Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: What don't you allow?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 23 2009, 08:18 PM) *
The only two things I would really ban from a game would be empathy software/emotitoys (I would consider keeping them if they only added to gauge intentions tests), and distance strike.

Distance strike, because it lets you completely negate the other fighter's defensive ability - it's a "subtract your enemy's skill and reaction from his defense test" ability. It's too overpowered, because anyone with it has too huge of an advantage over someone who doesn't have it. Anything that becomes a "must-have", because you will get wiped out without it, is too overpowered. I don't have a problem with adepts firing chi bolts, or what have you, but as written this power is too unbalanced. It wouldn't be any worse than a gun, except that it lets you combine the devastating damage codes you can get with unarmed combat with the negation of your opponent's blocking.



Seriously? Distance Strike is no more powerful than a Submachine gun or other firearm in actual play... and the gunbunny will generally have more dice to throw than the physad using Distance Strike...

Keep the Faith
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 23 2009, 08:18 PM) *
Distance strike, because it lets you completely negate the other fighter's defensive ability - it's a "subtract your enemy's skill and reaction from his defense test" ability. It's too overpowered, because anyone with it has too huge of an advantage over someone who doesn't have it. Anything that becomes a "must-have", because you will get wiped out without it, is too overpowered. I don't have a problem with adepts firing chi bolts, or what have you, but as written this power is too unbalanced. It wouldn't be any worse than a gun, except that it lets you combine the devastating damage codes you can get with unarmed combat with the negation of your opponent's blocking.

Distance Strike is actually a very weak power for it's cost. It is remarkably easy to get similar Damage Values with a pistol or smg; a gun requires significantly less investment in resources, & has a significantly greater range.

The problem comes with Critical Strike, being the single overpowering Adept power as written (all others are okay, or to weak). Increase the cost to 0.5 per level, and reduce the maximum rank to one-half Magic (round up), and that to is no longer a problem. On a similar note, all the Adept powers with a "maximum rank 3" should be altered to "maximum rank of one-half Magic (round up)".
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Oct 23 2009, 08:29 PM) *
Distance Strike is actually a very weak power for it's cost. It is remarkably easy to get similar Damage Values with a pistol or smg; a gun requires significantly less investment in resources, & has a significantly greater range.

The problem comes with Critical Strike, being the single overpowering Adept power as written (all others are okay, or to weak). Increase the cost to 0.5 per level, and reduce the maximum rank to one-half Magic (round up), and that to is no longer a problem. On a similar note, all the Adept powers with a "maximum rank 3" should be altered to "maximum rank of one-half Magic (round up)".



That seems a pretty viable alteration...

Keep the Faith
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 23 2009, 07:24 PM) *
This is Sad...

Hey now, I'm as sad about SR4 as you are but we had enough flamewars for one lifetime years ago.

~J
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 23 2009, 08:43 PM) *
Hey now, I'm as sad about SR4 as you are but we had enough flamewars for one lifetime years ago.

~J



You misunderstand me Kagetenshi
I absolutely adore the 4th Edition Rules... So much more refined than any previously in my opinion...

Keep the Faith
Kagetenshi
<EDIT: original and most appropriate response removed for being too flamebaity>

Yes, I'd picked up on that. I was warning against reopening old wounds while also signaling my support for NotW's position. Read the archives from 2005-2006 if you want to know reasons, there's unlikely to be anything substantially new to discuss today.

~J
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 23 2009, 09:02 PM) *
<EDIT: original and most appropriate response removed for being too flamebaity>

Yes, I'd picked up on that. I was warning against reopening old wounds while also signaling my support for NotW's position. Read the archives from 2005-2006 if you want to know reasons, there's unlikely to be anything substantially new to discuss today.

~J



No Doubt... Not wanting to repoen old wounds...

Keep the Faith
Method
There are not a lot of things I ban outright, but these are some of the things I think are just dumb:

-- Emotitoys / empathy software: there is no intrigue in a game where everyone knows when everyone else is lying.
-- Stick-n-shock for anything but shotguns
-- AV ammo for anything smaller than an MMG
-- Mr. Lucky, Pornomancers and other one-trick ponies.
-- Skillsoft Shareware (aka every skill in the game at a low level *for free*).
-- Cracking: I don't care if it makes no sense- if you want programs pay for them. No one is giving the street sam free guns.

Thats the short list anyway. Probably more if I thought about it.
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (3278 @ Oct 23 2009, 09:45 PM) *
In my game, I don't allow Paul. Other than that, pretty much anything is fair game. But Paul, that's...that's a bridge too far.


Greeeaaaaat....
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Method @ Oct 23 2009, 09:19 PM) *
There are not a lot of things I ban outright, but these are some of the things I think are just dumb:

-- Emotitoys / empathy software: there is no intrigue in a game where everyone knows when everyone else is lying.
-- Stick-n-shock for anything but shotguns
-- AV ammo for anything smaller than an MMG
-- Mr. Lucky, Pornomancers and other one-trick ponies.
-- Skillsoft Shareware (aka every skill in the game at a low level *for free*).
-- Cracking: I don't care if it makes no sense- if you want programs pay for them. No one is giving the street sam free guns.

Thats the short list anyway. Probably more if I thought about it.



I don't know, the Street Sam has a veritable smorgasborg of Free Guns... just pick up what the dead guys leave behind...

Keep teh Faith
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Red-ROM @ Oct 23 2009, 06:07 PM) *
2) exploited flaw points. like sensitive system with no cyberware.


Depends on the character type. I would say make Sensitive system only worth 5 pt for Awakened or Technomancers. They make the various hacker flaws more expensive for hackers, do the same in reverse for those who NEED max Essence.


QUOTE (Method @ Oct 23 2009, 11:19 PM) *
There are not a lot of things I ban outright, but these are some of the things I think are just dumb:

...snip...

-- Cracking: I don't care if it makes no sense- if you want programs pay for them. No one is giving the street sam free guns.


I disagree with not allowing cracking. If you want to make people pay for good software make it that only up to Rating 4 can be cracked. Make the players pay for 5+ software. Explain it as the source of Rating 5+ software makes it a stone bitch to get because it is so good... Real hackers don't want everyone playing with their new shiny toy. cyber.gif
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Oct 24 2009, 05:53 AM) *
Depends on the character type. I would say make Sensitive system only worth 5 pt for Awakened or Technomancers. They make the various hacker flaws more expensive for hackers, do the same in reverse for those who NEED max Essence.


Thing is, those guys who need essence are least able to deal with essence loss as it happens. So long as you as the GM don't follow Bull's suggestion of making players deal with flaws they choose, then it's not a real disadvantage, but when you consider an awakened char taking it as a suggestion to slam his essence, then it's a nasty flaw.


QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Oct 24 2009, 05:53 AM) *
I disagree with not allowing cracking. If you want to make people pay for good software make it that only up to Rating 4 can be cracked. Make the players pay for 5+ software. Explain it as the source of Rating 5+ software makes it a stone bitch to get because it is so good... Real hackers don't want everyone playing with their new shiny toy. cyber.gif


I like to do the change up at 4. Since 4 seems to be the rating for "security" level stuff, I figure that's where they would include things like "periodically rotating hardware encrypted keys" needed to run the program. Also, that's where the price makes its jump, so needing a hardware mod, a la micro-dongle, at that stage would make sense. Whereas everything less than 4 is just a download (and 2 or less can be found as freeware with a proper datasearch.)
Red-ROM
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Oct 24 2009, 12:16 PM) *
Thing is, those guys who need essence are least able to deal with essence loss as it happens. So long as you as the GM don't follow Bull's suggestion of making players deal with flaws they choose, then it's not a real disadvantage, but when you consider an awakened char taking it as a suggestion to slam his essence, then it's a nasty flaw.


I do like to exploit flaws, but to kidnap and plant cyberware into a character while at the same time devistating their essence seems down right mean. plus, what color or depth does this flaw really add to a character? I feel like they should already have at least one piece of cyber to have an interesting story from it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Red-ROM @ Oct 24 2009, 11:02 AM) *
I do like to exploit flaws, but to kidnap and plant cyberware into a character while at the same time devistating their essence seems down right mean. plus, what color or depth does this flaw really add to a character? I feel like they should already have at least one piece of cyber to have an interesting story from it.



Everyone has their preferences, and neither point of view is really wrong in most cases... but there are ways to know that you would be impacted negatively BEFORE you get that cyberware installed... the Pre-Surgery Evaluation and medical workup would probably detect such things...

Keeep the Faith
Glyph
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Oct 23 2009, 06:29 PM) *
Distance Strike is actually a very weak power for it's cost. It is remarkably easy to get similar Damage Values with a pistol or smg; a gun requires significantly less investment in resources, & has a significantly greater range.

The problem comes with Critical Strike, being the single overpowering Adept power as written (all others are okay, or to weak). Increase the cost to 0.5 per level, and reduce the maximum rank to one-half Magic (round up), and that to is no longer a problem. On a similar note, all the Adept powers with a "maximum rank 3" should be altered to "maximum rank of one-half Magic (round up)".

So you kind of agree with my very last sentence, but think critical strike is the real culprit. Truthfully, it is only one of the things that can increase unarmed damage - there is also martial arts, bone lacing, and enhanced Strength. But it still has a precarious balance, in my opinion. You can have the range and double the attacks from guns, or the extreme damage codes from unarmed combat, or the superb defensive capabilities of two-weapon style. Distance strike, as I said, lets you keep that damage code and, instead of a 50/50 chance of getting it against an equally skilled foe, you get to pile hits on top of that damage code - because your opponent is only rolling Reaction to resist.

I dislike the power because it makes the entire subset of rules governing unarmed combat useless. Guns don't bug me so much - you can't carry them everywhere, you have a penalty for using them in close combat, and their damage is such that you can more plausibly soak it if you don't dodge it. But distance strike is something that lets you almost insta-win unarmed combat if you have it, and turns something that should have a lot of viable options into nothing but trading ki blasts if both combatants have it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 24 2009, 11:30 AM) *
So you kind of agree with my very last sentence, but think critical strike is the real culprit. Truthfully, it is only one of the things that can increase unarmed damage - there is also martial arts, bone lacing, and enhanced Strength. But it still has a precarious balance, in my opinion. You can have the range and double the attacks from guns, or the extreme damage codes from unarmed combat, or the superb defensive capabilities of two-weapon style. Distance strike, as I said, lets you keep that damage code and, instead of a 50/50 chance of getting it against an equally skilled foe, you get to pile hits on top of that damage code - because your opponent is only rolling Reaction to resist.

I dislike the power because it makes the entire subset of rules governing unarmed combat useless. Guns don't bug me so much - you can't carry them everywhere, you have a penalty for using them in close combat, and their damage is such that you can more plausibly soak it if you don't dodge it. But distance strike is something that lets you almost insta-win unarmed combat if you have it, and turns something that should have a lot of viable options into nothing but trading ki blasts if both combatants have it.



Funny, I have never really seen the issues that you are describing actually come up in play over the many years that I have played Shadowrun... That being the case, I would have to say that it is not really that big of a deal overall... I will admit that you may have had some bad experiences with the ability, but it has a significant cost and I believe that that balances it out somewhat...

Keep the Faith
Tachi
QUOTE (Screaming Eagle @ Oct 23 2009, 12:58 PM) *
*snip*
Background free characters - seriously, I don't care how "lite" you want it but give me SOMETHING to work with people. Everyone had parents and even if you are an orphan raised by Shadowrunners to do Shadowrunning thats SOMETHING (actually a full write up on such a background would probably be quite awesome). Be something other then "this is my name and this is how I kill things".

^^ What Screamer said.^^ I forgot to add this one to my list earlier. I don't allow characters for which the player hasn't answered "The Twenty Questions" at a minimum, or at least the ones that the player and I won't answer in the first session together (see next paragraph).

Also, I don't allow optimized/bad-ass characters at chargen except when GMing a one-shot. When we play a one-shot the shadowrunners need to come in prepared for the run. The rest of the time, I have my players build 'people' instead of shadowrunners. What I mean by that is that I have them build 'normal' run-of-the-mill folks. I'll usually get together with my players separately and we'll build their character using 400BP with a wide variety (read: MANY) of low rating skills and a minimum of ware. Then we'll spend several hours "running" a short adventure about how they end up in the shadows ending the session with them being introduced to or otherwise somehow ending up with the other characters. Then we all get together and play some street level arcs, slowly building up their PCs and taking on harder jobs until they become 'real' runners, taking on 'real' runs. Note that this doesn't mean they can't start with an ex-military character or a programmer or some other variation with the appropriate skills, they just don't usually get to start as the 'uber bad-ass cybernetic spec-ops armageddon-o-matic death machine deluxe" or "The Magnificent Edward", instead they get a medically discharged light infantry corporal or a corporate programmer/cubicle monkey. But that's just me, YMMV.
LurkerOutThere

Things I don't allow:

Stick-n-Shock:Don't even get me started
Possession:NO NO NO!
Anything with regeneration; NO!
Shifters: DOUBLE NO!
No edge for non free spirits.
No AI's
No free flaws, make interesting characters or not at all.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Red-ROM @ Oct 24 2009, 10:02 AM) *
I do like to exploit flaws, but to kidnap and plant cyberware into a character while at the same time devistating their essence seems down right mean. plus, what color or depth does this flaw really add to a character? I feel like they should already have at least one piece of cyber to have an interesting story from it.


There's plenty of other ways to get cybered against your wishes other than the old "you wake up with robot ears; techno music now makes more sense to you." Say you're running a snoop and steal type campaign in deep Amazonia and the mage happens to scratch his hand and get infected by a virulent poison which has already killed his hand at the nerves and is turning the blood in his arm septic. Question: how far can you get in a hostile country with a guy who must decide relatively soon whether or not to amputate the hand, or risk the arm or even death if he doesn't? And once they've lost the limb, how are they going to get out of country without getting a cyber replacement? No gene labs around to grow you a new one, Hoss, and walking through checkpoints without a hand is going to raise some questions. Turns out cyberlimbs are easy enough to come by though.. Does he get the cyber or risk everyone's safety? spin.gif


As for things I try and keep out of my game and or houserule:
1) Complicated Ammo in small Calibers - APDS in 9mm or less. Not enough mass+velocity after the sabot discards. Despite Ghost in the Shell, I'm not about to have a guy take down an armored vehicle only using an Ingram. Stick-n-Shock scales in damage to fit caliber. Reflects fact that increased size of shell = more microcapacitors.

2) Robo-Face Madness - Empathy Sensor Software distracts you too much to use your own senses/skill in face to face. You'll have to choose one or the other, (unless you're an adept with multi-tasking or have an attention co-processor,) and the software only works at half rating for meat creatures since you still have to process what the readout says in real time. Though, if you're examining recorded footage after the fact, all bonuses stack.
Having emoti-toys is going to make you look like an ass and apply an appropriate negative modifier in face to face talks more than enough to counteract their benefits. Observing a mark is different though.

3) Cracking High-grade Software - Again, software 4 and higher requires cycling hardware-based decryption to run. Cracking it requires a full shop to examine the hardware dongle and then replicate it's effects via software. Each month means a new dongle. It'd probably be easier for a hacker to just rip off their source code and write his own prog from that.

4) Overkill Without Consequence - The availability modifier for gear doesn't just change how hard it is to come by. It also changes how hard people look for you when you've put it to use. You want to put a tank-killer gun in your delivery van, fine. But if/when you use that mother outside of a war-zone, then you've just earned yourself a lot of attention. Like "president reads about it in the morning papers, makes statement to press corp by noon" kind of attention.

5) Stupid Document Failures - Fake SIN ratings aren't used for opposed tests, they're a threshold. IOW, a fake license which is better than a respective verification system isn't ever going to get flagged on a cursory pass. Though, if someone has reason to be suspicious, they can run it more than once.

6) Mandatory Mages - Mundanes and Adepts can buy and gain personal benefit from Counterspelling Foci. Of course they have to spend the karma and cheese to get it bound to them, and then they have to keep it in a FAB II bag to keep its constantly active nature from inflicting a Focus Addiction on them. I just don't like having choices foisted on me or my players.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Oct 25 2009, 09:58 AM) *
4) Overkill Without Consequence - The availability modifier for gear doesn't just change how hard it is to come by. It also changes how hard people look for you when you've put it to use. You want to put a tank-killer gun in your delivery van, fine. But if/when you use that mother outside of a war-zone, then you've just earned yourself a lot of attention. Like "president reads about it in the morning papers, makes statement to press corp by noon" kind of attention.

Did they take the Red Hot Nukes out of Fourth Edition?

(If the answer's no, it's still ok—obviously, as long as your players are informed up front and ok with it, whatever you allow or don't allow goes, but if they are still in the game you may want to note that or at least not present this as a common-sense result. Most of Seattle in canon Shadowrun 1-3 more or less is a war zone.)

~J
tagz
I don't allow:
  • Rules from any supplement I have not read yet.
  • Shapeshifters
  • Flaws taken knowing they will never come up in game
  • After everything I've read here, likely won't allow emotitoys as written
  • Actions without consequences. My characters poisoned a water supply in an Ares arco. They didn't get caught... But yoou better believe that's not the end of that. Kids died. It may be several runs down the road, but someone will find something and when they do...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (tagz @ Oct 25 2009, 06:01 PM) *
I don't allow:
  • Rules from any supplement I have not read yet.
  • Shapeshifters
  • Flaws taken knowing they will never come up in game
  • After everything I've read here, likely won't allow emotitoys as written
  • Actions without consequences. My characters poisoned a water supply in an Ares arco. They didn't get caught... But yoou better believe that's not the end of that. Kids died. It may be several runs down the road, but someone will find something and when they do...



Yeah... There should always be consequences for actions taken by Shadowrunners...

Keep the Faith
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 25 2009, 10:54 AM) *
Most of Seattle in canon Shadowrun 1-3 more or less is a war zone.


Yeah, so the president giving a speech is hyperbole. I suppose you'd have to do something like use a ship's main laser to cut a few blocks of apartment buildings in half to warrant that. But even wars have levels of escalation. You start shooting Ringu at Knight Errant, and they're going to have a strong want to see your ass dead. They aren't going to suffer you trying that again. Bridge burned.
Besides, I just expect responses to reflect rarity of gear. I mean, it's reasonable to assume that anything goes missing which has an availability of 20 or more, there's someone whose job it is to find it. When it pops up in public, they'll come running. And the attention gained is not just from official sources. Word hits the street you've got some top level gear, and the leaches will come to wrap your heels. It does terrible things to your ability to shit where you eat.
Ravor
I don't allow characters that couldn't have survived in the Sixth World before they found a team, yes this means that I believe Shadowrunners should tend to be generalist with a couple areas of expertize as opposed to specialists.

I also don't allow people to bring IC conflicts into the OOC Realm. In my campaigns the proper responce to suspecting that a fellow teammate is planning on raping, murdering, and then eating you (And not necessarily in that order.) is to shoot him/her/it in the face multiple times, but none of the Players is allowed to hold a grudge over the incident.
Paul
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 28 2009, 02:35 AM) *
...but none of the Players is allowed to hold a grudge over the incident.


That's a hard one for a lot of people, separating meta-knowledge from IC knowledge.
Dakka Dakka
And even if that works, it does not mean the rest of the group will not break up for IC reasons. Most of my characters would not like to work with people who shot their teammates in the face on suspicion.
Ravor
True and true, although I tend run "character pools" because steady "Shadow Teams" streches my suspensive of disbelief in a Pink Mohawk world and I make it clear to everyone beforehand that I run an extremely ammoral no holds barred game where PvP is a very real possiblity. Thus far, I've actually found PvP to be relatively rare.
Tech_Rat
For those saying no to the Shapeshifers... Why not? If it's for background reasons, require anyone who plays it automatically takes the Hunted negative quality. One for the fur, one for the 'potential genetech' research. Think of the bounties on the character. Enemies go from group enemies, pissed corp sec, enemy runner teams, to include bounty hunters and humanis policlubs. My shifter was a phys ad, hunted, computer illiterate, and a few other things. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
It is not a balance problem but has to do with the fact that in SR shapeshifters are unusually intelligent animals that can sometimes look like humans. This is exceedingly difficult to roleplay so a lot of GM forbid them.
Additionally sometthing as conspicuous as a shapeshifter does not fit well into a shadowrun team or the community in general. A lot of criminals would simply whack the shapeshifter over the head and sell him, as soon as he is identified. Assensing does that.
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Dec 4 2009, 01:37 PM) *
It is not a balance problem but has to do with the fact that in SR shapeshifters are unusually intelligent animals that can sometimes look like humans. This is exceedingly difficult to roleplay so a lot of GM forbid them.



Precisely, something like an SR shapeshifter is going to have a highly inhuman mentality, roleplaying them is difficult, this is why I only allow them for players I know can handle the stretch and put together a full write up on the potential character. Even then it isn't a sure thing.
Medicineman
I'm dancing in unison with DakkaDakka
Shapeshifter are Animals ,and its very difficult (for me personally too difficult) to play them correctly
Its also very difficult to explain,why an animal stays in a Megaplex and keeps on Running,when its natural habitat is outside
and third but maybe the biggest Point. I've so far only once encountered a SS Player that didn't use his Char as a Powergamer (but I must admit that my last experience with Shapeshifter was in SR3 I think they're not so "mighty" anymore in SR4A)

Hough !
Medicineman
Method
Generally speaking most of the alternate character concepts don't lend themselves to a team-based game.
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Dec 4 2009, 01:46 PM) *
I'm dancing in unison with DakkaDakka
Shapeshifter are Animals ,and its very difficult (for me personally too difficult) to play them correctly
Its also very difficult to explain,why an animal stays in a Megaplex and keeps on Running,when its natural habitat is outside
and third but maybe the biggest Point. I've so far only once encountered a SS Player that didn't use his Char as a Powergamer (but I must admit that my last experience with Shapeshifter was in SR3 I think they're not so "mighty" anymore in SR4A)

Hough !
Medicineman


They've been depowered, but not as significantly as some people think in my opinion...
Tech_Rat
Yeah, I can see some of the RP issues being prohibitive. They aren't _too_ powerful comparatively. What dropped me was a Toxic Shaman casting a Toxic Fireball. smile.gif Body at three and Mystic armor at four... Yeah-No. Bounty hunters were always going after me, and soon they were using silver-powdered gloves/cyber fists, silver bullets, and silver lined swords. My regen was useless. Especially[GMs, feel free to use this] a silver powder EM grenade. Basically replace a portion of the aluminum slivers with silver slivers. Yeah, that hurt. Anywho. Basically have to try for a more basic[not primitive] mindset, and go for them being at least a few years old, so they have some experience and knowledge with humans prior to gameplay.
Ol' Scratch
A race is a race. It's not a personality archetype. Yes, many shapeshifters will have trouble adapting to a metahuman lifestyle, but not all of them will. Some will even embrace it. The notable shapeshifters listed in the Runner's Companion even demonstrate some of these. Ulric is even noted as being a very capable field commander, which is something bears aren't exactly known for. Yes, shapeshifters are Awakened animals, but they do have metahuman intellects and are fully capable of adapting to metahuman society.

It's absurd to say othewise, and even more absurd to say things like "play them right." Or, what, playing a Troll Face who's smooth, intelligent, and sophisticated is playing a Troll wrong? Because they're all supposed to be socially-inept and mentally-retarded outcasts? Same exact difference.
Saint Sithney
Well, Doc, it's not always how a guy acts, but how he reacts. In other words, you can choose how you interact with the world, but you can't choose how the world interacts with you. So, if a Smooth Troll Face acted like he'd never received any sort of discrimination, I'd not believe it. Though I do agree with you that shapeshifters aren't just animals, they're animals which turn into people. Why wouldn't they be curious to see how people live? A good RPer can explain the whys and make it work.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Dec 4 2009, 01:53 PM) *
A race is a race. It's not a personality archetype. Yes, many shapeshifters will have trouble adapting to a metahuman lifestyle, but not all of them will. Some will even embrace it. The notable shapeshifters listed in the Runner's Companion even demonstrate some of these. Ulric is even noted as being a very capable field commander, which is something bears aren't exactly known for. Yes, shapeshifters are Awakened animals, but they do have metahuman intellects and are fully capable of adapting to metahuman society.

It's absurd to say othewise, and even more absurd to say things like "play them right." Or, what, playing a Troll Face who's smooth, intelligent, and sophisticated is playing a Troll wrong? Because they're all supposed to be socially-inept and mentally-retarded outcasts? Same exact difference.


There is a fundamental difference between something that is metahuman and something that is not metahuman, soemthing that thinks in human terms and thinks in animalistic terms, that's not to say that a shifter couldn't learn otherwise but their nurture enviroment is going to predispose them to think in another way. In particular your citing the example of a person who is General officer equivalent implying he's been around and doing that for many many years not someone fresh out of the treeline.
Jericho Alar
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Dec 4 2009, 03:07 PM) *
There is a fundamental difference between something that is metahuman and something that is not metahuman, soemthing that thinks in human terms and thinks in animalistic terms, that's not to say that a shifter couldn't learn otherwise but their nurture enviroment is going to predispose them to think in another way. In particular your citing the example of a person who is General officer equivalent implying he's been around and doing that for many many years not someone fresh out of the treeline.


Shapeshifters have language, can reason, can tool-use. Just think with that little reptilian brain near the back of your skull and you're good to go.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Dec 4 2009, 02:07 PM) *
There is a fundamental difference between something that is metahuman and something that is not metahuman, soemthing that thinks in human terms and thinks in animalistic terms, that's not to say that a shifter couldn't learn otherwise but their nurture enviroment is going to predispose them to think in another way. In particular your citing the example of a person who is General officer equivalent implying he's been around and doing that for many many years not someone fresh out of the treeline.

It's a good thing new characters in Shadowrun aren't "fresh out of the threeline." Characters start off as experienced, fully realized characters and people. Hell, most of my regular characters are usually in their 30s or 40s when I start a new game, and I've played a senile old man (inspired by Chiun from The Destroyer) before, too. So yes, my citing of a person who is a general is equivalent to a player character if they've been active and living in metahuman society for some time.

As mentioned, there's a difference between acting and reacting. A player with a shapeshifter character can be so human as to fool anyone if that's the type of character he is, but if someone finds out who he really is there'll be consequences and reactions to deal with. Yes, a shapeshifter will often have some quirks associated with their animal instincts, but those can be as minor as any other metahuman's quirks or as obvious as the player wants to make 'em.

Again: A race is not a personality archetype or stereotypes. At all. No more than all dwarves have to be surly miners who hate elves, or all orks have to be street punks who are way too into the Orxploitation movement. If you're going to hold all shapeshifter character to one stereotype, you damn well hold all characters to their associated stereotypes, too.

(Oh, and when/if you reply, be sure to tell us how your best friend is a shapeshifter. Racism, as a person, is awesome. Even when talking about fictional characters.)
LurkerOutThere
A race could very well affect personality when the character in question is not actually a person! Wern't you the one bitching just a little while ago that shifter characters put signifigant point drains on them without an efficient benefit for their powers? That right there implies assuming all else being equal a shifter character is going to have less skills and resources then a likewise built human mundane. Yet for some reason you want to say that a starting shifter is directly equivalent to a shifter that has literally risen as high as he can possibly go within his particular paramilitary organization. An organization which would presumably feature other awakened and metahumans. You can compare your runners or play them however you like, but your example your trying to pass off as typical is leterally A-typical by the books on wording.
Jericho Alar
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Dec 4 2009, 03:51 PM) *
A race could very well affect personality when the character in question is not actually a person!


shifters are both sentient and sapient, I fail to see the distinction you're trying to draw.

[edit]claiming alien intelligence is one thing; but most roleplaying games presuppose the ability to play a wide variety of alien intelligences, and GMs are expected to routinely do so even in this game. (see: elves in this and that other game, vampires, supernatural beings in general, otaku/technomancers, dragons, etc.)
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Dec 4 2009, 02:51 PM) *
A race could very well affect personality when the character in question is not actually a person! Wern't you the one bitching just a little while ago that shifter characters put signifigant point drains on them without an efficient benefit for their powers? That right there implies assuming all else being equal a shifter character is going to have less skills and resources then a likewise built human mundane. Yet for some reason you want to say that a starting shifter is directly equivalent to a shifter that has literally risen as high as he can possibly go within his particular paramilitary organization. An organization which would presumably feature other awakened and metahumans. You can compare your runners or play them however you like, but your example your trying to pass off as typical is leterally A-typical by the books on wording.

What the Hell are you on about?

Pay attention to this part because it's about to blow your mind (apparently): Shadowrunners are atypical characters! Most people have issues about commiting murder, breaking into top secret facilities, pissing off corporate security forces, and flaunting the law. Are you going to go on a bitchfest about how they're not acting like typical metahumans? If not, why the Hell are you doing it with shapeshifter characters?!?

As I've said twice now: A race is not a personality profile. No matter what racist bullshit you have stuck in your head. Not all white people are trailer trash rednecks. Not all black people like eating fried chicken with hot sauce. Not all Asians are mathematical whizkids. Not all Amerinds are expert trackers. And not all shapeshifters are raving, bestial critters just barely holding on to a semblence of sentience and sanity. Some -- just like some of the ones listed in the fraggin' books -- are well-adjusted, relativey normal individuals. They just happen to have been born as an animal. That's what they are, not who they are.

And as I've also said before: If you're going to stick to this pigheaded and blatantly ignorant view, you should be doing the same thing for every other character race in the game. Just remind me to never play in a game with you, cause I'll be pretty pissed if someone tries telling me how my character should act and behave. Especially if it's as one-dimensional and painfully ridiculous as the one you're trying to paint for shapeshifters.
Method
Heres a whacky idea- I would bet that the shapeshifters that come "out of the treeline" are the ones that have some affinity with metahumanity and want to interact with it... wink.gif

My objection to shifter PCs is more so that they (like drakes, AI's, Free Spirits, sentient paracritters, infected and even technomancers or characters with certain Qualities like high level enemies or amnesia) come with significant character and game world related baggage that tends to detract from a team-oriented game and monopolize the GMs time and energy. They are fine for solo games, if the GM wants to deal with them, but in a team-oriented game the GM is forced to either address these issues (at the expense of the rest of the group) or ignore them (AKA give the shifter PC a pass on significant drawbacks of the character type). This is not to say that a creative GM could not use one character as a plot hook to engage the whole team, but its just generally not something I want to deal with.

But I should point out that despite this I have never barred shifters from any game (I've only ever had one, in an SR3 game).
Tech_Rat
@Method-- My GM would always send a few bounty hunters[out of the sample characters pages with a few differences] with added karma to match us in power to _augment_ the capabilities and strength of what we were already facing in the normal campaign. Didn't help that my fox was a combat monster.
Jericho Alar
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 4 2009, 04:57 PM) *
My objection to shifter PCs is more so that they (like drakes, AI's, Free Spirits, sentient paracritters, infected and even technomancers or characters with certain Qualities like high level enemies or amnesia) come with significant character and game world related baggage that tends to detract from a team-oriented game and monopolize the GMs time and energy.


setting aside that SR3 shifters dominated most tables by virtue of having a legitimately broken statline, the issues with corporeal, sentient and sapient, living creatures (Shifters, Drakes, some Infected, Technomancers, etc.) aren't particularly more difficult to deal with than the racism against your run of the mill 5 metatypes.*

if your table mostly avoids dealing with racism beyond the occasional humanis screamsheet headline then it may seem to be more of a burden; but when you consider that the typical shadowrunner is a misfit socially if not physically, adding some physical misfits into the mix doesn't really burden the game that much more, they just get hated for different reasons.


*indeed, some of the specialist types in SR4 appear to be *more* accepted in many plexes than a troll would be in say, Neotokyo; or than trolls/orks were treated generally in older editions.

Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 4 2009, 01:57 PM) *
My objection to shifter PCs is more so that they (like drakes, AI's, Free Spirits, sentient paracritters, infected and even technomancers or characters with certain Qualities like high level enemies or amnesia) come with significant character and game world related baggage that tends to detract from a team-oriented game and monopolize the GMs time and energy.



Man, if a guy is excited enough about playing a certain character type, I'll work anything into a game. For some people, it takes a specific thing to get them interested and keep them involved in a game, so, whatever that may be, I am gonna hook that in like it's my duty. Of course, I'm driving this buggy, but if there's call to make stops in Functionally-Impaired-Character Town I'll detour so long as it's not too far out of the way.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Dec 4 2009, 03:23 PM) *
What the Hell are you on about?

Pay attention to this part because it's about to blow your mind (apparently):

As I've said twice now: A race is not a personality profile. No matter what racist bullshit you have stuck in your head. Not all white people are trailer trash rednecks. Not all black people like eating fried chicken with hot sauce. Not all Asians are mathematical whizkids. Not all Amerinds are expert trackers. And not all shapeshifters are raving, bestial critters just barely holding on to a semblence of sentience and sanity. Some -- just like some of the ones listed in the fraggin' books -- are well-adjusted, relativey normal individuals. They just happen to have been born as an animal. That's what they are, not who they are.


For a guy who preaches often and unabashedly about freeing ones mind from established norms I think it's you and not me that's stuck. The material has stated shifter thought processes and mentalities are different from that of a human, that means as much as you decide to have a coronary about it there is literally no baseline in real life for comparison. For the record the same could be said for free spirits, AI's and anything else in the setting that doesn't start out or is templated as metahuman. To put it in plain english in order to be racist shifters would have to be of the same race as humans or within the conventions of shadowrun humans, but actually if I'm guilty of anything I guess to be properly accurate (as much as can be said in the context of theoretical game characters) species-est. The game material makes the point of stating that shifters, AI and free spirits are not metahuman and by a large don't think in many of the same terms they do. That's not to say that they might not fit in with society, especially in the loose context of a runner group but what the original objection is so few people even want to try and get it right. But rather then do that or explore the possible difference you'd rather take the lazy route 'My shifter thinks exactly like a human being and is indistinguishable because don't you know that's so unique"

On the positive side under 4th edition with shifters finally being not quite so rediculous at least you migth believe the guy who tells you he wants to play one for the roleplaying aspects.

Method
QUOTE (Jericho Alar)
the issues with corporeal, sentient and sapient, living creatures (Shifters, Drakes, some Infected, Technomancers, etc.) aren't particularly more difficult to deal with than the racism against your run of the mill 5 metatypes.

So you're saying that in your game having a dude that can turn into a dracoform is of no more consequence than troll being in the wrong part of town? Interesting. At any rate I'm not just talking about racism. IMG trolls aren't actively hunted down to be captured or killed by any number of factions, but thats just me. Plus metahuman racism is all well and good, but when every character is subject to a different flavor of "racism" the game can quickly degenerate into trying to figure out who can go where and do what based upon who hates them the least or who's hunting them or all kinds of other shit. Personally, I don't enjoy that kind of game, but then metahuman racism isn't a center piece in my campaign- its a background element.

And I will say again that in a solo game or adventure these characters are fine. They might also work in certain specialized games or with certain play styles. But to restate my original point *generally speaking* alternate character concepts don't lend themselves to your standard team-oriented game.
Jericho Alar
well, I did say 'particularly' -> it's more difficult but in a general way: the negative reaction to the exotic metatypes/alternate races will tend to be more immediately physical and more present, but when it comes to the typical run of the mill activity: How many runners are really out and about in public that often if they're not the face?

necessarily a dracoform isn't likely to live in a normal neighborhood, but neither is a typical street sam with 0.1 essence.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 4 2009, 10:40 PM) *
So you're saying that in your game having a dude that can turn into a dracoform is of no more consequence than troll being in the wrong part of town?


Keep in mind that in order to avoid becoming entangled in one's clothing (if new_body < armor value -> take [armor] damage and become entangled, if new_body > armor -> destroyed armor)* a drake would have to be naked (or nearly naked). When they shift back they'll be naked anyway.

*Based on a response I got from Tyger Eyes about what happens to worn items when a shifter shifts.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012