Can someone please tell me which skill is applicable for the use of Hand Razors?

By RAW it says Blades specifically, but the wording of Unarmed Combat is so vague that you could argue the skill of Unarmed Combat can also be used for hand razors as well. This hasn't been clarified between SR4 or SR4A either.

- J.

We play it as blades since hand razors are ultimately .. well, blades. that and it says they use the blades skill. *Shrugs*

If you wanted to make it unarmed combat I don't think it would really make a difference balance-wise, a player with hand razors is unlikely to fight without them extended in situations where it really matters, so either skill is probably fair (and given the choice between making someone with hand razors also proficient with swords versus also proficient with their fists.. well, persuasive arguments could be made!)

Like you said, it says to use the Blades skill as per the description for the Blades skill. It's hard to argue that point. Since it makes about as much sense as several other weapon skills, just go with it. I mean, a Savalette Guardian is a BF capable pistol that uses the Pistols skill, but a Ceska Black Skorpion is a BF capable pistol that uses the Automatics skill. Then you have the Remington Roomsweeper which is basically a sawed-off shotgun that uses the Pistols skill while an actual sawed-off shotgun uses the Longarms skill. Consistant logic doesn't really factor into anything in this game. Heck, I'm still trying to figure out firing a heavy assault rifle and a light machine gun requires two completely and (going by the rules for Group Skills here) unrelated skills.

Is it possible that they're an exotic melee weapon? Having knives sticking out of your hands would require some more extensive training than just punches or kicks, and different training than a knife or a sword.

Hand razors are small blades at the fingertip used for lateral cuts in vulnerable areas of the body (throat, eyes, wrists...).

It is IMHO the kind of techniques and motions that are relevants to the use of handheld razor blades or possibly small knives, but would be totally useless with a bladeless hand (scratching the guy with normal nails), so grouping them with Blades rather than Unarmed makes sense.

If I remember correctly in SR3 cyber-xeapons combat was a specific skill you coulds specialize (spurs, hand razors...)

Err. To nip some of this confusion in the bud, here's the description of the skill in question.

Blades (Agility)
The Blades skill governs the use of hand-held melee weapons that have a sharpened edge or point. This skill allows a character to use various knives, swords, and axes effectively. This skill is used for cyber-blades implanted in the hands or forearms, but not other areas of the body.

That's about as cut and dry as it gets.

*Drum roll*

From a purely metagaming point of view, I think having them tied to unarmed is probably quite adventageous. It gives you a better melee defense if you have not already popped the blades. Also, if the user is in melee and not trying to scratch someones face off, then they probably want to use nonlethal force, for which unarmed combat could be great?

Whether tieing them to unarmed is a good house rule is really up to the above point?

From a 'reality' point of view I'm with Dr.Funkenstein, lots of rules stuff doesn't bear that close an inspection. But then why let reality get in the way of shooting at Dragons with SAMs?

You can use Both skills
Whatever suits you better

with no preferable Dance
Medicineman

I've highlighted the relevant part in bold, the RAW has solved your delema:


No unarmed combat for you my friend.

Yeah, I think Unarmed is only really for shock gloves/hands and, well, actual unarmed combat.

Someone with a cyberblade is certainly considered armed. With a shock glove I can see how that still counts as being unarmed.

Bye
Thanee

in 3rd ed. you could go with +1power +1damage.
as that is what claws gave in bonus to critters.

I think there's good reason to govern them under exotic melee weapons....

Hand Razors: Hand razors are 2.5-centimeter, chromed steel or carbon fiber blades that replace the user's fingernails or slide out from beneath synthetic nail replacements.
Hand Blades: Hand blades slip out of the side of the hand opposite the thumb, parallel to the hand.
Spurs: Spurs consist of a variable number of blades protruding from the user's wrist or knuckles.

I do not have arsenal, but no melee weapons in the BBB is similar to Hand Razors. If there is a claw weapon in Arsenal, that would indicate what skill would govern Hand Razors.

Further, I frequently see that region referred to as fingers, hand, and wrist in medical and health.

Anyway, I could never see Hand Razors governed under unarmed, but I can definitely see argument for them under Exotic Melee weapon.

Ok. Now compare with the description of Unarmed Combat. Then compare against which category of weapons hand razors slip into in SR4A. You will see what I mean, I'm sure.



That about sums my interpretation. At least the one I lean towards.

- J.

The arbitrary categories in SR don't make much sense to me sometimes. Weilding a Maul (Blunt) would require basically the same movements and manuevers as swinging an axe (Blades), but they require two different skills. Neither one has much in common with thrusting a rapier. I think melee skills would probably be more sensibly divided into Two-Handed (Polearms, Axes, Mauls, Staves) (and two-handed weapons should default to strength, not agility), One-Handed Heavy (Swords, Clubs), One-Handed Light (Knives), and Unarmed could include any weapons that were readily adaptible to an unarmed style including Shock Gloves, Brass Knuckles, Katar/Punch Daggars, and Cyber-Implant Melee Weapons.

Thoughts?

I honestly don't see what is so hard about this when the game itself tells you exactly how to play this. It's like asking whether or not you can use a pistol-gripped shotgun like a pistol, since you're trained in them (and the answer is no, in case you have problems thinking that one through). The game has an item, the game tells you what skill to use with said item. If you want to revert to "Rule 0," feel free to, but be aware that you are in fact invoking "Rule 0" and do not expect many other GMs to allow it.

Else, don't take a needed skill but take the unarmed skill a bit higher and then use that one for a slight malus in your dice-pool?
Also, Hand-BLADES are these little things that come out of the EDGE of your Hand.
Hand RAZORS are the things in the Fingertips.
SPURS are in the back of the hand/lower arm.

And in SR3, Razors were STR Light Physical Damage. But they had the improved Razors option, that made it STR+2 Light Physical Damage.
And in SR3, Blades were STR+3 Light Physical Damage.
And in SR3, Spurs were STR Medium Physical Damage.

And of course, all of those could be modified with Dikote for +1 Power and +1 Damage.

Dude. It's not a contest at all. "This skill is used for cyber-blades implanted in the hands or forearms." It does not get more clearly worded than that. As Neraph said, if you want to use a house rule in its stead, by all means do so. But the rules are very, very clear about which skill to use.

Agreed, but the case can be made for a house rule here since there are several martial arts styles that use slashing attacks of the hand to target soft tissue, which is what you're doing with most cyber blades, hell, I don't know about you but I'd be hesitant to go for a rib-shot with blades that are anchored to my fingerbones...

I'd be more likely to house rule "Cyber implant combat" in as a new skill under the close combat group then to switch the presented rules to use unarmed instead.

Is there no more defaulting in $R4.5?

You mean Exotic Melee Weapon?


Yes, SR4 has defaulting.

No, I mean Cyber Implant combat A-la 3rd ed - as in, with a quick cut/paste and edit from blade weapns skill above:

Cyber-Implant Combat (AGI)
This skill is used for cyber-blades and other melee weapons implanted in the hands or forearms, and in other areas of the body(or not, its a house rule and not even a house rule I use or would feel the need to use, if you want it not to apply to toe razors and to require an exotic skill for "odd location" impant weapons go nuts).

skill group it under close combat and still most people would (EDIT) not (/edit) buy close combat group

Nah, it has a lame rule that they call defaulting, but it's not defaulting. Defaulting is about using a related skill in place of the actual skill. What SR4 has is "if you don't have the exact skill required, roll Attribute -1 instead of Attribute + Skill regardless of any other related training you have." Whereas real defaulting would be more like "If you have Blades 5 but not Clubs, use your Blades skill at -2 in place of Clubs."

To throw some more fuel on this fire, under Unarmed Combat, it lists the specialization "Cyber-Implant". You can't implant a fist in your fist, so it must be talking about spurs, razors and the like.

Which makes sense because, basically, if you have a blade that's implanted alongside your fist, then you make a fist and throw a punch.
then the blade just happens to hit the target. but the movement is exactly the same.

Not necessarily. Read the text above the specialization:It could also mean the use of cyberlimb(s) or bone lacing in unarmed combat.

Or even use it as a defensive specialization when fighting unarmed against people with cyberimplants....

Since when do Shock Hands or BONES count as Cyber-Implant-Weapons?
Those have ALLWAYS been used with the regular UNARMED skill.
And since when are there specializations for purely defensive stuff?

Take a Look at Wolverine here. His Spurs extend from the back of his hands/between his knuckles.
Now if he extends them, he pierces. if he does not, the movement is exactly the same, but not piercing.

It's 4A, and worth every single $ it costs (a few more even, it's actually fairly cheap).





Shock HANDS not Shock GLOVES (the first is a cyber implant). And both do use the Unarmed Combat skill, actually.




I don't know... it didn't look like he was fist fighting when he used those in the movies.

Next thing you guys want is to use a Katar with Unarmed Combat?

Bye
Thanee

And to quell that argument you just have to read the description for Unarmed Combat. You could use the same specialization with Blades, in fact.

Again, the descriptions for those two skills are pretty specific. Blades covers bladed cyberware implanted in the hands, Unarmed Combat covers pretty much any other type of cyberware implanted in the hands, and Exotic Weapons covers all the really weird shit.

Which is why I am curious as to whether fingertips/fingers are considered part of the hand for the purposes of the blades skill. IMO, cyber implants should be their own skill since I can easily imagine fighting with implants would be combination of the implants being retracted and protracted while fighting, that the proper triggering of the implants would be just as important as the style itself.

Yes. Your fingers are considered part of your hand.

The Jews consider from your fingertips down to your elbows as part of your hand. I'm not helping much here, just saying.

Just to throw this out there, I fight with my punch daggers pretty much exactly as I do when I don't have them. I specifically bought short punch daggers for exactly that reason. Regarding Dahrken's statement, I would like to reference knifehand and spearhand techniques. Hand blades would simply expand the range of relevant targets for such techniques.

In real life, martial arts teach you to use similar movements with both weapons and your bare hands, and some weapons use the same movements despite one of them being sharp and one of them being blunt.

In Shadowrun, weapons are divided into pointy and bonky (and exotic weapons as the catchall for anything that doesn't fit neatly into the pointy or bonky category).

It's just like the Fichetti Executive Action [Light Pistol] and FN 5-7C [Machine Pistol]. Both are pistols, both have similar ammo capacities, both have exactly the same damage output, and (most importantly) both are SA/BF weapons. Yet one uses the Pistols skill while the other uses the Automatics skill. Oh and despite the descriptions, art, and even real life counterparts, the FN 5-7C is a monstrous weapon that makes a Desert Eagle look tiny (+2 Concealability) while the Fichetti is a tiny little mouse (-2 Concealability). Which, to this day, I still don't get.

As Glyph basically said, Shadowrun says "fuck you" to logic when it comes to which skill you use. It's pure, 100% CrunchyBits™ as Kerenshara likes to say.

same with Hand Razors and Climbig Claws.Its the same 'ware but You're using a totally different fighting Style

with a tottally different Dance
Medicineman

No, Dungeons and Dragons is "pure, 100% CrunchyBits™." Shadowrun still does have an extremely sandbox, freeform style of play, and often encourages the GM to make calls. D&D (3.5, not sure about 4th) has about a paragraph of GM-Call info for the entire 100+ books available. If it is not covered in the rules for D&D, you can't do it. If it is not covered in the rules for SR, default.

Not the same 'ware. Climbing claws are totally non-restricted and do not get the +1 damage. Well worth non-restricted gear.

BTW where does it say which skill is used with the climbing claws? I could be Exotic Melee Weapon or Unarmed.

It doesn't, but it does say that the implant is similar to hand razors, which would make it Blades (unarmed for you houserulers).

Is a claw a blade?

I think the distinction is in that most metahumans do not naturally have claws and therefor the action used to attack with them is more similar to armed combat, which is an arguable distinction from a martial arts perspective but not from a RAW perspective.