Lots of the fluff, at least in 4A, involves lots of people dying from lots of combat. There are drones with MG's, Mages who throw fireballs, Trolls with bows that go through light vehicle armor, reams upon reams of guns (and I note you spend a lot of effort working on those charts, K), semi-auto grenade launchers, and Adepts with flaming fists. I don't think people play this game to read about that stuff, spend time developing characters with it, and never use it. Are you telling me there has never been a run where Mr J just straight up wants them to take out a gang, or just cause some violence? I call bull drek. I'm know SR encourages an infiltrator mentality, and it isn't hack 'n slash, but can we please lay off the "combat...ewwww" stuff? The game supports it, the fluff is filled with it, these boards are filled with discussions about it, and there are far more guns in SR4A than there are weapons in DnD 3.5.

2: "Normal" Mages wouldn't/shouldn't cast large spells because it hurts.

Are you serious? I suppose professional athletes don't push themselves during games because it hurts, too? And soldiers obviously don't exert themselves in the field either? If I'm a Mage and I'm about to break into a corp facility with God knows what kind of security, you bet your ass I'm summoning a large spirit, headache be damned. If I'm fighting a corp security patrol and I know they need to go down fast or I'm getting overwhelmed by reinforcements I'm sure as hell throwing the largest stunbolt I can. If I'm playing the Sam and the Mage doesn't call up a spirit before we go in on account of a headache I'd kick his ass off my team. I'm getting between him and bullets; he can deal with a headache.

Now that I've addressed that, for the OP.

I agree with Falconer, for the following reasons:

If FA kits are just patches, why have FA kits?
Mages have to resist drain to use their 'class" abilities, nobody else does.
I just can't see characters having the time to bandaid everyone up everytime they get a boo boo. I mean, they can, but that can easily get them in trouble during a run.
The "FPS medkit" analogy doesn't work because the characters don't just run over the kit. They have to take time to use it.

Overall, I don't think it's a fix because I don't see the need for one. If an individual group has problems with the hurt/heal cycle, I think the easiest solution is to apply believable consequences. If you just got into a fight with a gang on their turf, are you really doing to stop in the middle of the alley, whip out your FA kit and patch up? Sure, if you want to risk getting ambushed by a bigger, P.O'ed contingent of the gang that is ready for you.

Every game system I've ever seen abstracts damage, physical and otherwise, to some extent. Generally the idea is to allow characters to get hurt and be able to recover to enjoy the story. I find the quirks in the SR damage system nor more intolerable than any other system. It's a game. It is intended to simulate a believable world while still being fun. Personally the only thing that irks me is that Medicine and First Aid are two different skills. But, SR seems to like lots of skills.

If individual groups want to use it for their tables, great. I don't think it's a "necessary" alteration, though. Yes, I'm aware it's not really an alteration, but an interpretation of existing material. Sorry if I rambled a bit there, but I'm bored at work.

The below is in response to he abovecited comment by Totentanz, and since it is almost entirely directed towards them (and is long, even for me), I am hiding it under this

[ Spoiler ]

1: Well Totentanz, since you’ve decided to address yourself to me directly in both tone and content, I’ll restrict myself similarly. The first problem is you’ve either misunderstood what I’ve said or chosen to intentionally ignore and/or twist it. To be clear:


A wise runner will seek to avoid combat WHEN POSSIBLE because it is deadly and expensive; Ammunition and repairs aren’t free, and anything that is expended (including MedKits) or damaged must be replaced or repaired. And nowhere have I EVER said people shouldn’t TRY for 3 Initiative Passes for ANY REASON. If you go back and look at the post I was responding to the poster stated that they felt anybody who lacked at least 3 IPs was essentially useless and not worth playing. My reply was that it must be an unusual table where everybody, guards included, needs 3 IPs to be considered viable in combat.


To repeat, I never said ‘runners shouldn’t invest in making themselves faster; I said it seemed unusual that the power level was such that two additional Initiative Passes would be a minimum in order to be useful. The “average� corp security guard isn’t augmented for speed, and their INItiative score is relatively low; Starting characters with a high base INItiative score will likely be “faster� even if they lack any enhancements to grant additional IPs. Even if only the Sammy has an additional IP or two, usually that first layer of guards is down in less than ten seconds flat. I guess you’re saying that three or even six extra seconds saved flattening the first-tier guards is going to make a difference dodging the HTR Team.

I’m curious where you seem to believe I’m arguing for a limitation on the characters other than those listed in the core rules? The one I proposed in the OP for this thread is the first real “limit� I’ve actually proposed. The other “limits� I champion are equal across all boundaries, PC and NPC alike. The only place you could reasonably argue that I am suggesting “arbitrary limits� is in the assignment of skill levels, and there all I’ve done is gone by what the game’s writers have put in bold, highlighted text; They even went so far as to give us an ENTIRE PAGE dedicated to clarifying what the various levels of skill mean. I don’t know if you are one of the several people who have openly said “I think that page is drek, so I ignore it!� but I certainly don’t.


Where did I say (and I’d like a proper cite, please) that “preparing properly for combatâ€? equates to “playing an MMOâ€?? Unless I’m mistaken, in times past I have harped repeatedly on P⁶ (Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poop Performance). Of course characters should seek every advantage possible in combat. But this is where you seem to fail to grok what I am saying: PLAYERS should try to keep their characters to some kind of appropriate frame relative to their description ��" in particular in reference to skill levels. It is not realistic (Oops, I know I offended a bunch of people using that word) to expect to see every member of a ‘runner team with 6’s in every possible combat-related skill, especially when everybody but the Sammy (or Combat Adept) usually have much more critical places to be putting their Karma. I have never - ever - advocated for a hard limit based on character type or party role beyond that of some Role Play and a dose of common sense BASED ON THE STATED VALUES OF THE WRITERS. Then again, it wouldn’t be the first time on this board I was told that the intent of the Developers didn’t matter, or that the Fluff was irrelevant.

Now, your comment “There is an entire book devoted to pretty toys, most of which are weapons� tells me the most important thing I need to know; You frighteningly remind me of a number of late 1940’s Air Force generals who felt that since we had the Bomb, we should use it. As you yourself said correctly, even when you try to avoid it, combat happens. And wise ‘runners will seek to be prepared for that eventuality. But your intense focus on the combat portion of the game and the universe serves as its own form of discrimination against characters who seek to obtain the objectives of the ‘run without resorting to any form of violence, lethal or otherwise. The oldest veteran ‘runners, if you read their interjections in the fluff parts of the books, repeatedly harp on the fact that the best ‘run is one where you’re gone before anybody knows you were there to do something in the first place. These are the ‘runners that have survived to get to the top of their profession. But I don’t guess their suggestions should carry any weight, because “we’ve got 30 rounds in the clip, and by Zeus, we’re gonna use ‘em!�


I like how you decided to bring up my attempts to bring a bit more consistency and flavor to the firearms in the game. I carry several, and I hope to not have to use them every time I strap them on. If it comes to it, I want to make sure I have the right tool for the job… not necessarily the biggest. We read about the offensive stuff, make characters to use it, and so we should get to use it. That sounds like a pretty good paraphrase of your statement. Of course Johnson sometimes wants outright violence, but Johnson also hires teams based on what they are able to do. Big dollar jobs are seldom simple smash and grabs or “facial ballistics� unless you’re counting assassination of a hard target, but there, frontal assault usually won’t work of you wouldn’t be getting hired for the hit. And, to the point of “combat...ewwww�, I think you mis-heard me; What I believe I said was more like “Combat! Drek! Ouch!� And comparing SR4 to DnD 3.5, you just don’t own enough of the supplements; They’ve got SR so far outstripped it’s more than a little scarry.


People talk about combat to find smarter and better ways to do it. Going back to your original statement, it seems you’re more interested in doing it faster and harder, which doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing.


2: Under normal circumstances, Magicians would/should try to avoid casting high-Drain spells wherever possible. What’s the problem with that statement? Where have I ever said “never�? In fact, I usually include a statement about “if you really need to, then it’s worth it, so go ahead� or something along those lines. I’m not sure what your complaint with that statement is or could be.

Am I serious? As a heart attack. And to take your sports analogy, yes: professional players do not push themselves to the limit on every play of every game. In pre-season, nobody wants to get hurt and miss the season. In main season, if you can win without taking a chance of side-lining yourself, you’re not going to push. In the playoffs, players will push themselves, but only when that last measure of effort might make a worthwhile difference. In a championship game, the season is over, and everything is on the line. If the opposition rolls over, why push? But if they put up a fight, you give it everything you have, because even if you hurt yourself, you’ve got the off-season to recover. Soldiers are ESPECIALLY good at pushing their limits without exceeding them except when mortal combat is occurring; Training is highly intense and pushes the soldiers, but is designed to keep them from doing serious injury to themselves wherever possible. So, prior to finding out what kind of security you’re up against, you’re going to summon a large spirit, even if it means being significantly weakened in your ability to confront internal threats once inside? Remind me never to take you on as freelance with us for a ‘run. If you took the time to bind spirits from the seventh level of Hades in case you need them and keep them around, that’s another thing entirely. If I’m in the facility, and I need that nasty spirit, I can still summon them and take the same damage. As Falconer is so fond of (correcty) pointing out (you brought his name up, so I don't feel I'm dragging smebody else into this), guns do more damage over time without Drain to their users, so why on Gaia are you Draining yourself tossing mojo at rank upon rank of reinforcements? Wouldn’t a Fire Barrier, or Force Barrier work better if they haven’t got a Mage of their own? Or how about obscuring the area with an illusion? Or decreasing the REAction of their main combatant so the Sammy can light them up fully? Damage is easier to dodge than to soak. The Sammy’s job is to stand between the Mage and the bullets, preferably while returning deadly accurate fire. If the Mage can achieve the objective of the ‘run and nobody on your side is hurt worse by their choices, if they can think of a way to do it without the “headache� then power to them. That’s being smart.


On the OP: Why have “patches�? To get through the mission, of course. Did you want to push forward with all those wound modifiers? And we’re back to time. Maximum un-augmented skill is 6; Maximum wounds healable is 6; Maximum time taken per RAW withing those limits: 18 seconds. Since you’re probably doing that between firefights but during one ‘run, that’s as close to instantaneous as you’re going to find… or do you stay in “rounds� from the moment you cross the threshold of the building’s front door? Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot, you came in shooting those pretty toys you spent so much time allotting skill points to, so you ARE likely to have a running firefight all the way to your objective. My mistake, sorry.


If you don’t see the need for a fix, that’s fine. If you don’t have 18 seconds to attend to after-damage First Aid, omae, you’re so hosed it’s not even funny. I DO notice that this is not the first reference to a “gang� which should probably tell me something, too.


To be clear, the reason I suggested the things I did in the OP was because I didn’t feel it makes sense to 1) have Medecine be so relatively useless because First Aid takes care of almost everything anyway and 2) have Drain un-healable by magical means but healable by a mundane with an auto-injector in less time than it takes finish speaking a normal sentence. The fact that is ALSO helps reign in those “I’m a Mage FTW!� complaints I always hear about was just a bonus.


You don’t believe that Medecine and First Aid should be separate skills? So a paramedic is a fully capable trauma surgeon? Or, you just think one is a much higher level of skill in the same thing? First Aid is just that: the first thing done to help stabilize the patient, mitigate the effects of the injury, and prepare them for movement to a location where full treatment and healing can take place. Medicine deals with taking steps to permanently redress damage and illness and involves completely different sets of skills, tools, treatments and objectives. If you can’t grok the difference between the two, then suddenly I think I truly understand the reason for your disagreement with me: It’s all just numbers on a piece of paper (or the depiction of numbers on a computer screen) to you, and getting one total to go up while another goes down is all that matters. If that’s really what your arguments are all about, then I’m wasting my time. I just hope somebody else who read this got something useful out of it.


Nothing on this board is ever “mandatory�, and I have no power to compel anybody in any event. Even if it was Holy Writ on page Blabity-Blah of the BBB of RAW, tables are free to ignore anything that they choose at any time and for any reason. What people like me, who are obsessed with what you called an “arbitrary interpretation of correct� and “average� keep trying to do, is to help guide the actual game play in a fashion that keeps it consistent within the limits of the actual numerical framework we’ve been given to work with (currently SR4A) and the combined aggregate fluff of twenty YEARS of development. You seem to want a combat-centric pink-mohawk corporate-compound-assault (or GangWar!^TM) where everything else is secondary to violence. That may not actually be what you want, but it certainly is what you seem to be arguing for. If you don’t like the efforts of us “average� and “correct� people, feel free to ignore our threads. They’re pretty clearly marked. You’ve either misunderstood both my comments and my intent completely or you’ve chosen to cherry-pick and spin in an effort to turn this to your own agenda; Having your own agenda is fine, I’d just appreciate if in the future you’d just please not try to change what I’ve said when making your arguments.

to save page space and your time if you're really not interested in my response, since it's largely just rehashing a lot of what I have said above and in other threads. If you DO decide to read the thing, I hope you are able to take away something useful for your time.

Then you are making sub-optimal choices. All the prep work you can do off-site you do off-site, well before you are standing in the shadow of the fence. It's like getting over the fence and having to stop and drive back to weapons world because nobody remembered to bring any ammo. You don't leave major astral traces outside the target and take the risk of a botched summoning right outside their perimeter. You summon off-site, well before you need to, where you are can recover if you get unlucky.

Assuming you have the time to recover - remember, stun damage takes a minimum of 1 hour just resting. If not, what's the difference between taking the rain off site or taking it on-site? And if I'm going to summon just as a precation, and there's less than an hour to recover, I'm going to stick to a spirit I'm pretty sure I can pull for "free". Even if the spirit gets popped right off in a fight, the time the enemy is dealing wit the weak spirit I can take time to bring in the strong one that's actually proven needul. And if I have time to rest up ahead of time, we'd have time to do a little recon/legwork, so I would know if I was likely to need a stronger spirit.

It's NOT that I'm averse to Drain, it's that I'm averse to taking it pointlessly - from a Role Playing perspective - and don't want negative modifiers when we go hot on the 'run - from a crunchy perspective.

If legwork or recon show we're going to need big mojo, then it IS my job to bring it, "headache" or no.

Back check me on this: just because a spirit's tagging along in my aura, doesn't mean it's undetectable, right? So if they have astral security, having a spirit I don't need might very well draw more notice, mighten't it?

You don't attack right after dawn or dusk if you are a mage who plans to bring a spirit along. You have multiple hours between dusk and dawn. Effective use of this time is one of the things that allows mages to be successful. If you have a disaster the guards don't get to watch on the monitors as you lie unconscious outside the gate with a pissed off force 6 fire spirit trying to tap dance on your face while your teammates shoot it. (yes, I've critically glitched trying to summon a force 3 spirit....) On the other hand, if you know the other side tends to have powerful summoned spirits, dusk or dawn are great times to show up.


It doesn't actually say that anywhere as far as I can tell. If you spot the spirit you can trace the link (assuming the magician and spirit being tracked are both dumb, given the test time of an hour), but there is nothing shown in the assensing table or the tracking rules that seems to allow you to find the spirit given the mage only.

1. Tymeaus... read the rules. Illusion spells while not cast on a target, MUST BEAT THE OBJECT RESISTANCE OF THE VIEWER.
Similarly, I can't get a lower object resistance on a drone by targeting say the tires, on a drone w/ powerbolt. Declaring that you only need the OR3 of the camera is exactly the same. At what point do you cross the threshhold between a more complex machine made of simpler machines and change the object resistance? (rather pointless to have OR5 drone, if I can target say the plasteel casing which forms the dobermans leg for a lower OR).

Do I fully agree w/ the above, no. But that's how the book reads to me, and it does make some sense. Needing force5+ on an illusion to use it w/ 5+ hits is a bit of overkill. And I believe the best way to address that is to reduce their drain codes (because people will probably have to recast them to get them w/ sufficient levels of force). (I think the classic case is powerbolting the aircraft, as opposed to powerbolting it's 'skin').


2. I see Kerenshara already handled it. Totentanz, you're making it way too personal. I may disagree w/ her on this point, but I'm trying to argue in good faith. There's a lot of ground covered and suggestions by a number of people other than just her. Quite frankly, there's a huge difference between 'geek the mage' and 'screw the mage' and while I feel she's crossed that line, it's up to me (and others) to demonstrate how that is so; as well as her to demonstrate that she hasn't. Not just attack the poster for being the poster... attack the ideas not the poster.

Things I've noticed about her posts.
A. she comes from prior editions and tends to strive hard to return things to the bad old days. (example: healing damage used to take MUCH longer than it does in SR4, as in weeks/months).
B. we're all allowed to play in our own settings. my only point to posting is that while this can be made to sound great, it is a huge game breaker.

Up front question: IIRC in prior editions it was easier to avoid damage against puds because you could devote most of your combat pool to defense and didn't need a lot of it to attack. In SR4 I think this has changed. (never played SR3 only read it back in the day, so please clarify)

Addressing some more specific points.
C. A completely maxed pool is one thing. But then there's also the law of reducing returns... there's a point at which investing more into the skill is just overkill. Yeah you're the most badass right out of chargen, now what else can you do? I don't see one trick ponies as representative of shadowrun characters at large. (especially believable ones w/ backstories). That's why I disagreed w/ how much first aid will typically heal.
D. In reply to... the mage should just throw up a barrier rather than just say stunbolting the guard BEFORE IT SHOOTS HER!!... HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE DRAIN CODES ON BARRIER SPELLS!!! (It's +3 if you haven't noticed... so for reasonable force, of say 4 or 5, that's at least 5 drain to soak, all to buy yourself one pass... since one or two bullets will probably drop the barrier, it's only a rating ~3 hits structure/armor barrier)
E. I've taken a mage, I've just devoted say over a quarter of my points to magery... my agility is suck, I've got token ranks in a pistol if any. (15magician, 40 Mag5, 40+ sorcery/summoning skills, plus spells, plus assensing... that's a good 100+BP out of 400). Yet I'm supposed to use guns to attack, rather than resorting to a high force spell to achieve the same effect?
F. Since you constantly refer to 3rd SR. Why not play that, rather than trying to break 4e? Keep in mind that prior to 4th, spells were learned at a specific force and there was none of this, dial an appropriate level of effect.

IIRC (and I ask others to correct me on this as I had only very limited interaction w/ SR3) drain was commonly eliminated by use of the spellcasting pool (and saving dice from foci). It wasn't uncommon to cast high force spells, w/o devoting many dice from the pool, saving most of them for staging down the damage to nothing. So this is hardly anything new.



There's a school of thought which runs heavily in shadowrun. And that is defense through offense. If you can eliminate a threat before it hurts you, you can defend yourself from it.
Why SHOULDN"T the mage be able to use a low drain high force spell like stunbolt to knock out the security guard before it shoots her?!
Why is that route the exclusive domain of EVERYBODY ELSE. Why is it okay for the mage to use a pistol and do it, but not to take self-inflicted damage and do it through magic?
Would you rather suffer 1-2 physical after drain, or have to soak say 12 physical from the bullets that are coming your way?


I agree first aid is too much too fast by strict RAW. But if the problem is the speed of mundane healing, then the proper way is to address that. Limit the number of boxes that a single medkit can heal before recharge. Change the speed at which the first aid is done so that it's actually a hard choice. If it's 30s per box of damage, do you have 5minutes to patch everyone up before HTR shows up?

But on the other side of the coin, it is still only 1 point per combat turn. If we have say a hacker in a valkyrie module decking... that gives him basically regeneration 1 per combat turn (1 point per 5 passes really isn't that much). You could arbitrarily also change the time of a combat round to something longer.

I disagree strongly w/ the drain bits, because frankly... there's no point to playing a mage under those constraints. Drain mechanics have changed quite a bit, as well as combat mechanics. Mages no longer get a spellcasting pool, plus a combat pool they can devote purely to defense, etc. like they did in 3rd (remember mages only used their combat pool for defense while others would split it for both offense and defense). W/o that mages are even more fragile than they were in prior editions and take far more damage from sources other than drain.

Similarly, things are a lot different w/ variable TN's. And I'm regularly regaled w/ tales of mages past and their exploits. And how easy drain was on some twinked chars

Now onto some of Kerenshara's assertions:
1. My prefered game is actually street level and lower power!!!
2. I'm involved in a high power game yes as that's the only one currently running. Even there initiate grade 2, magic 6 spellcasting 4 is NOT ALL THAT HIGH. My spellcasting dice are only *10* (12 health)... more if I use up a bound spirit service for an aid sorcery (and money is tight, EG: force 4 aid sorcery costs MORE than buying bullets). So edging a force 9 stunball and pulling 9 hits is a huge leap of luck (and yes it was a swarm of spirits w/ magical guard, which is the reason I got all but I think 3 w/ the stunball!!). Background counts of 1 and sometimes 2 aren't uncommon (about 50% of the time, and yes I have cleansing, but using it tends to alert people to our presence! so much for that vaunted stealth... though it was a nice surprise on the rating 4 aspected when I suddenly erased their edge)
3. I'm playing the mage not because I wanted to, but because I'm the most experienced player in a magic heavy campaign and someone had to. So I bit the bullet and took a health focused one so I could heal the adepts (much more friendly to new players) w/o stealing their thunder. What I tend to refer to as 'going nova' is quite rare, but when it's happened it's stopped a TPK (or a situation where the mage would be the only one to survive because I was the only one w/ the brains to run, evade, and escape).
4. Said game is very very unconventional.. and many shadowrun norms don't apply very well.

In SR3, mages could use their magical abilities for offense, which used the spell pool rather than the combat pool. This meant that they could use their combat pool solely for defense.


Mages generally had to split their dice pool of sorcery plus spell pool into three things - spellcasting, spell defense, and aiding Drain resistance. But they had a lot more potential modifiers to their dice pool, and the opposition didn't always have mages. In that kind of optimal situation, they could add their totem and foci bonuses to casting the spell, while using their spell pool to help them soak the Drain. So, as an example, a dragonslayer shaman (+3 to combat spells) with a Force: 6 manabolt focus, sorcery: 6, Willpower: 6, and spell pool: 6. That mage could roll 15 dice against an opponent's Willpower, while rolling 12 dice to soak down the Drain.

Mages in SR3 were far more powerful than their SR4 counterparts. In SR4, you need to overcast a spell for that one-shot kill, and you still won't get it as reliably as the SR3 mage could simply by casting it at 6D (or even 6M, if his dice pool was decent).