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Synner667
QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Oct 12 2009, 10:11 PM) *
I don't know if this will help any as I am a newcomer to SR (I only have the 4 and 4A books) but I graduated in 2001.

As far as the economics of SR4A 2072 go, I see it a lot like the world of today only the "free" market has been allowed to run wild, you know, sorta like the latest depression. Say, wasn't there a dip in the market in the 70s/80s after a bunch of deregulation too? Rich get richer, poor get poorer, regulation of the system goes bye-bye, crashes become more and more frequent but periods of insane profits happen too and so on and so on. The biggest things in SR verse that seems to have not contributed to social-economic change appears to be resource shortages and climate change, which between the VITAS reducing world population significantly and magic restoring some of nature's dominance on climate change seem to be what prevented those end/change games. SR even screwed with religious dogma dominance too, didn't it? SRs wars probably contributed too.

I kinda see it like the world has had its economic complete collapse clock reset back to the days of just when the Train Barons started to get going, only now those lines go completely around the World. say in a Wide Web. The world balkanized but not at the same time.

Except, of course, that the corp future that Shadowrun [and most cyberpunk portray] is an unworkable one.

The last year has shown the precarious nature of corporations and banks - all it takes is a single event and they tumble like dominoes.
Which leads to more regulation, not less.

Almost all the big companies from the last 100 years are gone - a result of their basic business model not being a longterm viable one.

The cost of constantly hiring staff would reduce any profits gained by a company - loss of skills, hiring costs, etc.

In a future where smart machines control drones, interface mind to machines and exist in dataspace, a $10k processor core will do the work of a roomful of low wage people [since they would not be doing anything requiring high levels of skills - data entry, basic admin, etc] - without the need for floorspace, excercise, training, etc.
To maintain that a company would rather hire and abuse a roomful of people is desperately trying to maintain an office as we have in the 2000's.


But back to the topic in hand...
...Entertainment will be the same as now - some people will enjoy virtual lives, some people will enjoy sports, some people will enjoy no sports at all.

Rich people will probably not do virtual sports, because to do real sports shows off their wealth - as now, getting hot and sweaty and actually doing something often gives way to being seen and flaunting cash.
of course, they'll undergo maintainance surgery to keep trim and beautiful - like they do now.

Poor people are more likely to do sports [real or virtual] - because they can't afford the access time.
And a lucky few will be good enough to make money from their ability.
hobgoblin
thanks to semerkhet, i now have the mental vision of every major european and north american nation being in some level of debt to zurich orbital, and has to get their approval on certain economic actions...

think think WTO, world bank and IMF all rolled into one entity, have the national economies go into a nose dive from the awakening and all its side effects, then have the bank in the sky step in as a lender of last resort, based on its holding in the various AAA's.

all this then starts quietly pushing for privatization of all kinds of public services, and a unraveling of economic laws.

basically take the bolivian water privatization, but apply it to all kinds of areas, and no one reacting as they are already beaten silly by the awakening.

if one then add the issue of megacorp land being its own "nation", they can declare the newly bought waterworks and similar their land and basically claim they are defending them if ever the protests needs to be "managed".
Ravor
Nah, Semerkhet although I enjoyed the articles you linked, I still think fedual is a better fit for the overall structure, albeit the meaning of "military force" and "land" are different. cyber.gif
Kumo
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Oct 12 2009, 11:34 PM) *
The cost of constantly hiring staff would reduce any profits gained by a company - loss of skills, hiring costs, etc.

In a future where smart machines control drones, interface mind to machines and exist in dataspace, a $10k processor core will do the work of a roomful of low wage people [since they would not be doing anything requiring high levels of skills - data entry, basic admin, etc] - without the need for floorspace, excercise, training, etc.
To maintain that a company would rather hire and abuse a roomful of people is desperately trying to maintain an office as we have in the 2000's.

Well... with augmentation, pharmaceuticals etc. workers can be useful for a longer period. Probably.
Sometimes people cannot be replaced with smart programs/machines - R&D, for example. And machines are also vulnerable: viruses, hacking, EMP...

@Ravor:
Feudalism was about "we give you food, workforce, horse etc., and if somebody (bandits/neighbors/pagans) try to harm US, then YOU put your ass into armor and go fight for our safety". Not about "you fuck with us, and we let you to do it". At last, feudalism died naturally - bunch of noblemen was no match to new weapons and trained professional armies. And feudal economy turned out to be uneffective.
Corps need internal regulations, boards of directors, army of managers - or they fall down very fast. Even Lofwyr can't control everything, everywhere and always. And directors, shareholders and managers want something in return.
Some kind of "feudal" relationships can be found between syndicates like Mafia (or more responsible gangs) and common people at their territory.
Apathy
My question might be "Why do we care if the dystopian corporate setting of shadowrun is unlikely to really happen?" It's unlikely that half the population will die to VITAS, unlikely that corporations will become more powerful than first world governments, unlikely that the native americans will take half the US and trigger our fracture into lots of mini-states, etc. It's the setting because it makes a fun story. If you demand absolute realism in your games it's unlikely that they'll be much of a need for shadowrunners at all.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 13 2009, 08:42 AM) *
My question might be "Why do we care if the dystopian corporate setting of shadowrun is unlikely to really happen?" It's unlikely that half the population will die to VITAS, unlikely that corporations will become more powerful than first world governments, unlikely that the native americans will take half the US and trigger our fracture into lots of mini-states, etc. It's the setting because it makes a fun story. If you demand absolute realism in your games it's unlikely that they'll be much of a need for shadowrunners at all.

Strawman, meet torch.

Nowhere did I or any other poster demand "absolute realism" in the Shadowrun setting. You're just creating a nice strawman to beat on. As I said previously, I like to project our modern world into a type of dystopia that is different than the one the original writers of Shadowrun envisioned while writing in the late '80s. I also specifically gave the disclaimer that if a person likes the 80's feel to the SR setting, then go for it. For my own tastes, I like to have a *moderate* level of plausibility and internal consistency to my future settings. That's hard to do with Shadowrun, what with all the catastrophic and world-changing events you mentioned that make it very difficult to forecast future economic circumstances. Still, we make do with what we have and the SR1 vision of the future no longer works for me or my players. I post on this forum to provoke (hopefully) interesting discussion on the topic at hand. My views are not set in stone and someone on this forum might just change my mind.

Ravor
Exactly, I agree that the fedual ecomomy is very ineffant, but the corps don't really care about that because they are more interested in keeping the "serfs" down than making as much money as they otherwise could.

As for the "fuck with us" comment, if I understood you properly the reason that the corps are willing to put up with the cold war and Shadowrunners is simply because the weapons that would be used in an actual hot war would destory everything, so tis the lesser of two evils for the powers that be. I would like to imagine that the lords would hesitate to actually nuke each other had they WMDs as opposed to throwing the lives of the serfs away in battles. (And yes, I see the corps as not only being willing but actually following in the footsteps by throwing away the lives of their peons.)
Kumo
QUOTE
Exactly, I agree that the fedual ecomomy is very ineffant, but the corps don't really care about that because they are more interested in keeping the "serfs" down than making as much money as they otherwise could.

Sorry, but for me it sounds like "great evil overlords" in heroic fantasy of some kind wink.gif . I like "realism" in 6th World, including its economy. Not "total" realism - it would make most of RPGs unplayable. If You like another vision, that's OK.
Well, most SR sources say that corps act nearly always in the name of Holy Profit. It's also crucial, if they want to dominate the world - that's why we call it capitalism. They make profit, use it to gain more power, then use that power to make more profit.

QUOTE
As for the "fuck with us" comment, if I understood you properly the reason that the corps are willing to put up with the cold war and Shadowrunners is simply because the weapons that would be used in an actual hot war would destory everything, so tis the lesser of two evils for the powers that be. I would like to imagine that the lords would hesitate to actually nuke each other had they WMDs as opposed to throwing the lives of the serfs away in battles. (And yes, I see the corps as not only being willing but actually following in the footsteps by throwing away the lives of their peons.)

Youre right. Total war in 6th World = nuclear holocaust = no power, no profit for any corporation (or worse, all power and profit for our enemy corporation).
Ravor
You do realize that with the new wireless 'Trix ect the entire setting has imploded assuming that you play the NPCs with ANY ammount of "realism" at all. So don't feed me bullshit and tell me that it's fine dining, my "evil overlords" (Which I don't agree with btw.) are no less realistic than your NPCs with willful blind spots.
Kumo
QUOTE
You do realize that with the new wireless 'Trix ect the entire setting has imploded assuming that you play the NPCs with ANY ammount of "realism" at all.

Why question.gif I think it's quite possible in future and I have no problem to imagine that.

I just don't believe in "domination for domination alone". If any corp would tread all of her employees like a shit, sooner or later they'll show a finger to the corp and blow her from inside. And no indoctrination will help against it - just a serious brainwashing. So if a corp want to have loyal workers, she has to make them WANT to work for corp.
HardSix
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Sep 19 2009, 08:00 AM) *
OK I'm one of the voices, howling in the wilderness, against 4th ed but I have said that I liked the decking stuff.

I was ,finally, reading through unwired and was really worried by the hwole entertainment thing. People can live virtual lives, even a wired family all sitting around in a living room all watching differnet forms of entertainment completely oblivious to their fellows around them. In theory many office workers living in the protections of an archology could 'log on' to work while on their way. So how long until the corpers start to atrophy?


I'm not sure wage-slaves would atrophy physically, unless they were temps or lowest rungs. Corps would see that they get minimal exercise to stay healthy because it's cheaper on their healthcare budget and a well mind depends on a healthy body. Sure, they'd be full indoctrinated in corp policy and group think, but they'd be in pretty good shape.

Having seen all the promos for Surrogates (haven't got the books or seen it though), I'd imagine corps would love to limit outside excursions to using wireless Surrogate-like drones. The corp could keep a humanoid 'drone' pool and mid-level employees could rent them for an afternoon or evening. Higher-level employees (especially valuable execs and scientists) would probably have their own custom models. The meat body stays safely locked up in the corp compound, preventing messy off-corp-property extractions or 'accidents.' Plus, a dedicated AI/knowbot system could monitor the two-way control and prevent the employee from giving up sensitive info, while also logging anything that might be incriminating or embarassing. I'd also imagine corp-kid gangs would love to rent generic bod-drones on weekends, then go Downtown to whup some rival gang butts or just beat up SINless trogs and daisy-eaters.
Ravor
Kumo I think you are vastly undestimating the impact that unlimited storage, unlimited bandwidth, magical encryption cracking, and extremely cheap blanket tracking would actually have on the ability for Shadowrunners to do their jobs.

And I disagree that my vision boils down to "domination for domination alone", tis more akin to the elites protecting the status quo in order to ensure that they are on top til the end of time, remember that in the Sixth World brainwashing is cheap and easy thanks to simsense, loyal wageslaves are a mere emotive track away, imagine getting the same high as really good sex whenever you finish a report on time.

And that is ignoring the fact that by the time Shadowrun has come about, almost no-one who remembers the old way of doing things is still alive, so ideas such as raising up against the corps are all but dead ouside of the Shadows.
hobgoblin
can someone say "hide in the noise"?

if one could create a "magical" database that would spit out terrorists and others, it would be done...

but as they say, garbage in, garbage out.

i recall FBI wanting to set up a real life database over anyone buying fertilizer and diesel at large amounts.

only problem is that this database would then contain just about every US farmer...
Ravor
Except that Fourth Edition also has magical datasearching capablities, including magical programs that can do the searching for you, if I remember correctly extended tests are still unlimited in nature lest you apply an excellent optional rule. cyber.gif

Seriously though, we have fragging RFID Tags in food, and even if you run a tag easer over every piece of food you eat you'd still have them in your system since the majority of food is more than 1 cm thick. And we haven't even touched upon the other magical sensors floating around corp land.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 16 2009, 05:59 AM) *
Except that Fourth Edition also has magical datasearching capablities, including magical programs that can do the searching for you, if I remember correctly extended tests are still unlimited in nature lest you apply an excellent optional rule. cyber.gif

Seriously though, we have fragging RFID Tags in food, and even if you run a tag easer over every piece of food you eat you'd still have them in your system since the majority of food is more than 1 cm thick. And we haven't even touched upon the other magical sensors floating around corp land.


iirc, the GM can claim a piece of data so uncommon that it cant be located with at datasearch...

and has it ever been stated that every last piece of food is tagged, or just that the rfid's in SR can be made so small that one could potentially (note that word) do so?
Heath Robinson
Ravor,

You're abstracting away all the complications.

Giving any kind of reward for an causes the maximisation of that event at the expense of any unrewarded factors. For example, being rewarded for filing reports on time ensures that reports are filed on time. Those reports will be total utter shite, though.


The complexities of keeping tabs on everyone is that you still have a limited amount of manpower to go out and prosecute these crimes. You still have to filter all those events. Your filters have an optimal curve/surface through their phase space that maps to a slider between More-False-Positives and More-False-Negatives. You cannot eliminate either no matter what you do (for every criminal act there are several perfectly normal acts that are just as suspicious). Either way, Shadowrunners (who specialise in getting away with things) will be able to slip through the cracks.
Ravor
Sure, but given the big brother reality television survilance that we are lead to believe exists I have a hard time with the first notion.

As for the second, it's my understanding that although not all food is tagged, enough is that tag easering it is desirable.
Ravor
*sighs* Ok, the warm fuzzy feeling from earlier is completely gone thanks partially to you Heath Robinson.

Firstly if you had even the slightest ability to comprehend and remember the written word you'd understand that I HAPPEN TO LIKE FOURTH EDITION!!! There is that plain and simple enough for you?

Now with that said, despite it's strenghts Fourth Edition also has it's weaknesses, one of which being the fact that the devs have gotten sloppier about introducing things without thinking through the ramafactions of their own creation.


As for the rest of the post, you've actually managed to stumble upon a couple of decent points, of course the reports are going to be largely worthless if the corps only relied on the cookie without following up with a damned big stick for the workers who deliver more than their quota of "shite reports".

As for the far better obversation about having to filter the data you came up with, that goes without saying but unless you honestly believe that Fourth Edition is supposed to be the Care Bears and Rainbow Brite edition said filters are going to be set to provide more false positives than negitives.


And let's repeat it again class RAVOR LIKES FOURTH EDITION, BUT HE IS WILLING TO BRING UP ITS FAULTS AS WELL!


*EDIT*

Kay, the size tags were making my eyes hurt so I removed them.

*EDIT 2.1*

My eyes that is, not the tags, the other way around would just be crazy. cyber.gif silly.gif
Ravor
Oh, that's playing dirty Heath Robinson, if you are gonig to edit your posts to remove your baseless claims at least be man enough to leave a note explaining what you removed.
Kumo
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 16 2009, 04:54 AM) *
And I disagree that my vision boils down to "domination for domination alone", tis more akin to the elites protecting the status quo in order to ensure that they are on top til the end of time, remember that in the Sixth World brainwashing is cheap and easy thanks to simsense, loyal wageslaves are a mere emotive track away, imagine getting the same high as really good sex whenever you finish a report on time.


Sorry, I misunderstood. My mistake.

But normal simsense... it's still "just" an entertainment. BTLs are dangerous, so extensive use of them is risky - you can make a large percent of employees mentally disabled. Or worse - some hacker can do something really ugly with software, and next day a few thousand of wage slaves get their wetware toasted.
Of course, if a corp really want to brainwash anyone (a catched shadowrunner, for example) they don't care of such things.

QUOTE
And that is ignoring the fact that by the time Shadowrun has come about, almost no-one who remembers the old way of doing things is still alive, so ideas such as raising up against the corps are all but dead ouside of the Shadows.


I didn't mean "raising" exactly. I just think that ultra-paranoid, abused workers sooner or later start to work against their own corp - because of anger, laziness, fear etc. Low-grade employees are not a problem - corp just kick them out and hire another ones. But there wuold be a problem with talented managers or programists . And if you fire large amounts of peple at a regular basis, you will have a trouble to find new.

Yes, corps definitely AREN'T good guys. But they can make a better business, if they PRETEND to be ones.

QUOTE
Kumo I think you are vastly undestimating the impact that unlimited storage, unlimited bandwidth, magical encryption cracking, and extremely cheap blanket tracking would actually have on the ability for Shadowrunners to do their jobs.


Yes, in this point my "quasi-realism" has a little problem. But I agree with Heath Robinson - there should be enough "shadows" in Matrix 2.0 to give runners a chance to do their job. It would be harder, of course. And tag eraser is a must-have (something I don't like in RPGs).
Ravor
I disagree on the effectiveness of even lowgrade simsense, we are told that emotive tracks are inserted into comericals all of the time so even at cold levels they must be pretty effective. Better Than Life on the other hand is probably too dangerous for long term useage for anyone who actually needs to use their brain.

Actually I agree that the talent are treated better then the wageslaves in the same sense that minor lords were treated better than the serfs, but in the grand scheme of things, they are still little fish in the pond as opposed to the pond scum that their suborbients are. However I disagree that the corps have to peven pretend to be the good guys anymore, the population has been beat down to the point where that is no longer necessary.

As for the 'Trix 2.0, the only way I see Shadowrunners as being able to exist are if the "shadows" are being created by the rampant corruption and Eighties Style dystotian shit that the setting needs, the instant that you try to bring things into the nineties and into a real "profit is king" mindset those shadows start to disapear and the setting implodes as Runners can't get the gear they need anymore and the corps start to actually work together, at least on the surface, good PR. And the and Z-Zones are the next to go.

*EDIT*

Corrected a minor typo, long term as opposed to low term. cyber.gif
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 16 2009, 06:48 AM) *
Oh, that's playing dirty Heath Robinson, if you are gonig to edit your posts to remove your baseless claims at least be man enough to leave a note explaining what you removed.

You are right. I editted to remove stupid things that I said because I often have extreme lapses of judgement. I had hoped to catch them before you responded to my posts and therefore remove any cause for argument. I clearly did not.

I can only offer my apologies for what I did and said.
CanadianWolverine
That has to be one of the things I love about Dumpshock, when I was reading the posts between Ravor and Heath, I was fully expecting a regular forum flame fest, followed by a lock and bans handed out by an admin/moderator. I am glad I was wrong.

QUOTE (Synner667 @ Oct 12 2009, 02:34 PM) *
Except, of course, that the corp future that Shadowrun [and most cyberpunk portray] is an unworkable one.

The last year has shown the precarious nature of corporations and banks - all it takes is a single event and they tumble like dominoes.
Which leads to more regulation, not less.

Almost all the big companies from the last 100 years are gone - a result of their basic business model not being a longterm viable one.


Almost all? Which ones survived? And why did they survive? I kind of get the impression that is part of the reason there are shadows for us to run in, the corps know deep down what they do is unsustainable, they are just trying to be the one who is left standing in their fallout shelter after the fallout so they can rule the world ...

Maybe that is part of the reason behind "Replace Or Augment Your Reality!" entertainment, they are trying to make that eventual life in their bunker, which probably isn't a whole lot different than living in their corporate structured extra-territories, that much less strenuous.

Yes, I am totally comparing Fallout's Vaults and Overseer mentality to Shadowrun's AAA Corporations. Both seem to be "The Last Man Standing" and each seem to have slightly different ideas on how that will be accomplished (referring to Fallout Vault experiments and SR4 Corporate Cultures here).
Kumo
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 16 2009, 05:37 PM) *
However I disagree that the corps have to peven pretend to be the good guys anymore, the population has been beat down to the point where that is no longer necessary.


Hmm, I consider about differences between SR and "classic" cyberpunk... Looks like corps in SR are a bit... weaker(!) Why?
1. Opponents - powers-that-be are not only megacorps:
- some goverments still can stand against corps, or even deal with them as equal partners. Especially Awakened nations, like Amazonia.
- ecoterrorists. They are much more dangerous than Greenpeace or a ragtag lunatics.
- religious/magical orders/sects - just like above.
- dragons and probably Immortal Elves - just look at Draco Foundation or Lung's Triads. And most powerful corps (S-K and probably Aztechnology) are ruled by this kind of beings; they act a bit another way than other.
2. Corporate Court. Yes, they work at corps' favor. But if any corp abuse rules, CC may vote against her.
3. Disasters like Renraku Arcology incident, Chicago, or Second Matrix Crash shook status quo a bit.

My point is that 6th World changes more dynamically than "classic" cyberpunk world. So it's harder to maintain status quo - corps have to act more carefully an flexible.
Ravor
Heath Robinson hey no problem, I overreacted and got way out of line too, last night was alittle "interesting". -- Your apoligy accepted and mine extended.

CanadianWolverine yep, tis the great thing about Dumpshock, even when we are at each other throats we can be full of suprises.

Kumo I have a slightly different take on things, I figure that even the governments that seem to be standing against the corps either don't survive long term, ala Seattle's southern Tir neighbor or are able to survive because of Magic gone wild, ala Amazonia. (Of course, I'm not sure I'd call Amazonia a major power.) Terrorists have always been a problem in any cyberpunk setting, albeit they usually wear different skins. I personally don't agree that the Great Dragons and IEs really have that big of a role in the world with the exception of oen author or another having a fnaboy momeny and going crazy every once in while. Also I'm not so sure that the Arc Shutdown or Second Crash really changed all that much, but I do agree with you about the CC, as protrayed they do repersent something that isn't usually found in cyberpunk and I'll have to consider their impact more fully.
Kumo
I didn't mean that goverments/terrorists are really match for megacorps. I think they are just a bit more powerful than in Gibson's books or in Cyberpunk 2020, and can be more than just pain in the ass for megas.

QUOTE
Also I'm not so sure that the Arc Shutdown or Second Crash really changed all that much

They didn't. But they shook everything a bit.

I mean, corps aren't the ONLY powerful beings in the world - just MOST powerful. That's a difference.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Kumo @ Oct 17 2009, 10:13 AM) *
I didn't mean that goverments/terrorists are really match for megacorps. I think they are just a bit more powerful than in Gibson's books or in Cyberpunk 2020, and can be more than just pain in the ass for megas.


They didn't. But they shook everything a bit.

I mean, corps aren't the ONLY powerful beings in the world - just MOST powerful. That's a difference.

My reading of the 4th edition fluff in several of the sourcebooks tells me that the current developers envision a very multi-polar world with a number of roughly equivalent major powers, being the AAAs and a few of the major governments, and many lesser powers like the AAs, the Atlantean Foundation, mid-size governments, and so on.
Ravor
The thing is that I disagree on the "strength" of the organizations you are bringing up, what we are calling terrorist groups in the Sixth World would merely be rolled into the various gangs in typical cyberpunk, and with the exception of the "no-man lands" caused by mojo run amuck the governments really only exist at the corp's convience, sure they can be a pain in the ass at times for the corps, but that doesn't neccessarily require the corps to "play nice".
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