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moosegod
I have DotSW and know the stuff therein.

Is there anything else? I'd think a dragon, especially a great, competing with Lofwyr would have showed up elsewhere.
FlakJacket
I'm not sure, but I think that may have come up in some of the older German language FanPro sourcebooks. And with their taking over and things being combined, it gets grandfathered in as it were.
Ancient History
's in the German sourcebooks. I get questions/corrections about it now and then. See especially "Shockwaves."
Synner
The thing to remember is that no matter what American shadowrunners would like to think, Lofwyr's powerbase is Europe not America (and Nachtmeister even more so) and in fact they are only ever exposed to the fringes of his influence and plots - afterall Seattle is almost on the other side of the world. While there are still 24-hour media channels around, the sort of shadowdeals these dragons get involved in aren't common knowledge and their involvement is often filtered by layers of deniability anyway (especially if it's everyday runs and blackops). Distance is still a barrier to information no matter what anyone says because there is an unconcious filter in any media that prioritizes on what will affect you locally, this becomes doubly relevant when you're dealing with inherently secretive critters like Great Dragons. Think about it - what did you actually know about Lung, Aden or Hualpa for that matter before DotSW?

That being said, Nachtmeister did make an appearance and was profiled in the book (in English language) that introduced the AGS - the Germany sourcebook - where his ongoing quarrel with Lofwyr over control of certain parts of Germany's economy and states was introduced in the Frankfurt chapter as well as his control of Germany's second biggest corp, the Frankfurt Bankenverein (This was in fact a condensed version of the material in the original German-language DidS sb).

Nachtmeister and the conflict would continue to be revisited (briefly) by German writers in both sourcebooks and novels. In English language books you can go back and find mentions of the FBV/FBA (or Frankfurt Bank Association) in such unlikely places as Target: Smuggler Havens and Target: Wastelands so it's nothing truly new. Its suggested in at least one of those books that Nachtmeister had some sort of involvement with Proteus AG too (although the true depths of this is only revealed in Shockwaves). Not to mention the suggestion in DotSW that Nachtmeister might have misused a familiar title in PoaD .

However, German material definitely had tensions escalating between the two during the CorpWar (nobody wondered why Lofwyr wasn't around on the American scene during the CorpWar?) and eventually led to the "Lofwyr 1 - Nachtmeister 0" chapter of DidS2 a couple of years back. In that book, Lofwyr called out Nachtmeister for a full dragon ritual duel-to-the-death in the skies over Frankfurt (it's actually on the cover of the book IIRC). The long fight ended with Lofwyr's victory and Nachtmeister's demise. Strangely enough, as you will find in DotSW a lot of the tridbroadcasts of the fight coming out of Germany were jammed or corrupted...

While the fight was never covered in any depth in FanPro US canon, it had to be referenced because of the importance it has on Lofwyr, his plots and his foes - not to mention the unexpected Shockwaves which are felt. In Lofwyr's chapter of DotSW you should get an idea of why Lofwyr uncharacteristically decided to make the fight so public and remove Nachtmeister once and for all - ie. he'd begun to discover the true extent of Nachtmeister's alliance with Widow and Weaver, and the allies plans to undermine his next big move... (more on that soon)

Regardless of that particular plot thread, the end result was that Nachtmeister's demise left a huge vacuum at the top of Germany's Number 2 corp - the FBA. This is where the German campaign Shockwaves takes off. Proteus AG - for unknown reasons - makes a grab for control of the FBA... and learns the hard way that Nachtmeister was every bit as cunning as Lofwyr.
Skarn Ka
QUOTE
ie. he'd begun to discover the true extent of Nachtmeister's alliance with Widow and Weaver, and the allies plans to undermine his next big move... (more on that soon)


Soon biggrin.gif
252
Wow, and that is so cool. I have to learn German, I got to figure out how to read some of this stuff. This is just so cool.


As stated before:

WOW.

Is that enough said. Please tell us more Synner?
Kanada Ten
I wonder about the relationship between Widow and Nachtmeister. They die almost at the same moment, which points to three main possibilities.

One: Widow watched the battle (somehow) and emotion led to over stimulation.

Two: Lofwyr had her killed, and did it symbolically at the same time he killed Nachtmeister.

Three (and the more interesting): Widow and Nachtmeister had some kind of bond. The bond might have allowed Lofwyr to strike Widow through Nachtmeister, it allowed shared <knowledge> with a negative effect of death be severing, or it was keeping Widow alive.

I like option 3 with the latter. I would also have a symbolic "chain" item that linked them... one that the PC's have to retrieve... hummm...
Synner
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

One: Widow watched the battle (somehow) and emotion led to over stimulation.


Well, Mina was somewhere in her 90's, an overemotional reaction to the public destruction of years and years of well-laid plans.

QUOTE
Two: Lofwyr had her killed, and did it symbolically at the same time he killed Nachtmeister.

That's one interesting possibility although I'd point out that:
a) she didn't die right away
b) her death brings further complications
c) her location makes her assassination extremely hard (but not impossible)

QUOTE
Three (and the more interesting): Widow and Nachtmeister had some kind of bond. The bond might have allowed Lofwyr to strike Widow through Nachtmeister, it allowed shared <knowledge> with a negative effect of death be severing, or it was keeping Widow alive.

The only reason I wouldn't use this option personally, is that I intended to show that Mina was at least Nachtmeister's equal in the conspiracy and that a human (a immensely rich, devious and powerful human) could out maneuver and harm a dragon if need be. Tying her to Nachtmeister's power as a GD almost certainly places her under his influence which is something some people may find an interesting proposition.

However the fact that their group's agenda survives them both does indicate that there was a relative independence between members and of course you still don't know who the other members are besides Nachtmeister, Mina and Johnny...

QUOTE
I like option 3 with the latter. I would also have a symbolic "chain" item that linked them... one that the PC's have to retrieve... hummm...

That's a nice and twisted idea... poor runners.

252- I do have an entire campaign mapped out(with the help of some friends) for the follow through of the Lofwyr conspiracy which I might pitch depending on the reception SoE gets - since the backdrop is Europe and the Grand Tour rather than North Am - and which would tie in to (read: introduce) events in German-language books
Kanada Ten
Johnny certainly thinks (or hopes) someone "friendly" will get control of the Frankfurter Bankverein (FBV) before the dust settles (if I read "Weaves" Shadowtalk comment correctly). We can hope SoE mentions who rises to the top and sort out their connections as need be.

One thing I noticed is the Proteus has a tentative link to Winternight (Wake of the Comet)... which might put Natchmeister's agents among them... but doesn't Alamais have links to Winternight? Which might put Alamais in the camp too - but that could just be a red herring.

Also, put down Victoria Zai (Meynt-Zai Industries) as my choice for a member. No good reason wink.gif
shadd4d
QUOTE (252)
Wow, and that is so cool. I have to learn German, I got to figure out how to read some of this stuff. This is just so cool.


As stated before:

WOW.

Is that enough said. Please tell us more Synner?

The fight is pretty cool and covered in Deutschland in den Schatten II. It takes the form of a trideo broadcast that filmed the fight and Nachtmeister's demise.

@Synner: As I'm currently in Germany, I'm debatting picking up Schockwellen. Is it worth it for American players, as I'm going to have to translate a lot for others who don't speak German. Where can I get more info on Proteus, outside of the Germany sourcebooks?

Don
Synner
The only significant English language material on Proteus can be found (strangely enough) in Target: Smuggler Havens. There is also incidental but interesting material in the adventures in Wake of the Comet and Corporate Punishment.

Shockwaves is definitely worth the effort - it's a very cool campaign which blows the lid off Proteus and explains what the heck's been going on behind the scenes at that corp for years (and answers that mysterious question: what the hell does it do to make money?). If you have the time and patience to do the work I honestly suggest getting it.

And just to plug another FanPro product, Shockwaves has a couple of chapters which take place in Europe but outside the AGS. The upcoming Shadows of Europe will be useful to provide further context (and at least one major "shockwave" from the events in the campaign carries through).
shadd4d
QUOTE (Synner)
The only significant English language material on Proteus can be found (strangely enough) in Target: Smuggler Havens. There is also incidental but interesting material in the adventures in Wake of the Comet and Corporate Punishment.

Shockwaves is definitely worth the effort - it's a very cool campaign which blows the lid off Proteus and explains what the heck's been going on behind the scenes at that corp for years (and answers that mysterious question: what the hell does it do to make money?). If you have the time and patience to do the work I honestly suggest getting it.

And just to plug another FanPro product, Shockwaves has a couple of chapters which take place in Europe but outside the AGS. The upcoming Shadows of Europe will be useful to provide further context (and at least one major "shockwave" from the events in the campaign carries through).

There is a little mention in M&M about nanotech or something of that nature. Haven't seen my books in about a 1.5 years, so I'm a tad rusty. It a listing of the companies that are ahead in certain fields and Proteus shows up. I want to say nanotech but for the life of me I'm not sure. It's in conjunction with Yamatesu.

Don
Synner
You are correct Proteus does get a mention in M&M in both Genetech and Chemicals. However all of the ones I quoted above are larger than those single passages.
mfb
to sum up, Proteus is building arcoblocks. they tried for the prize in Dunk's will, but someone clearly forgot to RTFM--the will clearly states "completely underwater", and all of the arcoblocks have above-water portions.

meetings. because none of us is as stupid as all of us.
L.D
The claim for the will was just a big smokescreen to draw away attention from the space launch pad taht they where building off the cost of South America. But not only the launch pad, they were using the pad to build Treffpunkt Raumhafen Space Station located at LaGrange point one.

Edit: Am I the only one annoyed (to say the least) that all information about this mysterious corporation can only be found in German made sourcebooks? *mutters* Not only to they get all of that ED-SR trilogy novels, but those Germans get a lot more cool stuff that we don't! *mutters* Maybe I should just learn that stupid language...
shadd4d
Probably. Then you too can read and understand the Fanpro Forums.

Don
shadd4d
QUOTE (mfb)
to sum up, Proteus is building arcoblocks. they tried for the prize in Dunk's will, but someone clearly forgot to RTFM--the will clearly states "completely underwater", and all of the arcoblocks have above-water portions.

meetings. because none of us is as stupid as all of us.

Actually, Schockwellen explains this one nicely. The reason is two-fold. L.D. hit part of it on the head. But ask yourself this: how did Yametetsu come up with the technology to build their underwater arcologies? That's another reason which is revealed in Schockwellen.

Don
Synner
Nice twist wasn't it? And that's only the proverbial tip of the arcology...
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (L.D @ Apr 11 2004, 08:07 AM)

Edit: Am I the only one annoyed (to say the least) that all information about this mysterious corporation can only be found in German made sourcebooks? *mutters* Not only to they get all of that ED-SR trilogy novels, but those Germans get a lot more cool stuff that we don't! *mutters* Maybe I should just learn that stupid language...


Stupid language ? Wow.
But don't worry, we've got the whole SR-ED trilogy in French too, so you may try another stupid language wink.gif
I'm currently running Schockwellen, and honnestly it's worth the effort. With a little work you can enhance it into a full-fledged financial intrigue (Nath ?) where the far-fetching ramifications are slowly uncovered by the players.
Plus the GM isn"t spoilt of the fun, since he's only one step ahead of his players and discovers the plot that unfolds one chapter after the other, unless he reads the final part that reveals it all.
I kind of suck big time in German, but I managed it with a hardcore motivation and a dictionnary at hand. Since German is probably harder to get at for French people than for you all English-speaking folks, if you're motivated and have some spare time you'll probably make it.
L.D
Meh... forgot the joke-smilie. smile.gif

Joy... another stoopid language to learn... one that I almost knew ten years ago. What's wrong with english! Or even better: swedish. biggrin.gif wink.gif

My problem isn't with the languages themsleves, but rather that I don't understand them.

But it still feels like the germans (or rather the german speaking crowd) get a much better deal. (except for those novels in french...)

*walks away muttering swedish curses*

*walks back*
@Synner(and others that know) Is it possible to get the most important parts of Shockwellen in english somehow? I'd love that. biggrin.gif
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (L.D)

@Synner(and others that know) Is it possible to get the most important parts of Shockwellen in english somehow? I'd love that. biggrin.gif

AFAIK people have thought about it, from putting a synopsis of the campaign in a future book to uploading it on the website.
I don't know what's up with the idea. Half a dozen people have already asked me about it.
I'd have no problem with sharing some knowledge (after all, there's a thread on DSF for English products, so why not for German ones ?)
I'll drop a word to a few people to see what's feasible. The problem right now is that events in SW go as far as August 63, while SoE is set just before that (events may overlap).
So you're probably not going to have anything go public on SW before SoE has been out for some time.
Ancient History
I do have one question: when Nachtmeister dissapeared after his draco-a-draco avec Lofwyr, were there any signs of Nachtmeister's actual death?

Such as, but not limited to:

--A corpse

--Lofwyr using his dragon breath to reduce Nachtmesiter to ash

--A flight of dragons over the spot Nachtmeister fell

--increased shadow activity around Nachtmeister's holdings, besides Lofwyr's.
Synner
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 4 2004, 06:36 PM)
I do have one question: when Nachtmeister dissapeared after his draco-a-draco avec Lofwyr, were there any signs of Nachtmeister's actual death?

Such as, but not limited to:
--A corpse

Unknown. Saeder-Krupp military cordonned off the area.

QUOTE
--Lofwyr using his dragon breath to reduce Nachtmesiter to ash

Unknown. IIRC Lofwyr landed in the area he fell but left soon thereafter.

QUOTE
--A flight of dragons over the spot Nachtmeister fell

Nope. Then again he wasn't a very social person and didn't make a lot of friends...

QUOTE
--increased shadow activity around Nachtmeister's holdings, besides Lofwyr's.

Yes. By a bunch of different players. This eventually leads to Proteus' play to take over the Frankfurt Bank Association (which was Nachtmeister's main corporate front) which backfires phenomenally and sets off "Shockwaves". Note that the new CEO of the FBV was apparently named in a Will that Nachtmeister left...
FlakJacket
Will? Seems that Dunkie was quite the trend setter. smile.gif
Nath
Still, the existence of a will would be quite incoherent when you consider how Nachtmeister reacted to Dunkelzahn's own will with his flame posting on Shadowland under the login Loremaster (in PoaD).
Kanada Ten
That was Nachtmeister? I thought it was Alamaise for some reason. Maybe he just meant keeping the Dragon things (Jewel of Memory) separate from the Human things (Corporate Stock). Of course it could also mean that someone else wrote the will or that Beloit (sp?) convinced him otherwise.
FlakJacket
Possible funny business?
Synner
Yes, it would wouldn't it? So you have to wonder how Monika Stueler-Waffenschmidt pulled it off... and with who's help? Puts one of Johnny's comments in a whole new perspective, huh? :evil:

QUOTE
That was Nachtmeister?  I thought it was Alamaise for some reason.  Maybe he just meant keeping the Dragon things (Jewel of Memory) separate from the Human things (Corporate Stock).  Of course it could also mean that someone else wrote the will or that Beloit (sp?) convinced him otherwise.

Yep. I know a lot of people missed it (and a lot of other small stuff) but Nachtmeister was fingered as "Loremaster" in Lofwyr's DotSW chapter (the way Hestaby addresses Loremaster in the exchange in PoaD is inconsistent with any of the active greats at the time - the comment about coming out of his cave - however, does fit rather well for Nachtmeister who has a penchant for shadowplays and remaining behind the scenes as "Shockwaves" proves).
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (Synner)
Note that the new CEO of the FBV was apparently named in a Will that Nachtmeister left...

I'd second Nath here and rather say there wasn't a will at all.
That's the reason why MSW had to wait for *months* before she could call the 86.3% shares belonging to NM hers. NM falls in June 62 (btw he's officially dead as of SotF and SW), MSW makes her official statement as the new owner of the Bankenverein in December (exactly 6 months after the dogfight). There's a major struggle at the head of the FBV for months between NM's demise and MSW's official statement.
In the campaign's intro it's clearly stated that in June she's puzzled, and must send her deckers into a hell of a data-mining in the FBV's databanks to retrieve the shares. Also *she* sees herself as NM's natural heir and isn't willing to let anyone within the FBV threaten her rise.

I must be careful not to reveal too much of this since I suspect my players are lurking aroud this thread... eek.gif
Cochise
QUOTE (Ancient History)
I do have one question: when Nachtmeister dissapeared after his draco-a-draco avec Lofwyr, were there any signs of Nachtmeister's actual death?

In addition to what Synner already said, there seems to be a similar astral rift as the Dunkelzahn Rift at DC (though smaller in size) at the place where Nachtmeister died ...
Ancient History
Honto? That is odd. I wonder what Nachtmeister was up to?
Cochise
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Honto? That is odd. I wonder what Nachtmeister was up to?

Nothing special I guess, since the whole incidence was planned by Lofwyr (the helicopter attack on him is said to have been staged by himself). I guess that the author wanted to suggest that the death of a great dragon always leaves major traces on both the astral and the physical plane when brute force is involved (be it a bomb or another dragon) ...
Ancient History
Maybe, but realistically it would mean some big mojo went down.
Skarn Ka
QUOTE (Cochise)

In addition to what Synner already said, there seems to be a similar astral rift as the Dunkelzahn Rift at DC (though smaller in size) at the place where Nachtmeister died ...


Quote ?
Cochise
QUOTE (Skarn Ka)
QUOTE (Cochise @ Jun 7 2004, 08:58 AM)

In addition to what Synner already said, there seems to be a similar astral rift as the Dunkelzahn Rift at DC (though smaller in size) at the place where Nachtmeister died ...


Quote ?

Maybe later tonight ... I'm currently out of reach of my books ...
Cochise
O.k. here the references:

Shadowtalk on p. 343 Deutschland in den Schatten II

QUOTE

>>Hermetisch trifft es in doppeltem Sinn. Die magische Sicherheit in der Umgebung ist unglaublich. Ein Kollege wollte sich die Gegend kurz nach dem "Unfall" mal ansehen - wann bekommt man schonmal die Aura eines sterbenden Großdrachen zu sehen?
Er hat sich kaum auf den Weg gemacht, da lief ihm schon die Soße aus den Ohren. Exitus. Mittlerweile habe ich mir das Ganze mal aus der Ferne angesehen, und selbst von weitem ist es beeindruckend: Der Astralraum ist verzerrt - sowas ha ich noch nie gesehen. Jedenfalls nicht in diesem Ausmaß.<<

- Enigma

>>Trotzdem ist es nicht vergleichbar mit dem Watergate Rift, den Dunkelzahn hinterlassen hat. Er ist anders, und auch um einige Grade schwächer. Näheres kann ich nicht sagen, solange ich mir das nicht aus der Nähe ansehen darf.<<

- Der Pragmagiker


A rough Translation:

>>Hermetically hits the nail in not just one way. The magical security in that area is unbelievable. A collegue of mine wanted to take a look shortly after the "accident" - when do you get to see the aura of a dying great dragon?
He just headed out, when his brains came out of his ears. Exitus. I have taken a look at the place from the distance by now and it was impressive even at that range: The astral space is warped - I've never seen something like this before. At least not to that extend<<

- Enigma

>>However it's still not comparable to the Watergate Rift, that Dunkelzahn left behind. It's different, and weaker by some degree. I cannot say anything more detailed, while I'm not allowed to observe it from closer proximity

-Der Pragmagiker
fistandantilus4.0
Well I know this is an old thread, but I'm interested in getting a copy of Shockwaves and translating it. Any suggestions on how as I'm in the U.S. ? Haven't found any sites yet that offer it for $'s .
hermit
Try Amazon.de. Click here for a link. They deliver worldwide, and (for all I know) they charge no derlivery fee above €20. They also take $, if I rememeber correctly ... and use standard exchange rates, which are relatively low at 1.2 - 1 at the moment, so take advantage of this.

And if you need help, I'm willing to provide it. Hope your group enjoys all the efforts you make for them!

QUOTE
Maybe, but realistically it would mean some big mojo went down.

And THAT, AH, is a German shadowrun book. See, the German setting works like this: if it's anywhere, it's in Germany too. Tir Taingire? Pomorya. New Nobles in Britain? Saxony. Beginning to see the pattern? Since the yanks have their rift, we need one too, because rifts are leet!
Penta
I'd thought they'd gotten over that?
hermit
Supposedly ... but then again, old habits die hard. nyahnyah.gif

Or maybe dying Greats really leave rifts for some time. Who knows, after all. Though, dying *totems*, as in Secrets of Power III, don't, and arguably, they're way higher than dragons in the magical food chain.
Ancient History
QUOTE (hermit)
QUOTE
Maybe, but realistically it would mean some big mojo went down.

And THAT, AH, is a German shadowrun book. See, the German setting works like this: if it's anywhere, it's in Germany too. Tir Taingire? Pomorya. New Nobles in Britain? Saxony. Beginning to see the pattern? Since the yanks have their rift, we need one too, because rifts are leet!

Ah, it's not that bad. Some warping is to be expected-great dragons don't tend to die of natural causes. There's no sign that the big N left a Dunkie-style Rift behind him based on that quote.

I have a problem bitching about Germany, because it's like Seattle...only a little more spread out. indifferent.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Thanks Hermit, my main worry was the currency difference. We also have a player that (used be to at least ) fluent in German, plus I've found an online translator or three, so that should help.
hermit
Eh ... forget online translators, too much gets lost there, especially in a language like German, with it's screwy grammar. You get the general idea though, at least with the new ones. smile.gif

QUOTE
I have a problem bitching about Germany, because it's like Seattle...only a little more spread out.

Well yeah, in size. nyahnyah.gif

SSB cannot be compared to Germany SB, though. that's like comparing Isle of Jura and a vaguely rust-coloured 40% solution of ethanol and toxic waste.
Skarn Ka
I used to translate a redux version of Schockwellen into English (mainly the last chapter that sums up the whole campaign and its ramifications).

I don't know what could be done with that... Do you intend to translate the *whole* fucking book ? In that's the case, you can count on me for some advice and providing you the last chapter.

fistandantilus4.0
yeah pretty much. Or at least what I have the patience for. Basically type it into the translator, then cut/past in WP. We'll see how it goes. Then use my semi-German speaking friend to smooth out the rough spots. He used to be quite fluent, but has been learning spanish the last three years. Only tough part is that he lives in Texas, and , well, I don't. But that's what internet chat's are for I guess.
hermit
You can send me chapters to translate too (I'd prefer English though, not roughly ground garble-German put through a translator; trust me, too much is lost there). I think I'm fluent enough, and should be able to do that in a reasonable amount of time. smile.gif
fistandantilus4.0
sure thing, as soon as I actually get the book. I plan doing it myself, and having my friend work on the same parts, and compare notes basically. A third critical eye can only help (hopefully wink.gif ). It'll probably be a month or so before I'm actually able to get it. But I'll let you know.
hermit
Okay. And good thinking! Editing and second versions of a translation never hurt. smile.gif
LabRat
QUOTE (Penta)
I'd thought they'd gotten over that?


We HAVE gotten over that !!!

But it takes time to clean up former mistakes.

LabRat
hermit
Good to hear. smile.gif
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