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SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 6 2009, 09:26 PM) *
The thing I think might have been missed to this point is that if the anti-whaling forces are willing to abandon non-lethal methods, shoals of small, fast vessels could swarm whalers easily and anti-ship missiles - even the heavier models - are surprisingly compact and light-weight.


Forget that. Eco-terrorist cells wouldn't have access to expensive, high-profile gear - think old fishing boats and secondhand Zodiacs. Improvized weaponry, matrix assaults, and magic are likely to be the name of the game.

Anti-whaling groups are likely to have amongst their numbers a large number of "avenger"-type toxic shamans. This neatly solves both the issues of firepower and reconnaisance. Considering that they could probably aspect the boat they're travelling on in their favor, a couple of initiated toxics could easily sink a small whaling ship.
Snow_Fox
And a Great Dragon AVM mounted in an old zodiac would do a heck of a lot of damage in the right spot.

I was thinking on this. I think the pollution in the North Atlantic would end the european whaling. Even if you don't get eaten/sunk by the anbimals and eco-activists. the costs would be prohibative. BUT we have not heard of any huge toxic zones in the Pacific so in theory the whales and dolphins there might be free of too much toxin.

ALSO in the 6th world the Japan-o-corps from 2050, made up 4 of 7 AAA corps. There was a serious flexing of Japanese imagry-think not? does your street samurai carry a dikoted Katana? Even without a market I think they would have gone ahead with whaling, maybe even corp sponsored "who can get the most?" to give the finger to the weastern nations that tried to stop this beloved' tradtion.'
Kerenshara
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Sep 13 2009, 06:29 PM) *
Forget that. Eco-terrorist cells wouldn't have access to expensive, high-profile gear - think old fishing boats and secondhand Zodiacs. Improvized weaponry, matrix assaults, and magic are likely to be the name of the game.

Anti-whaling groups are likely to have amongst their numbers a large number of "avenger"-type toxic shamans. This neatly solves both the issues of firepower and reconnaisance. Considering that they could probably aspect the boat they're travelling on in their favor, a couple of initiated toxics could easily sink a small whaling ship.

I'm not sure why you think the eco-terorist forces would be any less well funded than they are today. ASMs are relatively CHEAP, it's just hard (in the 5th World) to GET them and they're sticking to "non-violent" means for propaganda. They're already clearly well enough financed to get a ship, crew, helicopter, fuel and supplies to chase a whaling fleet. The extra cash needed to buy a couple ASMs wouldn't be a horrendous problem. If SHADOWRUNNERS, as in individual people, can in theory get their hands on the things, what makes you think a big organization would have a harder time?

Um, so Toxis Shamans are pro-nature... did I get that right?
kzt
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 13 2009, 10:21 PM) *
[font="Lucida Console"]I'm not sure why you think the eco-terorist forces would be any less well funded than they are today. ASMs are relatively CHEAP, it's just hard (in the 5th World) to GET them and they're sticking to "non-violent" means for propaganda.

Relatively, sure. On the order of a million bucks each, plus the fire control radar and systems to program it to find a target.
SpasticTeapot
I severely doubt that megacorps would go whale hunting - it's simply not cost effective once you consider the need for what amounts to a small flotilla to foil eco-terrorists and Awakened sea creatures. More likely are small, independent operators who take huge risks in return for an equally huge payoff.

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 13 2009, 11:21 PM) *
Um, so Toxis Shamans are pro-nature... did I get that right?[/font]


IIRC, there are two types of toxic shamans - "avenger" and "poisoner". They're both pretty much equally bonkers, but the former is psychotically trying to protect nature while the latter is destroying it.

While Greenpeace is in fact well funded, it's also more or less nonviolent. Groups taking more direct action (such as TerraFirst!) would likely operate in a cell structure with funding limited only to untraceable sources, similar to modern terrorist groups such as Al-Quaeda. This would prevent the demise of the organization in the event of the capture of any given cell, and the limited sources of funding would result in the use of less expensive forms of destruction.

While anti-ship missiles are relatively cheap, so are ECCM systems and other devices (point defense lasers?) capable of eliminating them. On the other hand, mages capable of dealing with a prepared, initiated toxic shaman on home turf are rare indeed.
hobgoblin
now i have the mental image of SR aquaman as a toxic avenger shaman riding into battle on top of a big whale, commanding all kind of other sea life.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 14 2009, 12:22 AM) *
Relatively, sure. On the order of a million bucks each, plus the fire control radar and systems to program it to find a target.

Stop thinking 70's era Soviet. The Harpoon and Exoset are both light-weight and capable of BOL (Bearing Only Launch) capabilities. Get a ping of the badguys and you can loft the missile in that direction. You really don't need much more than a control board on the firing ship. Many of the short-range airborne weapon systems (Pengin comes to mind) need active guidance which makes them much more vulnerable to interception. Keep in mind that both Exocet and Harpoon are capable of sub-surfact (submarine torpedo tube) launch.

The costs thrown around for the Harpoon (the superior of the two missiles I mentioned) vary from $475,000 to $720,000, mostly being right around $550,000 or so. Bear in mind that something like this would be essentially overkill with 2070's explosives in the warhead - 488 pounds / 220 Kg - and the range and terminal penetration features are probably a little excessive unless the whalers pick up some kind of networked and layered air defense (outer intercept zone, Inner intercept zone and last-ditch point-defense). The price also reflects the 1980's defense appropriations system and then-cutting edge technology. A new missile could probably be designed to do the same things with a fly-away cost of about half that. And that's a "medium" weight weapon in today's context. Heavy-weight ASMs come in at nearly the size and weight of a very small fighter jet. The light-weight ASMs are under a 1000 pounds / 454 Kg total.

Something to bear in mind is that civilian ships lack the massive (and I use the word advisedly) passive defenses of an all-up warship, things like tight compartmentalization and armor of any kind even over vital spaces. They lack the redundant systems and manpower for massive damage control efforts. It's significant that HMS Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor were both destroyed (please note here I did not say "sunk") by a single Exocet strike each. HMS Sheffield was a warship, but her aluminum construction was a critical weakness. Atlantic Conveyor was about 50-70% larger than the largest US Navy cruisers (Ticonderoga/Bunker Hill class) and destroyers (Arleigh Burke class) now in service, and more than three times larger than HMS Sheffield but she was a merchant hull. And the Exocet's warhead is only 75% as massive as the Harpoon's. On the other hand, I found prices for early-generation Exocets at as little at $75,000 and late generation at 250,000 - less than half the low-ball figure of Harpoon.

We're not talking multiple millions of nuyen per missile here any more. The missiles listed in Arsenal are orders of magnitude less expensive than their modern counterparts. No, if the eco-nuts wanted to get their hands on light- or middle-weight ASMs it wouldn't be too much of a problem. (The heavy-weights are a bigger challenge because of the size of the deck mountings needed and are designed to cripple a 100,000 ton super-rugged super-carrier in a single hit and probably sink them with two, so they're decidedly "overkill"... which might actually suit them just fine, now that I think about it.)
Kerenshara
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Sep 14 2009, 12:59 AM) *
I severely doubt that megacorps would go whale hunting - it's simply not cost effective once you consider the need for what amounts to a small flotilla to foil eco-terrorists and Awakened sea creatures. More likely are small, independent operators who take huge risks in return for an equally huge payoff.

IIRC, there are two types of toxic shamans - "avenger" and "poisoner". They're both pretty much equally bonkers, but the former is psychotically trying to protect nature while the latter is destroying it.

While Greenpeace is in fact well funded, it's also more or less nonviolent. Groups taking more direct action (such as TerraFirst!) would likely operate in a cell structure with funding limited only to untraceable sources, similar to modern terrorist groups such as Al-Quaeda. This would prevent the demise of the organization in the event of the capture of any given cell, and the limited sources of funding would result in the use of less expensive forms of destruction.

While anti-ship missiles are relatively cheap, so are ECCM systems and other devices (point defense lasers?) capable of eliminating them. On the other hand, mages capable of dealing with a prepared, initiated toxic shaman on home turf are rare indeed.

Don't assume these guys would have to be small cells. Remember, a lot changed in the 6th World, and if you've got a highly eco-friendly nation (say, Amazonia?) willing to give a safe port to these folks, there's no reason for them to have to try to conceal themselves. A cellular structure is vital when operating inside somebody else's borders, but if you're safe at home or in, say, international waters you can get away with a LOT more.

ECM (not ECCM, which is what's packed into the missile) is NOT cheap. I'm not sure who told you that. The levels of sophistication needed to defend a vessel the size of a whaling mother-ship are both massive (in displacement requirements) and hideously expensive. Nowhere will you find a better example of the constant - and generally losing - battle of "armor" against weapons. ECM reduces the effectiveness of the seeker head on the missile, but it's by no means a sure thing. You're still going to want to try to splash the thing. The ECM mountings on modern warships are some of the most expensive components onboard. They also require HIGHLY trained crews to be made most effective. I NEVER figured the whalers to go the electronic route in defense. Now, I know you're going to point to the ECM and ECCM rules in Arsenal, but those are on an entirely different level that what you'd need against modern ASMs. This isn't just about degrading the "Signal" level of the radar. This is about spoofing - making the radar think you're someplace else, and that's HARD with a ship because you only have two dimensions to work in (ships can't dodge vertically). In terms of money, manpower and tonnage, a whaler is going to be far better off with getting their hands on the best quality point-defense they can.

(I had gotten fixated on the defiler type Toxics, sorry. We didn't often deal with any kind of Toxic in the game we used to run... heck, I only ran across a bug once or twice.)
Snow_Fox
Actually I was thinking that whaling by corps might have a whole other use-it draws out the violent eco-warriors it's a lot easier todeal with them on the open seas than when they come out of the barrens to raid you. With less of a chance of there being survivors to get to the media.
CanRay
Or, even better, your ability to spin the media.

"Look at how these poor people, who just try to work to feed their families, are attacked by a rag-tag group of Terrorists who have no reguard for Metahuman life."
kzt
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 14 2009, 08:45 PM) *
Or, even better, your ability to spin the media.

"Look at how these poor people, who just try to work to feed their families, are attacked by a rag-tag group of Terrorists who have no reguard for Metahuman life."

"...Therefore we blew up the port they came from. We regret the loss of life."
Snow_Fox
Not even, "we discovered this debris floating in the weater off the antartic ice shelf. Clearly these poor deluded souls went to sea on boats completely inadequate for their purpose, clearly showing they are not thinking clearly. Naturally we searched the scene for hours to try and find any survivors but in that water our medical team said they would not have nay chance after 40 minutes. We did find some pieces of survival suits that appear to have been shredded by sharks. We have passed these on to the families as best we could so that they might have some consolation."
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Sep 5 2009, 06:15 PM) *
Is there whaling in the 2070's?

I do not know about Iceland or Norway but modern whaling in Japan is just because of influencial power blocks. There is no market for the meat they take. Despite claims it is a part of Japanese culture, the bulk of the meat rots in warehouses. The only scentific research seems to be does mink whale go best with red wine or white?

The only time it was a big part of the diet for a large part of Japanese culture was in the 1940's when the war meant any protein was hard to come by. The fact it is not truly a part of the culture is shown in that it is an economic failure today and eaten as an exotic oddity than a staple.

BUT in 2070 would this still be the same? Japan in the 6th World is a super power but would the high cost of 'real' food mean that whaling is active again? And would that be the 'deadliest catch' considering what might happen with a meta-whale. Have any of you read Moby Dick?

What about the indians in SS? Isn't one of those tribes claiming whaling as a right?


IMO in the Shadowrun world all manner of luxuries should exist for elderly Japanese company men but as a rule you can't ever have any. You must drink soykaf in a business motel, excuse me, coffin motel.
Snow_Fox
I stumbled on a cannonical answer, sort of, while looking for something else. In Target Wastelands, dealing with Antartica there is a shadow comment about the Japanese base at Showa-interesting irony in that name, upplies the massive lfeet of whaling vessels. Another poster says they are not whalers but research vessels, which is what the RL Japanese say today. To date their research is limited to do mink whales go better with red wine or white.
hobgoblin
check your keyboards battery wink.gif
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Sep 25 2009, 09:21 PM) *
I stumbled on a cannonical answer, sort of, while looking for osmething else. In Target Wastelands, dealing with Antartica there is a shadow comment about the Japanese base at Showa-interesting irony in that name, upplies the massive lfeet of whaling vessels. Another poster says they are not whalers but research vessels, which is what the RL japanese say today. To date their research is limited to do mink whles go better with red wine or white.

Don't you mean "hot or cold sake"?
Snow_Fox
Probably not, they treat whale like a heavy red meat, that doesn't work with sake too easily.
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