Ahem, Quick Healer gives other People Dice to heal the guys with Quick healer, or something.
Not the guy with quick healer more dice for healing other people, right?

+2 die on/for/by him/her.. so yes.

Reading that I am drawn to the following conclusions....

You either...
A. Logic + First Aid + Medkit Rating
B. Logic + Medkit Rating + Medkit Rating - 1
C. Logic + Medkit Rating + Medkit Rating

--



Hackers make the best <insert logic based, defaultable skill role here>.

Hackers make the best Demolitions experts.
Hackers make the best Medics.
Hackers make the best Surgeons.

No skill? No problem! Give them a rating 1 skill soft.

But if you cap hits at skill level or even twice skill level like the dice pool, all those dice mean nothing because technically without skill you can't get hits. Two times 0 is still zero.
Of course, this is pretty draconic and makes life much harder for every character . .

..rating of equipment is Acting As Skill, so..
..i thought at as long as die pool stay under 20 everything is ok..

Argh...
I hope devs will add some clarification to these rules.

BTW: Looks like we must change the phrase "geek the mage first!" to "geek the hacker first!".

Geek everybody that's not big, tough and strong and armed and armored as havy as some combat vehicles first.

I'm going to toss this back out there.



The problem, and result of thinking that you get the Medkit's rating twice, stems from the fact that this should have been said in multiple sentences.

Check it:

The medkit's rating is added to the dicepool of First Aid tests. If a character lacks the First Aid skill, then the rating of the medkit is used in its place for the First Aid test.

The reason I come to this conclusion is the Shadowrun test naming convention.

In order to make a First Aid test (without defaulting), you must have the First Aid skill. If you lack that skill, then you are defaulting when you try to make a First Aid test. When you default, if you'll look throughout the examples, you are "defaulting to X-1," not "making a First Aid test at X-1."

When you do have the First Aid skill, then the Medkit is effectively providing bonus dice.

Whether you still take a -1 to Logic when using a Medkit I agree is still questionable and open to interpretation.

So the possible tests, by my reading and cross-referencing, are:

Character with First Aid skill and medkit: Logic + First Aid + Medkit

Character defaulting, with medkit: Logic (perhaps -1, perhaps not) + Medkit
(because again, a Medkit replaces the First Aid skill for purposes of a First Aid test; personally, although I acknowledge room for interpretation, I would lean towards Logic -1 + Medkit, because the character is still defaulting, i.e. doesn't possess the skill)

Character defaulting, no medkit: Logic -1

You're no longer arguing from what is written. You're arguing from your own very special version of the document that almost certainly has some other changes elsewhere that support your interpretation. You've decided that you can't win by reading what has been written and decided that you'll try to move the argument to things that are written in your head. You'll always have a distinct advantage in such circumstances by dint of actually knowing what is inside your head.



If you don't count as having the First Aid Skill when you replace it with the Medkit Rating, then you can't heal using those rules at all. Same standard applied in both places. If the replacement of the character's skill does not mean they effectively have the skill, then they can't apply the bonus to First Aid Tests under your supposed rule, but they also can't use the skill to heal people in the first place!

Not to mention that there's no Attack or Defense Skills, and the Attack and Defense Tests are not declared by the rules to be referred to as such, yet they are referred to by those names.



This implies that the names of Tests are just whatever happens to be convenient. I can refer to the Chase Test to refer to a Vehicle Test used in Chase Combat and not to any other Test and this is the same naming scheme that the developers used.



This has exactly the same meaning as I've argued the original version has. Two rules in separate sentences that are side by side still both apply because they are separate. You can apply both the rules simultaneously (there's no flowchart involved to tell us which order to use) and the first sentence doesn't state "if you possess the First Aid Skill" except through your supposed rule that says that a Test must be referred to using the Skill involved, and that defaulting on it turns that test into a nothing Test.

The only way to force only one to apply is to state that only one of them can apply. That's the problem you have here - the rules do not. Saying that the rule should be in two sentences does nothing to alleviate that fact.

Oh, and Drones make Perception, Defense, Vehicle, Attack, and Electronic Warfare Tests without having the Skills (they might have Autosofts with the same name, but they don't actually have the Skills).

I'm using SR4, only one I have in PDF copy....





The first sentence in the first quote seems pretty clear, it states that if you're trained you get [Logic + First Aid + Medkit Rating], if you are untrained you get [Logic + Medkit Rating]. The problem lies in that the second sentence in the first quote doesn't exclude you from receiving dice pool modifiers. When you combine that with the second quote, it says that the medkit rating gets added to the dice pool of ALL First Aid tests. A REPLACE is not ADDING.

This line has been thrown out as well....



The BIG problem with this line is the usage of AND instead of OR. AND implies that both sides are true and active. OR implies that both sides are true, but only one is active.

Once again, Shadowrun's rules are unclear. I think the intent is supposed to be [Logic + First Aid + Medkit Rating +/- Other Modifiers] but the rules as written only lead to [Logic + First Aid/Medkit Rating + Medkit Rating +/- Other Modifiers], leaving the only real question to be whether you are considered untrained while using a medkit and get a -1 for defaulting.

If this is true, then what is the point of the First Aid skill? Most characters will never have a First Aid skill that exceeds a Medkit. I see three major reasons to get First Aid.

1. You don't have a medkit.
2. Specializations, but do you still get your specialization bonus if you use the medkit rating in place of your own skill?
3. The rules as written are incorrect.

::steps around puddle that used to be a horse::

well if i were taking this to a court of law, i would have to guess that [Logic + (First Aid OR Medkit Rating) + Medkit Rating +/- Other Modifiers] would win. Though that comes from having sat beside a lawyer acquaintance of mine while he had a 40min conversation over the use of the word "would".(that was a very dull lunch)

but i think that's silly and would not use that in my game.

[Logic + First Aid + Medkit Rating +/- Other Modifiers]
OR
[Logic + Medkit Rating +/- Other Modifiers]

i like that, its an opinion, but it's how i'll play.

@Heath: Dude, relax.

Yes, I happen to know what the naming conventions are. I had to learn that to help proof some stuff. Why you would disregard that is a mystery to me, because I'm telling you straight up: I know what the test naming conventions are, directly from Catalyst, officially set forth blah blah blah.

Outside of knowing that, the one that applies I explained in my post, I didn't pull anything from anywhere but the Shadowrun books. You know, the ones we keep pulling text from?

You like the reading that allows something to be counted twice. That's fine, but that's something that appears only one other time that I can remember in the whole game (Full Defense gives you Dodge twice), and in that instance it is spelled out clearly in black and white as a rule. Does it make more sense that there's one random, unwritten exception to standard practice, or that standard practice applies?

I ask you to read what I said again, without hostility. I'm not citing outside sources. I'm not contacting the demon world and spilling a first born's blood for answers. I'm doing exactly what you're doing: looking at the text, applying critical thought, and coming to an interpretation. You're free to disregard it, same as any other load of BS you read on the internet.

As an aside, your point about drones has no bearing on this matter. When they make tests they are not following the Attribute + Skill convention that a character performing a task follows.

I agree that the version where you can't use the medkit rating to add to the dicepool and replace your skill at the same time makes the most sense.
I even agree that that's most likely how the author intended for medkits to work.
But sadly, that isn't what's written in the rulebook, which is why we've introduced a houserule at our local table to make it work that way.

By RAW, there are two distinct sentences with two distinct ways a medkit can be used and they never even hint at being incompatible with each other, so the only correct reading of the text is to assume that they can be combined, as that's the standard for all SR rules (you can combine dice pool modifiers for superior position and aiming, although the rules never explicitly state that, simply because they don't forbid you from doing so).

Well, the examples randomly violate the core rules, so you can't really argue that Catalyst understands the core rules. For example, the difference between a success test and an opposed test and what happens when you don't exceed the threshold in the example on 184 of SR4A.

I never argued that "Catalyst" (as if it were a single person) understood the core rules, so that's a bit of a non-sequitur.

Yes, but you are arguing that they explained to you what the core dicepool rules were, so it isn't as far off as it would seem at first.

Seriously though, I hate the fact that you don't have the default on first aid if you have a decent medkit and would throw heavy object at any player who was silly enough to try to apply the medkit's rating twice.

I was angry, because you're disrespecting the argument. The argument is a dialogue between two sentients based on observable fact. By trying to move the argument from considering a text that exists and is available to everyone to knowledge to which only you are privy you demonstrate scorn towards your fellows. Before you ask, yes I do happen to have a set of etiquette for arguments. This includes screaming matches. What, is it weird? I enjoy arguments - anger is an experience to be savoured like all the others.

The standards that the Devs enforce upon themselves when writing must be ensconced in the rules if they are to have any value in the reading of those rules. Otherwise the usage of the name First Aid Test can not be said to enforce any requirement that the Character for whom the Test is made have the First Aid skill.

Furthermore, you are applying the standard in a skewed way. The standard does not concern itself with a Character - just the Definition of the Tests and how they are referenced. You are trying to apply a measure that relates to terminology to the rules whilst they operate, which makes little to no sense since they are clearly intended for different purposes.

I do not actually like the reading that mandates Logic + Medkit + Medkit if you do not have the First Aid Skill. I mentioned that the reading would be considered cheesey beyond belief by any sane GM in my first post (I was expecting everyone to miss it, though - thanks for meeting my worst expectations). The fact is that the rules state this nonetheless. Just as they state that loading a First Aid Autosoft into the Medkit will give you a bonus if you are a "trained medtech" - which clearly means that you have the First Aid Skill.

Well, I don't particularly enjoy arguments. I don't mind discussing things, but if you think to argue me into some kind of submission, feel free to talk to the air. I've given my interpretation. Use it, don't use it, all the same to me.

You know, I've read the thread, and keep coming back to it, and there are two things that I see, and I am going to try to sum it up as follows:

First: The rules for MedKits and First Aid are poorly written/edited and as they currently stand can be read in several ways depending on how you believe the writer intended it to work.

Second: The rules for MedKits and First Aid as written, no matter how you wind up interpreting them, wind up resulting in First Aid that functions on the same level as Magic in the Shadowrun universe AND are very close to the sort of "magic healing" we are more accustomed to seeing in traditional pure-fantasy level-based RPGs (read: DnD 3.x).

A lot of people want to read it one way or another because it favors their style of play, and I really think the Dev's seriously dropped the ball by not taking the opportunity SR4A represented to actually fix the wording, even if they didn't changed the mechanics. (Possible future FAQ/Erata?)

What I'd like is an honest and subjective evaluation of the effectiveness of First Aid as currently written and generally interpreted per the Rules As Written in the 6^th World. Compared to nearly any other fascet of the game/universe, the MedKit rules are out of sync and extremely powerful. Can even the proponents of the existing system for whatever reason agree with that statement? (well, ok, both statements??)

I disagree Heath Robinson, "behind-the-scenes" information about how and why the devs make the rules that they do is of the highest value in any debate and although I ribbed eidolon about it is wonderful that he clarified the issue. Of course I happen to think that the issue should have already been clear since the only time that I remember applying the same dice twice in one test is with Full Defense.

Emphasis mine.

And frankly, that's a very speciffc case that's internally consistent with itself.

Exactly, which is why I think the entire tanget is rather silly at best, if the devs wanted you to be able to do it in another case than they would have spelled it out explictly.

Possibly. I don't think anyone here agrees that [Logic + Medkit + Medkit] is sane, however it is the only literal interpretation of the rules as written. However, I also don't think the [Reaction + Dodge + Dodge], [Reaction + Dodge + Weapon Skill], or [Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics] has as keen a bearing as you think it does to whether a medkit doubles up. All three of those applications are doubling up of skills, whether it is the same skill twice or a mix of two skills. The double medkit rating is not a double up of skills on the check. The medkit replaces your skill, and you can get it as a modifier. So to set precedence you need another rule where an object can replace your skill or provide a bonus to it but not both. Writing [Logic + Medkit + Medkit] is technically flawed, it should be written as [Logic + Medkit (Replacing Skill) +/- Bonuses] and the bonuses include the medkit.

Think about what you said for a moment, the only literal interpretation of RAW. Praise be to the Spirits, the rules weren't written by lawyers, for lawyers so that statement alone is bullshit.

Now with that out of my system, tell me, other than Full Defense is there any other time that you get to "double up" on anything in Fourth Edition? And more importantly is it or is it not explictedly spelled out in the rules as being an edge case?

So, if I go full defense parry with a medkit, do I roll Agility+Medkit rating+Dodge+Weapon Skill or Agility+Medkit rating+Medkit Rating+Dodge+Weapon Skill?

Seriously friend, you need to either SERIOUSLY lay off whatever it is you're taking, or bring enough for all the other children to share.

*grin*

Your idea is clearly just a Band-Aid^TM on the problem.

*wider grin*

Consider that your pun-ishment.

Except you're not doubling up on anything. As Heath pointed out, a medkit is a combination of two things, an autosoft and supplies. There's no distinction made as to whether it is the supplies or the autosoft that is providing the bonus, and frankly the argument can be made both ways. If I have an EMT medical kit, I can provide far better first aid than if I have a little kit with bandaids and anti-septic. So if the trained medtech is getting the bonus from supplies, why doesn't an untrained individual who has his skill replaced with the autosoft rating also get a bonus from the supplies?

Emphasis mine.

You know, you bring up a really good point, because the fluff for the MedKit says:

SR4A, P.337: Biotech

Medkit: The medkit includes drug supplies, bandages, tools, and a (talkative) doctor-expert system that will advise the user on techniques to handle most typical medical emergencies (including fractures, gunshot wounds, chemical wounds, and poisoning, as well as offering advice for the treating of shock, handling blood loss, and of course performing resuscitations). The medkit’s rating adds to the dice pool of all First Aid Tests, and replaces the character’s skill if the character doesn’t possess the skill (Medkits and Autodocs, p. 253). It must be refilled regularly (usually after every mission, gamemaster’s discretion).

Essentially, if you are using a First Aid ActiveSoft, that's functionally "rote" knowledge, and no different from what the (talkative) doctor-expert system is babbling away with, right? (Another reason First Aid is too fast: the MedKit can't spit out more than a sentence or two, even if tied into a biomonitor so it knows what to say instantly in 18 seconds!) So are you really getting a full bonus from the MedKit? And an ActiveSoft overrides any knowledge you have (or may get?) so can the Rating of the MedKit replace an ActiveSoft?

You know, considering how wonderful a job the Devs did on most of the rest of the system, the didn't give much space to healing, at all.

Yep. Basically a medkit must provide benefits using one of the following methods.

Autosoft
Autosoft + Supplies:
Supplies

However based on how the rules are listed it cannot provide a bonus solely through the Autodoc, since trained Medtech would just override their First Aid skill. If it's based on supplies alone, then the untrained would not replace their First Aid skill with the Autodoc rating (as indicated by the Medkit rating). Even worse, if the rating is a combination of Autosoft + Supplies, lets say 50/50 split with Supplies getting the odd points, then a trained medtech would ALWAYS get a lower net bonus from a medkit and than an untrained individual, since a medtech will always have at least 1 point in First Aid. To put into numbers, a Rating 6 medkit has a rating 3 autodoc and rating 3 in supplies. A medtech with 2 First Aid would have a +3 from the medkit from supplies if he uses his First Aid skill, and net +4 if he uses the autodoc in place of his skill, while the untrained individual would net a +6 bonus. And further, if the Autodoc replaces your skill, is it even possible to default on a First Aid check as long as you have a medkit?

NOW do you begin to grok just why I'm so frustrated / disillusioned / unhappy with the "First Aid" Rules As Written? Any single piece sort of makes sense, but when you try to put it all together AND try to make it fit into the "usual" rules framework AND start to look at things subjectively (3 seconds per box, bits of fluff that don't mesh, being superior to Magical healing - especially if twinked right), it turns into a total mess.

That said, I'm beginning to formulate an idea as to how we might tweak this so we get to a middle ground where fluff, Crunchy Bits^TM, and realism all come to the same table. Let me chew on this a bit, but an idea's forming.

How about "Medkits don't have Autodocs."

Edit: Regardless of what middle ground is reached, you reach a huge disconnect on what about the medkit is providing bonuses. The only thing I can think of is that a Medkit's total rating is a combination of autodoc/supplies and when you buy it you determine the rating of the autodoc. So you could get a medkit with no autodoc and rating 6 supplies, or you could get a medkit with a rating 3 autodoc and rating 3 supplies.

Perhaps "a (talkative) doctor-expert system" is not autosoft, but a whole very specialized system, compatible with supplies in a given medkit version? If so, system + supplies should have one rating as a whole, and still can help medic-PC (highlighting a necessary part of supplies?...). And cannot be upgraded, except for re-programming.

You don't subtract 2 from your net hits. You subtract 2 from the number of successful hits, and then what is remaining is your net hits; so if you roll 4 successful dice (a 5 or 6) and your threshold is 2 (for first aid) then you have have 2 successful hits. You then heal the number of net hits you have; in this case 2, so if Johnny the elf is hit for 6 boxes you only heal 2 of those boxes.

Uh-huh, then we have the problem of why can a program that merely talks to you is better than an actual 'soft that downloads the info straight into your brain ... nevermind the fact that Kerenshara pointed out, namely that if medkits came with autosofts than it couldn't provide the bonus that it does to trained medics.

I don't know if this is going to help any, but in my noob reading of the stuff on the medkits, I always took it like there was X Rating amount of supplies and a X Rating knowledge skill about first aid, sorta like a few first aid books I have sitting around my home. Just because I have access to the knowledge doesn't mean I have the active skill to work within a dynamic enviroment.

So I end up reading it as either:
A) First Aid Skill + Logic + Medkit Supplies + Situational Modifiers
B) First Aid Default + Logic + Medkit Supplies + Situational Modifiers

I even interpret battle dressings of first aid as addressing the negatives by stabilizing the boxes in the track but the actual healing still needs medical time frames to heal, unless its magical like some sort of super healing factor thingy.

But after reading this thread? I am more than a little bit confused as a noob, realizing I was just making up what I thought might make sense to me.

Quick question to further my own understanding of this Discussion:
What do you mean with "First Aid Default"? Defaulting means either using another skill with a slight negative dice-pool modification, or using attribute, using a more severe dice-pool modification.
If i remember correctly, defaulting to attribute means attribute -3? or -4? dice? And then you would add the Attribute to that again?
So somebody with Logic 6 would get Logic-2 or 3 (2 or 3) + Logic ( 6 ) + Medkit Supplies + situational Modifiers?
Also, what do you mean with the Medkit Supplies? The supplies alone don't do anything for you, if there's no Medkit around telling you how much of what you are supposed to put into your bleeding buddy there.

Nope. Defaulting is attribute - 1. Maybe his thread wants a SR4 tag.
Back in SR3 was:
- skill in same group, TN + 2, max usable pool = half used skill OR
- specialization of a skill in the same group, TN + 3, max usable pool = half of base skill of used specialization OR
- appropriate attribute, TN + 4, no pool allowed

What Ears said, I'm just working with my copy of SR4A so all I know is that having no ranks in a skill means you default, which is -1, right? So if you First Aid Default, you get -1 to your Dice Pool on those tests First Aid skill is used in IIRC.

And the Medkit supplies not doing anything? What? Sure, I guess with some First Aid skill you might at least rip strips of cloth for bandage and improvise splints, but surely that sterile bandage, glue, gauze, etc is going to make a difference. The better your tools, the better your chances?

Hmm, I hope that addresses your two queries as to my post, Stahlseele.

I pointed that out. =/

The nature of the medkit and how it acts, according to the rules, makes it impossible for the medkit to solely provide its bonus through supplies (it wouldn't replace the First Aid skill of the user then), and it is impossible for the medkit to solely provide its bonus through the autodoc (trained medtechs would receive no bonus). This leaves us with both the autodoc and the supplies of a medkit being what grants the bonus, and for a rating 6 medkit to provide a boon of +6 to a trained medtech, the medkit must provide a +6 bonus through supplies. For a medkit to replace the users skill with a +6 the medkit must have a +6 autodoc.

The crux of the issue is that if the R6 medkit has a rating 6 autodoc (to replace the untrained users skill) and rating 6 supplies for the trained medtech, how come the untrained individual cannot receive the +6 bonus from having the supplies?

Here I thought they did plus a talking AR manual but the manual doesn't apply the band aid, right?

Aye StealthSigma no matter how you look at it the rules don't really make sense, what they should do is vastly increase the cost of the kits, state that they come with a 'soft, and then have a much smaller bonus from the supplies...

Oh, sorry that I missed that you pointed the problem out as well...

OK, so it sounds like, now that we've all examined the details of the relevant Crunchy Bits^TM, that most people seem to agree that regardless of whether they like the end result (fast turn-around), the Rules As Written are seriously messed up when it comes to First Aid, and especially as apply to the use of MedKits? Right?

End Result is stil the same for the example I gave... 8 Total Hits (*grin*) -2 for threshold, Heals 3 for maximum Skill rating, leaves 3 unuseable hits for healing...

But Thanks for the catch... Total vs. Net hits to start... I knew what I wanted to say, I guess it just came out a little wrong...