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Moon-Hawk
So, you get yourself a full body suit of ruthenium and want to do the whole chameleon cloaking thing. Good. But it doesn't work without scanners. You have to get at least 4 scanners, for a +4 modifier for people shooting at you. Of course, if you want it to work better, you can have up to 12 scanners, each one will add another +1 to the TN. +12 TN for people to see/shoot/etc you.
Here's where the problem comes...
So I'm trying to shoot said individual and my GM tells me the TN is +12. Yikes. So I cover my eyes. Not the TN is only +8 for blind fire. WTF?

As a GM, I let my players put up to 12 scanners on their ruthenium suits, but I never let them have more than +8 for fully visual tests. Of course, ruthenium is only half effective against thermo, so I let the 12 scanner guy get +6 against that. If scanners are damaged or something, it stays at full effectiveness, etc. But I never let them get more than +8 (the blind fire modifier).

Mostly, I was just wondering if anyone else had thought of this, or handled it differently. It seems like it would make sense, but as far as I know it never mentions (under the ruthenium section) any limitation to the effectiveness.
sidartha
the +12 should only apply to perception tests to notice the player while sneaking. During combat when you are moving quickly(dodging, running, punching) the runthenium makes you more noticable. if a guard is trying to shoot at a sneaking char then I would say only the +8 blind fire mod applys, but not when the PC's shoot back
Moon-Hawk
I still don't see why the fibers should make you more stealthy than if you're completely invisible (which would only grant +8 ) Otherwise, the on-duty guard would have a better chance to notice you by closing his eyes than by looking for you.
Pthgar
Maybe because when you're looking at something you're relying on your vision which Ruthenium is design specifically to defeat (T# +12). In a blind fire cituation your vision isn't used so you rely on your other senses which can detect a ruthenium outfitted person, albeit badly (T# +8 ).

What would really be messed up is a runner kitted out with Ruthenium and a Stealth spell cast on them.
Arethusa
The blind fire situation is predicated on knowing that your oponent is present, but not being able to actually see him or her. Hence, there are other senses, as well as just general prediction. That said, I personally feel the blind fire penalty should be +10 or +12, but that's another debate entirely.
Moon-Hawk
Yes, heaven forbid a thread goes in a direction other than originally intended.
Let's talk about that.
Blind fire +8, too lenient? Discuss...
Grey
Yeah, I only allow a player to take a blind fire shot if they know the general area the target is. Maybe they heard foot steps, or saw the dust being distrubed on the dirty floor. But if they don't know the target is there, they don't even have a chance to shoot.
Alania
Ruthenium gets less effective the faster you're moving with it
so you can still use the 12 scanners for moving arround without penalty compared to 8 scanners.
..up to 8 meters/ turn more ..can make quite a difference.
Zazen
I just use +8 instead of +12 for the maximum modifier.
John Campbell
I also house-rule cap the modifier at +8. Makes no sense for it to be more effective than complete invisibility.
BitBasher
same here
Grey
What do you guys think of this?

They get max of +8, but with more than 8 scanners, they can move a little faster than normal without the system going haywire on them.
Zazen
Too much for me to keep track of. The only advantage of extra scanners is redundancy.
Jason Farlander
Where does it say that invisibility grants a +8 to sight based perception tests? It isnt in the spell description (pg 195, SR3), and it's not in the perception test modifiers table (pg 232, SR3). I've always ruled that if someone fails to resist when observing an invisible thing, that person is simply incapable of succeeding in a vision-based perception test to detect that thing.

I dont know about you, but I think that "impossible to detect visually" is a little better than "+12 TN to detect visually, unless the perciever has themographic vision")

Then again, I also rule that its impossible to detect someone visually when in total darkness without some sort of vision enhancement (which just makes sense).

Finally, I only allow the +8 TN to blind fire if the shooter has some reason to know/guess where the invisible person/thing is. So, even if you succeed at your base difficulty 16 (+ lighting and cover mods, + stealth test result) perception test against a person with ruthenium/12 image scanners, you still have a +8 blind fire TN (note that the description of ruthenium does not mention that the +12 applies to combat)

Considering all of this, I dont think the possibility of attaining a +12 perception TN from ruthenium is at all unreasonable.
Teulisch
something i just though of-
you use ruth, it covers what it covers. But you still have a shadow.

so if its late afternoon, and you have a shadow, ruth isnt going to stop anyone from seeing that shadow of you, and if your shadow is on a wall, you just started drawing attention.
sidartha
Who knows what runthenium covered shadowrunners lurk in the coridors of SK?...
THE SHADOW KNOWS
darloth
Not that i ever think this would work with such a thin material without some really weird science (Something even shadowrun miht have trouble with) but i think ruthenium, in shadowrun, is assumed to actually emit the exact same amount (And colour) of light on the other side as was detected at the front.

Thus, you don't cast a shadow. Thats how i work it anyway.
(And no, it is not armour against lasers. Anything that high power burns through anyway, but it probably will transmit torch-beams or similar... Could be fun to use for other applications if this is the case)
BlackSmith
well you get the +8 if you cant see the target AND you have to gues where he is. you simply cant just roll the dice with +8 to TN and hit. you have to gues where the target might be and then make the lucky shot, but GM would only know if you hit even close.

if you want to get a blind shot, you gues where he is, roll and GM simply looks if your shot is in the same line as the might-be target. if not, it is a miss what ever the roll came up.
if you want to shot a ruthenium suit holding 12 scanners you get a max +12 to TN but at least you know your shoting at the right direction thus there realy is a chance for hitting the right target.
mfb
where the heck did you people come up with the crazy idea that ruthenium adds its rating to the TN for ranged attacks? it certainly doesn't say anything like that in the rules, unless there's an errata that i'm not aware of. if you wanted to, you could allow a ruthenium-coated runner to gain the effects of camouflage--+1 TN, or +1 per 4 'points' of camo if you're feeling generous.
Arethusa
I don't know about you, but near-total invisibility seems like it'd make targetting me just a wee bit more difficult. And considering that the rules word it as a "perception modifier," it's a safe bet that it was intended to be applicable in combat.
The Jopp
Why not say that for ranged combat modifier you apply the base TN of 4+ for shooting and then add another +1 for every scanner above 4? This would be equal to the total of blind fire + base modifier for ruthenium.

Now, remember, this is a person looking like something out of the predator movie by creating an optical illusion by 'warping' (ok, not really but you get the point) light around itself so you would have serious problems hitting such a target.


Also, you should reduce the hit modifier in such a situation with Thermographic vision and Ultrasound vision since the first one would still se the heat signature of the target and another modifier for Ultrasound since it doesn't give a damn about ruthenium.


Jason Farlander
Nope. When encountering someone in a ruthenium suit, you make a perception test. This perception test covers all of the means by which you could sense the person - for most runners this would be vision and sound (rarely smell). If the character manages to generate at least one success at the TN determined by visual modifiers, the character's stealth test, and the modifiers provided by the ruthenium suit, he or she may shoot at the character without regard to the ruthenium suit's existance. If he or she fails to generate a success on vision based perception, but do manage to generate a success in some other means of perception,the character may fire at the target, but must add the +8 TN modifier for blind fire. If the character fails to generate any successes at all, he or she is completely unaware of the target. Its all pretty straightforward, methinks.
The Jopp
Agreed, sounds good since you get the BF mod anyway. That's a minimum of 12+ TN for a non smartlinked character. With a smartlink you'd have a 10+ to base TN that can be modified by vision mods i think.
BlackSmith
QUOTE (Jason Farlander @ Feb 2 2004, 10:28 AM)
If he or she fails to generate a success on vision based perception, but do manage to generate a success in some other means of perception,the character may fire at the target, but must add the +8 TN modifier for blind fire.


and +12 to TN to hit a thing, that is perfectly camoflaged, is logical to me.
look at the nearest wall.
if there would be perfectly camoflaged person against it it would be next to impossible to notice him (or it).
you can't see where the persons starts and the wall stops so it is eyes paining to tell a part the target from the wall.
you try and try and try to see the person and might even see some vivid out lines if you got keen eyes.
damn hard to target one.
"there it goes, no there. wait. it hifted. there it is. no. there. "
but if you know that the re is a person against that wall you can simply shoot midle of the wall and hope you get lucky.

so yes, geting +12 to shoot someone is grounded. you could also take the BF +8 modifier but your shooting only generaly at the right direction. and if you want to hit him with a spell, its TN just jumped with +12. targets must be SEEN.

and against thermo and ultrasound it's TN modifiers are halved, by the rules (read bit longer of the ruthenium rules from the book).
you could negate the ruthenium TN bonus simplky by turning off your light based vison, but then you loose the ability to distinguish colours on items (bigest draw back is that you can NOT see what writen in any format).
and if you use ultrasound only, you cant see colours or even trough windows.

ruthenium works best combined with thermal insulation 8 and stealth spell.
+8 to see you. always. (astral dudes are just shot down with mana bolt.)
yes but he still has to gues WHERE to shoot at.
and if there is nothing to hit where the shot goes, it is a clean miss.

in no way you hit by just adding +8 to TN, not having a clue where to shot at.
Jason Farlander
The +12 is never added to your ranged combat or spellcasting TN. its added to your perception test, and only your perception test, TN. if you succeed on your perception test, you have NO modifier to your attack roll unless some other modifier (cover, lighting, etc) applies. If you fail on your perception test you get the +8 for blind fire, assuming you hear or otherwise become aware of the target, and you CAN NOT cast spells at the cloaked target, because you fail to see the target.

The fact that you get a perception test to notice a ruthenium-cloaked target is indicative of the fact that the target is not perfectly camouflaged.
BlackSmith
realy?
so if i roll a one succes in perception test against TN 24 (a good stealth roll) -BAM- the fact that you are next-to-invisible to naked eye is coldly bypassed for shooting purpose? so your posts says anyway.
right.
someone needs reality check.

its damn much easier to target a soldier in a jumpsuit middle of a forest than a soldier with a camoflage EQ.
and they are not even near-invisible as ruthenium is suposed to create.

if you doubt me i suggest you try some live practise in your home forsest.
The Jopp
Eh, I would disagree to some statements.

The +12TN modifier is just to FIND the target, now, add your base TN of 4+ wich mean you have a base TN of 18+ to FIND the target, after you have found the target you try too shoot him.

So, what do we have?

1. Finding the target base TN 4 add Ruthenium modifier (between +4 to +12) wich is a perception TN of 8 to 12+.

2. IF you spot the target you now try to hit a blurry outline looking like a mirage, a hazy outline like heat rising from the ground. The base TN is 4+ and to that you add the Blind Fire modifier of +8, that's a total of 12+.

NOTE 1: A character with Thermo and Ultrasound would have a +4 (Half BF modifier) to their to hit TN so they would have a base TN of 8+

NOTE 2: An astral perceiving mage would spot the target instantly since he would see an astral aura of the person that hides there. The only modifier he would get would be +2 for astrally perceiving.

...

Would you guys say that a streetsam with a smartlink perceiving a near invisible target would gain his basic TN of 2+ (Smartlink) because he NOTICED him? Come on, it's a near invisible foe, he cant be as easy to hit as Joe runner in a neon pink bunny suit standing within four meters of the streetsam?
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (The Jopp)
2. IF you spot the target you now try to hit a blurry outline looking like a mirage, a hazy outline like heat rising from the ground. The base TN is 4+ and to that you add the Blind Fire modifier of +8, that's a total of 12+.


QUOTE (BlackSmith)
someone needs reality check.



I would ask either/both of you to please show me where in the rules anything is mentioned about ruthenium modifying ranged target numbers. I'll save you the trouble if you wish: it never does. Whether the rules, as written, make sense or not is up for you to decide/houserule, but I am arguing from a strictly canon standpoint -- and nowhere in any ruthenium description are any modifiers to ranged combat TN's mentioned.

Furthermore, from a strictly rational standpoint, the "blind fire" TN mod *only* applies when you have to guess where the target is, because you can not see the target. Hence, blind fire. if you *can* see the target, you dont have to *guess* where the target is... you know where the target is.

Ive always thought that ruthenium is actually rather far from perfect -- a rather large flaw it does not project or transmit light, it just changes color rapidly. So on bright day in an open plain, you would have a shadow. A flashlight would similarly cast a shadow. a laser sight would stop when it hit you. Those sorts of things can make you rather easy to detecct. Furthermore, any sharp edges the target has would stand out -- if youre really perceptive (able to beat a base TN of 13 without taking into consideration environmental visibility mods like smoke/lighting) you can pick those out... and once youve noticed those telltale signs, it becomes easy to track the target -- unless you lose sight of the target (he/she ducks behind cover), in which case a new perception test would be required to find the target again.

One point of dispute I would be willing to accept would be that a single perception success would not be enough to spot the character. IIRC you actually need something like 3 successes to gather any sort of detailed information about your target (I can't check that right now... if someone could back me up by checking the perceptoin test results table I'd appreciate it). 1 success would certainly be enough to actually be able to guess where the character is enough to get the blind fire mod, but you might need 2 or 3 to ignore the blind fire TN mod altogether.
Zazen
I also use the ruthenium TN mods for ranged combat. It's laughable that cheap army surplus camo clothing provides a bonus, but 100k+ ruthenium suits do not.
BlackSmith
hey look at the sheer numbers and think a bit.
first you got around ~20 TN to see the target but if you got enough success (now he rised the successes needed from one to three. wow!) the TN for SHOTING the same hard seen target would drop to 3 (base 4 and -1 for target situanory additional -2 if smartlinked). something is not right here...

ruthenium affects your capability to SEE the object/target.
you use that same sense, SIGHT, to shoot at it/him.
you get that damn +12 to hit him as long as your only sense to locate him is based on light strength and its reflection mesuring sense (aka EYES).
hiting with red point targeter would not help you. to your point of wive your laser just hit the wall that is behind ruthenium yousing clever bastard. you would not know the difference because the suit show mimics excatly the partner that is behind him to show you always the perfect camoflage.

like said, propriet camoflaged full suit gives +4 at TN's. for perception AND shoting at.
and if you dont know camoflage means a colour partner that resebles as much as possible the surroundings thus blending you better to the surroundings.
ruthenium does excatly this, but almost perfectly.
how perfectly you ask? look the ruthenium point from the book. flip couple pages and there is a picture where an cybered elf and mariner (with cigared in his mouth) are helding guns in a indrustial environment.
see that strange vague figure on that pipe?
yes, you got it right. thats ruthenium in action.
now imagine yourself shooting at one of those.
good luck.

+12 to hit something that looks just like the wall next to him, is just right.
Deep Blue
Use rockets, not bullets cool.gif
Ghostly Enigma
Umm a perfect reason to have a few grenades handy hell the stuff has a reaction time as well all you have to do is find a way to exploit this off neglected weakness. Ummm this could get interesting smokin.gif
Zazen
QUOTE (BlackSmith)
how perfectly you ask? look the ruthenium point from the book. flip couple pages and there is a picture where an cybered elf and mariner (with cigared in his mouth) are helding guns in a indrustial environment.
see that strange vague figure on that pipe?

You know, I didn't see that sneaky little fucker for years until a friend of mine pointed him out. smile.gif
mfb
zazen, the army surplus camo only adds +1 TN on ranged attacks per +4 TN to perception tests. ergo, ruthenium with 12 scanners should only offer a +3 TN to ranged attacks--or +2, if the character isn't taking care to move slowly (-2 TN to percep test, as noted in the description for ruthenium).

re-read the description. it says, quite clearly, that the TN mod is to attempts to spot the character. it says nothing at all about shooting them, once spotted.
Zazen
QUOTE (mfb)
zazen, the army surplus camo only adds +1 TN on ranged attacks per +4 TN to perception tests. ergo, ruthenium with 12 scanners should only offer a +3 TN to ranged attacks--or +2, if the character isn't taking care to move slowly (-2 TN to percep test, as noted in the description for ruthenium).

CC says that it's +2 for a moving camo-wearer, with no mention of what happens when stationary. The Camouflage spell "colors the subject in a camouflage pattern that mimics his or her surroundings", which gives a +4 to both see and shoot the wearer. Ruthenium doesn't make it harder to shoot the wearer at all.

These rules are all inconsistent with each other. One gives unequal bonuses, one gives identical bonuses, and one completely ignores the ranged bonus. Now you can leave them that way or you can create consistency by choosing a single trend to follow. I've chosen the one I feel is simplest to implement: make the ranged mod the same as the perception mod. It has the added effect of reducing fatalities and encouraging more tactical use of vision-related stuff (people want thermo and ultrasound, then they want US-fooling equipment and thermal dampening, then they want HF hearing to get the other guys using US, etc. etc. I love that kind of shit).

QUOTE
re-read the description. it says, quite clearly, that the TN mod is to attempts to spot the character. it says nothing at all about shooting them, once spotted.


Yes, I'm quite aware of that. nyahnyah.gif
mfb
huh. i don't know where i got that +1 / +4 from.

that said, it's still insane to apply the full ruthenium mod as a TN mod. i mean, jesus christ, no one would ever leave home without it.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (BlackSmith)
hey look at the sheer numbers and think a bit.
first you got around ~20 TN to see the target but if you got enough success (now he rised the successes needed from one to three. wow!)

Actually HE didn't the RULES did.

QUOTE ( "pg 232 SR3)


1 Success.  Something is there 
("there" being general area if you look at the next line)

2 Success's. Something is definitely there, and the perceiver suspects what general type of thing 
(general type could be anything from "mammal"  to "meta human")

3 Success's.  The perceiver knows what type of thing it is and suspects it's exact nature.  (It's a metahuman in Ruthenium, and you think you see a gun)

4+ Success's. The Perceriver knows what it is, but has no specifics without further information or examination.


If you only need "1 Success" then why the need for the other entries?

I would also ask you to look at the rules/ discription of a Success test (which is what your perfroming when try to look for a stealthy git (with or without Ruthenium).

look through out all the rules. 2-3 Success's is always a more "complete" success. Take a look at any ettiquette success test, or information gathering test or even a pistols success test (if you read between the lines).

Yet your saying one success is all you need.

How often do your characters get spotted by guards? cos if there only needing 1 success it would be a lot more then even my Otaku (bless her dirty cotton socks).

Though to play devils advocate here, i think there should be a to hit penalty but to do so IS a house rule. Perhaps +4 (-1 per success on the perception test) no called shots allowed. but thats totally of the cuff/ out of my arse.
Zazen
QUOTE (mfb)
that said, it's still insane to apply the full ruthenium mod as a TN mod. i mean, jesus christ, no one would ever leave home without it.

Yeah, it's powerful. It's also expensive and in my games quite delicate. It not only needs to be repaired after attacks (even fully resisted ones), but also when the character is forcibly knocked down onto a rough surface. That makes it impractical for everyday use by the more combat-oriented types.
The White Dwarf
Important Thought:

You do realize that its only to visual tests in the sense of how we really percieve right? Like themal, ultrasound, astral perception, etc will all get around most of this mod.

And how many times are you really dealing with people that can only see normally, when using runners that can afford the ~200k a pop a 12 scanner ruethenium suit would run... I mean the imaging goggles work with smartlink goggles on guards and cost a fraction of the technology they defeat.

Ruethenium is powerful and useful, in its place. Like most things in SR if left unchecked its huge but its not hard to check.

As to blindfire, well +8 tn is fine, since they cant use any targeting mods. I mean smartlink is pointless if theres nothing to target right? So that +8 is a bit weightier than it may seem.

Plus you could always opt to use suppressive fire on the area you suspect someone is in, and force them to make dodge tests without even seeing them, bypassing the whole shooting test altogether... but hey you were talking about how the tn mods compared and not what was actually effective right.
Jason Farlander
Thanks Shockwave, people often seem to fail to distinguish between presentations of personal views and presentations of canon rules.

As far as houseruling goes, since none of the particilarly vocal posters on this thread seem to find the canon rules to be adequate, how about this set of rules concerning visual TN mods:

-camouflage and ruthenium TN modifications are not stealth mods, but, rather, visibility mods

-all visibility mods stack for determining the TN for vision-based perception tests

-at least one success on a perception test is required to engage any target in ranged combat. If that success does not include visibility mods (ie, is a success based on some other sense), the attacker must default to the +8 for blind fire until he or she succeeds on a vision-based perception test

-all TN modifications to visibility carry over as TN modifications to ranged combat, but any visibility TN mod greater than +8 is reduced to +8 in the transfer. This includes stacked visibility conditions (such as minimal light +ruthenium) because it is impossible to have a greater vision-based impact on accuracy than not being able to see the target at all.

-if the attacker achieved multiple successes on his perception test, the total, stacked visibility mod is divided by the number of successes (round down). This becomes the new TN mod for ranged combat for that attacker.

This models the fact that highly perceptive gunslingers will have an edge in poor visibility over their INT 2 friends, while granting ruthenium a bonus in ranged combat and following the lead of how other success tests modify things (such as how multiple successes on a b/r test reduce base time). Basically, the clarity with which you see a target probably should determine how easy it is for you to hit that target, and this house rule models that.
Moon-Hawk
I will agree that according to the Ruthenium description, it only modifies perception tests. However, I'm fairly certain that there was a passage in the main book somewhere that stated that all visibility/perception mods are added to combat rolls. Unfortunately, I'm not certain that it is explicitly stated in third edition, as it could've just as easily been from first or second and I'm just taking it for granted.

I also feel that it's fairly obvious that there should be some modifiers to hit someone who is nearly perfectly camoflaged. Even if this is not explicitly stated in the description of ruthenium, the designers of SR (unlike the designers of, say, D&D), assume that we're not completely lobotomized. Of course, the DEGREE of penalty is still certainly up for debate.

I continue to use the ruthenium penalty (up to +cool.gif if the targeter is primarily visual. If they switch to some other targeting system, I switch to the appropriate penalty.

As another question: What is the effect of ruthenium on the signature of a target? Metahumans are signature 8, in SR3, yes? I think it was 6 for humans and 5 for trolls in SR2, but I digress... Any vehicle with at least sensors 2 has thermo, and so would take, at worst, the half penalty, but due to other vehicle sensors, would it be even that much, or would it be less?
sidartha
In the description of rumthenium it says that any fast moving object coated in runthenium is easier to see because of the rapidly shifting colors.
once you start using skills that require rapid movement(melee or ranged combat, dodge tests, use of athletics or combat pool) you suddenly have a -1 to all tests to notice the player.
Moon-Hawk
Right. I forget exactly what the penalty is, relative to m/s, but I assign significant penalties to characters trying to fight (particularly melee) wearing ruthenium.
Like I said, I forgot the exact numbers, but if there are penalties to someone walking fast or running they'll be pretty nasty for a thrown punch, which goes much faster.
The White Dwarf
The speed limit of ruethenium is 2m/s, which is what a quickness 6 runner achives via the "walk" movment option in a single combat turn. The catch is that his arms are probably moving faster, aiming a gun and such. Also, the muzzle flash isnt concealed at the very least.

A full ruethenium suit adds +12 to visual perception only. Against thermographic. ultrasound, sensors, etc it drops to +6. If the runner is in combat, its probably going to be +5 or less.

Blindfire is +8, full ruethenium is +5 at best here. The spell is +4, and camoflauge is +2. Not really seeing the problem here, for 200k a runner can go from +3ish to +5ish to the opponents tn to shoot him. Expensive, but an improvment.

Like a lot of things in SR ruethenium seems really powerful on paper (+12) but when you consider the cost to obtain, and the targets one with that kinda cash would likley be running, its really not that bad.

Its just bad if a GM isnt on top of things and leaves it unchecked, and the runners somehow convince him to add both the +12 and the blindfire mod to hit them and become invincible and then he posts here how its all broken... or something.
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