I might be in the minority here, but hear me out.

I LOVE Shadowrun.

I've loved it ever since my best chummer came home from Atlanta with his cousin's SR2 book back when we were in early high school. Within weeks he had his own copy, and I bought myself one just so I wouldn't have to keep borrowing it. I got my little brother into it, got other friends into it who moved away and became pen-and-paper RPG mavens amongst their new peers. I've read as many of the novels as I could get my hands on, and the total amount of SR books I've kept in my closet dwarfs the combined total of all other RPG books I own. I bought a ton of the SR card game. I even bought a good many of the Shadowrun Duels action figures. I've played through both the Genesis and SNES games multiple times, and -- I'll just admit it -- I even broke down and bought the XBox game just cos I needed a fix (albeit a warped and mishandled one).

So it goes to show that SR is a foundation of who I am as a gamer, as a roleplayer, heck, even who I am as a person in many ways (my Dumpshock handle I've used as my moniker for 12 years, and I even wrote a novel based in Seattle, in a less-cyberpunk-y vein, but still very SR-inpsired).

Some part of me died when FASA closed its doors, but I got over it when I learned their games would continue in the form of FanPro and later CGL.

Now imagine my surprise when SR4 was announced. There were no more deckers. The Matrix was wireless. Everything was different. I didn't immediately go and hug my well-used SR2 book, but I kinda wanted to. So I didn't even bother buying 4th edition. I felt like I had been jilted at the altar, with no good explanation.

When GenCon came around this year, I made it a point to pick up two pre-releases at the CGL booth: the 25th anniversary Battletech art/fiction book (another of my old loves) and the 20th Anniversary edition of Shadowrun. I didn't really care if it was 4th edition or not. I wanted it for the anniversary factor. I wanted it as a link to something I enjoyed so much when I was younger.

And then I started reading the book, cover to cover. Everything made complete sense to me. Sure, the mechanics were different, but the dice rolling method still felt like SR. The covert ops, the cyberware, the Matrix, the Magic -- everything important was still there. I enjoyed reading the rules and the fiction to the point that I neither noticed nor cared that there was a de-emphasis on the pink mohawk cyberpunk feel.

Which makes sense, if you think about it. Shadowrun is what you make it. If you want to play your SR world as slick covert operatives with little or no cyber and a spit-polished mage for support, go for it. If you want to play your SR world as pink-mohawk-cyberpunk with characters in tribal-fringe fashion and Amerindian shamans on your team, then go for it. If you want to call your computer specialists "deckers" rather than "hackers," then by all means do so (and I'm pretty sure someone out there has already come up with SR4-compatible wired/VR-only Matrix rules to simulate the 2050-2064 era).

The thing you have to remember is the Shadowrun books, no matter what edition they are, are meant as springboards for the imagination. Something about the world you don't like? Change it; make a house rule. You want Dunky to be alive and President of the UCAS in your world? Change it; nix the whole Dragonheart saga entirely if you want. I assure you that CGL and the ghosts of FASA won't care.

Often in threads like these people mistake criticism for a lack of fun. Just because you demand a quality product doesn't automatically equate to a lack of fun, or an inflexibility during play. I pay a lot of good money for Shadowrun products, like anything else I invest my time, money and emotion into of course I'll demand the best I can get for my money.

I would like to say, there have been a lot of good artists in SR's history, and Laubenstein's work managed to capture the spirit of SR for me, especially its satiric nature. I mean, on one hand you have stores like McHughs and Lordstroms (among others), which are obviously jokes on real-world companies, and on the other you have trolls and orks, which can be inherently comedic, depending on how they're drawn. Mix the two and you feels and have a piece of Jeff Laubenstein art.

Laubenstein also was instrumental in capturing the zeitgeist of Earthdawn for me as well, but that's another matter entirely. The only place I felt his work didn't seem to mesh well was with Battletech. Jeff's art is just far too organic to work in a world of straight lines.

I prefer the dark and gritty. Laubenstein was fine when the artwork was balanced. I suppose I should blame Bradstreet for becoming too expensive.

And no Joe, you're not a minority. Well, you're not alone, at least. I don't agree with the idea "Just change it if it doesn't work for you" though. There is a collective experience that we have when we enjoy a product. If what you loved is no longer what it was you have less to relate to others with. So it basically becomes "Change with the System or be Forgotten". I suppose a decent analogy for some of us older folks that can't understand why the younguns sag their pants and wear their hats sideways. Little bastards. And even more to the extreme are our grandparents who will only listen to Bing Crosby and the Ink Spots and who still think Elvis was the devil. Their friends dwindle away and they have less to communicate to others about. Man, I always like to end on a happy note.

That's all fine and good until the games you run end up becoming diametrically opposed to the revealed metaplot. Like, for example, say you were running a campaign wherein Dunky was one of your principal NPCs, and he's important to your story, and you had several (fictional in-game) years worth of runs that involved him or his influence.

Then you hear this news about how Big D was assassinated. Do you let this derail your plans and scrap your entire campaign? Or do you fudge the story to go where you wanted it to go in the first place (barring any PC "interventions" of course)?

If you think about it, no one's SR campaigns are canon except to the group that plays them. Even the published adventures that are considered metaplot canon (such as the Arcology Shutdown) can end up being played out in a way that doesn't mesh with the metaplot result and are thus rendered non-canonical. So if your game isn't canon anyway, why feel you are obligated to adhere to a piece of metaplot canon you don't agree with?

Sure, SR is a shared experience amongst players, but I can guarantee you that no two groups of SR players play the same kind of game, regardless of what edition they are using, how old they are, or how long they've been playing.

As I said, Shadowrun is what you make it. The rulebooks, sourcebooks, fiction, and metaplot are just launchpads from which to fire your rocket.

And there's absolutely nothing forcing you to change. Seems to me there are a ton of people on this board that still swear by SR2 or SR3 and have absolutely no interest in upgrading (or downgrading, depending on whom you ask) to SR4. And that's fine. No one is twisting your arm to go out and by SR4. To me SR4 seems more geared towards people who either have never played SR before or towards older, jaded players who hadn't played SR in a long time. If SR2 and the 2050-2064 era work for you, then run with it.

Go ask the folks from Shadowlands what they think about 4th edition. There's a wonderful sense of betrayal and loss when something is taken from you and warped into a form that you don't agree with. You've even felt it according to what you've mentioned in your post above.

I thing the biggest problem with changes to things that you love is that new information is no longer being specifically written for you; you are no longer the target audience. That's what's painful. I'd wager that most of the folks playing 1st and 2nd edition Shadowrun with settings in 2050 didn't care much when any of the new books came out. Now if their editions were receiving some new material they'd probably be overjoyed (well, probably highly suspicious, but still curious).

I guess that's what I meant about being in the minority. I don't feel like SR4 warped the game into something I disagree with. I feel it is a natural progression, a mutation that is beneficial rather than an evolutionary dead end that needs pruning from SR's genetic tree.

One thing I always appreciated about the FASA stable of games (SR, Battletech, Earthdawn) is that time in them was never stagnant. For example, over the years, Battletech has compiled a long and sordid history. The in-game year I first started playing (15+ years ago) was 3025; now it hovers in the 3070s (although canonized history goes beyond that, current source books are dated for around this time). In that huge span, I've seen a lot happen across the galaxy. Whole factions have disappeared, others arose from their ashes; favored characters were killed. Stuff happens. The world grows and ages along with you, and to me, even when at some primal level I'd like the universe to remain the same, that the game changes makes it feel even that much more like a living, organic thing, not just some words in a book. And yet, there are clearly delineated eras in the Battletech books that allow you to play a game in just about any era. So why should a similar approach to Shadowrun be any different?

It shouldn't. Which is why I firmly believe there should be an official Catalyst product covering the original setting and the technological aspects thereof that aren't covered in 4e.

Fluff-wise, it would give us 50's players a new book to refer our fellow die rollers to, and have a nice book matching with the other new books with modern production values.

Rules-wise, we'd have rules for good old Decking again, and maybe even the entertainment industry rules updated from Shadowbeat. In both cases, the mechanics aren't cut-and-dried for conversaion. Decking had variable target numbers AND a threshold of successes, which makes it a little more complicated to try and equate it over to the new system. The music rules made use of the 'open test', which kept track of the highest Success roll as well as the number of successes. Once again, difficult to write a conversion for. A new set of rules written and playtested by the folks in charge to ensure they're not broken.

I don't think anyone is asking for SR4e to change things BACK. What's done is done, and some players are digging it. BUT - some in-print support for the grognards like me wouldn't go amiss at all. I'd happily pay $50 for a nice 2050s hardcover full of fluff and rules, or $30 for a softcover of the same.

Good idea !!

I think the success of the various World of Darkness and Call of Cthulhu variants show how well this can work.

But like reprinting old source books and old scenarios, the powers-that-be at Catalyst will reject almost guaranteed revenue streams in favour of new source material and whatever else they decide we want - ignoring the fans.

Jeffery Webb -- please forgive the partial quoting if I missed some points.


I don't want them to roll things back, quite to the contrary. Its time to Roll things forward again. Create a unique world, not merely a parallel of today with some new technology and weak magical impact (the new magical critters are tissue strength). Who is our new magical super power? Who are our new celebs? Our new rock bands? Where are my Fragging Desert wars?

Make it unique and run with it Catalyst. If its not unique, even I have trouble remembering it or pushing it.

BlueMax

Sweet jesus, this thread. It's like hanging out on Dragonsfoot all over again.

Catalyst doesn't hate your money. In fact, Catalyst doesn't hate YOU. You in particular. Yes, you. They would love to give you guys support in any way that they can - if you're looking forward for grognardy goodies, just wait for 6th World Almanac, from what I'm hearing - but the problem, as always, comes from the cost of things.

Yes, it would be wonderful for them to print support for campaigns running in the 50s or 60s. There were some interesting things going on in there, and I, for one, would love to see some more Bug City era support. But things like that take time and money, both of which are finite resources, especially for a small company like Catalyst (when in comparison to say, WotC or even White Wolf. I'd wager they're in the second tier by now, with BT, Eclipse Phase, and Cthulhutech. But I'm rambling). Those resources are better put towards things that are making them the most money now, like new SR material and other material for those other CGL properties. Even putting out pdfs, while cheaper, take time and money to produce and pull people away from current projects that serve as the bread n' butter of the company.

Secondly, and no offense here guys, but this really does sound like a bunch of complaining about the good old days, when things were awesome and golden guitar gods played wacked out solos while unicorns and dragons fought to the death behind them. Times have changed, and things have moved on. As we were discussing in another thread, cyberpunk is essentially dead in the water. The cultural basis that was there for it is gone; it's hard to rant on about the horrors of technology when it's making us younger, healthier, and it's providing instant entertainment at your beck and call. Japan is actually one of our buddies now. I don't know if there was a strong native american basis behind it, but we're a whole lot greener and trying to be better to our fellow man in the year 2009. The corps are still the corps, but they're being better watched after a period of naked greed that existed in the previous presidency.

And besides, technology forever marches forward. I have an ipod charging in the computer I'm typing this post up on right now that can do things that my old discman could never do - and its at least three generations old by this point. The future is now, and now we're trying to figure out what the future holds next. No one knows this yet - someone, same thread - was talking about how most cyber fiction nowadays is placed after the Singularity, when Men and Computers became one. We don't know what that period was like because we have no anchors to give us a good picture, because we're screaming right towards it.

And yeah, Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley were great innovators with imaginitive minds, but they're gone now. Dowd isn't working in the biz any more and Findley is dead. People like them were rare and unique and it's hard to replace them. IMO, I think that Wizkids / Fanpro / Catalyst has done a fine job of perserving their spirits and moving the game forward - remember, 3rd edition gave us things like SURGE, Ghostwalker, Deus and the Arcology, expanded info on the great dragons, the SOTA books, the Shedim, the IUM..I mean, maybe it's not to your preference, but I'd say out of that list, we're doing pretty good. 4e has been slow on the metaplot updates, but sometimes it takes time to lay out the groundwork for what's going to happen next. Emergence was a pretty good boo, and all of the corebooks have at least introduced some interesting things to add to the Sixth World tapestry...

I guess where I'm going with this is that its hard to listen to you guys talk and not hear "They Changed It, Now It Sucks", mixed in with the usual entitlement plagued, "the developers hate us and don't want our money!" No one hates you, no one hates that you play a previous edition, we just play our own games and move on with life. There is no large conspiracy out there to minimize you or cut you off from the rest of the herd; we're all Shadowrun fans here. It's just that some of us move with the books and have no complaints, and some people don't. It's as simple as that.

It's just a game people.

This would fit well in a book covering variant campaigns, such as DocWagon, mercenaries, pirates, corporate security, and so on.

Traditionally 4e is the biggest change to the rules (look at GURPS! huge change by GURPS standards)
Catalyst doesn't hate anyone but they and White-Wolf cant afford to print the old stuff for the few people who would buy an older edition.
Fortuantly there is drivethrurpg and others that allows you to get some of the old stuff digitally and you can put it on a kindle or a nook if you want to read it on the bus without a laptop.
Soon POD will be available on drivethru, this is going to be a big change in the RPG industry as now sticking with your favorite edition will be a very possible option.
The big question is what will this mean for new editions and FLGS. Only time will tell.

I am also like joe chummer except as much as I want to like 4e it just never works out. Its not my shadowrun, but I will still continue to buy the 4e books to support shadowrun even if they just gather dust on my shelf.

I don't think any one here doesn't realize that cost is a limiting factor. Also I don't think anyone's taking things as serious as you make it sound. I've always wondered why some people can't seem to get on board with allowing constructive criticism. Like you said, it's just a game. Why can't some of us disagree on how it's played, sold, or built?

I don't even think everyone in this thread is saying they don't like all of the changes to the game. In fact most of what I see is some minor disagreements on a few points. If the community can't tolerate dissent, no matter how large or small it's not much of a community. I personally think the community is healthy, and vibrant and can tolerate little dissent here, and there-especially by people looking to spend their hard earned dollars in support of the community.

Just because you don't like every single piece of the game doesn't mean you hate it.

I don't think it will contain any rules in it, per se, but the forthcoming Shadowrun Almanac should at least sate some of the yearning for a little history.

Also, would it really be that difficult to adapt SR4 house rules to fit a pre-2064 era?

Off the top of my head, here's all you'd really need to change rules-wise, and none of the changes are complicated:

1) Use normal commlink stats for comparable cyberdecks. The Signal stat isn't necessary.
2) All Matrix actions happen in full VR with a datajack or trodes. No AR.
3) Nix wireless communications (except for a sat-link, natch). Most of the wireless advanced rules from Unwired (like creating a cluster from a dozen toasters) are likewise out the window.
4) Don't allow technomancer PCs (although you can fudge the TM rules to allow datajack-using otaku, if you want)
5) Mages can only summon air/water/earth/fire elementals, and shamans can only summon nature, beasts, and Man spirits.

If I were the people at Shadowrun I'd tap the fan base, and get organized proposals for alternate campaigns, and get them posted online. Make them free and reap the benefits. Shadowrun has a great fan base, who are willing to work, and apparently some of you are even technically proficient with machines.

I would too. Historically the "people at Shadowrun" had their heads too far up their metaplot to consider the idea that other people could produce other materials. And if they got behind their open source fans it might drive new revenue streams. Sure we can post it in some back corner of the web, but Shadowrun has always been sourced from the company. Community projects really died after Gurth and ShadowRN faded.

4e players are like mac users, pay more for an inferior product and feel better about it. That's cool. That's their tribe. I don't hate mac's or 4e, I just don't care about them, or what they do.

I wish that 2nd edition was OGL, so we can make materials for the old stuff. That would give us the best of both worlds I would think.

You say you don't hate Macs, but the statement "inferior product" clearly shows how you really feel (and thus, by extension, SR4).

I don't own a Mac personally (at least not yet), but I work with them in a professional, IT context every day, both from a hardware AND and a software standpoint. You may not like Macs, but I'll be the first to tell you they are a dream to support (in terms of hardware/software problems), especially vs. the average PC box, and they are much easier to work ON, from a user perspective. I've got users who -- while many are nigh on functionally illiterate when it comes to computers in general -- can fly through things on a Mac with ease, but sit them in front of a Windows box, and they'll be calling me with problems within a half-hour.

I don't expect everyone to like Macs. Just be careful about insulting them without due cause, calling them inferior when they can easily stand on the same shelf next to a Window-based PC. The average person I encounter who gives the finger to Macs has NEVER used them, and you can't debase something truthfully unless you've given it an honest try.

By that extension, you can't call SR4 an inferior product unless you've run its through its paces and you have firm ground to stand on. If exposure doesn't change your initial opinion (and this goes for everything), that's fine, especially if you have reasons to back up your thesis; just don't go around insulting something that other people find legitimate value in it.

Ditto Joe Chummer... Good Post... Thanks

Keep the Faith

Yeah, see, my rant was more directed towards people like Platinum, who seem to take the tack that the company doesn't know what it's doing with their own product and obviously the fans could do so much better. This is known as Fuck You George Lucas Syndrome.

I don't mind the criticism of 4e. I just find that it's a system that I can finally run for a game I've been a fan of since 2e. Yes, I'll admit some of your words do grate on me, but I also realize I have a low threshold for some things and really try to restrain myself. Like, if you notice, I kept myself pretty calm in my first post in the thread.

I'm eagerly awaiting 6th World Almanac.

I've honestly never understood FYGL Syndrome. The only questionable things about the SW-prequel trilogy (IMO) were Jar-Jar and some of the acting/script (Ani and Padme in Attack of the Clones, for example), which alone I don't think are enough to cry havoc about. And sure, many fans also decry "midichlorians" as demystifying the Force, but if you think about it, in a world where Force-users around for countless thousands of years (how far into the past of the Original Trilogy was "Knights of the Old Republic," again?), the Jedi would naturally have had time to study and quantify the Force as best they could on a scientific level. Midichlorians might explain why Person A is more Force-sensitive than Person B, but their presence never actually explains HOW or WHY the Force works.

But consider Darth Maul, Jango Fett, Mace Windu, clone troopers, and so on, and man, did Lucas manage to pack a lot of cool stuff in those three movies.


So am I, chummer. So am I.

The problem with the Star Wars Sage (and episode 1-3 particularly) was that you knew where the story was going to end up... the vast majority of Star Wars Fans just wanted to see how that story got there... there were no real surprises... This coming from someone whose wife worked for George Lucas for 4+ years... I really liked the saga as a whole... Jar Jar Notwithstanding... he reminded me of the Ewoks... something for the kids so it did not seem as dark as it really was...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

OT like no other, but my understanding of those thingies was that they where attracted to people with force potential, not the source.

basically, its like taking a blood sample to look for abnormal amounts of white blood cells when wondering if someone is sick, but with no obvious symptoms.

as for macs, no problem with them, tho i have a problem with apple. That problem is their overly tight control of everything, all in the name of what experience a product should have.

they lock osx to the hardware, go after psystar when psystar is clearly selling to a market that apple is ignoring (the area between a imac and a mac pro), not allowing third party programs on the iphone to run in the background (while clearly the apple supplied media player can) or refusing programs access to the app store for reasons thats on the razors edge of anti-competitive. I am just waiting for them to phase out their imac line in favor of something thats more in line with their iphone offering. A kind of media station if you will, thats not running classical osx, and can only get its apps from the app store. The only products left running osx would be their pro products, just so they do not run afoul their media production customers...

heh, i do wonder if not they make a fine example of how horizon may appear...

Maybe we should move the Star Wars discussion over to general, because while I'm enjoying it, I don't think that's what this thread is about, lol.

I'm fairly conservative when it comes to my roleplaying. I like stuff straight from the company, and I'll accept the vast majority of what's published. Some things I may turn my nose at, but I'm a pretty open guy. I'm really leery of using fan generated stuff (he says, being of the people submitting work to Data Haven) because so much of it is poorly balanced, ill thought out, or came about because of a perceived foul against the author's senses.

So I'm not real tolerant of the thought process that obviously fans can do it better. Maybe that makes me a bad person, I dunno. But it's not like CGL is putting out books with steaming piles of poo in-between the pages; the vast majority of the stuff I've bought and looked at, I've really really dug. Like cyborgs and a discussion of transhumanism / transgenderism in Augmentation, or the martial arts in Arsenal, or the new paradigms for magic users in Street Magic, or streams and new sprites for technomancers in Unwired. Hell, I for the most part enjoyed Emergence (there were a few kludgy parts).

So again, I don't know if it's something wrong with me and I'll accept any shit that gets shoveled my way, or that I'm just not that picky when it comes to my material. It's my table. I'll put on it what I want. And for the most part, I'm happy with what Wizkids / Fanpro / CGL has put out in the last few years and haven't been impressed by some of the fan created "solutions" to problems I don't see.

What gets my goat is the entitlement that some fandom feels towards things they're "fans" of, and the abuse they heap on the creators because they're not going with their vision. That's why I wrote my little rant up above.

And now that I've killed half an hour at work :/

ETA: Of course, xkcd had to put this out today, right?

Sigh, sorry to be this guy. Really I am. But I guess for my two yen I don't think the fans are completely ignorant, nor do I think the Company is all powerful. I feel things lie, as usual, somewhere in between. The people making the game aren't perfect, they're not always right. The fan base isn't always wrong, nor is it always right.



Where as in my experience-which in no way invalidates your own, but rather instead explains my own experiences-I've never had a problem running any edition. I've played SR since it's inception, and I've never had a problem running the game because of system. But I've never worried about "crunch". I could run Shaodwrun with any rule set and make it cool. For me the game isn't it's rules, rather it's setting. No game speaks to me like Shadowrun does. It is THE game for me. I do not foresee me ever playing another game in a serious way. All that said I don't always agree with what they do for the game.

You're not being that guy. If you have to make a disclaimer that you're not that guy, then you're not that guy.

I'm all for the balanced approach, and if I didn't agree with you about not everyone being perfect, I wouldn't be writing stuff up for Data Haven. Well I would - I do have an ego to maintain.

I'm just trying to do my part in making this place sound less like Dragonsfoot or some of the other fan run boards that don't know where the line is drawn.


And I agree with you. But - and again, my experience - is that 2e and even 3e broke my brain, and I could manage DnD 3e

I think it was Caine that said that a big help is the layout of the books, and I agree. It also doesnt hurt that the 4e system is close to the WoD system, which I am intimately familiar with. So.

Nothing is stopping you from producing fan content right now. Just before Peter Taylor left he was lamenting that there wasn't enough fan-generated content being produced. Heck, Peter got his job because his fan project "EuroSB" became Shadows of Europe. There are ways of promoting your fan material and getting people directed towards it: pay for good web space (not somesite.com/user/free/account/dha737#32_2ahs/index.html), promote your site, post links everywhere, update for new material often. The DDH that Bull has set up even provides a semi "official" way for you to post some of your material. Perhaps everyone goes to the "official" source for Shadowrun material because not many people have made good fan sites with useful material. Sitting back and complaining that CGL has provided no "official" channel for your material sounds to me like the flimsiest of excuses for inaction.

Depends on how hard core you want to go. If you just want SR4 with the serial numbers filed off its easy. If you want a game where wired owns the battle field and Fuchi electronics is still #1 its way tougher or at leased you are going to make enough changes to the rules/gear to resemble the amount of changes from 3e to 4e. Even the cost of things would have to change. 3e is even a big departure from 2050 play.

Go missing in the big city for a few days and then to respond can be tricky so I am grabbing bits and pieces.

As for macs and the rest of the world, I have supported them from an IT side as well, But from the application/system side. The lack of software and application support from vendors is overwhelming, which makes mitigating this gap problematic. They are a nice to work with but you have a hard time getting to enterprise applications to run on them. That is why I think they are not in the same category.

I don't think that I know more than the company, but I do think that the company doesn't know everything, and doesn't always know what's best. I have been gone for a few years. Did that a few times. I guess I am expecting the energy excitement and inclusion that I felt back in the days of Gurth, Robert Hayden, and FASA. Back then it seemed like things were done because it was cool and good for shadowrun, and was not about specific people or money. It entirely could have been, but that was not perceived back then because information flowed differently. Personally I don't know how d20 makes any kind of profit, but I really love the community and material produced. I still think that model for 2e would be great. I dunno about anyone else, but it seems difficult to file the serial numbers off and make shadowrun into something official if it doesn't come from the company producing it. The devs put out a lot of material for their community, ie missions, but I haven't seen a lot of messages that encourage people to create their own flavours of shadowrun for others to share. That is what I think is missing.

I have such great memories playing this game. I know there were critical flaws with the game, but "It is THE game for me" as well.

As several people have pointed out, there are a couple of ways to have your personal ideas printed in a semi official format, if nothing else... The Data Haven is a prime place to go looking for an outlet for your creativity, and I seem to remember several other outlets talked about on these forums... sorry that I cannot point you to more locations, but try out the Dumpshock Data Haven, you might like it...

Keep the Faith

[edit] post removed for misreading original post

Isn't the DDH publishing stuff for 4th edition? That is the assumption that I drew, based on the fact that it is band new, and Bull's name is on it.

I have done the publish my own content stuff before. I also did a great deal of collecting of ideas here actually. Shut down my domain a long time ago because I didn't think paying for the hosting of a non-official and basically dead site made sense.

I do believe that DDH is for 4th Edition Primarily, but I could be wrong... and Bull's name is on a lot of things I think...

As for self-publishing, there are a lot of free hosting sites that you can take advantage of (probably with your ISP, I get a fairly large chunk of webspace with mine if I wanted it), and if you promote it here on Dumpshock, I am sure that you would probably get a fair amount of traffic to make it viable... several Dumpshockers have their own sites that are functional for Fan-Made Content...

Keep the Faith

But technically, aside from the few rules differences I already pointed out, aren't the only real differences between 2070 and 2050 all a matter of fluff? Sure Fuchi doesn't exist in 2070 in the same capacity as it did in 2050, but that's merely a matter of fiction and setting, not a matter of rules. And even if you did need rules for figuring out where Fuchi stands amongst the AAAs, then the asset ratings rules in Corporate Shadowrfiles (an SR2-era book) or Corporate Download(an SR3-era book) should be usable no matter what SR edition you're playing, as they don't rely on any stats or mechanics that are intrinsic to any one particular SR version.

And as far as costs go, if you're using the BP system, the cost of most gear items shouldn't really change things, since the BP cost for money is geared to SR4 prices (in fact, I believe the cost of most vehicles, armor, and weapons haven't changed much over the years). The only thing that might need to be fudged are cyberdeck costs, as there's a big discrepancy between the most powerful cyberdecks of 50s and the most powerful commlinks of the 70s. I mean, keeping super-cheap SR4-analogs of Fairlight Excaliburs out of the hands of street punks is probably a good idea, as far as the common decker-worth-his-salt in the 50s is concerned

There are some cost differences. Such as Alpha and Beta multipliers, but you are essentially correct about the build systems costs.

True. Been so long since I've played SR2/3 I didn't notice the difference.

I'd also think the Priority or the Karma system of character creation (as outlined in Runner's Companion) would balance the cost as well.

If someone's worried about bankrupting their character at chargen trying to spend BPs for SR4 to purchase a drekhot Fuchi or Fairlight cyberdeck for a 2050-era SR4 campagin, I would suggest maybe not changing the price per se but rather the availability. The actual cost of an expensive 2050's era cyberdeck keeps the pricey SOTA decks out of the hands of the unwashed and unworthy masses, but if a 2050-era cyberdeck-analog of say, a Fairlight Caliban commlink cost the same, you could give the cyberdeck a high availability/legality. Sure you might have the money to buy one, but they're really hard to actually get their hands on (or are considered the province of security/government/law-enforcement deckers and thus illegal without an operator license). If your fixer or local computer shop can't get enough successes to meet the availability threshold you set within X amount of time, then said deck simply isn't in stock anywhere (think the Nintendo Wii shortage that lasted almost a whole year after its launch date).

Or, you could just keep them the cyberdecks the same SR2/3 price and spend all your BP on decks and programs rather than skills, attributes, or other things that help keep you alive (which I wouldn't recommend unless you are making a agoraphobic/shut-in/total-immersion-lifestyle kind of decker).

Or, you could create a cyberdeck with better stats than an 8,000 Fairlight Caliban commlink , and charge more for it ie. invent a "Fuchi Firestorm 3XT" (or whatever you want to call it) cyberdeck, with System 6, Response 6, Firewall 6, for, say, 20,000-50,000.

I hope this makes sense. I haven't had a decent night's sleep in several days.

@ Joe

It depends on how hard core you want to be. PCs in 1e/2e/3e could not start with anywhere near the best cyberdeck (that would be 5.5 million nuyen in 2e reduced to 1.5 million in 3e). If I want just some 2050 flavor (racism, no wireless) then your ok with 4e not too much work. If you want magic to be uber rare, high end tech not to be available to PCs cus it costs so much, then this becomes a ton of work. You have to remember in the early years of SR you were only going to start with a upper mid level deck for your priority A. You also had to pick A to be a Metahuman. Cost of things was just plain different so it gave it a different feel. SR3/4 reduced cost in favor of balance. This is not a bad thing, it moved with the plot but... If you want 2050 to really feel like 2050 your going to have to mod your 4e game heavily.

[edit] there is nothing wrong with just filing off the serial numbers and saying good enough either. You just have to find a happy place for your game. For me that means I use 3e with some 4e tweaks. But I am alittle more hard core about my 2050 than others and less hard core than those who would still put up with skill web and spell locks.

I have just read thru the thread. I am gonna keep it short and quote the most interesting statements (at least for me).

Count me in mate. Even if I doubt that such a book(s) will be ever published.


No offense, but what has this to do with Shadowrun? IRL Technology marched forward, and? Who the frag cares? Only because back in the days (1989) people used BTX modems (or whatever) to surf the first the internet, and thesedays you can surf and download thru your iPhone/iPod WiFi, it doesnt mean that this should be of any influence for a RPG. We are talking about a role playing game which has advanced for reasons that have definitely nothing to do with the advances of our IRL. Developers do not only publish new editions for the reason of better rule mechanics, but also for the reason of, guess what, profit. Which is ok, they fund their company thru new products and game lines. Thats the way it is, otherwise they couldnt exist.

Yes you are right, it is only a game, therefore I dont understand why you are exaggerating that much? I think that it should be ok for a player to express their point of view on the actuall system. For whatever reasons this may be. Some are whining about new mechanics and how unrelastic some rules are, and others are missing the game falvour of older editions. Although I am no big friend of the whiners, I can feel those people who miss the sr1 spirit.

I am fully aware that you overdid your statement on purpose. But hey, hold your horses. Again, please dont feel offended by me. It is nice to see that there are still some people that would like to play the NEW sr4 mechanics in some older setting, with the possibility to play deckers and riggers, and with possibility I dont mean just to rename commlinks into decks. So instead blowing this thread up, why just dont get together and maybe work on some homebrew stuff?


RRRIGGGHT! Therefore I would like to suggest to anyone interested, lets join forces and work together on some homebrew sr4 rules, which would allow us to play back in the 50-60ies? Talking about reworking cyberdecks, riggercontrols and so on. The more people the better the output should be.


Cheers.

You are correct that advancement of RL technology "shouldn't" affect how tech advances in the game, but the reality of RPG's as a business means that it does. Many of the changes in SR4 were made (I believe, I don't know for sure) in an attempt to make it appealing for new players and break down barriers of entry. For people unfamiliar with previous versions of Shadowrun, it can be very inhibiting to come to a game that supposedly takes place in the "future" yet has technical capabilities inferior to those we have right now.

Like it or not, I think the focus of SR4 has been to try and bring new players into the game while still trying to please long-time fans of the franchise. It's a tough line to walk.

Cyber changed drastically too. Used to be a sammie could spend a cool $1M on gear and still be wanting.

BP costs for metas would have to go yup, plus the random allergies...

You know, one of the things I picked up on through this thread is the significance of art. Many people sighted the artwork as much or more than the actual content as the biggest factor of things they "miss." I suppose the lesson learned is that the influence art has on a game cannot be underestimated.

That's correct Malachi. Art sets the mood for me. If I opened Shadowrun 4th edition and everything was anime I'd, well, beat the hell out of someone for crapping on my game. Seriously. I'm sure some of you get off on anime but I'm a gritty realism guy firmly rooting in the Shadowrun of the Bradstreet Shadowrun days. Laubenstein art still pisses me off. And the pastels that 3rd edition sported about severed my ties with SR. That and the lack of any sort of spirit. All rules and little story content. Impressive rules, still, I'm playing Shadowrun for the vibe. And the story and the art carries that vibe for me.

I'm not sure that has to be true though Malachi. I get that it generally is, but I'm not sure I agree it has to be. Of course that's not my choice to make. You still haven't answered my question by the way.

So I take it you liked Janet Allusio's work?

Also, there are quite a few anime series that are dark, gritty, and realistic. Not ALL anime is big eyes, bright colors, exaggerated proportions and tentacles. "Jin-Roh" and "Grave of the Fireflies" immediately spring to mind.

I was going through an sr2 manual yesterday looking at her artwork. I didn't like the cross hatching, that would be my only gnit pick, as her work was solid and really gave you a feel for the metas and cyberware.

I don't really agree with that. There hasn't really been anything invented in the last 10 years that would alter the course of a futuristic game like Shadowrun. The scope of the wireless mesh was a direction set by Rob deliberately. Shadowrun had wireless before that, just not the scale that it was blown up to because of a Metaplot. The environment should have played a bigger part then wireless. My uninformed guess was that Rob wanted to make Shadowrun more like GITS SAC.

If Janet Allusio's art looks like Bradstreets, then heck yeah, I'd love it. Especially is it's B&W.

I had quite the anti-anime rant but I've deleted it. I will say that anime is not Shadowrun for me. I cannot take it seriously as an art form. The realism never comes across to me. But that's my feelings on the subject. You're Shadowrun may look like Dominion Tank Police. Or a high school drama like, well, half the anime we get in the US.

For my SR I need realism, black and white, guns, swords, the occasional wit (like Bradstreet's buttons & grafitti) and a feeling that something more is happening in the scene than depicted. The last part of that sentence is a big hitter for me. Remember how many of the pics looked liked something awesome was going on but you weren't sure what exactly? That type of art gets you thinking and for us GMs it really helps.

Oh wait... if her's was the art with the insane amount of heavy handed cross hatching then I thought that it was okay, but not as high quality as Bradstreet or Alexander.

Two different art styles, but I think they work. Allusio for the dark, Bradstreet for the grit. Love or hate Allusio's crosshatching, her art reflected SR in the sense that the pieces she did for Earthdawn were much softer and often not even in B/W ink. I always got the sense that Allusio's pieces conveyed (both figuratively and literally) the overall, smoky miasma of darkness and corruption in SR: most of her pieces are dark, misty crowd scenes. Bradstreet's art always went down to the personal level, as (if I recall) there were hardly ever more than 1 or 2 subjects "on camera" at a time. Two different art styles, two different purposes.

Too bad Bradstreet did more Vampire:The Masquerade art than he ever did SR art. If I recall, most of the Bradstreet pieces in SR2 were also from SR1, and after that, he was pretty much done with SR, Ghost only knows why.

My biggest lament with modern SR art isn't how it compares to previous SR art. It's that more often than not you can't tell who did it, due to lack of a legible signature (or sometimes lack of signature at all). For example, there were quite a few non-classical-SR-era pieces in SR4A that I really liked, only I have NO clue who to attribute them to. Same goes for the splatbooks. And also for the Eclipse Phase rulebook. I guess it's not just SR. Catalyst isn't wanting for good artists, but FASA did know how to make it easier to identify who drew what, even if it was a chunky signature that looked like it was drawn by a 5-year-old ("MIKEN" anyone? )

on the topic of art, so far i think one of the best in SR4 is part of emergence.

its the one where you have a girl next to a shop window or something, and the reflection is not matching up.

btw, how many of the artists that worked on earlier SR versions came from a B&W comics background?

and also, how much of the current SR art is delivered as color and then grayscaled, and/or delivered in a vector graphics format (where the computer do the finer points of the shading and curves)?