I was looking in the SR4A rules to double check what type of damage is done by the Lightning Bolt spell and there seems to be a possible contradiction so I was curious how others are handling it.

What I found when I was looking into it was this (bolding is my emphasis):



Then I checked the entry for the spells:



Which seemed straight forward as the spell entry states Damage: P. But the spell description also states that it causes 'Electricity Damage' which is described as follows:



That pretty clearly says that Electricity damage is treated as Stun damage which can have additional effects (temporary incapacitation of living creatures and/or electronics).

Which rule takes precedent? The spell rules or the damage type rules for the type of damage that the spell rules say the spell inflicts?

It works like electricity weapons with regards to the secondary damage (stunning).

The damage is physical.

Bye
Thanee

This is true.

Basically the idea is that the Lighting that is produced by the spell carries more amps than tasers and household wiring.

Of course, I'd also rule that anyone stupid enough to get zapped by highline powerlines take physical as well.

That's what overflow is for, but yeah.

Thank you all. The way you describe it basically how I was assuming it would work, I just found it a little odd going to look up the secondary effect under the energy type where the book proceded to tell me that that energy type does S damage.

Hmm, you licked the power line eh? hmm...

Take 60S damage. Roll un-augmented body to resist.

You spent edge rolled dozens of 6's and soaked it easily? hmm...

Rocks fall, you die.

Secondary question:
What force do you need to cast the spell at to effect a drone?

Doesn't the drone roll a resist test to keep from malfunctioning? So I guess a safe force would 3 or 4 but it comes down to the dice right?

SR4A p164

Electronic equipment, vehicles, and drones can also be affected by Electricity damage.
They never suffer Stun damage, but they do roll Body + Armor (drones and vehicles) or
Armor x 2 (other objects) to resist secondary effects. If they achieve equal or more hits than
the attack, they are unaffected. Otherwise, they cease to function for a number of Combat
Turns equal to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test (and may need to reboot after that).

Body + Armor for a drone (or any electrical equipment) to resist being non-functional is way in favor of the object. We're throwing so much juice in that lightning bolt spell that it does P damage when electrical attacks normally do S, yet they are not subject to the "metal armor provides no benefit" clause.

It is, in fact, harder to short out most electronic devices than it is to overload a human's nervous system (I don't know about you guys, but have you ever fallen unconscious from the shock you get after touching a metal door after scruffing your shoes on the carpet? I bet not. How many of you have fried your computer doing that?)

You've got it all wrong, at that point you become electro. Just stay away from arachnid based SURGE characters. (And water)
PS: This got me thinking, dose anyone rember how Max Dillion got his power busted way up a few years ago? I rember him become more unstable but I can't seem to rember how exactly.

Naw, I know a guy who was touching a crane-truck that brushed against a live line, he lived but it literally blew his thumbs and part of his foot off.

I would have never imagined that it was possible to recreate a human thumb by cutting off one's big toe and attaching it to one's hand well over a decade ago.

Obviously you cast Pulse.

Hmm, makes me wonder what the drain for an Indirect Lightening/Flame elemental spell with the Pulse ability built in as well.

Assuming you want it an LOS(A) spell, the following modifiers should apply:
Physical Spell: +1
LOS: +0
Area: +2
Instant: +0
Elemental Effect: +2
Environmental Manipulation: -2

Should put the final Drain code at (F/2)+3. Surprisingly, this makes it have *less* drain than the base Ball Lightning or Fireball spells. To keep it balanced, I might double the elemental effect (once for manipulation, once for combat), putting the final code at (F/2)+5, same as Ball lightning and Fireball.

If you want Electric Fire Pulse though, I'd maintain the latter suggestion and double the modifier from *either* the combat or manipulation section, putting it at (F/2)+7. You could do both, chucking it up to +9, but that seems extreme. Then again, you are doing an electric fireball EMP spell, so maybe +9 isn't so unreasonable. Casting "Nuke area" should *hurt*.

Don't forget the Major/Minor Change. I'd say it's a Major change myself, so it's +2. Still a bargain at F/2 + 5 though.

Well I was thinking of a simple LOS spell, but thanks...

Is that how everyone would handle the [Element] Aura spell too? For example, I cast the Electricity Aura spell on myself and hit someone with a club (doing Physical damage). The DV of the melee attack is boosted by the caster's hits on the spellcasting test and the melee attack still does Physical damage, and you then check for the secondary effects as normal?

What about the damage from a successful melee attack against the character with the Electricity Aura?



That one would still be treated as Stun damage?

No problem, just pull the LOS modifier out and wallah. Though an Electromagnetic Pulse set as a more directed single target thing instead of an area effect as is its nature breaks my brain.

Magic.

And multiple elemental effects apply the modifer equal to the elemental effects... which is why dual elemental effect spells are so brutally high in drain...

So you'd apply the Major change and Environmental manipulation items? Hmm

Existing Pulse spell is LOS(A) with Drain of (F/2)+3, and specifically mentions Environmental... Breaking it down I came up with:
Physical Spell: +1
LOS: +0
Area: +2
Instant: +0
Environmental Manipulation: -2


Wow, okay, I totally missed that. Yeah, add in the major change or elemental effect items and it brings it to the right drain.

That said, revised drain codes for the above stuff:

Fire Pulse, Drain code (F/2)+5
Physical Spell: +1
LOS: +0
Area: +2
Instant: +0
Environmental Manipulation: -2
Elemental Effect: +2
Major Change: +2

Electric Pulse, Drain code (F/2)+5
Physical Spell: +1
LOS: +0
Area: +2
Instant: +0
Environmental Manipulation: -2
Elemental Effect: +2
Major Change: +2

Electric Fire Pulse, Drain code (F/2)+7
Physical Spell: +1
LOS: +0
Area: +2
Instant: +0
Environmental Manipulation: -2
Elemental Effect (Lightning): +2
Elemental Effect (Fire): +2
Major Change: +2

Yes, the Elemental Aura spells are actually fully the elemental effects that you choose. So a Lightning Bolt is Physical damage, but an Electrical Aura spell is Stun damage.

Aye, I was thinking of "reskinning" the pulse into basically an extra strong surge per say, or if it's less brain breaking perhaps the pulse is small enough that it only effects a single target.

I like Draco18s' answer better: "Magic."

hehe

Hard to argue with that answer

True but I like to at least try to have some logic other than "magic".

Yeah... I Understand this sentiment...

Keep the Faith

I wrote this up.



Effectively a Stun version of a single-target Lightning Bolt, coupled with the Pulse spell at the point of impact.

Interesting, but it seems that the drain code is a little low... 2 Effects (one Physical, Elemental, Stun (+3, -1), and the Other an Area Effect, Envrionmental, Minor Change, Elemental, Physical Pulse (+5, -2)) and still only F/2+2?. Should that not be F/2+5? Or if using the Elemental Effect only for the Pulse effect F/2+3?

Not sure why, but a gut check tells me that it Seems Off...

Keep the Faith

We also don't have a radius on that area pulse.

Radius would be the standard effect for Area... Magic Meters Radius...

Keep the Faith

^.^; Of course. Tells you how well I did on my "the magic of shadowrun" test.

No Worries Draco18s

Keep the Faith

Physical Spell +1
LOS +0
Area +2
Instant Duration +0
Combat Elemental Effect +2
Combat Stun Damage (other Elemental Combat spells deal stun damage too) -1
Environmental Manipulation -2
Total = (Force/2)+2.

Nice spell

Not sure you can use the Environmental Manipulation reduction for a Combat Spell, though. Which category did you choose for the spell?

My gut seems to be with Mr. Jalynsfein.

But you are using 2 seperate effects... in the listings, spells with multiple effects are constructed with each effect seperately and then totaled... you have a Combat Spell Element (Stun Bolt) and a Manipulation Spell Element (Pulse), and both must be accounted for... see the precedent for Multiple Combat effects, each is constructed individually... Napalm for Example has 2 Elemental Effects (Fire and Water) and thus a much higher drain than the single Elemental Fire Effect that Fireball represents...

Keep the Faith

It just seems to be missing something...

The Napalm spell, however, has two effects that both increase the drain value, and that's why it has such a high drain. The totals are not added together, otherwise the drain would be higher by 3.

Physical Spell +1
Area +2
Instant +0
Elemental effect +2 (x2)
Total = 7

If they were added together it would be:
Physical Spell +1
Area +2
Instant +0
Elemental effect +2
Plus
Physical Spell +1
Area +2
Instant +0
Elemental effect +2
Total = 10

I suspect you can't mix spell effects from different spell categories directly. You have to choose a category for your spell in Step 1 of Designing new spells, and your choice limits the Drain modifiers you can use in creating your spell. Different modifiers are listed under different spell categories, and the fact that you can't use all modifiers for all spell groups is even mentioned explicitly under Calculate Drain Value in SM p.162.

Further, my interpretation of the spell creation rules is that the modifiers within (as well as between) different groups are meant as mutually exclusive. Otherwise you could add Stun Damage on top of every Combat Spell, or a Cosmetic Effect to every Health Spell, and create a more powerful and more complex spell with less Drain. This doesn't seem logical to me. I'm not saying you can't create complex spells like this; you just have to rethink the Drain in a new way, when you do.

RAW is a bit fuzzy when it comes to spells with multiple effects, so I guess it comes down to GM approval.


Personally I would say that making a spell that does more with less drain doesn't 'seem balanced'.

Edit: Still... A cool spell like that might be worth the extra drain

What's so "broken" about a single-target, electrical stun damage spell that bursts in an AoE that does not affect optical electronics? I do see your point though, Zormal.

Yeah I wouldn't call it broken, either.

I'd just up the Drain a bit, if asked to approve such a spell.

Add "minor mod" or "major mod" to it?

I would place the drain at F/2+5 as previously stated... It is more powerful then either Sun Bolt and Pulse individually... the adding on of a Stunning Electrical Elemental effect to the Pulse spell would warrant the F/2+5 Drain Code in my opinion...