I'm pretty much a newbie and feel free to tell me as much. I was trying to figure out a way i could combat spirits or astral entities with a sword, am i understanding the rules correctly that a mundane (Troll gun bunny/blade freak) could not use any weapon type that is able to hit spirits and the like. I can pretty much decimate any fleshies and my real problem would be free spirits and mage types being able to smoke me. Mages are simple enough to frag but any spirits or stuff my vibroblade sword or assault rifles cant touch are going to be an issue. Our current group has no regular mage to combat these types of things.

My first idea was a claymore or large katana either with a orichalcum core, alloyed with steel or veined with it but the problem i found out is it isn't dual natured. And as a mundane i cannot use a weapon focus right? What can i work with here? Also would my pimped out betaware cybereyes be able to sniff out a non-manifested spirit with the ultrasound?

Sorry if this sounds dumb, probably because it is.

-Vic

Yeah, spirits are very difficult to take out without magic. Your best bet is to use a high damage weapon and/or something with a good AP value so they aren't immune to your weapons. An no, there is no mundane way to find a non-manifested spirit. The closest you can get are a handful of things that scream or glow or other things (In arsenal and street magic I think) when astral bodies pass through them. There are also a handful of drugs that allow mundanes to astrally preceieve, but that doesn't let them affect the spirit with a sword, so that doesn't help much, and if anything just makes them more vulnerable.

Sorry if that isn't clear, have to run so writing this quick.

Not dumb. Valid questions all.
You are correct in that mundane (non-awakened) devices and entities have little recourse for anything on the astral plane. The astral and the material planes need a bridge of some kind, otherwise they don't overlap.
A manifested spirit can be affected by your guns/swords/etc but the spirit benefits from protection against them. Mechanically this gives them hardened armor equal to twice their force, so be prepared to break out the heavy artillery for stronger spirits.
EDIT: Also, weapons with an elemental effect such as electricity or fire are very effective against spirits.
You might check Running Wild and Arsenal for Awakened plants/animals/concoctions that you can use to your benefit against astral entities, but shy of acquiring an artifact or having someone possess your sword for you I don't think dual natured weapons are a real possibility.

Ahh ok. Well that fixes what i have been banging my head off of for a while now then.

So how about getting a custom blade made that is partially infused with orichalcum then possessed? What problems could this pose for my character aside from most likely costing a pretty penny?

If you care for my 2 nuyens on the mater. Get a mage in the group or an Adept with killing hands and astral perception. The only thing a mundane can efectively do against a spirit is sit down on a corner and cry, seriously...

Actually we found that anti-vehicle rockets work pretty well.....


It is a bit hard on the furniture.

Oh APDS rounds in an Assault Rifle work. Stick-n-Shock can see you through, even Tasers. Won't lie, they're tough, but not totally invincible.

Yeah, unless they can manage assault cannon levels of damage with their mundane weapons. I think that with your standard assault rifle loaded with ex-ex rounds (7P/-2) you would need at least 4 net hits to be able to damage a force 6 spirit. Alternately you could load up with APDS (6P/-5) and then you would only need 2 net hits to damage the spirit. A wide burst would lower the dice that a spirit can defend with, so that could help getting those net hits.

So, it is quite possible to damage most spirits you'll run into (Rarely are you facing down something higher than force 6) but it can be a pain. The biggest problem of course being that you can't affect the thing at all if it isn't materialized (Though it can't do anything to you either)

I find the most effective way for a mundane to combat spirits is with attacks of will (sorry I don't have the reference in SR4A or Street Magic). The best way as a mundane to increase the effectiveness of your attacks of will is to learn Tai Chi and take the Attack of Will feat associated with Tai Chi. As a Troll Gun bunny you will always do more damage to non-magical entities but that is to be expected (it's called game balancing). In short become friends with an uber conjurer and have him/her watch your back for spirits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC you can only attack spirits with items connected to your essence (ie melee weapons, and maybe whips). But ranged weapons like firearms are completely useless (along with stick and shock ammo).
I'm still on the fence about teasers (as you could argue that it is connected to your essence via the connected cord) though.

I think the game logic behind it is that your not physically damaging the spirit with your sword, your force of will, channelled through the sword is what is damaging the spirit. Once a bullet leaves the firearm, it leaves your aura and is no longer channelling your will and thus can't damage the spirit.

Well, weapon foci (enchanted weapons) work great against spirits, but only awakened can use them. In the hands of a mundane they are just expensive melee weapons. Short of using something like FAB III(which is nasty controlled stuff), there is no weapon a mundane can use that will harm astral entities. Even dual natured swords/bullets won't work because physics don't exist in the astral plane, objects have no kinetic energy in the astral so they would do no damage no matter how hard you swing them. Short of spells, in order to harm an astral entity you need the astral combat skill, which mundanes can't learn. And even if you could hurt them with awakened melee weapons(which you can't), remember that astral entities can fly really, really, fast.

As mentioned above, if the spirit is manifested, your best bet is to use something with high armor penetration, such as something with an elemental property. Flamethrowers and stick-n-shock ammo do wonders agienst spirits, though anything above force 6 will likely be impossible for a mundane to take down unless they get really lucky.

I believe that is in reference to a mage/adept/duel natured thing being able to damage a spirit while it is on the astral plane. (Via the use of astral combat)

Another thing to remember, with the exception of a free spirit, when you cap the mage it goes bye bye. Another thing to consider, is that most spirits aren't terribly observant. Unless you are being targetted specifically (ie astral signature or something such) the spirit needs to find you first. So if you see the mage, cap him first. It is my belief that mages should draw instant overwhelmingly lethal attention as soon as they are identified, the same as you would treat the guy in a chem suit carrying a grenade launcher, someone with a heavy weapon, or a troll with a sword. If you don't see a mage, but the spirit manifests, you need to identify its controller asap. but being sneaky might serve to help you hide from the spirit in the first place, and give you some extra time. That being said, I routinely kill spirits force 6 and less with an Echiro Hatamot loaded with slogs. Monofilament whip is nice too. You really need to get the damage up to double its force. You can do that by called shot (reduce your dice pool to increase damage), or get lots of net hits.

It's also very clear that no ranged weapons work in the astral plane, period. Tasers are ranged, so no dice.

A mundane and an astral being will never come into conflict, and can never touch each other. This makes his question pointless in astral space. In the material plane however, spirits sometimes manifest. When they join our reality, they become (somewhat) vulnerable to normal weapons. In this case, you can attack them with anything. Most of them possess immunity to normal weapons, and it requires massive amounts of damage to bypass. This is usually twice the spirit's force rating. A force 5 spirit basically ignores damage less than 10dv. You can stage damage up, or reduce their armor to help in this. Tasers, flamers, monfilament, or other attack types that halve the armor halve the physical resistance.

Though I suggested it, it isn't a practical solution for a solidly mundane team.

You would need to have really good relationship with a possession-tradition magician who binds spirits to your weapon and grants you verbal command of the spirit. Street Magic has some guidelines for how much a magician's services would cost, but this might be out of that standard spectrum.
A normal materializing spirit on astral overwatch of you would also suffice, but be again expensive and require loaned services from a summoner.

Ok, ordering some anti-tank missiles for my launcher then.

Although that isn't something i have with me at all times for obvious reasons. I guess i can always run away crying like a little troll baby.

edit: Thanks for all the help gents and ladies. Any more input would be welcomed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ain't a spirit capable of manifesting again if his physical body is destroyed? I believe there is a cooldown associated, but it ain't very long (or am I mixing scenarios?)

If it is 'destroyed' while manifested it is basically gone for all purposes you as a runner really care about. I think it is actually banished to its home plane and has to stay there a month or so, but that isn't a big deal to you.

A spirit who's materialized form is destroyed is disrupted. Disrupted spirits cannot return to the gaiasphere for 28-Force days.

Vic, it's just some math, to determine how much damage you can do.

Spirit: Immunity to normal weapons, which means you have to do twice as much damage as its force, or you don't hurt it at all. Take your weapon's base damage (don't count bonuses for autofire), add your net hits, and apply AP. Do you beat it? I thought so. Okay, now it gets dice equal to triple its force (plus its BOD modifier) to soak the damage. Not so good, but you're bound to at least scratch it. Now do it again. And again.

My troll does fine against F5 spirits, F6 are tough but doable. That's melee. His LMG with APDS wastes them all pretty quickly.

They get triple force for their armor? I guess I need to read over spirits again, that can be a ton of soak dice.

No, they don't have 3xForce hardened armor, but as usual they soak damages with Armor (2xForce) + Body (approximatively 1xForce) -> 3xForce dices.

That's kinda what I thought, but wind_in_the_stones said 3xF+B Maybe she meant 3xF because you include B

I find the Defiance EX-Shocker (modified for SA) works very well for most spirits. 8 damage and halving armor means every hit gets through the hardened armor on anything less than Force 9. With called shots for extra damage, you can even make the F12 spirits feel every hit (though they can still take a lot of punishment).

No, she said 3xForce + Body modifier, which is actually the same thing as 2xForce + Body.

Silly words and their meanings

Remember, though, that any AP also reduces the amount of armor dice the spirit rolls for its resistance test. In other words, if the sammie shoots a spirit with a heavy pistol using EX Explosive rounds, the spirit will have 2 less dice for its resistance test (1 for the gun's AP, 1 for the ammo's AP).


Vic, do you have Runner's Companion? Because a Fomori troll who takes SURGE and gets Astral Hazing as a negative quality is very effective against mages and spirits.

Yeah, i didn't use it as a resource when creating my troll though. I am satisfied with him though other than having the issues with magic/spirits. Hes big and scary with gene freak, red chromed teeth, horns, partially exposed skull, jawbone and protective cybereye covers. Pretty much anything lighter than heavy artillery he can shrug off or dodge. It's only been about four runs but two got pretty hairy and he hasn't even bled yet (taken a couple boxes of stun). But i suppose I'm going to need some way to die, my GM is having fun trying to find a way to hurt me.

If he bites the dust i can always look into theory crafting something with a little more versatility towards magic and spirits.

An outside the box solution, could be a unique enchantment. Street Magic has an example of a weapon focus that doesn't need to be bound. It would be tricky and would require a lot of work with your GM and maybe a friendly mage. (You could also do extensive research and setup a run of your own to steal it from someone who already has one.)

Just a thought...

Nodachi + Strength 8 Troll kills everything up to F5.

If you were able to find a mage willing to perform such a procedure, couldn't you get a weapon with a Quickened spell applied? Say, Slay Spirits?

Set the Sword on Fire.
Elemental Damage.
Presto, Halved Armor.
Also, Weapon-Focus with long thin thread connected to mage but swung by troll.

I wasn't too clear. You are correct that it's body plus double armor. Body is Force plus modifier, like F+2 for a beast spirit. so I meant triple for plus body modifier.

Vic, I think you're reasonably safe against spirits. It sounds like your troll is pretty badass, and I don't think your enemies should have the resources to throw a F8 spirit at you.

What you're vulnerable against, is magical powers and spells. There are few things you can do about that. One, raise your willpower. Two, see if you can get the Magic Resistance quality. Three, stay close to the mage. Trolls and mages can have a symbiotic relationship. They're both high-profile targets, so they can keep each other alive. Trolls can act as living bullet barriers, and mages can offer spell defense. Don't leave your mage unattended.

A while back, we were playing a very nuyen-rich campaign, and our mage ran out of things he could spend his cash on. The samurai were busy jamming bioware in their bodies, and upgrading it, so he started handing us his excess cash. Not only did we keep a closer eye on him, but that gave the entire team a better chance of success. His excess cas was an unused resource.

Yeah, problem is no mage at the moment. A couple are "supposed" to start showing up but at the moment were without one. I will definitely soak up any bullets for one when we do get one. I guess in the mean time if it looks like were gonna be butting heads with magic i guess we can hire some NPC.

edit: So far I've only wasted Karma on specializations but i suppose ill build it up to raise willpower and get the quality.

Keep in mind that Body is only equal to force if the spirit is on the Astral Plane... Once materialized, it could be more or less than force of the spirit...

And don't forget that AP reduces the amount of armor dice a spirit gets to apply against the damage...