Okay maybe I'm just being obtuse and reading too much into this but just how does Dodge work in Shadowrun 4? I won't go any further till I see some answers, and see just how wrong I've gone, or haven't gone.

Whenever there is a ranged attack the target gets to roll his Reaction attribute. If the defender gets more hits than the attacker the attack misses. - That's pretty much it. If you take the Full Defense action you can add your Dodge skill to your Reaction roll but loose your next action.

For a melee attack the target gets to roll their Reaction attribute + Dodge or Melee Weapon skill or Unarmed Combat for the defense. If you take the Full Defense action you can add your Dodge skill on top of what you would normally roll (yes, this means you could roll Reaction + Dodge + Dodge).

If the defender fails their reaction test then you move on to rolling body and armor to soak damage.

Hope that helps.

So much clearer than the book! Thanks a lot.

Ranged Attack Defense: Reaction
Ranged Attack Full Defense: Reaction + Dodge
Melee Attack Defense: Weapon Skill (Parry) + Reaction, Unarmed Combat (Block) + Reaction, Dodge (Dodge) + Reaction
Melee Attack Full Defense: Weapon Skill + Dodge + Reaction, or Dodge x 2 + Reaction

With specialties of course.


EDIT: Sorry, was finishing Glee while typing...

Same as it works in real life; you push the car to get it moving while someone else turns the key in the ignition and hope the motor catches...

Sheesh, it was like Paul never watched Married with Children before...

Sign--

Wacky

Also Gymnastics can fill in for Dodge on most of those combos. Except for melee Dodge+Dodge.

Actually the Full Parry action is REA+Weapon Skill+Weapon Skill. Full Dodge can be either REA+Dodge+Dodge or REA+Weapon Skill+Dodge (SR4A p. 160).

I know full dodge is an interrupt action, but can you also call a gymnastic dodge anytime?

Full Defense can be used as an Interrupt Action. So all options are available, Full Dodge, Full Parry and Gymnastics Dodge.

what if one person has a gun and the other a knife; and there with in hand to hand range of each other?

If the gunman attacks he gets -3 for being in melee range and the knifefighter defends with REA or REA+Dodge/Gymnastics on Full Defense.
If the Knifefighter attacks the gunman can either dodge (REA+Dodge), parry (REA+clubs)* or block (REA+Unarmed Combat), Full Defense uses the normal rules as posted earlier.

According to SR4 melee range is 2m.

*pistols can be used as improvised melee weapons. To be on the safe side make sure to have the melee hardening mod.

Oh Dakka Dakka, you and your intimate knowledge of the combat rules. Just to clarify, non-pistol type guns can also be used as improvised melee weapons as well. 2m seems a bit far for melee range... then again I suppose most weapons have a reach of 1, which is 1m (If I remember right) so that isn't so odd.

What happens when a character has reach of 3 or 4 or even more? (Troll wielding certain weapons, dwarf wielding a monofilament whip) Do they still have to close to 2m to force someone into melee combat or can they extend the melee range to their reach? This could be really important if a troll with elongated arms wielding a monofilament whip is facing off against a gunman (To throw that -3 penalty at the gunman from a fairly impressive range).

Also there's the +2 Point Blank bonus, if he's within 1 metre.

Totally correct. I should have written firearms. And in the case of a rifle with bayonet, Blades is used instead of clubs.

Actually I thought 2m was a littl bit close. You can easily bridge 2m in Unarmed combat. A step forward and an extended leg and you're there.

I never heard about that conversion. For reach 1 weapons this may make sense, but Combat axes, Claymores or Nodachi are not 2m long.

I was thinking about a houserule making the threatened area a sphere with a radius of (2 + reach)m. But since melee especially with weapons doesn't happen very often, and this almost makes a combat map necessary, I probably won't bother.

@Marwynn: The Point-Blank Bonus is optional.

I was under the impression that the point-blank bonus assumed a near-hostage level situation. As in, I quite literally can't miss, my gun is on your chest.

Yeah, otherwise it makes the 'attacker in melee' penalty fairly moot. I'd agree that this is basically a case where the target can't move and you have the barrel almost literally pressed to their flesh (Or armor). This wouldn't happen in the course of a normal fight because your opponent wouldn't stand still long enough for you to get that level of bead on them, but would be great to simulate the 'I have a gun to your head, you move you die' sort of situation, or the 'unconscious/maybe dead guy laying on the floor and you put the barrel to their head and pull just to make sure they aren't getting back up' scenario.

If anything, aren't guns almost harder to use when you're -really- close to a moving target? Melee combat aside I figure that at that point you have to make massive shifts in your aim to compensate for their movement as opposed to just twitching the barrel of your gun a centimeter or so in the correct direction.

I've never fired a gun on a moving target, so I have no idea, but that is how it always seems to work out for me in video games, really close targets are hard to get a bead on because you have to make huge adjustments to your aim while mid range stuff you just have to adjust a bit to keep them in line. At far range you have the problem of the movements have to be -really- small and you have to be -really- accurate.

Once again keep in mind the game is not an accurate simulation of reality.

*gasp* It isn't?

I thought it was Exotic Melee (Polearms)

That's what I thought originally as well, and why it never occured to me to put a bayonet on a firearm. But Arsenal states that no matter whether the bayonet is affixed on a rifle or not the ensemble is used with Blades. Personally I would even put polearms into the Blades category, since the difference between a sword and a polearm is not much bigger than between a knife and an axe, even cyberspurs are in that category.

By that criteria, the way you weild a rifle with fixed bayonet is closer to that of a jo staff (clubs) than to a sword, and there are more similarities between a sword/long knife and an escrima stick than between a sword and axe. Maybe the distinction shouldn't be Blunt vs Edged, but instead should be One-Handed Melee vs Two-Handed Melee?

They only cancel each other out (almost - still a net -1) if you're actually shooting at the person you're in melee with. If you're shooting at a distant target (like the guy you were hired to kill) while someone else is in melee with you (like that guy's bodyguard) then the penalty is still very much in force.

One minor quibble, ties go to the defender. The attacker has to have more success than the defender to hit.

For that matter, if you hit your target, then the damage will always be at least one more than the base damage because you have to have one net hit.


Look at the example on page 154 of SR4A.

And while a pistol is very easy to use while in a melee, a rifle is pretty hard to shoot someone with if they are right on top of you.

Hmmm... Houserule suggestion. When you are engaged in melee, instead of applying a -3 penalty to the Ranged Attack test, why not simply allow the defender to defend using Melee Combat rules and options? The idea being that the defender can grab your and keep the gun pointing away from him (or something like that) rather than simply dodge, if he is within melee range. The Firefight martial art could add bonus dice to Ranged Attacks in melee instead of negating the penalty. Just throwing that out there...

Oh, also, one of the places I got the reach 1 = 1m is the fact that the monofilament whip is 2m long and has a reach of 2.

No, you can't. The only time that Gymnastics can fill in for Dodge is if you declare a Full Defence during your pass (not as an interrupt).

That is wrong:

Emphasis mine. It does not matter which of the three options the character chooses, all of them can be used as an Interrupt Action. Page 151 of SR4 has the same wording except for the page reference.

On behalf of Brawlers everywhere, I agree with Triggerz about melee defense vs firearms.

I think the point blank modifier would apply vs a melee attacker with a reach of 1 or less.

BTW, there is no penalty for firing into a melee with friendlies, although this is an issue cited in one of the examples. There is a penalty for being in melee and shot at by a third party. Net result - its easier to shoot someone while they are wrestling your friend.

Oh, and Karoline: the reach = meters is from earlier editions. More accurately, a weapon over a foot has a reach of 1, and a weapon over 4 ft has a reach of 2.

To me a net -1 one is too easy for shooting in melee. Argh I just found out that Point blank is in the SR4A book. It is no longer an optional rule and from now on the Martial Arts advantages make less sense. Firefight has just lost an advantage.

Where did you get that from? If a target is in melee and you try to shoot it, it is usually behind cover. Even if your GM does not rule thus Friends in Melee only applies to Melee Attacks.

Lost an advantage how? +2 dice for Firefight is still +2 dice, whether you're getting an extra +2 dice point blank bonus on top of that or not.

No the advantage reduces the penalty for shooting in melee by one or two. If this penalty is only -1 in the first place the addtional reduction is irrelevant.

The penalty is still -3, the point blank bonus is completely separate, it doesn't strictly speaking reduce the penalty.

While this may be true by RAW, i still don't see why logically a more difficult task (Shooting while the target or bystanders try to hinder you) should be easier than a less difficult one(shooting a near target without interference).

If the target was unaware of the attack I'd give the shooter the +2.

From a logical perspective, your margin of error for aiming as the target moves out of point blank range drops pretty dramatically (consider the angle defined by the lines from the edges of the target to the firing point). If you train specifically to deal with the interference aspect, i.e. by learning Firefight, then it's a net plus to be at point blank range even if the target (or someone else) is engaging you. I don't really see any contradictions here, personally.