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kevyn668
I remember back in the day it seemed like if you planned on working the streets you needed CitySpeak. Has SR moved away from it or what?
Raptor1033
my gm ruled that it was a specialization of english and if you didn't know it but knew english you had a +2 modifier to interpret what the other guy's saying. i've only had one or two characters that spoke it, both gangers.
Munchkinslayer
Wasn't old school SR city speak like P.K. Dick's? Ya know, from "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" If you didn't sling the lingo, you were screwed. It was such a mishmash of actual languages, bastardized languages, and slang. It was'nt a specialization IIRC. But christ, it's been forever so I could be wrong.
Aidley
You know, none of my current characters has it. english seems to do well enough for most circumstances, and where that fails, japanes &/or sperithiel tend to do the trick.

in my copy of nsrcg, it's listed as a specialisation of english, right along with deckerese.

I don't know if that helps any or adds more fuel to the fire.

I guess it's up to the gm to decide how cityspeak is used, if at all. smile.gif
kevyn668
QUOTE
Munchkinslayer Posted on Jan 31 2004, 03:11 PM
  Wasn't old school SR city speak like P.K. Dick's? Ya know, from "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" If you didn't sling the lingo, you were screwed. It was such a mishmash of actual languages, bastardized languages, and slang. It was'nt a specialization IIRC. But christ, it's been forever so I could be wrong. 


Thats the way I always viewed it. Exactly the way, as a matter of fact. I'm glad I'm no the only one!

It seems that now CitySpeak is like a hardcore slang. You can get by w/o knowing it. boooo
Aidley
got one question for the advocates of cityspeak as a runner necessity.

why would a johnson necessarily speak it?

I understand how it can be a lingua franca between metavariants and different races, in much the same way that 'common' is in the dungeoun crawlers.

But i've never really understood why a johnson would use it - especially if they were from a corp setting. Then mightn't english or japanese be their language of preference?

-- more fat to chew on --

kevyn668
A green Johnson would usen't use it. A veteran Johnson might know it and use it depending on the type of runners he hires. It might make a good impression on the runners if he could "talk the talk". Or put him in a better bargining position if he can understand what the runners are saying about him.

I meant the original post to refer to runners, really. Most gangers should speak CitySpeak as thier primary language--well, smaller gangs and gangs from the Barrens. Not so much the NovaRich. Though they'd probably speak it in addition to the 3 other languages they know or have it on a lingua soft. Fraggin soc's.

I was thinking that runners tend to deal w/ (and/or be) the scum of society.
Aidley
cool.

so i guess it's like latin in that respect. almost totally useless outside of specific circumstances, but incredibly cool to know in the right circles. wink.gif
kevyn668
whoa, let me clarify before someone takes a swing: I don't think its a neccessary for everyrunner to have. I just think a lot more importance was placed on having it back in the day.

Aidley
swing?

this is fascinating. we're having a lively adult discussion about something we're both interested in, and I'm yet to come even remotely near close to taking offence. And i sincerely apologise if you have taken it.

this is wonderful, I'm playing with my vocab a bit, and it's nice to se replies jump up as soon as i refresh the main page.

thanks, for keeping a humble strine chicky entertained.
Lilt
I doubt Jhonsons would speak it. They would understand it, but I just can't see Mr Jhonson trying to talk the talk to impress runners, why would he? He's not gonna get the price of the run down. It could also ruin his credibility if he used out of date lingo or talked in cityspeak, then blatantly failed to understand what one of the runners said in cityspeak. Also the sight of a corper in a suit speaking with street slang may just be silly enough to ruin his credibility in the first place.

[edit]According to P91 of SR3, Cityspeak is a lingo(specialisation) of English. I also find the last paragraph where it says that Cityspeak and Netspeak incorporate visual clues interesting. I have this image of a corper in a pristine suit suddeny using mixtures of Ali-G and gangster-rap hand symbols/phrases whilst describing a run to the runners.[/edit]
kevyn668
@ lilt: Depends on the game and Johnson, I guess. I was just theorizing...

@ Aidley: I'm so sorry, dude! I'm not offended at all. My earlier post was to avoid someone posting "There's no need for a runner to have CitySpeak, because..." It wasn't meant to be directed at you. We're cool. There's no tension. smile.gif
BTW: "swing" as in, to punch. or "swing a fist at my head". So ka?
RangerJoe
I think you're right-- there has been a big move away from cityspeak in the recent SR sourcebooks and adventure books. All of a sudden everyone is speaking the Queen's own English in easily understodd mid-western accents (something about a "newsfeed" casually refering to "an astral rift" just bothers me...)

The closest recent SR products have gotten to a feel for lingo is the insistence on having local guides in strange running climates (eg: Yucatan, Antartica, etc.) What they forget is that the Barrens are also a strange running climate. smile.gif

For a great primer in some less-often used cityspeak (stuff that even the most on-line player won't pick up from the digital lexicons), check out the novel "He, She, and It." It's sort of the human-meat of the cyberpunk world (that is, it's "the other, other cyberpunk") and has a good intro to why city speak is important, as well as a short dictionary. It's closer to A Clockwork Orange argot than the heavily Japanese influenced SR cityspeak. My favorite part of it is that "the person you are sleeping with" == "my duffel." A) It gives new meaning to the term "humping a duffel," and B) I must not slip and call the new lady-friend "my duffel" to her face, lest she look very very very confused...

Also:

Sprawl == "the Glop"
Man/Male == "rod"
Woman/Female == "nook"
Money/Cred == "betty" (don't ask)
good/quality == "chill/cold/frigid/any other words relating to cold"
bad/counterfeit == "hot/etc. see above."

there's more to come when I get my copy back

Oh, here's the details:

He, She and It, By Marge Piercy (who claims never to have read any Gibson or Stevenson.... yeah....). pub Alfred A. Knopf, 446 pp., avail in paperback and hardcover
John Campbell
QUOTE (Aidley)
I understand how it can be a lingua franca between metavariants and different races, in much the same way that 'common' is in the dungeoun crawlers.

Unlike those dungeon crawlers, the different metaraces in Shadowrun don't have separate languages. They speak the same languages that their human neighbors speak. There is no "Dwarvish" or "Orcish" language... a French dwarf will speak French, not Dwarvish; an ork from Aztlan will speak Spanish, not Orkish. And while there is an "Elvish" language, Sperethiel is a millennia-dead language preserved in amber by those pointy-eared immortal wankers, and I suspect it's actually spoken about as widely as Klingon or Sindarin. It certainly shouldn't be the primary language of anyone outside the Tirs, and probably not for most Tir residents, either... your typical elf from Cleveland is going to speak English just like the troll next door, not Sperethiel.
Moonstone Spider
Didn't Dunkelzahn's will mention an Orcish language as well?
Abstruse
Yeah, there was one in the 4th Age apparently, but no speaks it now. Give them 10 years or so to translate it though...

I never saw Cityspeak as a language per se but more as a dialect on crack. Ever seen Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels? The scene in the pub where Danny John-Jules's character (aka Cat from Red Dwarf) is explaining how the guy lit some dude on fire for changing the TV from his football match (that's "soccer" for you yanks). He's definately speaking English, but you can't understand a word of it from all the slang and regional terms he's using. But if you pay close enough attention and get him to slow down a bit, you might be able to pick out what he's talking about. That's what Cityspeak's always been to me. Slang that's devolved so far that it's almost a second language and definately its own dialect.

The Abstruse One
John Campbell
Yeah, but it doesn't have any native speakers. I've not seen any indication that anyone's trying to resurrect it as an active language rather than a historical curiosity, either. I think Dunkie was just pointing out that the elves aren't as special as they think they are, not trying to reintroduce the Fourth World-era orkish language to active use.
Abstruse
But you just KNOW some Orcish policlub is going to latch onto an Orcish language and start speaking it as soon as they can to try to "rally the troops".

The Abstruse One
Phaeton
QUOTE (Aidley @ Jan 31 2004, 10:19 AM)
You know, none of my current characters has it. english seems to do well enough for most circumstances, and where that fails, japanes &/or sperithiel tend to do the trick.

in my copy of nsrcg, it's listed as a specialisation of english, right along with deckerese.

I don't know if that helps any or adds more fuel to the fire.

I guess it's up to the gm to decide how cityspeak is used, if at all. smile.gif

I wonder what Deckerese would be like...As long as it isn't anything like hax0r or AOL n00bspeke, I won't worry. eek.gif

EDIT: Abtruse - ...What about Trog?
John Campbell
QUOTE (Abstruse)
But you just KNOW some Orcish policlub is going to latch onto an Orcish language and start speaking it as soon as they can to try to "rally the troops".

And some idealist will probably found an "ork nation", and make Orkish the official language, and there'll be a few speakers there... but it'll be a second language for them, and even their kids will have to speak another language to communicate with anyone outside their tiny patch of land. And the vast majority of orks will continue speaking their native languages, and maybe use Orkish to name their kids, to give them a link to "their heritage", but they won't know any words but the few they looked up on their "Orkish Baby Names" chip, and they certainly won't be using it day-to-day.
Dogsoup
QUOTE (John Campbell)
/...and even their kids will have to speak another language to communicate with anyone outside their tiny patch of land.

Goes for most of the world. And there's a lot of minority languages and activity to preserve them. Sheesh, we got three (if not more) "microlanguages" just in Sweden.

I doubt a sovereign "orcish" land though, mebbe cascade ork could try something...
But the one thing I wonder: what would the "cultural heritage" from ED consist of: Wasn't the main career path for orcs in ED raider? smile.gif
locomotiveman
I've always seen it as like jive and ebonics, and other such languges, perhaps mixed together. Or Sprawl from Neromancer.
Glyph
On Johnsons speaking it, it depends. Most of them, even if they understand it, won't deign to actually speak it. To me, the whole point of a Johnson is to be this big, intimidating suit. They would go out of their way to show how corporate they are - they want the runners to be the ones who feel awkward, clumsy, and out of place in dealing with them. If they try to speak in the runners' lingo, that puts them at ease, and gives the runners back their home turf advantage.

However, I could see a double-dealing or deceptive Johnson using Cityspeak lingo if he was posing as someone more "street", like pretending to be an organized crime figure. I could also see a Johnson dryly interjecting some lingo if a runner does something like make a sarcastic comment in lingo and think it'll go over the Johnson's head.
Fortune
QUOTE (Aidley @ Feb 1 2004, 03:30 AM)
thanks, for keeping a humble strine chicky entertained.

Most people won't get that. Hell, you'd be lucky if they pick up on the 'chicky' comment. wink.gif
Aidley
QUOTE (Aidley @ Feb 1 2004, 03:30 AM)
thanks, for keeping a humble strine chicky entertained.

Most people won't get that. Hell, you'd be lucky if they pick up on the 'chicky' comment.


allow me to translate:

thanks for amusing the australian female. (who understands the term 'swing' but not it's useage in relation to the topic)

Fortune
LOL! biggrin.gif

Now would you mind explaining just why you are cleaning those condoms?
RedmondLarry
I think 3rd edition simply handles City Speak wrong. It should not be a specialization of English, in my opinion. I believe it should be closer to Spanish and a mix of the asian languages than to English.

More comments can be found in SR Language List.
John Campbell
There should actually probably be significant regional variation. The exact composition of any given city's Cityspeak should be dependent on the demographics of that particular city's population. Most (former) US cities should have a largely English-based Cityspeak, with Spanish more dominant in the southern regions (probably even the majority partner in some places... the Southwest, South Florida), Asian languages more dominant on the West Coast, European and Middle Eastern languages more dominant on the East Coast, and so on.

Someone who's fluent in Seattle Cityspeak, which is probably fairly low Spanish content and fairly high Asian influence would be fairly confused by LA Cityspeak, which would have similar levels of Asian influence but a much higher Spanish content, and utterly lost in Miami Cityspeak, which would probably be closer to Spanish than to English, with almost no Asian influence at all.

And, of course, when figuring out where to classify Cityspeak, there's always the question of whether it's actually possible to stuff enough foreign terminology into English to make it stop being English. We've already got, by far, the largest vocabulary of any language in the world, and most of it didn't originate with that minor Germanic language called Ænglisc. Assimilating words from any language we can get to hold still long enough for us to rifle through its dictionary and make off with anything that looks useful is what we do best. biggrin.gif
Kagetenshi
Strine was of moderate difficulty if that. Chicky was about as difficult to get as someone referring to themself as a "guy".

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Chicky was about as difficult to get as someone referring to themself as a "guy".

As evidenced by this post:
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 1 2004, 03:57 AM)
@ Aidley: I'm so sorry, dude!

biggrin.gif
Sunday_Gamer
I laughed when I saw the "new" languages.

City speak is a specialization of English? Sooooo if you speak english, you also speak Cityspeak and Magespeak and every other speak.

How lame is THAT?

We chose to ignore them.

Cityspeak is it's own language, someone needs to watch Blade Runner/read Phillip K. Dick again.

Kong
Glav
if you knew Seattle Cityspeak, you'd know a good portion of english, I'd agree. You'd be able to understand most portions of regular english discussion. John had a good point. If you knew San Francisco Cityspeak, I'd suspect it would be a spanish derivitive, and Tokyo Cityspeak would be a japanese derivitive...

If you look at it that way, then it's really just a specialization of the local language.

Or, you could look at "cityspeak" being general 'popular' terms. Take for example MTV today. TV in general, anyway. Whenever something 'new' and 'exciting' happens on TV, it spreads around, becoming part of the 'cityspeak' offshot language. "WHUZZuuuPPpp", for example, I'd classify as part of cityspeak. Trid would probably contribute quite a bit to that kind of language. Since simmilar trid shows are probably broadcast all around the world, things like that will most likely infiltrate worldwide cityspeaks, and should be taken into account.

But yes, I agree: not much of a mention to "Cityspeak" (or racism, really, I've noticed) has been mentioned in the source materials. Last time I had a character with cityspeak (both my own, or a runner I GM'ed for) was a long time ago.
Aidley
LOL!

Now would you mind explaining just why you are cleaning those condoms?


actually, it's part of an old conversation with a friend of mine. I think i was saying something about how certain elitist types on a MB he was frequenting at the time had thought they'd got the better of him, with quips along the lines of 'n00b l0$3r $uX0r!!11!!LOL!!11!'

I like to think i have a way with words. wink.gif
kevyn668
QUOTE
Fortune Posted on Feb 1 2004, 06:22 AM
  QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Chicky was about as difficult to get as someone referring to themself as a "guy".



As evidenced by this post:
QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 1 2004, 03:57 AM)
@ Aidley: I'm so sorry, dude!


Just for the record: it was pretty obvious to me that Aidley is a chic. If not in this post, than certianly in others. She did post a link to her RPing history in her first post to DS...I was just adding a little more slang. smile.gif



Kagetenshi
A chic? A chic what? wink.gif

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
A chic? A chic what?

A chic...let! wink.gif
Siege
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 3 2004, 03:04 AM)
A chic? A chic what?

A chic...let! wink.gif

Small, round, slips in the mouth easily...

Janet Jackson eat your heart out! grinbig.gif

-Siege
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