Well I was thinking of this thread when I realised that a even more important quistion needs to be answered.
Given this senaior who would win:
A 20th level D&D party dose battle with the feared Trassaque, (I know theirs bigger badys in D&D from other books but he is the most iconic) inchs away from a TPK the group abjurer casts a a prismatic wall right in the beasts path. It drives forward makeing all its saves but the last, the violet layer. Transporting it to a random plane, the DM rolls- random demiplane. Instead of sending the epic beast to some random corner of the multiverse it is sent to a alternate material plane. Shadowrun, as in the privius example the point of battle is Lofwyr's private iland but this time the Tarrasque is telleported right in not airdroped.
Who wins?
My moneys on the Tarrasque whats your opinion?

Hm... I'm on the fence. The Tarrasque is intended to be nigh-indestructible. However, I've killled it more times than I care to count. Lofwyr definitely has access to the one thing that ruins the Tarrasque's day: flight. On the other hand, Spell Resistance is a bitch the reflective carapace is worse, and IIRC it is immune to just about everything.

My guess would be Lofwyr wouldn't engage but instead manipulate an enemy into doing it, effectively turning the Tarrasque into his own weapon. I know that doesn't answer your question but honestly it is hard to find a mechanical relationship between the systems.

The difference between a Great Dragon and a Tarrasque is that if you send a GD to a different plane, it will be able to find it's way back.

Rember if he dosn't have access to a wish spell the best he'll be able to do is nock it out. (Unless he takes a major extream)

dragons can invent pretty much any spell they feel like on the fly.

frankly, my money is on lofwyr. the tarrasque can't fly, and has no ranged weapons. he will just deposit the tarrasque into some location that constantly deals an arbitrarily large amount of damage (for example: space, the deepest part of the ocean, or some other suitable location) and then proceed to ignore it.

also, i find the described scenario implausible; a 20th level party should be able to pwn a tarrasque easily. well... a 20th level party that includes a wizard and/or cleric, at any rate.

Oh hell, why not go all the way and throw in a Neutronium Golem as well.

Doesn't the Tarrasque have a supression field that would keep Lowfyr on the ground?

French dragon legends are the root of the D&D Tarrasque. Since so many SR critters are from real world mythology, you could very well have Tarrasque as an SR Great Dragon, who's very good at faking (or recovering from) his death.

Straight D&D vs SR though, bottom lone is that Lowfyr can cast Heal all day, and can fly. Tarrasque can't. And Lowfyr is a very thinking creature.

Simple direct comparison comes down to this:

• A Great Wyrm can slaughter the Tarrasque.
• Shadowrun Dragons are vastly more powerful than their Dungeons & Dragons counterparts.

I always feel sad that I can never make threads like these with Exalted.

Exalted always wins, but only because it cheats with it's cheesiness. Elder Solars could eat GDs, IEs, and Megas for lunch at the same time and ask for seconds.

I'd definitely put money on the Great Dragon over the Tarrasque. It's much smarter, much bigger, has orders of magnitude more firepower (and magicpower) and more importantly is a comicbook mastermind supergenius.
Yeah, my money is on the GD. Although the first time the Tarrasque regenerates from a single cell I bet the GD is mighty suprised. (unless 4th ed removed that)

Only if he's within a certain range. It's like 50 feet or something like that, as one of the 100 Ways to Kill the Tarasque Under 4th Level is, in fact, 1000 level 1 flying archers (they crit eventually--at the end, everyone gets about 4 exp).

So yeah, my money is on Lofwyr. If you want to have an interesting fight (one where Lofwyr might actually lose), teleport in Pun Pun.

Lofwyr wins. The major weakness of the Tarrasque is its inability to fly or engage flying creatures. The only limitation to a group of D&D characters being able to kill the Tarrasque is finding a way to fly and having a character that can cast Wish. Somehow I think that Lofwyr could handle that by himself, let alone with all the resources he could bring to bear on it.

Pun-Pun automatically wins. Pun-Pun gets exponentially more powerful the more abilities he has access to, and as soon as he hits the Shadowrun universe, he's already got every ability there is. The only way to beat Pun-Pun is to get to him before he ascends, which as of the latest I've seen someone got done around level 6.

WTF is Pun-Pun?
Pun-Pun = Bun-Bun?

Pun-Pun is a creation of the D&D forums as one of their theoretical exercises in character building to see what sorts of extreme things can be done within the letter of the rules of the game, much like the Troll Brick and Pornomancer builds here. It's a build that no sane GM would ever allow at their table, but is (arguably) technically rules-legal. It involves taking a kobold and adding a particular prestige class so that the character can eventually become arbitrarily powerful.

Behold Pun-Pun, the omnipotent, omniscient kobold. It's all very silly.

Oh, okay, so, something else entirely. Pun-Pun's name still sounds like a rip-off of Bun-Bun the almighty, but hey, whatever.

Reasons already stated; my money's on Lofwyr. Great intelligence, healing, ability to fly, huge wealth and resources, and I honestly like most of all the 'drop the Tarrasque into Jupiter' plan. It seems like while KILLING the Tarrasque is literally out of the Shadowrun realm, being only mechanically doable within D&D, beating and/or getting RID of it is relatively easy.
I'd actually put my money on Lofwyr against a Great Wyrm dragon from D&D as well. Though it'd be a somewhat closer fight.

Level 4 is the "soonest" (and really, the only character that can win, as if the builds start at the same time, Pun-Pun gets ascension at level 5). It involves Delay Death, +1 per 10 damage taken this round to skill checks, Friend Shild, three friends mules (who all explode when you're done), a bucket of water, and a Contingent Cure Light. You summon a god via skill-check ("Perform (God Summoning Haikus)" being the oft quoted example) while taking infinite damage, then make your +infinity to skills permanent with Alter Reality (use your infinity Diplomacy check to convince the god to do it). You also have to be an Artificer to pull it off by level 4. The only post ascension character that "wins" against Pun-Pun is Politico, who can (at level 11), in 6 seconds have a 40% odds of turning any hostile creature into a friendly one (and if he fails, he has a re-roll)--DC 60 with a +48 mod, IIRC. Or he can take the 6 seconds to turn them neutral, and then a minute to make them fanatic. Notably the artificer is better at convincing Pun-Pun to do his bidding, but Politico is a build that does it post-ascension.



Yeah, it's pretty cheesy. Even if you don't allow Pun-Pun access to ShadowRun abilities.

The important part is Divine Minion, which if I recall, is basically "You are the son/daughter of a god." It gives you shapeshifting as an 11th level druid at first level, then you abuse Master of Many Forms (the prestige class) in order to become a creature that is inherently broken and only exists in...Serpent Kingdoms? A setting that's part of Faerune (sp?) which itself was inherently broken when compared to core D&D.

Umm, final version of Pun-Pun was a level one expert if I recall correctly, it involved having a high enough knowledge religion skill to know the name of a certain demon prince who would, 'no strings' grant a wish.

Epic level characters use Tarrasques to farm experience. Forget killing it, just capture and cage one (like Jabba's rancor pit) then farm it for experience. Every time you KO it you get the exp. It's what any self-respecting epic level character does. To make it even better, just create some sort of hyperbolic time chamber so that you go in at 5:05pm and come out at 5:05pm a level higher.

Frankly, while the Tarrasque is the penultimate in the Monster Manual, you should really look at some of the Epic Level beasties to throw at Lofwyr.

Atropal. It can fly and it can drain the life energy of its opponents, as well as raise slain opponents as undead under its command.
Hecatoncheires. It cannot fly but it is hard to hit with both spells and weapons. It also throws boulders and has about 50 arms. It can also summon a partner.
Infernal. It can fly and becomes immune to any spell/caster combination after it has been used on him. He also drains magical power from creatures.
Phane. It can fly and affect its opponents with a temporal stasis along with being a master of time manipulation.
Xixecal. It cannot fly but it can summon five white dragons to aid it as well as being essentially surrounded by a 1,000 ft radius blizzard.

What's coming next?
Batman vs Lofwyr ? Cthulhu vs Lofwyr? Godzilla vs Lofwyr?

Dunkelzahn vs Lofwyr vs Ghostwalker in a three-way throw down.

I think next is dinosaur-riding Ninjas
followed by Mecha Abraham Lincoln armed with Febreeze.

It isn't necessarily a productive thread but it is amusing.
I won't postulate as to what this form of topic equates to...

Liberty Prime vs Lofwyr?

Lofwyr would win the battle, but would ultimately come down with cancer and die (from fighting a d20-based monster).

Pun-Pun is available at 1st level provided that:
1) Pazazu actually gives you a Ring of Wish
2) You can retrain Skill Focus to Assume Supernatural Ability, based on the premise that you have Wish, thus you can assume a new form magically.
3) You can polymorph your psycrystal into a viper long enough for it to matter (10 minutes of buffing to become Pun-Pun isn't the same as having "as much time as you want.")

HAH, I think Nezumi hit the nail on the head for this argument.

I thought it was taboo to even mention "that game" and here we are discussing its broken as hell prestige classes...ah well, at least we aren't talking about the 4th edition of cancer.

Yeah, the entire Pun-Pun build centered on the ability from Serpent Kingdoms. The ability was such that you could give any creature any ability. So the build was, give an ability to your familiar, have the familiar give the ability back to you, then something else to make it permanant. Very, VERY cheesy. I was really impressed that someone came up with it, though.

Anyways, I think that depending on how you translate ability maximums and hit points from D&D to Shadowrun, Pun-Pun could concievably be beaten in the Shadowrun world.

10 minutes is a LONG time in D&D. Consider this, Pun-Pun needs about 3 rounds (if I have my timing correct) to increase his own stats.There are 10 rounds per minute, so 100 rounds total in 10 minutes. That means Pun-Pun gets to increase his strength 33 times during that 10 minute duration. Pun-Pun will gain 2084 strength every 10 minutes. If he can only do this once per day, that's 2084 strength a day. It will take about 2 minutes to match his other stats to his strength score, so on the final day he will only add ~1636 strength. Even just two days would result in attributes equal to 3720, or 9275 due to his 5 hit dice. Consider that a lv5 character would be lucky to have more than 80hp. Once Pun-Pun reaches lv5, he could increase all his stats the first day to give himself 1636 Constitution or 4065 hp. At that point he has more than enough in saves and hit points to just survive long enough to run away, or even kill whatever is fighting him. In fact, after a single day Pun-Pun would be strong enough to survive. Pun-Pun must be killed before Pun-Pun can obtain 5th level, else all hope is lost. Unless the gods can somehow affect the process, but Pun-Pun would be able to kick most deity's asses in a straight up fight.



Shadowrun would need rules for deities before Pun-Pun could be translated.

Car bombs. Lots of them.

Lofwyr would buy out Wizard of the Coast to alter its opponent stats with the release of a new edition. But if you ask me, the comparison with Lofwyr is pointless, as D&D Tarrasque or Pun-Pun showing up in Shadowrun would create an instant mana spike, breaking the astral barrier and allowing Verjigorm, Wormskull et al to enter the world.

Now that'd be a fight I'd pay to watch. Pun-Pun - The Dragons (all of em) - The Horrors 3 way.

Once a day? He's got 2 wishes he can spend keeping his crystal as a snake.*

Also, that's the least important point out of the three.

*Though I wonder if the crystal snake has a mind capable of taking the request from Pun-Pun to use Manipulate Form on Pun-Pun. I don't recall exactly how Poly Any Object works with regards to turning an object into a person.** Also, you have to assume that the crystal-snake acts as a familiar, and not as a snake which would slither off.

**Crystal-snake would need some level of human-like intelligence to use the ability at command on Pun-Pun in the way that Pun-Pun wants.

Oh, I was working off the Pun-Pun build that had been linked, which makes no mention of Wish.

I was responding (initially) to someone who mentioned the "Do it at level 1, by getting Wish" which is found in the Talk section of the Pun-Pun wiki entry.

Guys i got Bad News for Lofwyr.

meh. i'm sure lofwyr, being naturally able to fly, can figure out how to avoid a balloon with no steering mechanism. or, more likely, he'll just grab the top, fly over the ocean, and puncture the balloon... after all, if someone else is nice enough to take care of the more difficult part of transporting the tarrasque, you may as well take advantage of it.

Oh wow, that's harder than I've lol'd from something on the internets in awhile. I really need to send that to my old D&D group now.

Better dead than red!